Is Saivism the Oldest Hindu denomination?

06-25-2005, 12:35 PM

Is Saivism really the oldest Hindu denomination? Is Shiva worship pre-dating the worship of other gods? Some believe the inhabitants of the Indus Valley to be worshippers of Shiva, not the Vedas. Do you think Saivite worship is older than the Vedas?

According to Wikipedia, Saivism is the oldest denomination of Hinduism and Saiva Siddhanta the oldest sect of Saivism and says even the Sages Patanjali and Vasishtha were Saivites. What do you think and why? Is this true or not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_sects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saivism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiva_Siddhanta

06-25-2005, 05:53 PM

"Is Saivism the Oldest Hindu denomination?"

maybe for hinduism, but not for sanatana dharma

the worship of vishnu/krsna and shiva are both eternal

06-25-2005, 08:51 PM

its not eternal if you are talking about among the human race...the human race is a constinously evolving species that HAS a definitive starting point. IT wasnt until much laer that we started worshipping Vishnu. We had to realize that Vishnu was there before we start worshipping him.

If your talking about in the history of the universe, then probably is eternal. I do believe taht among the trillions of planets around the trillions of stars out there just like the earth and the sun, there must be one (personally i think alot more) conscious beings. These beings, in their own way using their own words, probably worship the being we refer to as Vishnu. In this stance, it is eternal

06-25-2005, 10:55 PM

if you accept Sri Vishnu or Sri Shiva as divine and worshipable, you also accept the spiritual science that comes from them

vedic scriptures say that everything is eternal, the material world and human race is also eternal and it goes thru cyclical creations and destructions

in this material universe, everyone loves and worships eternally Sri Vishnu/krsna and Sri Shiva, with relatively little intervals, called kali yuga, where religion heavily declines almost disappearing

that's vedas

06-25-2005, 11:13 PM

but the yugas are very long periods of time. If we take a conservative approach and start from the dawn of homo sapians ( ) there couldnt have been that many cycles passed. Therefore, if we are talking about humans beings when we say shiva worship or vishnu worship is eternal, then it can only be from the dawn of humanity. There is no evidence anyone has that animals worship any beings. An intelligent animal is needed for that.

But i do agree, that the statements in the Vedas are correct. If one believes in the existace of other life forms on other planets in the vast universe, then it is very possible that they too worship some form of Brahman which we call by the names Vishnu or Shiva or anythign else. Somewhere in the infinite space of God, there are others who worship him somewhere out there at all times, therefore vishnu/shiva is being worshipped eternally

06-26-2005, 04:42 AM

But i do agree, that the statements in the Vedas are correct.
--so vedas never say that in the earth human race disappears or it is absent. So all cults and worships are eternal. like all deities are eternal and they come eternally to save us from material bondage

06-26-2005, 02:13 PM

I'm simply asking is the worship of Shiva is the oldest we know about in India. This is not a thread to say which of the devas are better or which one is supreme and which is subordinate. I'm talking about which god or deva has the oldest worship in India historically!

Is it the Vedic devas such as Indra, Agni, Vayu, Mitra, etc or was it Shiva worship, be it through another name or was it something else? I have heard people say that Shiva is India's oldest god, but where is the evidence? Wasn't the Vedas before Shiva worship? If I'm correct the Vedas talk of Rudra whci later became identified as Shiva and when shiva is mentioned in the vedas it means auspisciousness not referring to shiva the mahadeva.

What do you think?

Another thing is what is the difference between Hinduism and Sanatana Dharma? I thought they were the same, but Hinduism is the name of what the westeners called Sanatana Dharma, in the same way Indians referred to muslims as Mohameddans, even they called themselves muslims or islamic.

BinduMadhav · 06-26-2005, 03:26 PM

Vaishnavism is the oldest tradition belonging to the true Sanatana Dharma. The Saivite traditions are NOT the oldest ones.

But that asides, the truly significant question is which is the best tradition. Not the oldest. Most Hindus agree that the worship of Lord Krishna Vasudeva is the best tradition.

06-26-2005, 04:32 PM

"I'm simply asking is the worship of Shiva is the oldest we know about in India"

sanatana dharma is eternal
bharata varsa is eternal

being sanatana dharma ETERNALLY comprensive of the worship of vishnu and shiva, it is evident that at the moment when the muslims have given that names "india" and "hinduism" to bharata varsa and to sanatana dharma, everything was already there

where's the difficulty?

