Gayatri Mantra and knowledge

[Puru_Das 0]

Earlier in the thread Shiva remarked:

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja has written a translation and commentary to the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu in such a way that it is difficult to know where translation ends and commentary begins and it is difficult to know how precise the translation is because there is no word for word.

If one had no faith or trust in Srila Prabhupada then one could conceivably criticise his Summary study of the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, The Nectar of Devotion for the same reason.

" it is difficult to know how precise the translation is because there is no word for word."

Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja's translation of BRS

http://bvml.org/SHBM/index.htm

contains the original sanksrit slokas with word for word translations, but Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Nectar of Devotion is completely in English without even one single verse offered in deva nagari or directly translated from the original shastra by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

Regardless, the publishers of Srila Narayana Maharja's translation of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindh-bindu have done their best to explain the format of the translation and commentary despite the opinion that

Srila Narayana Maharaja has written a translation and commentary to the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu in such a way that it is difficult to know where translation ends and commentary begins

Introduction

Srî Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu, a drop of the nectarean

ocean of devotional mellows, is a brief summary of the essential

topics from Srî Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu. It consists of twenty-seven

verses, some of which were taken from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu,

but most of which were written by Srîla Visvanåtha Cakravartî

Thåkura in Sanskrit. Our esteemed Srîla Gurudeva, Om Visnuupåda

paramahamsa parivråjakåcårya astottara-sata Srî Srîmad

Bhaktivedånta Nåråyana Mahåråja, has given an illuminating

translation of these verses into Hindi.

His translation and commentary is named Srî Bindu-vikåsinî-vrtti, or the commentary that reveals the meaning of Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu.

In this commentary he has expanded the subject matter by including Srîla

Cakravartipåda’s own commentary to the verses that were taken from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu. He has also drawn additional material from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu and relevant verses from Srîmad-Bhågavatam, Srî Caitanya-caritåmrta, Hari-bhakti-vilåsa, Bhaktisandarbha and other scriptures. In addition, he has made very significant comments to facilitate comprehension of the subject matter.

Some of these comments were footnotes to his original Hindi commentary and others were spoken by him in English. These comments are identified in this edition simply as “Comment”. The end of such comments are indicated by a lotus flower symbol, at which point the text returns to the translation of Srîla Gurudeva’s Bindu-vikåsinî commentary.

 

The first English edition of Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu was

published in April 1996, just before Srîla Gurudeva’s first preaching

tour of Western countries. In this second edition several improvements have been made to help the reader assimilate the material. First, the presentation of the material has been made simpler and more direct. Secondly, the typography throughout has been made consistent and the layout has been brought up to a professional standard. Thirdly, the text has been lightly edited in places to improve its clarity.

 

In the first edition of this book, the sequence of Verses 22­-5 was

changed from Srila Cakravartipada’s original sequence in order to

accommodate the additional material taken from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu.

In this second edition we have changed one of those verses

back to reflect the author’s original sequence, but we left three still

differing from it. This has been done to ensure that, in light of the

abundance of material added from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, the

subject matter is presented to the reader in the most logical and

effective manner.

Further, the explanations of the primary and secondary rasas

found in the second half of the book are in places rather intricate.

To aid comprehension of these topics, the reader is advised to refer

back as needed to the chart entitled “Components of bhakti-rasa”

on p. 151.

Finally, we would like to briefly mention the contribution made to our

sampradaya in the modern era by nitya-lila-pravista om visnupada astottara-sata Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Single-handedly, and in a relatively short span of time, he introduced the science of Krsna-bhakti to the English speaking world. He was an intimate friend of Srila Gurudeva, and in 1972 he published an excellent summary study of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu entitled Nectar of Devotion. Praying that this

current work be pleasing to both Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada, we are confident that it will be appreciated by devotees who are eager to taste a drop of the nectarean ocean of

bhakti-rasa.

Aspirants for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas,

Prema-vilasa dasa / Lava∫ga-lata dasi

Moksada Ekadasi

15th December, 2002

Gopinatha-bhavana, Sri Vrndavana

xvi

A free download of this book is available here:

http://bvml.org/SBNM/books/index.html

[Puru_Das 0]

And exerpt from Brsb to illustrate format explained in introduction,

 

some translation and commentary re mantra

Verse 4

The Sixty-four Limbs of Bhajana

atha bhajanasya catuh-sas†ir angani

sri-guru-padasraya˙, sri-krsna-diksa-siksadi, sri-guru-seva,

sadhu-marganusara˙, bhajana-riti-prasnah˙, sri-krsna-pritaye

bhogadi-tyaga˙, tirtha-vasah˙ tirtha-mahatmya-sravanam ca, sva-bhakti-

nirvahanurupa-bhojanadi-svikaram, ekadas-vratam,

asvattha-tulasi-dhatri-go-brahmana-vaisnava-sammanam ­ purvadaca-grahanam.

para-dasa-tyaga-- ­asadhu-sanga-tyagah˙, bahu-sisya-karana-tyaga, bahu-arambha-tyagah, bahu-sastra-vyakhya-vivadadi-tyaga, vyavahare karpa√ya-tyaga˙, coka-krodhadi-tyagah,

devatantara-ninda-tyagah, pranimatre udvega-tyagah,

sevaparadha-namaparadha-tyagah, guru-krsna-bhakta-ninda-sahana-tyaga˙.

vaisnava-cihna-dharanam, harinamaksara-dharanam,

nirmalya-dharanam, nrtyam, dandavat-pranamam,

abhyutthanam, anuvrajya, sri-murti-sthane gamanaμ, parikrama,

puja, paricarya, gitam, sa∫kirtanam, japa˙, stava-patha˙, mahaprasada-

seva, vijnapti˙, caranamrta-panam, dhupa-malyadi-saurabha-

grahanam, sri-murti-darsanam, sri-murti-sparcanam,

aratrika-darsanam, sravanam, tat-krpapeksanam, smaranam,

dhyanam, dasyam, sakhyam, atma-nivedanam, nija-priya-vastu-samarpanam

krsnarthe samasta-karma-karanam

sarvatha saranapatti˙, tulasi-seva, vaisnava-sastra-seva,

mathura-mandale vasah, vaisnava-seva, yatha-sakti doladi-mahotsava-karanam, karttika-vratam, sarvada harinama-grahamnam- janmastami-yatradikam ca evaμ unasasti bhakty

angani; atha tatra panca angani sarvath˙ sresthani yatha ­ srimurti-

seva-kausalam, rasikaih saha sri-bhagavatarthasvada˙,

sajatiya-snigdha-mahattara-sadhu-sangah, nama-sankirtanam sri-vrndavana-vasa˙ evam militva catuh˙-sasty angani.

