varnashrama-dharma

cbrahma · 10-09-2007, 04:58 AM

I don't 'get' this system. It is a hierachy of power, positions and distinctions that has resulted in nothing but the prejudice and exploitation of a caste system.
If one already has a tendency to lord over others, how does participating in a power hierarchy bring one to the point of equal vision - sama-darshana?

theist · 10-09-2007, 10:40 AM

In it's proper conception it is merely a way of conducting an orderly society. In any assembly of a hundred people picked randomly off the street you will find bascially four distinct pyscho/physical types with various combinations according to the individual.

Intellectuals,academics, priestly pious types etc.

Administartors, soldiers policeman, those with a protectice spirit towards others.

Merchantile types, business owners, landowners, people who are always seeing a way to make a buck.

Laborer types, who are not so inclined in the above ways and are happy working under the direction of others who put in their time at work and then forget about it until the next day when they do it again.

So it makes sense that a society would run best with the spiritualized intellectuals leading the way and everyone working under the protection of the adminstrators who kept an orderly and safe society and where the mercantile class good engage in commerce and the distribution of food cloth and other necessities and providing full employment for the worker class.

These four types are with us now even in western societies but it is working in the wrong order. In America we have the pious intellectual types not being listened to by the protectice class. What we have is the so-called protectice class taking direction from the mercantile class(Big Corp.'s) and exploiting the laborer class and everyone else for as much profit as possible.

So the lack of a proper varnashrama sustem has only lead to more exploitation not less. You are right that a formal system of varnashrama would also be exploited. It is just the nature of this age. But the absence of varnashrama does not guaruntee freedom from exploitation either.

That said I don't consider the attempt to formally re-establish such a system in this present atmosphere to be even remotely practical.

theist · 10-09-2007, 10:44 AM

TRANSLATION Bg 4.13
According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

PURPORT
The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brahmanas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kshatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaisyas, are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the sudras, or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Krishna does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Krishna consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to the different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Krishna consciousness, however, is above even the brahmanas. Although brahmanas by quality are supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth, most of them approach only the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Krishna. But a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brahmana and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, becomes a person in Krishna consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaishnava. Krishna consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Krishna, namely Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, etc. And as Krishna is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Krishna consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species.

cbrahma · 10-09-2007, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theist

In it's proper conception it is merely a way of conducting an orderly society. In any assembly of a hundred people picked randomly off the street you will find bascially four distinct pyscho/physical types with various combinations according to the individual.

Intellectuals,academics, priestly pious types etc.

Administartors, soldiers policeman, those with a protectice spirit towards others.

Merchantile types, business owners, landowners, people who are always seeing a way to make a buck.

Laborer types, who are not so inclined in the above ways and are happy working under the direction of others who put in their time at work and then forget about it until the next day when they do it again.

So it makes sense that a society would run best with the spiritualized intellectuals leading the way and everyone working under the protection of the adminstrators who kept an orderly and safe society and where the mercantile class good engage in commerce and the distribution of food cloth and other necessities and providing full employment for the worker class.

These four types are with us now even in western societies but it is working in the wrong order. In America we have the pious intellectual types not being listened to by the protectice class. What we have is the so-called protectice class taking direction from the mercantile class(Big Corp.'s) and exploiting the laborer class and everyone else for as much profit as possible.

So the lack of a proper varnashrama sustem has only lead to more exploitation not less. You are right that a formal system of varnashrama would also be exploited. It is just the nature of this age. But the absence of varnashrama does not guaruntee freedom from exploitation either.

That said I don't consider the attempt to formally re-establish such a system in this present atmosphere to be even remotely practical.

Intellectuals don't automatically run things. That's was Plato's dream.
The Reality is that we have morons like Bush.
Right and boys are celibate and old men renounce the world.

Murali_Mohan_das · 10-09-2007, 05:06 PM

Koyaanisqatsi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koyaanisqatsi

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrahma

Intellectuals don't automatically run things. That's was Plato's dream.
The Reality is that we have morons like Bush.
Right and boys are celibate and old men renounce the world.

theist · 10-09-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrahma

Intellectuals don't automatically run things. That's was Plato's dream.
The Reality is that we have morons like Bush.
Right and boys are celibate and old men renounce the world.