06-27-2005, 01:51 AM

Guest, It seems you're just trying to avoid the question and doing a bad job at it too.

You're saying that Sanatana dharma is eternal, well explain by what YOU mean by Sanatana Dharma. Within Hinduism there is worship of different devas and I'm asking which one was the oldest worship we know of - to see which one has really stood the test of time. For example Ganesh worship we know came much later, so it cannot be Ganesh worship.

At least BinduMadhav answered my question according to his opinions. Now tell me is there any proof that Vaishnava traditions are the oldest? And out of all the Vaishnava traditions which sect is the oldest?
Also as you said worship of Lord Krishna is the best, but can you tell me the reason why?

06-27-2005, 04:28 AM

You're saying that Sanatana dharma is eternal, well explain by what YOU mean by Sanatana Dharma.
--sanatana dharma is the religion coming from vedas. Vedas are eternal because god gives them eternally at every creation, so sanatana dharma is eternal with all his variety

Within Hinduism there is worship of different devas and I'm asking which one was the oldest worship we know
--speaking of oldest of newer about sanatana dharma you are simply negating his essence. Sanatana means eternal, if you think that is not eternal you are negating it. Now, if you want to consider the birth of the word hinduism, the word hinduism yes, it has a birth by muslim invaders, but being dharma already there, hinduism has not created any cult

For example Ganesh worship we know came much later
--i do not know this "much later". I know that sri ganesha is eternally a worshipable deity.. for dharma. From materialistic point of view, you can say everything. To understand what position is right, we have to practice the darma according his rules and philosophy, then, we will check it if he's right/saint/divine/eternal or not

At least BinduMadhav answered my question according to his opinions.
--and our brother bindu madhav (i am a practitioner of vaishnavism too) is wrong, because all deities are eternal and they are recognized eternally as worshipable by saints, gurus and rishis. If he beliefs that vaishnavism has a starting point, he's going against bhagavad gita and the parampara concept,,
Then we can go together to vrindavan and we can see that even in the houses of krsna and his associates (5000 years ago) there was many deities.. included shiva and shiva lingam. Then we'll read the gita spoken in kuruksetra battle (5000 yrs ago), who clearly speaks of deva's worship

Also as you said worship of Lord Krishna is the best, but can you tell me the reason why?
--the best is not exact, i can say that it is more recommended to worship the lord than a deity who is a servant of the lord.. also because this deity , being himself a devotee of the lord, is interested to make you worship the object of his pure and intense love.
A devotee is not envious and searching for being worshipped separately from the lord..

And when we please the lord , we please all devas

but... if one is worshipping his deity without putting his worship in comparison with god worship, without avversion and envy, and his intentions are to achieve spiritual realization, not money, health or othe material advantages....... there's no problem.. he will directly or indirectly find the transcendence

that's the principle... not that something is more ancient than something else

06-27-2005, 08:25 AM

**********Vaishnavism is the oldest tradition belonging to the true Sanatana Dharma. The Saivite traditions are NOT the oldest ones.

But that asides, the truly significant question is which is the best tradition. Not the oldest. Most Hindus agree that the worship of Lord Krishna Vasudeva is the best tradition. *********

Just dont give empty statements. Even in Rig Vedic times, Vaishnavism was not a major cult. People were just nature worshippers.

However, archeologically, excavations show that Indus valley people worshipped shiva.

So, even as per the literatures, and archeological facts, shaivism is older by all means.

06-27-2005, 01:16 PM

Ah thank you, at last we have someone here willing to have a proper discussion.

Let me say that I am not prejudiced against any sect, I'm just interested in the evolution of Hinduism and am aware that it has changed with the ages as also the deities.

There are those who believe in AIT who think the Vedic gods and gods like Shiva are from two different civilisations, which I don't believe but it could be in ancient times there were many different sects all over India that started seperate and later combined in the family of faiths we now call Hinduism. They must've agreed on common ground like Reincarnation, the 4 yogas, law of karma, etc.