 

Beginning of Translation and Commentary by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja of Verse 4.

 

 

Sri Bindu-vikasini-vrtti

 

 

(1) Sri-guru-padasraya

 

Taking shelter at the lotus feet of Sri Guru

 

 

"In all the scriptures that promote bhakti the unlimited glories of Sri Guru have been described. Without taking shelter at the lotus feet of a sad-guru it is impossible to enter into the realm of bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore, out of all the limbs of bhakti, sadguru-padacraya has been cited first. It is the duty of all faithful persons who have a desire for bhagavad-bhakti to take shelter at the lotus feet of a spiritual master who is a genuine preceptor of the sastras expounding the glories of Bhagavan and who is expert in understanding and explaining the mantras describing Bhagavan. All anarthas are easily removed only by the mercy of such a genuine spiritual master and thus one also obtains the supreme favour of Bhagavan. By the mercy of Sri Guru all anarthas are easily destroyed. Srila Jiva Gosvami has demonstrated this in his Bhakti-sandarbha ( Anuccheda 237) by citing the evidence of various sastras. He has explained this by the statement of Brahmaji as well:

 

yo mantra˙sa guru˙ saksat

yo guru˙sa hari˙svayam

gurur yasya bhavet tustas

 

tasya tusto hari˙ svayam

 

The mantra(which is given by the guru) is itself the guru, and the guru is directly the Supreme Lord Hari. He upon whom the

spiritual master is pleased also obtains the pleasure of Sri Hari

Himself.

Comment

The gurus internal, spiritual mood of service to Sri Radhika and Krsna is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of a mantra .Everything is given in seed form within the mantra. At first the discple will not be able to understand, but by performing sadhana and bhajana under the guidance of Sri Gurudeva and by meditating on the mantra given by him, gradually everything will be revealed. Therefore, it is said here that the mantra is the direct representation of Sri Gurudeva.. . . "

 

pp.42-112 offer similar translation and commentary on the next 63 angas of bhakti. It is clear enough that the original slokas are from Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and the rest is a compilation of other references, shastras and observations by SBVNM. We are sorry if this book displeases anyone, but what can be done. Everyone is welcome to examine it on their own and make their own assessment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"My perfection is in following the teachings/orders of my Spiritual Master"

[shiva 0]

Puru I was refering to the post that someone made. Here was my point. This was the section of the book that the person quoted from. First the translated verse:

 

 

The Sixty-four Limbs of Bhajana

 

Srî Bindu-vikrisinî-vrtti

 

(1) Srî-guru-padrisraya

 

Taking shelter at the lotus feet of Srî Guru

 

In all the scriptures that promote bhakti the unlimited

glories of Srî Guru have been described. Without taking shelter at

the lotus feet of a sad-guru it is impossible to enter into the realm

of bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore, out of all the limbs ofbhakti, sad-

guru-padrisraya has been cited first. It is the duty of all faithful

persons who have a desire for bhagavad-bhakti to take shelter at

the lotus feet of a spiritual master who is a genuine preceptor of the

sristras expounding the glories of Bhagavrin and who is expert in

understanding and explaining the mantras describing Bhagavan.

All anarthas are easily removed only by the mercy of such a

genuine spiritual master and thus one also obtains the supreme

favour of Bhagavan. By the mercy of Srî Guru all anarthas are

easily destroyed. Srîla Jîva Gosvrimî has demonstrated this in his

Bhakti-sandarbha (Anuccheda 237) by citing the evidence of

various sastras. He has explained this by the statement of Brahmrijî

as well:

 

yo mantrah sa guruh saksat

yo guruh sa harih svayam

gurur yasya bhavet tustas

tasya tusto harih svayam

 

The mantra (which is given by the guru) is itself the guru, and the

guru is directly the Supreme Lord Hari. He upon whom the

spiritual master is pleased also obtains the pleasure of Srî Hari

Himself.

 

Comment

 

 

The guru’s internal, spiritual mood of service to Srî Radhika and

Krsna is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of a mantra.

 

Everything is given in seed form within the mantra. At first the

disciple will not be able to understand, but by performing sadhana

and bhajana under the guidance of Srî Gurudeva and by meditating

on the mantra given by him, gradually everything will be revealed.

Therefore it is said here that the mantra is the direct representa-

tion of Srî Gurudeva...

Then the commentary continues for that verse. After that first verse comes 63 more like this:

 

 

(2) Sri-krsna-diksa-siksadi

Receiving initiation and spiritual instructions

It was confusing because the first verse appears to have a commentary by Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura while the rest do not, nor is there an indication that the commentary for the remaining verses are those of Srila Narayana Maharaja because as in the first verse where "Comment" is used to denote Srila Narayana Maharaja's commentary the rest do not say "Comment". So like I said it was difficult for me to know who was saying what.

 

 

This was quoted by someone earlier from that commentary which caused me to post what I did on this topic:

 

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has clearly said that those persons who have abandoned the pursuits of karma-yoga, jnan yoga, japa, tapa, and othe processes of sadhana, who have accepted Bhagavan as their istadeva and who are engaged in sravana,kirtanam and smarna of bhagvan-nama, but who have not accepted diksa from a Vaisnava guru according to the Vaisnava regulations, cannot attain the Supreme Lord. They will merely be prevented from entering hell, or in their next birth, by the influence of the bhajana performed from the previous life, they will obtain sadhu-sanga. By then taking shelter at the lotus feet of a guru, receiving diksa from him and making advancement through the different stages of bhakti, they can attain the Supreme Lord.

That seemed to be the commentary on this verse cited above:

 

 

(2) Sri-krsna-diksa-siksadi

Receiving initiation and spiritual instructions

What Srila Narayana Maharaja has done is make it seem like the above verse says what Srila Narayana Maharaja is saying in his commentary above. But since he makes no clear demarcation between his commentary and whether or not Srila Thakura has made these comments in the above or elsewhere it is difficult to know who says what. For the life of me I can't see how Srila Narayana Maharaja sees what he sees in what Srila Thakura is saying in the verse he is commenting on. So I don't know if Srila Narayana Maharaja was refering to some other verse or what he meant to say. What I had written was that it is confusing trying to figure out what was commentary and what was direct translation.