And your point is what?

cbrahma · 10-10-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theist

And your point is what?

That, for a natural god appointed system, it isn't anywhere to be found.

theist · 10-10-2007, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theist
And your point is what?

That, for a natural god appointed system, it isn't anywhere to be found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theist

TRANSLATION Bg 4.13
According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

PURPORT
The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brahmanas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kshatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaisyas, are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the sudras, or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Krishna does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Krishna consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to the different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Krishna consciousness, however, is above even the brahmanas. Although brahmanas by quality are supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth, most of them approach only the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Krishna. But a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brahmana and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, becomes a person in Krishna consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaishnava. Krishna consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Krishna, namely Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, etc. And as Krishna is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Krishna consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species.

cbrahma · 10-10-2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theist
TRANSLATION Bg 4.13
According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

PURPORT
The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brahmanas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kshatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaisyas, are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the sudras, or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Krishna does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the above-mentioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Krishna consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to the different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Krishna consciousness, however, is above even the brahmanas. Although brahmanas by quality are supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth, most of them approach only the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Krishna. But a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brahmana and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, becomes a person in Krishna consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaishnava. Krishna consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Krishna, namely Rama, Nrisimha, Varaha, etc. And as Krishna is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Krishna consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species.

Which flies in the face of the facts of experience. Where it has been weakly implemented one finds so much deviation. All the problems in ISKCON can be directly tied to the authoritarian hierarchy which varnashrama dharma dictates. The quoted verse can't possibly settle it. There has to be more to this explanation.

theist · 10-10-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Which flies in the face of the facts of experience. Where it has been weakly implemented one finds so much deviation. All the problems in ISKCON can be directly tied to the authoritarian hierarchy which varnashrama dharma dictates. The quoted verse can't possibly settle it. There has to be more to this explanation.

Use your own intelligence a little. Nobody said Iskcon was the perfect model of varnashrama or anything else. Why do you run everthing through an Iskcon filter in your mind? Do you think Krsna was describing Iskcon when he was speaking Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna? No He wasn't. So why do you think you must relate everything He said to Iskcon as you hear it?

Murali_Mohan_das · 10-10-2007, 03:11 PM

How vast is our experience? How limited?

Koyaanisqatsi means "Life out of balance" or "A state of life that calls for another way of living".

We are living in Kali Yuga, when nearly *everything* good and holy has become perverted and corrupted.

Scripture tells of us different times when life was *in* balance and society was able to function in a harmonious fashion. Scripture tells us that those days of milk and honey will come again after a partial dissolution (at the end of the Age of Kali).

By the mercy of the Lord, the Movement of Mahaprabhu may flood the world with Love of God and usher in a new Golden Era *at any time*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrahma

Which flies in the face of the facts of experience. Where it has been weakly implemented one finds so much deviation. All the problems in ISKCON can be directly tied to the authoritarian hierarchy which varnashrama dharma dictates. The quoted verse can't possibly settle it. There has to be more to this explanation.

cbrahma · 10-10-2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theist

Use your own intelligence a little. Nobody said Iskcon was the perfect model of varnashrama or anything else. Why do you run everthing through an Iskcon filter in your mind? Do you think Krsna was describing Iskcon when he was speaking Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna? No He wasn't. So why do you think you must relate everything He said to Iskcon as you hear it?

I'm not seeing ISKCON as the model. But it's the ony instance of that experiment. In India it corrupted to a closed family based caste system.
Why does ISKCON insist on its twisted version of it?

mahak · 10-10-2007, 05:06 PM

VAD is a natural positioning. The only thing needed is acknowledgement of that which is already naturally there. Otherwise, there is but contrivance, and thios is where the problem lies, whether it is the perverted reflection of VAD (i.e. caste system) or the latest in a series of concoctions by the organized religion that bears the name of Srila Prabhupada.

