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08-07-2008, 12:14 AM
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#21 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,714
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Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God
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You mean to say that Krsna has no full control about what's happening in His material creation is a very valid point?  "So anything that is going on in this world, it is under the supreme supervision of the Lord. Mayadhyaksena prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. In every… There is a philosopher’s saying, “Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God.” It is actually the fact. Everything… Now, we have to dovetail ourself with that plan of the Supreme Lord. That is called karma-yoga. That is called karma-yoga. So Arjuna understood it, and he dovetailed himself with the supreme will of the Lord. And when he was inquired, “Whether you are going or fight or not? What you have settled after hearing Bhagavad-gita?” he said, “Yes Krishna. My illusion is now removed by Your grace, and I have decided to fight. That’s all.” Bhagavad-gītā 3.13-16 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda New York, May 23, 1966
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08-07-2008, 07:02 AM
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#22 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 50
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Quote:
Krsna says, "Not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of the Lord".
OK This is a very good point Suchandra prabhu. So how do we understand how free will fits in to all this? As a devotee of Lord Krsna the cause of all causes, you will understand this. Lord Balarama's expansion Maha-Vishnu is the creator of the maha-tattva or material world, He can see past present and future. He sees the journey of the arrow from where it begins, how it travels and where it ends. In the meantime however, the living entity experiences the reality of free will where everything to them to be NOT known on another their level of mundane time and space in the mahat-tattva. From the viewpoint of each embodied baddha-jiva trapped in the restricted material world, they DO experience free will WITHIN the material body they possess, ACCORDING to desire, and karma that may appear to them that the actions of man creates the wars and peace etc in the material world. However, on a higher level of understanding, everything is following a plan (the dreams of Maha Vishnu) that is known by Maha Vishnu and not known by the embodied jiva who enters His dreams and plays out those bodily roles, hence as Krsna says, "not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of the Lord". So the answer is, there is always free will for the marginal living entity to choose peace or war influenced and directed by their own desires and Karma that are experienced and lived out within vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu. Such 'vessels' are His creations and NOT the living entities, they manifested by Maha-Vishnu's dreams that are actually a real reality but are only temporary. Therefore, everything within the realm of past and future in the mahat-tattva is also known by the creator of the material creation, Maha Vishnu because they are His dreams (Who ultimately is an expansion of Lord Krsna, the cause of all causes) This is not easily understood but my point is we do originally have free will to love or serve Krsna or ignore Him and chase our own plans of grandeur If we choose to ignore Him, then we act out our desires within Maha Vishnu's stage drama of the material world, playing out a part or role that simultaneously suits our desires within His dreams.
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Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal".
Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973 |
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08-07-2008, 08:44 AM
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#23 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,714
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Quote:
Thanks Gauragopala dasa, as I understood the posts above, the question seemed that how the Supreme Lord can sanction that innocent people are getting punished? Let's say parents offered their kids a sandbox to play with, while sitting outside and watching their kids playing. They don't interfere in any way the playing/free will of their kids, just watching. As soon the parents find that the kids are not playing right they could immediately interfere, grab the kids and stop their playing. Now let's say the parents watch how their kids start to fight with each other but let it happen to see how far it goes. Do they not also become involved when not interering when seeing how a weaker child is beaten by a stronger child? They could stop the game but let it happen. So this was my point, we cannot blame God for allowing suffering to happen. If we watch in this world so called injustice taking place and Krsna Himself or the material energy, Krsna's agent, let it all happen, there's only one conclusion/answer, it's karma. There was no injustice, otherwise it could not have taken place, would have been baffled, crossed, blighted from begin with.
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08-07-2008, 11:52 AM
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#24 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: US
Posts: 4,657
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Quote:
If we say that there is never any injustice, it is all a reaction to past karma, than how is the NEW karma generated? Of course there are improper actions we witness in this world! and they will be punished in the future. |
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08-07-2008, 01:47 PM
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#25 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,714
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Quote:
So far I learned that new karma is not generated by inflicting suffering upon innocent people but by performing sinful activity. How someone who is innocent can face suffering/sinful reaction, it is impossible. This is not how karma works. As soon people accumulate huge amounts of sinful reactions due to sinful activity these sinful reactions have to burned up exempli gratia in an analog war. Especially in this age of kali-yuga, people perform unlimited sinful activities, so much so that we almost consider all this sinning as normal. According vedic authority, sinful actions are not dissolving, they are producing seeds, these seeds grow and when turning into fruits they become a visible karmic reaction. This can also happen collectively, a whole nation developing very similar accumulations of sinful karmas.  example how collective karmic reactions are build up: mass slaughter of chickens
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08-07-2008, 02:25 PM
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#26 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,714
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'2 US aircraft carriers headed for Gulf'
'2 US aircraft carriers headed for Gulf' Adam Gonn – Jerusalem Post August 7, 2008