[Puru_Das 0]

 

It was confusing because the first verse appears to have a commentary by Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura while the rest do not, nor is there an indication that the commentary for the remaining verses are those of Srila Narayana Maharaja because as in the first verse where "Comment" is used to denote Srila Narayana Maharaja's commentary the rest do not say "Comment". So like I said it was difficult for me to know who was saying what. . . . What Srila Narayana Maharaja has done is make it seem like the above verse says what Srila Narayana Maharaja is saying in his commentary above. But since he makes no clear demarcation between his commentary and whether or not Srila Thakura has made these comments in the above or elsewhere it is difficult to know who says what.

To some extent you are correct, but we don't want you to stay confused. SBVNM, and/or the editors of the book, have not translated the comments by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and all the 26 verses seperately and then offered a purport of them by SBVNM. SVCT's commentary,as well as the translations of some verses are indeed included in

SBVNM's translation and commentary called: Srî Bindu-vikåsinî-vrtti, or the commentary that reveals the meaning of Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu That is why on the cover of the book it says Translation and Commentary by SSBVNM.

SBVNM does use marks whenever he refers to Cakravartipada's commentary on verses that came from the BRS of Srila Rupa Gosvami. for example: On pp. 138. of Bhakti-rasamarta-sindhu-bindu,within the "Comment" SBVNM writes; "In his commentary on this verse Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written as follows: "When the previously mentioned. . ." and SBVNM gives some translation of SVCT's comments and it is clearly indicated by quotation marks.

Then SBVNM writes on pp 139: "In his commentary on SCc, Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained this verse in simple and straightforward language. We are citing his words here for the benefit of the reader. . ." like that. At the bottom of the page

after ". . . delight." the lotus logo is there to indicated the end of SBVNM's "Comment." and then on p. 140 his Translation and Commentary of verse 12 continues.

Kindly re-examine the introduction and the matter is very clear.

 

His [refering to SBVNM] translation and commentary is named Srî Bindu-vikåsinî-vrtti, or the commentary that reveals the meaning of Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu-bindu.

In this commentary he has expanded the subject matter by including Srîla Cakravartipåda’s own commentary to the verses that were taken from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu. He has also drawn additional material from Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu and relevant verses from Srîmad-Bhågavatam, Srî Caitanya-caritåmrta, Hari-bhakti-vilåsa, Bhaktisandarbha and other scriptures. In addition, he has made very significant comments to facilitate comprehension of the subject matter.

Some of these comments were footnotes to his original Hindi commentary and others were spoken by him in English. These comments are identified in this edition simply as “Comment”. The end of such comments are indicated by a lotus flower symbol, at which point the text returns to the translation of Srîla Gurudeva’s Bindu-vikåsinî commentary

The book very clearly says on the cover page Translation and commentary by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Naryana Maharaja. In the introduction the publishers clearly states that this translation AND commentary are called "Sri Bindu-vikasini-vrtti, Illumination of the meaning of Sri Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu-bindu. In the first line of this commentary on verse 1, SBVNM offers obeisances at the lotus feet of his spirtual master, nitya-lila pravista om visnupada astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnan Kesva Gosvami; Sri RUpa Gosvami, who is the eternal associate of Lord Gauranga; all the spiritual masters who are following in the line of Sri Rupa Gosvami, and Sri Sri Gauranga Gandharvika Giridhari Sri Sri Radhda-Vinoda-bihari. He prays for their causeless mercy and blessings etc. Anything placed after "Comment" are additional remarks from SBVNM.

 

For the life of me I can't see how Srila Narayana Maharaja sees what he sees in what Srila Thakura is saying in the verse he is commenting on. So I don't know if Srila Narayana Maharaja was refering to some other verse or what he meant to say. What I had written was that it is confusing trying to figure out what was commentary and what was direct translation

Srila BVNM was explaining the second anga of bhakti, and diksa in his translation and commentary. The part you can't digest or accept is simply his repetition of what Srila Jiva Govami has written in his Bhakti-sandharba on the topic of harinam and mantra. SBVNM doesn't invent anything or make up his own meanings, but simply repeats what is being given to us by our predecessor acaryas. Guru, sadhu and shastra. Throughout the entire book SBVNM always corrobates his statements with shastric references, as did HDGSACBSP throughout his purports and as did SBSST throughout his writing as well. .

[Puru_Das 0]

On page 48 of Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu-bindu in his Translation and Commentary, of Verse 4 SBVNM writes:

". . . By the word nrnam used in this verse, Srila Sanatana Gosvami has indicated a person who has received initiation. In other words a person who receives diksa becomes a dvija* or twice-born. By the word dvijatvam he has indicated that one attains to the state of a brahmana, or one who knows the absolute truth Brahman. The word dvijatvam used here does not mean the state of being a dvija by initiation into the sacred thread like that of the ksatriyas and vaisyas. By the procedure of diksa the disciple is born again. This is called birth by diksa (daiksa-janma).

There are three kinds of birth: (1) saukra-janma-seminal birth; that is, birth by mother and father, ()savitra-janma- a ceremony in which a boy is initiated into one of the three twice-born classes by being invested with the sacred thread and (3)daiksa-janma--birth by the process of spiritual initiation (diksa). Evena a sudra or an untouchable person who is born in the lowest family obtains the samskaras for being a dvija upon being initiated in accordance witht he regulations of the Pancaratra. This is the purport of the following statement from the Mahabharata (Anusasana-parva 143.46). . . "

*The word dvija in common usage can refer to a man of any of the first three classes-brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya-who had been reborn by being invested with the sacred thread. Here, however, the word dvija is being used specificially to refer to the state of a brahmana, or one who knows Brahman.

You can read almost the same information in one of SBSST's lectures called "Search for Truth",pp.18, in a book called Sri Chaitanya's Teachings, 4th edition published in 1999 by the Sree Gaudiya Matha,Chennai.

