Siddha Pranali

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

But what is the difference between diyva-jnana and diksa mantra? Can you tell me the essence, please.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Receiving the mantra is "diksa".

 

Receiving instruction (divya jnana) is "siksa".

 

When you get initiation you also get some instruction. But initiation itself is when Sri Guru speaks the mantra to you.

 

Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati gave initiation to one gentleman who was dying in Dacca by speaking the mantra to him via telephone. He also allowed Bon Maharaj to give ritvik initiation to Sadananda in Europe. In both cases, the disciple is considered to be a direct disciple of Srila Saraswati Thakur. The main thing, according to Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj, is the WILL of the Guru. If his will is that the disciple is accepted, then the physical circumstances of the ritual are unimportant. If the circumstances are such that the connection is through the medium of a telephone line, or if the disciple is right beside the Guru and he speaks the mantra in your ear, it is all the same.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

You know is it my misconception, or is there really no so such thing as re-initiation?

 

Divya-jnana and Diksya are same?

 

But Divya-jnana is the essence right.

 

I take this essence instead Thankyou.

Now where's my diyva-jnana gone to...

[Guest guest]

is a lot. How about you sum up what Madhavananda really thinks. Do you find what he really thinks bogus? Jndas' summary is about a one Gaurasundar.

 

"Madhavananda and co."

 

and co?

[muralidhar_das 0]

Madhavananda was logged in as Raga.

 

Just read the posts by Raga if you want to know what he thinks.

 

Gaurasundara dasa is an admirer of Raga.

[Guest guest]

Murlidhara you wrote:

 

 

Shiva, I believe the translation Kusakratha Prabhu did was done very quickly. He is an exalted devotee, but in those translations of his I have seen some glaring errors.

 

 

Are you able to read sanskrit and or bengali? If not then how do you know which translation is accurate? I have heard criticism of Kusakratha before, but the people who were the critics had much less experience in sanskrit then Kusakratha, some people who have criticized him were not even born when Kusakratha was studying sanskrit for years. So, I am not accepting so qucikly offhand remarks by people who have less experience then he did. Can you find a word for word translation of that verse? If not then why do you accept it as bonafide?

 

And to the guest who commented on what I said about Madhava's new forum; I don't read there, but I do know that it is Madhava's site, and I know Madhava and the people he typically hangs with on forums. They are less then kind ( actually denigrating) at the very least towards Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and his spiritual descendants. Associating with him in the mode of "learning about other traditions" is your right to do so. However when you post lies to others about how Madhava and his acolytes speak about Srila Prabhupada etc, then I will simply tell you I know better. Madhava has made it more then clear many times on his previous forums that he thinks our acaryas are all bogus.

[Guest guest]

This is the typical putdown mentality of Madhava:

 

 

The word traditional has been selected in favor of other alternatives, such as orthodox or classical, for lack of a better term. The word orthodox is misleading as (1) it implies that there is a particular, single orthodoxy that is followed, which is by no means the case in the vast plurality of our tradition, and (2) among traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas, there is also much disagreement over what exactly constitutes an orthodox view on some issues. The word classical, while being a good alternative, is not as inclusive a word as traditional.

 

 

In the above he states that what he calls "traditional" Gaudiya Vaisnavas have "much disagreement" on various issues in Gaudiya theology. Yet in the next paragraph he tells us that he can't consider the Gaudiya Maths and Iskcon as "traditional"? Why not? Aren't the so called "traditional" vaisnavas in disagreement on philosophical conclusions? How is it that the Gaudiya Math and Iskcon are relegated to the neo-Gaudiya sector and the others are not? Who sets the standard for being accepted as "traditional"? Madhava? Why is it if the Gaudiya Math and Iskcon differs from the others they are considered by Madhava as non traditional, but if the other groups disagree with each other they are still traditional?

 

It's just Madhavas attitude towards the Gaudiya Matha and Iskcon which is the deciding factor. That should tell you a lot about how Madhava thinks.