If Shiva is such and ancient god then why was he not mentioned in the Vedas? It is said he is the same as Rudra...but there are 11 Rudras and could it be that if the vedic people mixed with the Saivites that as Rudra was the destroyer god for them that Shiva and Rudra got merged as the same god? Maybe Pashupati was an Indus valley god that was later merged with shiva and became another name for Shiva. Brahma was not in the Vedas either but the creator god was Prajapati. It is only in the Puranas which came later that the deities we worship today came about.

{Even in Rig Vedic times, Vaishnavism was not a major cult. People were just nature worshippers.}

It is true that they were nature worshippers and even though Vishnu was mentioned in the Vedas, he wasn't a major deity like Indra and Agni, he was equated with the Sun as Surya-Narayana.

Nitairam · 06-27-2005, 05:47 PM

Hare Krishna

In the Srimad Bhagavatam (amalam puranam) it is described that when Lord Brahma was born from the navel of Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, he did not know what to do and what is the purpose of his existence. Hearing a voice from the sky saying 'tapa' he understood that he should sit in meditation on Lord Vishnu. Thus according to the Srimad Bhagavatam the first worship in this universe was Vishnu worship. Other consideration is that the worship of Vishnu on the innumerable Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky and worship of Siva in Kailash are actually eternally going on. We can remark here that the worshippers of Vishnu are in greater number since there are unlimited Vaikuntha planets compared to one supreme planet of Lord Siva the Kailash - the place of Siva worship.

Please chant Hare Krishna and be happy

Nitai

06-28-2005, 03:33 AM

I think I am kinda wathcing a scooby doo cartoon with all the fools fighting with each other about who's the best. If I were to ask Krishna or Rama or Agastiyar, they would all laughed out at you people all running around like a wild pig still ignorant of your personal goals.I believe and I sincerely believe that India will one day perish after being hit by meteorite and all those people in India ( very cruel and violent by nature)melt like a volcanic pie and there will be no hypocrite of caste or creed.Damn you!Damn Vaishnava Damn Saivite.Damn India.

06-28-2005, 04:07 AM

Ask yourself this question, why there are so many sufferings and people dying in India (both violently and horribly treated)and why are there so many folly gurus and fighting among factions in hinduism.Because you people in India will never learn how to forgive and take the good part in other people, always craving for your status(caste).

06-28-2005, 09:00 AM

Be ware of what u speak Mr.Guest....i know u are the same person who has appeared under the name 'John Cougar'.......... do u think the ppl of the west dont fight? it was the west which was power hungry and blood hungry....even now they attack countires for lame excuses...the sunny muslims fight the siya muslims....the christians fight against all the other religions in their own way..........

As a devotee of Shiva i know how to respect the differences in other fellow humanbeings......hold ur toung or u shall fall under the grave pit of 'miss talks'

i might not support Bindhu's view point but as a Indian i will support him to all extent.....before u ask bindhu to look around it is only fitting that u look around urself....dont u dare next time to talk ill of my country and my fellow country men....

06-28-2005, 09:44 AM

Keep it up. Even if we have differences, we should support each other when outsiders attack. Yudhistra's advice is still relevant.

Nitairam · 06-28-2005, 10:44 AM

Hare Krishna

Interesting opinions. Your damning is coming from anger. One who is angry is violent, lusty, greedy, in illusion, atheistic animal. Or even if you have some type of religion it is the cheating religion practicing envy to others desiring to destroy others, having demoniac superiority complex, big ahankar.

All these are symptoms of a person in deep ignorance. I am just wandering what you are doing here in this conference where religious life supposed to be cultivated. You are like a big Ravana-like demon. But anyway there is hope for everybody. Let Krishna bless you smashing your big ahankar to pieces.

Please chant Hare Krishna and be happy

BinduMadhav · 06-28-2005, 01:51 PM

{Damn India.}

With this, you have gone too far. Now I know where you come from!

But I don't understand the irrational enragement. I argue with other Saivites about whether Siva is supreme according to scriptures or Vishnu is supreme. In what way does that hurt you? Why do you have to say 'Damn Saivite'? What have the Saivites done to you?

All right, assuming that you would ask Rama, Krishna and Agastya, about which is the oldest tradition - Saivite or Vaishnavite, they would probably give different answers. And then what?

Do you know that there is such a great concept as diversity?

Let's celebrate our diversity. But at the same time, let's continue to argue. When it is time to take action, let's forget our arguments and plunge into action.

Against a possible Paki amidst the Hindu Forum.