". . .There is a function which is called 'Upanayana' (bringing near). We come to learn from the words of the Shruti that the birth of man is three-fold, viz. (1)seminal birth (2)by Gayatri(3) by initiation. The seminal birth comes first in order of time, from the mother's womb. Then comes the second birth on the attainment of purification by the Gayatrimantram. The next birth is brought about on receiving Spritual enligtenment (diksa). We obtain a body from the mother's womb by vital fluid from the father. This is our first birth. The body that we get by this process is one kind of body. The second kind of body is that which is born by the union of the Acharya as father and Gayatri as mother at the time of our investiture with the Holy thread. Then the Acarya-father binds us with the thread of Sacrifice for the purpose of introducing us to the study of the Vedas by means of the Mantras, I will lead thee into the presence of the Veda etc. The birth to which we are therebye subjected in the home of the Acharya is our second birth. . . "

So,if I may be so bold as to observe SBSST and SVCT (as explained by SBVNM in his translation and commentary) make a distinction between receiving gayatri and diksa. Hearing the mantra is only the beginning, or entrance into the school of diksa. Divya-jnanam or spiritual enligtenment (which Srila Jiva Gosvami mentions) is for the graduates of that school, those who actually have realized diksa.

[Puru_Das 0]

Comment

 

The gurus internal, spiritual mood of service to Sri Radhika and Krsna is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of mantra .Everything is given in seed form within the mantra. At first the discple will not be able to understand, but by performing sadhana and bhajana under the guidance of Sri Gurudeva and by meditating on the mantra given by him, gradually everything will be revealed. Therefore, it is said here that the mantra is the direct representation of Sri Gurudeva.. . ."

SBVNM

[Guest guest]

 

Srila BVNM was explaining the second anga of bhakti, and diksa in his translation and commentary. The part you can't digest or accept is simply his repetition of what Srila Jiva Govami has written in his Bhakti-sandharba on the topic of harinam and mantra. SBVNM doesn't invent anything or make up his own meanings, but simply repeats what is being given to us by our predecessor acaryas. Guru, sadhu and shastra. Throughout the entire book SBVNM always corrobates his statements with shastric references, as did HDGSACBSP throughout his purports and as did SBSST throughout his writing as well.

Puru dasa, Kusakratha has given a totally different translation of that section you refer to in Bhakti Sandarbha. It is as though words are being put into the mouth of Sri Jiva Gosvamin, when in fact he said something altogether different.

 

 

Once I discussed this matter with Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Gosvami Maharaja. He was very firm on the point that the maha-mantra is all in all, and has everything. He also added, that we "take help from the sampradaya mantras." Seems to me we need all the help we can get in kali yuga if we want to actually get free from the bodily conception of life.

Since Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Gosvami Maharaja and his friend Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj are both saying that the Mahamantra has everything, why persist in this arguing? If gayatri helps you then that is wonderful, but most disciples of Gaudiya Matha Acaryas only receive Harinama and that is enough to take us to Krishna's feet, as the example of the prostitute initiated by Srila Haridas Thakur clearly shows. That lady Mayadevi received Rama-nama in her previous life (not gayatri diksa) and in this next life she received Krishna nama. That Krishna nama alone can bestow Krishna prema is clearly stated in the sastra. Why continue arguing the contrary view?

[Beggar 0]

If gayatri helps you then that is wonderful, but most disciples of Gaudiya Matha Acaryas only receive Harinama... Why continue arguing the contrary view?

What Gaudiya Math? The Gaudiya Math in your dream world? I happen to know a number of young (and apparently unqualified members) of the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math and almost all of them who show any semblance of a service attitude receive diksa (Gayatri) mantras from their gurudeva, Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda-deva Maharaja. How does this in anyway contradict the idea that the Mahamantra is all in all and can give everything? If Srila Govinda Maharaja stoped giving second initiation, which he would never do since he is the successor to Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhar-deva Gosvami Maharaja, then you could use your arguments to justify that position. But this situation only exists in your imagination. Is the fact that the Mahamantra is preminent mean that we should stop honoring prasadam and eat bhoga? What kind of neophyte insanity is this to use one part of the philosophy to bash another part, all in the name of loyalty to one's guru? Does it prove your a loyal follower of your guru to go on a public campaign against another Gaudiya guru? Those who are doing this must stop these offenses immediately. Follow your gurus orders and the program that he has given you and look inward for the faults, they are not in the environment but rather in the eye of the beholder. One who has no realisation of this is not even a religious person.

[Beggar 0]

I read on this forum that Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja received Harinama from Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura and gayatri from a godbrother who later fell down. Can he give gayatri to disciples, Beggar? Can he give it if it is THE MAIN THING and he didn't get it from a pure source (if he only got Harinama from the pure source).

Where do you percieve that anyone who has even a superficial aquaintance with the Sankirtan Movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is saying that the gayatri mantras are the "main thing"? Again, the Hare Krsna Mahamantra is the main thing and the gayatri mantras are there to help us. This is the absolute conception and the relative application. Statements that the Holy Name of Krsna are all in all are the absolute conception. The relative application is how the acaryas apply this in the world. One relative application is the diksa or gayatri mantras. When Srila Narayana Maharaja talks about the "absolute necessity" of diksa and chanting of the gayatri he is using the English word, "absolute" in another way. This is more evidence that most of these posts are an argument over semantics. The issue is constantly brought up as a "straw man argument" to rehash the Narayana Maharaja issue endlessly. As far as the question of Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja's second initiation and his chanting of gayatris, I really don't know the answer, but that is a corallary point which is not at the heart of the issue. Why not make some absurd argument that Krsna is not really in His diety form because Sri Murti is not technically the Holy Name? Why not stop chanting japa completely because Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that chanting nama aparadha is like "firing blanks"? That is even more ridiculous but is definitely going on in certain circles.

[Puru_Das 0]

Guest, I suggest you re read this talk from Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja, "Descent of the Holy Name."

http://bvml.org/SBRSM/tdothn.html

It is a straw man argument to compare Kusakratha Prabhu's translations with SBVNM's translation and commentary. Try examining the non literal translations of many of the verses in the Sri Guadiya Kantahara

http://bvml.org/SGK/index.htm

that glorify Mahaprabhu.

http://bvml.org/SGK/04.html

Our acaryas have translated many of these slokas in light of their own realization when the sanskrit makes no direct mention of Gauranga Mahaprabhu. We find here non literal translations. To accept them requires faith in the translators, otherwise not.