If you take thirty random people, and land them safely without any way of leaving a desert island, something will give. Even the story of the Lord of the Flies, as ghastly as that one was, the natural VAD formed. There will be a spiritual advisor in the group, a natural leader, money folk and those who produce valuables, ie gems, trade currency, food. And there will be natural workers. No big eastern philosophy is needed for any of this, this is why I have has flac before by disregarding spiritual significance of VAD. VAD is there, acceptance of the natural order of things isa the only education needed, even in post-armageddon mudlife.

Not the contrivance is the problem. There is always envious lowlifes below sidras who dont do labor, have no spiritual insight, have no money or admin skills, but they end up taking over, controlling lives. Caste was a great way for Britain to control India. ISKCON may use this to dominate the devoptees as well. The devotee has to decide, then rid himself of false domination by the unqualified.

Gotta run, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

sevabhakta · 10-10-2007, 05:07 PM

His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had the potency, and the prescription, for the only form of Varnasrama Dharma which is even possible for a group of people to manifest amongst this demonically civilized society in Kali Yuga.

His carefully outlined and detailed plan was given to his disciples to implement DAIVI Varnasrama Dharma. With an emphasis on Yukta Vairagya within the Harinama Sankirtana Mission.

He shared his wisdom regarding how to take any person, from any age group, and conditioning from any walk of life, and engage them in some meaningful way in the Sankirtana Movement/Iskcon society.

Only by their free will was any instruction followed and this is how it shall ever be.

His prescription for how each local temple was to function toward the goal of perpetuating local harinamas, prasadam and book distribution, regular temple worship programs, and the integration of the grhasta ashrama via independent farm communities, is still a blueprint for anyone to follow.

Those who can represent Srila Prabhupada's conclusions on how to execute such a locally organized Sankirtana Yajna, have the greatest and only chance of sprouting the seed of Daivi Varnasrama Dharma, while the rest of the population of the planet wallows in Sahajism, Impersonalism, Voidism, and Sub-Human religious fanaticism.

Hare Krsna

theist · 10-10-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrahma

I'm not seeing ISKCON as the model. But it's the ony instance of that experiment. In India it corrupted to a closed family based caste system.
Why does ISKCON insist on its twisted version of it?

I don't know what Iskcon insists on. I have no idea nor do I care. The varnashram system exists quite apart from Iskcon. Now it may exist only as thing of history or in conceptual form. It may be corrupted in India and Iskcon but why bring Iskcon into it? Are you a member of Iskcon? If so I can see why you might be concerned but I would suggest don't spend time on analyzing failures, rather learn about what works and then apply that to your life.

The formality of a varnashram system is highly impractical today IMO. I think it wise though to try to extract the essence of it and apply what we can to our daily lives.

For example you don't need to wear a kaupin to be brahmacari. You do however need to be celibate and disciplined.

And as far as the varnas go, our lives will run smoother if we learn somethng of our own acquired natures under the modes of nature and work within the general outline of those modes. To discover and follow our own path. Arjuna wanted to leave the battlefield and renounce but Krsna told Arjuna "To follow anothers path is dangerous."

"What danger?", we may ask. Consider someone with brahmnical tendancies who by pressure from his parents and society to become rich and successful suppresses his inner attraction to the priesthood where he would be living in poverty, studying religious texts all day and worshiping God. Pressure has him using his intelligence to acquire a law degree, seek employment from a top firm, buy a luxury house, get married and so forth.

Even if he becomes a first class lawyer he will never be happy because he has perverted his own sva-dharma from striving inwardly towards the Divine to the outward land of illusory sense perception and acquisition.

The brahmana has no business on the battlefield whereas the warrior has no business imitating a monk.

Varnashrama made it so much easier for each person to find his place within social structure. Today our position is so much harder and we have to compromise so often.

If we look at varanashram objectively we can only marvel at the intelligence that laid this all out.

In varnashram we can see the perfection of social and political science, pyschology, and spiritual life all rolled into one. Look at it free from the thoughts of the failed attempts we see around us and I am sure you will be amazed.

But we can't live in the past so let's grab as much essence as we can and struggle on towards Krsna and have faith that He will carry what we lack.