Two additional United States naval aircraft carriers are heading to the Gulf and the Red Sea, according to the Kuwaiti newspaper Kuwait Times. Kuwait began finalizing its "emergency war plan" on being told the vessels were bound for the region.  The US Navy would neither confirm nor deny that carriers were en route. US Fifth Fleet Combined Maritime Command located in Bahrain said it could not comment due to what a spokesman termed "force-protection policy." While the Kuwaiti daily did not name the ships it believed were heading for the Middle East, The Media Line's defense analyst said they could be the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the U.S.S. Ronald Reagan. Within the last month, the Roosevelt completed an exercise along the US east coast focusing on communication among navies of different countries. It has since been declared ready for operational duties. The Reagan, currently with the Seventh Fleet, had just set sail from Japan. The Seventh Fleet area of operation stretches from the East Coast of Africa to the International Date Line. Meanwhile, the Arabic news agency Moheet reported at the end of July that an unnamed American destroyer, accompanied by two Israeli naval vessels traveled through the Suez Canal from the Mediterranean. A week earlier, a US nuclear submarine accompanied by a destroyer and a supply ship moved into the Mediterranean, according to Moheet. Currently there are two US naval battle groups operating in the Gulf: one is an aircraft carrier group, led by the USS Abraham Lincoln, which carries some 65 fighter aircraft. The other group is headed by the USS Peleliu which maintains a variety of planes and strike helicopters. The ship movements coincide with the latest downturn in relations between Washington and Teheran. The US and Iran are at odds over Iran's nuclear program, which the Bush administration claims is aimed at producing material for nuclear weapons; however, Teheran argues it is only for power generation. Kuwait, like other Arab countries in the Gulf, fears it will be caught in the middle should the US decide to launch an air strike against Iran if negotiations fail. The Kuwaitis are finalizing details of their security, humanitarian and vital services, the newspaper reported. The six members of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) - Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, the UAE and Oman - lie just across the Gulf from Iran. Generals in the Iranian military have repeatedly warned that American interests in the region would be targeted if Iran is subjected to any military strike by the US or its Western allies. Bahrain hosts the US Fifth Fleet, while there is a sizeable American base in Qatar. It is assumed the US also has military personnel in the other Gulf states, The Media Line's defense analyst said. Iran is thought to have intelligence operatives working in the GCC states, according to Dubai-based military analysts. The standoff between the US and Iran has left the Arab nations' political leaders in something of a bind, as they were being used as pawns by Washington and Teheran, according to The Media Line analyst. Iran has offered them economic and industrial sweeteners, while the US is boosting their defense capabilities. US President George W. Bush and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have paid visits to the GCC states in a bid to win their support. www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104233164&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
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08-07-2008, 02:44 PM
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#27 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Spokompton, WA
Posts: 482
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Tick tock tick tock
The countdown has already started. But it will be after the November election, and b4 January 20th. Buh-bye IRAN, and payback for the hostage crisis FINALLY!
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Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library
"The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without and multiplying from within." --- Will Durant, The Story of Civilization |
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08-07-2008, 07:13 PM
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#28 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 187
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Yup, somethin' like this could become WW-III. Let's hope that enough relevant people see this also..
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I'm not my body, I'm my free will, possibly..
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08-08-2008, 06:01 AM
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#29 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 221
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Quote:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=bmysVoRBgyA
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A Vaishnava who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. A devotee who accepts evil without protest is really cooperating with it. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere
The ultimate measure of a devotee is not where one stands in moments of comfort, but where one stands at times of challenge and controversy. Hate cannot drive out hate from the heart; only Krsna Consciousness can do that. |
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08-08-2008, 07:12 AM
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#30 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: US
Posts: 4,657
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Quote:
You should first read about America's involvement in Iran prior to the hostage crisis. If the criminals in US government did not topple the legitimate government of Iran to instal their puppet shah, there would have been no hostage crisis. Only simpletons with no memory and no imagination can cheer the corrupt warmongering of the demonic leaders. |
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08-08-2008, 09:36 AM
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#31 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Spokompton, WA
Posts: 482
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And only idiots
and self-hating Americans are ignorant to the threat that Iranians and like-minded Jew haters are to the World at large. But, everything is going according to Mahaprabhu's Divine Plans, and NO ONE can stop this sankirtan movement. There will be chanting in EVERY town and village, and that will happen when the demons in Riyadh and Tehran are deposed. 
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Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library
"The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without and multiplying from within." --- Will Durant, The Story of Civilization |
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08-08-2008, 10:55 AM
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#32 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: US
Posts: 4,657
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Quote:
Sure, first you start a fight and then you complain that your victim is hitting you back. How typical... You reap what you sow. The only thing stopping Lord Caitanya's movement are crooks and liars using it for their own material benefit. Do you see chanting in EVERY town and village here in US? No. Are the 'bad Muslims' stopping you? No. So what is the basic malfunction here, soldier? The same crooks and liars in and outside our movement who tell you to support the war and murder of innocent people in the name of world peace and security for Israel. Our movement has been turned by them into a fraud. Lord Caitanya's movement is not spread with guns and bombs. Lord Caitanya showed us how to deal with Muslims, using peaceful harinama and philosophy. We use His methods, not those imported from Old Testament. |
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08-08-2008, 11:49 AM
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#33 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,714
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Quote:
Encyclopaedia Judaica estimated the number of Jews in Iran at 25,000 in 1996. So how can they attack Iran and kill their own people?
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08-08-2008, 12:20 PM
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#34 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 221
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A Vaishnava who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. A devotee who accepts evil without protest is really cooperating with it. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere
The ultimate measure of a devotee is not where one stands in moments of comfort, but where one stands at times of challenge and controversy. Hate cannot drive out hate from the heart; only Krsna Consciousness can do that. |
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