I am not a sanskrit expert so it will be difficult to determine if SBVNM has given a literal or explicative translation of Srila Jiva Gosvami. His book (Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu-bindu) is translation and commentary. I hardly think it is reasonable, and borders on aparadha, for you to assume he is "putting words in Srila Jiva Gosvami's mouth," Would you say that the translator of the slokas of Gaudiya Kantahara was inventing words when he indicated Mahaprabhu? I think not. You have no faith in SBVNM, then so be it. There is simply no need to denigrate diksa and the sampradaya mantras in the name of glorifying the holy name. There is also no need to denigrate the sincere efforts of Viasnavas to assist conditioned souls on their path back to godhead. There is no need to broadcast speculative instructions and wrong directions regarding the importance of Krsna's advice in Bg. 4.34 and second initiation.

[Puru_Das 0]

Here is a verse with a translation of Srila Jiva Gosvami's tikha of Bhakti Rasamrta-sindhu

http://bvml.org/SHBM/brs5.html

offered to us by Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja. Then SHBM gives additional comments of his own in the "Translator's notes." The information goes hand in hand with Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja's article, "Decent of the Holy Name."

Text 2:

tatra sadhana-bhaktih –

krti-sadhya bhavet sadhya-bhava sa sadhanabhidha |

nitya-siddhasya bhavasya prakatyam hrdi sadhyata ||2||

Translation: Uttama-Bhakti, that has been previously explained, when translated into practice through the organs of the body, and which being so practiced brings on the manifestation of Bhava-Bhakti in the heart of the individual is called Sadhana-Bhakti. –2-

Commentary: A question may be raised: As the practices of Uttama-Bhakti through the organs of the body is Sadhana-Bhakti, can it be said that such physical practices are only a means to an end or they are a part and parcel of Sadhana-Bhakti itself? Commentator Sri Jiva Gosvami says that just as all that is done as the preliminary of a Vedic sacrificial ritual is considered to be part and parcel of the sacrificial ceremony, so also the physical activities through which Sadhana-Bhakti is practiced for bringing on the manifestation of Bhava-Bhakti should be regarded as part and parcel of Sadhana-Bhakti. The self-revelation of the eternally real Bhava-Bhakti in the heart is called Bhava-Sadhya.

Sri Jiva Gosvami further answers a hypothetical objection. It may be said that if Bhava-Bhakti is to result from Sadhana-Bhakti as a consequence thereof, it becomes an effect in time (Janya-Padartha), and therefore does not answer to the conception of Bhava-Bhakti as an eternally accomplished reality. Sri Jiva points out in reply that what happens in the case in question is that Bhava, which is an eternal essence of the Swarupa-Sakti i.e. the Intrinsic Potency of the Lord Himself, and not a thing that grows in the heart of an individual as an effect of Sadhana-Bhakti, reveals itself into the heart of the Jiva-atma or finite self, where it was absent because of its self-forgetfulness and God-forgetfulness. When such Bhava-Bhakti appears in the heart of the finite self (Jiva-atma), it reveals itself in such special physical expressions as (1) chanting of the Name of the Lord, (2) hearing the glories of the Lord and above all, (3) mentally recalling the Events of His Divine Life. This disposes of the objections that such physical activities being parts of Sadhana-Bhakti, they cannot be included as elements of Bhava-Bhakti. In fact in Sadhana-Bhakti the activities that are practiced are a means to the End Bhava, in which they culminate. But the expressions of Bhava-Bhakti through the tongue, ears and mind of the devotee who has attained Bhava-Bhakti are themselves part and parcel of the Bhava that has appeared in the heart of the individual and are not a means to anything other than themselves. In Sadhana-Bhakti the physical activities are a part and parcel of Sadhana-Bhakti itself, while in Bhava-Bhakti its Anu-Bhavas, such as chanting or singing or listening or remembrances, make use of the tongue, ears and mind of the Bhava-devotee and spontaneously manifest themselves in these physical organs out of the eternal and innate essence of the Swarupa-Sakti of the Supreme Lord.

Translator's Note: It may be noted here that one of the basic principles on which the Vaisnava religion is founded is that the finite self or Jiva-atma in the stage of God-forgetfulness is incapable of generating Bhakti in itself by its unaided individual effort. Bhakti is part and parcel of the intrinsic nature or essence of the Lord's Swarupa-Sakti, i.e. the Potency that is inherently associated with and non-differentiated from the Lord Himself. It is this that descends into the Jiva-soul through the Guru Parampara, i.e. the uninterrupted claim of Preceptorial Order; in each one of the Preceptors in the chain this power of the Lord must have manifested itself. If this chain of the perceptorial Order is interrupted at any link, there can be no manifestation of this eternal Seed of Bhakti in the individual disciple. It is illustrated here by a simile. Just as the sacred river Ganga issues from the mouth of the cow shaped cave in the snow-clad Himalayas and descends on the plain and flows uninterrupted into the sea sanctifying all the lands through which she passes, so is it with this Bhakti-Rasa of the Nectar of Devotion and Devotional Love of the Supreme Lord that emanates from the Lord's Swarupa-Sakti and revealing itself through an uninterrupted Chain of Spiritual Preceptors or Guru appears at last in the heart of a self-forgetful and God-forgetful mortal who has the good fortune by accident to come in contact with one of these saints while floating in the current of time just like a piece of straw accidentally stuck to the shore while being carried adrift in the fast stream of a river. What is to be noted here is that Chain must not be interrupted at any link in order that the appearance of Bhakti may be possible in an ordinary mortal. We may also explain this idea by a modern simile. Just as for telephonic communication from one part of the country to another, there must be a connecting wire without which such communication is not possible from one part of the country to another, and just as the wires being cut in between, communication from one part to another becomes impossible, so also it is with the manifestation of the eternal Bhava or Prema-Bhakti, which is the essence of the Lord's Swarupa-Sakti, through an uninterrupted succession of truly genuine Gurus (not Guru-bruvas, i.e. fake Gurus).

Sri Jiva Gosvami further comments that it has been already said that Sadhana-Bhakti is Sadhana-Bhakti in the sense that it brings on the manifestation of Bhava-Bhakti in the Jiva-soul. Therefore, practices, which lead to the attainment of ends other than Bhava-Bhakti, such as Dharma, Artha, ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/<st1:place>Kama</st1:place> or Moksa, are not to be considered as answering to the conception of Sadhana-Bhakti. It is pointed out in this connection that Bhava-Bhakti is not a generated event, but is a case of the descent of Eternally Real from God to the individual. If it were a generated event, it would be like all events in time -a thing that begins in time and also ends in time, and would thus cease to be Parama-Purusartha or summum bonum of life. But it is, as has been said, not a generated event at all, but something that eternally is. What is generated is its appearance in the individual heart through descent from God to man. –2-

[Shakti-Fan 0]

I'm not saying that these devotees lack all sincerity. I just think that they would be stronger if they chanted their japa and gayatri and followed some sadhana when they are in their home countries. From what I know these devotees try to be much stricter when they are in Navadvipa. Also from what I know of the rift between these two groups most of the nastyness was coming from the Govinda Maharaja group in the late nineties. Now it appears to have escalated and offenses are being traded like some kind of cannon fire which we can see on this forum. This is really sad for both have so much to offer to the devotee community at large. It is a fact that the ISKCON group is where most of the devotees in both of these factions have come from. And ISKCON and its branches are the largest group of devotees worldwide. By your constant offenses to each other, you are creating a poisoned atmosphere where most devotees in the main group will no longer take you or your gurus seriously. In other words by your words and actions you are ruining the reputations of your gurus and the Gaudiya Math in general. Generally the mood in ISKCON is less than enthusiastic and static. Srila Prabhupada made so many warnings about Gaudiya Math because of the politics. So if ISKCON devotees and those that they recruit are looking for an association not polluted by politics, where will they go? Probably to the Babajis who have no respect for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. And yet it seems that none of you can see this as the situation deteriorates further and further.

[theist 1]

[moderator's note: as the post it was made in was removed, the quote from that post used here was removed as well]

"Maybe..."

Please be careful not to spread such speculation. It amounts to gossip and is poisonous.

"Therefore we are not of any faction" -Srila Prabhupada

[Beggar 0]

Wikipedia article "Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Gosvami Maharaja".

Sri Sri Gayatri-nigudartha

 

Garuda Purana states:

artho ‘yam brahma-sutranam bharatartha-vinirnaya˙ gayatri-bhasya-rupo’ sau vedartha-paribrmhita˙

“The meaning of the Vedanta-sutra is present in Srimad Bhagavatam. The full purport of the Mahabharata is also there. The commentary of the brahma-gayatri is also there and fully expanded with all Vedic knowledge.”

In his Sanskrit commentary on brahma-gayatri (Sri Gayatri-nigudartha), Sridhara Maharaja has uncovered the steps leading the gayatri-mantra to the Srimad Bhagavatam. The conclusion is:

gayatri-muralista-kirtana-dhanam radha-padam dhimahi

“The gayatri, that has sprung from the flute sound of Sri Krishna, only sings the glories of Srimati Radharani.”

gayatri-gaditam mahaprabhu-matam radha-padam dhimahi

“The highest and innermost instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is to engage yourself in the service of the lotus feet of Srimatî Radharani through sankirtana [congregational chanting]. Her lotus feet are to be your constant meditation.”

Regarding the Gayatri-nigudartha of Sridhara Maharaja, Bhakti Pramoda Puri Gosvami has said, “The explanation of brahma-gayatri, the mother of all Vedas, signifying devotional worship unto Srimati Radharani Sri radhanudhyana-para explanation, which was revealed in the depth of realization of Pujyapada Sridhara Deva Gosvami Maharaja, possessed with the divine grace of Paramaradhya Sri Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura) upon his head—is deeply appreciated by those fortunate, intelligent devotees who are aware of the relishable beauty of pure devotional service.”

Upon the transcendental appearance of Sri Gayatri-nigudartha from the pure heart of Sridhara Maharaja the Vaishnava world of pure devotees rejoiced and danced in great ecstasy.

[Puru_Das 0]

The easiest way to get rid of an unwanted guest is simply not to feed him.

Over reaction to guest's negative rumors will only encourage him to post more off the topic distractions. Don't let his tar baby gum you up. He could be one of many contentious personalities that is attracted to forum discussions simply to divert anyone from a serious discussion. If Jnanadas will reveal his isp we can identify him.

[theist 1]

 

The easiest way to get rid of an unwanted guest is simply not to feed him.

Over reaction to guest's negative rumors will only encourage him to post more off the topic distractions. Don't let his tar baby gum you up. He could be one of many contentious personalities that is attracted to forum discussions simply to divert anyone from a serious discussion. If Jnanadas will reveal his isp we can track him down.

No need to track anyone down. We just need to be careful. Even things said in jest have a way of taking on a life of their own. A gentle reminder should suffice.

Gossip also has no place in a spiritual discussion.

I want to take the timing of the new forum as a time of ridding myself of all my rude and divisive tone whitch is so natural to me and replace it with something more gentle and less pompous and fault finding. Before any new birth can become realized the old body must be discarded. An essential part of that burial for me requires offering my sincere apologies for my past bad behaviour which i wish to now offer to the general assembly of posters and readers here.

At your feet,

t.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

Let's have a commercial break (as in TV)!

 

I believe if we have reached 8 pages of this topic, it only means to show that we will never convince anyone to change their positions re this subject.

 

So exactly what is the purpose of this debate now? Be honest in your heart, does this debate increases your love for Radha-Krishna, proves that you're a KC "intellectual heavyweight", or prove that Srila Narayan Maharaj is wrong?

 

Be humble, SNM has wisdom we do not even have in our pinky finger!

 

Religion/Spirituality/Philosophy/Law is not an exact science as compared to maths.

 

KC studies therefore is not exact science in the way that is dependent to a certain degree on the realizations/visions of the Guru.

 

In Law, there is the concept of "precedent" because the Law can not cover each and every single situation. And therefere the judge's judgement becomes the precedent and other judges may refer to it, or from it the Law could be written. In Tax law, tax lawyers, accountants get "rulings" from the Tax Commissioner if the law is in the grey area. This is the practice in Australia, at least.

 

I would liken precedents to "realizations”.

 

Also the point I’d like to make (that has been pointed out before) is that our real advancement is in following the teachings/order/sadhana/program prescribed (whatsoever you call it) by our Guru. You do not go to a doctor if you do not think he has the right prescription for you. And definitely , you do not debate a doctor about medicines if you are not a doctor yourself.

 

Before I end, 2 things: no tracking down of ISP to frighten people !, we try to be vaishnavas; we are not the mafia or CIA. If Jndas can change this forum where no one can post unregistered then some degree of gentleness and etiquette can be maintained here. As they say , we have to lift our game !

To theist, after a very very long journey, I have approached a Guru who I have faith in for initiation. Please don’t take this as a point of debate, that is not my point just informing everyone. I have no publicity spindoctor to announce this!!!!

 

May our love for Radha-Krishna increases by this forum . I think this is the purpose of its creation.

 

All glories to Guru and Gauranga!

Myrla

Australia

[Guest guest]

I said above:

Be humble, SNM has wisdom we do not even have in our pinky finger!

 

It should be better said this way: Be humble, SNM has wisdom in his pinky finger that we do not have in our entire body !

 

I hope I make the my idea clear. Please excuse me, English is my second language.

 

Haribol

Myrla

[Guest guest]

I just read the post of Puru dasa in which Bon Maharaja speaks about the "uninterrupted Chain of Spiritual Preceptors".

 

This notion of the "uninterrupted Chain of Spiritual Preceptors" is what the Radha kunda babajis preach. They are the ones who say you need to have an unbroken diksa parampara. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami had a different view. He gave his parampara list in the front of his Anubhasya CC commentary and it is a siksa guru parampara.

 

We know that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami received diksa from Srila Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja. But who amongst you devotees involved in this discussion knows the name of the diksa guru of Srila Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja?

 

It wasn't Jagannatha dasa Babaji (siksa guru), or Bhagavata dasa Babaji (sannyasa guru). Nor was it Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura (a friend). Who was it?

 

Puru dasa do you or any of the others here even know the name of "your" predecessor Guru - the diksa guru of Srila Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja?

[stonehearted 0]

theist brings this all in focus. Somehow, this thread has been home to a lot of nastiness. These recently posted rumors don't help us at all. Neither do many of these posts, with their snide, superior tone. Ick!

 

And I thank theist for his exemplary virtual rebirth. I think it goes without saying that your apologies, unnecessary as they are, are happily accepted all around.

 

And I really like the questions Myrla raises:

So exactly what is the purpose of this debate now? Be honest in your heart, does this debate increases your love for Radha-Krishna, proves that you're a KC "intellectual heavyweight", or prove that Srila Narayan Maharaj is wrong?

This should be our guide in all discussions among devotees. Who cares if you're right? Who cares if you "win" some little squabble on an obscure Internet board? Do you think that will endear you to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu? If you think so, then you ought to read Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita and Sri Chaitanya Bhagavat to see how devotees should associate among themselves. And I think that only Ananta-sesa can count the number of times we are warned in those two books alone to avoid any criticism of devotees, whatever the excuse.

 

And I agree with both theist and Myrla that there's no need to threaten anyone. jndas can review those posts to see if they should be removed. He can also track the ISP and exclude that "guest" if he feels it appropriate.

[Beggar 0]

 

Puru dasa do you or any of the others here even know the name of "your" predecessor Guru - the diksa guru of Srila Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja?

Some say that Srila Gaurakisora Babaji's diksa Guru was in the Advaita-vamsa, from Santipur but I can't find his name. The concept of an unbroken chain of disciplic succession is meant for preaching or pravacan. The concept of the Bhavavat Parampara is the siddhanta or Truth (tattva). When Bon Maharaja refers to the unbroken chain of gurus he is preaching.

[Puru_Das 0]

 

I just read the post of Puru dasa in which Bon Maharaja speaks about the "uninterrupted Chain of Spiritual Preceptors".

This notion of the "uninterrupted Chain of Spiritual Preceptors" is what the Radha kunda babajis preach. They are the ones who say you need to have an unbroken diksa parampara. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami had a different view. He gave his parampara list in the front of his Anubhasya CC commentary and it is a siksa guru parampara.

We know that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami received diksa from Srila Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja. But who amongst you devotees involved in this discussion knows the name of the diksa guru of Srila Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja?

It wasn't Jagannatha dasa Babaji (siksa guru), or Bhagavata dasa Babaji (sannyasa guru). Nor was it Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura (a friend). Who was it?

Puru dasa do you or any of the others here even know the name of "your" predecessor Guru - the diksa guru of Srila Gaurakisora das Babaji Maharaja?

Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharja is the diksa, siksa and sannyasa disciple of SBSST and shares the same conception of our guru parampara that his spritual master did. He never writes anything about an uninteruppted diksa line. That is your interpretation of uninterrupted. Uninterrupted also means we understand the diksa and siksa relationships of the Pancaratrika and Bhagavata paramparas back to the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Madhavendra and Isvara Puri and more importantly than a chronological list of names the siddhanta and tattva comes to the present day unchanged.

Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja explains it nicely and I will find the reference.

SBSST has written that Srila Gour Kishore took babaji vesa directly after leaving household life. I have read the opinion that Srila Gaurakisora Babaji's diksa Guru was in the Advaita-vamsa, from Santipur,but as SBSST did not give us his name I can't invent one.

SBSST also did not place Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's diksa guru, Srila Bipin Bihari Gosvami in our guru parampara, because the siksa relationship Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had with his siksa guru Srila Jagannatha Das Babaji Maharaja holds more significance. I would assume the same principle holds true for Srila Gaura Kishore das babaji maharaja as well.

http://bvml.org/SBSST/aentbf.html#1

The following . . . appeared in the Sajjana Tosani monthly magazine in the year 1917. The articles, entitled Anaran Prabhura katha or "The Instuctions of My Spiritual Master" appeared in the nineteenth volume, numbers five and six. The editors of the Caitanya Matha corrected these magazine articles by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and compiled them into a small book. The headings of the stories were given by the editorial staff to depict their specific instructions. The original articles can be found in the Devananda Gaudiya Matha in Navadwip, West Bengal as well as in their branch in Mathura, Utar Pradesh.

"Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji appeared almost one hundred years ago in the district of Pharidapura next to the place called Tepakhola in the village of Vagyana. In that village, which is situated on the shore of the Padma River, he was born as the son of a Vaisya named Vamsi das. During his boyhood his mother and father arranged his marriage and he remained in household life for almost twenty-nine years, working as a grain broker.

After the death of his wife, he left his business and approached Srila Bhagavat dasa Babaji, requesting from him the traditional paramahamsa Vaisnava Babaji dress. After accepting Babaji initiation from Srila Bhagavat dasa Babaji, who was a disciple of Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, Srila Gaurkisora travelled from village to village in Vrndavana, continually performing his worship to Lord Krsna for approximately thirty years. During this time he would sometimes travel to the holy places of pilgrimage in northern and western India. He associated with Sri Svarupa dasa Babaji in Jagannatha Puri, Srila Bhagavan dasa Babaji in Kalina, and Sri Caitanya dasa Babaji in Khulia. Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji became famous among the great devotees of Vrndavana and was given the appropriate name bhajananandi. Even though Srila Gaurakisora received such exalted honor, he never secretly endeavored for even a drop of material sense gratification. He was totally indifferent to material enjoyment. Self-satisfied and alone, he performed his his pure, unalloyed devotional pastimes in a deep devotional mood.

[Puru_Das 0]

http://bvml.org/SBRSM/SGaHG.html#10

 

<CENTER>Instructing Spiritual Masters

 

</CENTER><CENTER>The Disciplic Succession

 

</CENTER><CENTER>Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya

 

</CENTER><CENTER>Bhagavan Sri Krsna

Brahma

Narada

Vyasadeva

Madhvacarya

Padmanabha

Nrhari

Madhava

Aksobhya

Jayatirtha

Jnanasindhu

Dayanidhi

Vidyanidhi

Rajendra

Jayadharma

Purusottama

Brahmanyatirtha

Vyasatirtha

Laksmipati

Madhavendra Pun

Isvara Puri (Nityananda, Advaita)

Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Rupa Goswami (Svarupa Damodara, Sanatana Goswami)

Raghunatha dasa Goswami, Jiva Goswami

Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami

Narottama dasa Thakura

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura

(Baladeva Vidyabhusana) Jagannatha dasa Babaji

Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Gaurakisora dasa Babaji

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

_______|_____

|_____________|_____________| |_____________| |_____________|

B.R. Sridhara Deva Goswami A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami</CENTER>

Devotee: Can you explain how the principle of disciplic succession works? I Was under the impression that in your teaching there must ke an unkroken chain of disciplic succession beginning with God Himself, in order for the knowledge to be properly understood. But when I read Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I found that the disciplic succession contains only thirty-eight names, although it says that the system is fifty centuries old. Is this a complete list, or are some names left out? How are we to understand these apparent historical discrepancies?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Our guru parampara, disciplic succession, follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga janera jivana: the highest truth of Krsna consciousness comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus.

Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; the substantial thing is siksa, or spiritual instruction. And if our siksa and diksa gurus or instructing and initiating spiritual masters are congruent, then we are most fortunate. There are different gradations of spiritual masters. In the scriptures, the symptoms of the guru and the symptoms of the disciple have been described: the guru must be qualified in so many ways, and the disciple must also be qualified. Then when they come in connection, the desired result will be produced.

We are concerned with Krsna consciousness, wherever it is available. In the Bhagavad-gita and especially in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krsna says, "I start the Krsna consciousness movement, but gradually by the enervating influence of the material world, it weakens. When I find that it has diminished considerably, I return and begin a fresh movement. Again, when I find that it is becoming degraded by the adverse influence of the environment, I send one of my representatives to clear the path and give some fresh energy, invest some fresh capital in my Krsna consciousness movement."

What is Krsna consciousness? We must examine the standard of knowledge. The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading what Krsna consciousness really is. Krsna consciousness is not a trade; it is not anyone's monopoly. The sincere souls must thank their lucky stars that they can appreciate what Krsna consciousness is, wherever it may be.

Devotee: How are we to understand that in the history of our disciplic succession, it appears that there are gaps where there was no initiating guru present to formally accept disciples?

 

<CENTER>Spiritual Light Years

</CENTER>Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We are not concerned with a material connection. The mediator is not this flesh and body as we generally think. In studying the development of scientific thought, we may connect Newton to Einstein, leaving aside many unimportant scientists. We may trace the development of science fromGalileo to Newton, and then to Einstein, neglecting the middle points. If their contributions are taken into account, then the whole thing is taken into account, and lesser scientists may be omitted. When a long distance is to be surveyed, the nearest posts may be neglected. Between one planet and another, the unit of measurement is the light year; distance is calculated in light years and not from mile to mile, or meter to meter. In the disciplic succession, only the great stalwarts in our line are considered important.

Devotee: There was one question still in my mind on guru parampara which was not clarified. Between Baladeva Vidyabhusana and Jagannatha Dasa Babaji is a gap of almost a hundred years. How is it that between the two of them no one is listed in our guru parampara?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We have to forget material consideration when we consider the spiritual line. Here in this plane, the spiritual current is always being disturbed and interrupted by material obstructions. Whenever truth is interrupted by a material flow and becomes mixed or tampered with, Krsna appears to again reinstate the truth in its former position of purity (yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata). That attempt is always being made by the Lord and his devotees. The flow of spiritual truth is a living thing, not a dead thing. The vigilant eye of the Lord is always over our heads, and whenever it is necessary to keep the current pure and flowing in full force, help descends from above. Krsna says to Arjuna, "What I say to you today, I spoke to Vivasvan many, many years ago. Now, by the influence of material conception, that very truth has become contaminated, and so again I say the same thing to you today. . . "

The flow of truth is the real issue, not just a list of names.

There are also other names of SBSST's disciples that can be added to the last line, and the next generation can also be included. The cut and paste is from Sri Guru and His Grace, and this is how the editors of that book presented it.

[Guest guest]

 

Some say that Srila Gaurakisora Babaji's diksa Guru was in the Advaita-vamsa, from Santipur but I can't find his name. The concept of an unbroken chain of disciplic succession is meant for preaching or pravacan. The concept of the Bhavavat Parampara is the siddhanta or Truth (tattva). When Bon Maharaja refers to the unbroken chain of gurus he is preaching.

Preaching is something different from telling the truth?

 

I've never heard this before! Amazing.

 

Puru dasa said that since SBSST didn't tell us the name. This is a fact. The diksa line of Srila Gaurakisora Babaji doesn't really matter. If a disciple gets Harinama, or sannyasa, or even siksa from a genuine Guru then that is a substantial link to the Parampara. The ritual of receiving diksa may not always eventuate but the devotee can still attain Krishna prema even without getting diksa from a genuine saint.