 

 

The division into traditional and non-traditional is made in particular with ISKCON and Gaudiya Matha in mind. We do not regard them as being a part of traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism, given the fact that Gaudiya Matha's founder, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, was very explicit in his desire to break off from most of the existing traditions, for all practical purposes forming a new kind of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. While we respect his reform and innovations, we may disagree on several of its aspects, and therefore feel it as being essentially outside the scope of this forum

 

 

 

Notice he says that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was "very explicit in his desire to break off from most of the existing traditions". He is trying to pretend that it isn't Madhava who is making the distinction between traditional (i.e "bonafide") and the Gaudiya Matha and Iskcon, it is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta who created the distinction because he wanted to create a new form (i.e bogus) of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I challenge anyone to find where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta ever insinuated that he was presenting a new form of Gaudiya vaisnavism. All he did was claim that many of the so called "traditional" Gaudiya vaisnava groups (according to Madhava) were deviant in some way or another from the true tradition.

 

So Bhaktisiddhanta actually claimed the opposite of what Madhava says he did. Of course Madhava knows this full well. What he is trying to do is fool ignorant people into thinking that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and his followers (and Srila Bhaktivinoda) are all bogus for having a different perspective on diksa, siddha pranali, raganuga bhakti etc then himself and others of his ilk.

 

This is the typical doubletalk putdown type of "clarifying" Madhava is so fond of. The fact is that many of Madhava's views on Gaudiya philosophy are directly contradicted by sastra and the acaryas he says he does accept. I have pointed that out in detail numerous times in the past as have others. Yet he rejects the sastra and those acarya's conclusions of the distant past and present. So it's always funny to see the way he touts himself as the "traditional" vanguard standing for the true innerant path in opposition to the Neo-Vaisnavism Srila Bhaktivinoda, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Prabhupada and others with a much closer relationship to Sri Radha Govinda then he can even conceive of.

[muralidhar_das 0]

In the commentary of Sri Madvacharya (1238-1317) to verse 4.4.5 of the Vedanta Sutra he states:

<blockquote>

The sage Jaimini believes that a liberated person does not have a body of his own. Rather, he enjoys experiences through the body of the all-pervading Absolute Godhead known as Vishnu. It is stated in the Sruti scriptures (Veda) that a liberated soul sees through the eyes of the Lord, hears through His ears etc. The same is also stated in the Smriti scriptures.

 

However the sage Audulomi holds the view that a liberated soul enjoys through a spiritual body of his own, which is essentially made up of divine knowledge (jnana). The form or body of a liberated soul is always defined as being the embodiment of divine knowledge (jnana). A spiritual body made of pure knowledge can never be the cause of worldly attachment or misery (samsara). It is a "bliss-body" that is appropriate for a soul in the state of liberation (mukti).

 

The sage Badarayana Vyasa sees no conflict between the views of Jaimini and Audulomi. He reconciles both of them and sees both as authentic. The scriptures state that a liberated soul does not possess a material body like the body of a person in illusion, hence Jaimini's view that a liberated soul does not have a body is authentic. The Sruti scriptures also state that after relinquishing the material body a liberated soul is an embodiment of spiritual knowledge. Thus Audulomi's view is also authentic. The reconciliation is achieved by arguing that a liberated soul has his knowledge-bliss body and he enjoys pleasure through the instrumentality of the limbs of God's transcendental (aprakrita) body.

</blockquote>

This is the view of Sri Madvacharya and the Tattva-vada school in regard to whether or not a liberated soul has a spiritual body.

 

A different view is presented by Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusan:

<blockquote>

The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sutra explains, "svena-sabdat" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "ninpadyate" in the verse being discussed from Chandogya Upaniñad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavour because the original form already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavour to make manifest the original form of the soul.

</blockquote>

 

In his commentary to verse 2.2186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes this verse by Shankaracarya:

<blockquote>mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta

 

"Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes".

</blockquote>

Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5

<blockquote>

muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana

 

"The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service."

</blockquote>

Srila Sanatan Goswami then asks himself: 'If liberated souls didn't have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service? The answer:

<blockquote>Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah. "Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms."

</blockquote>

 

Srila Sanatan Goswami's statement is conclusive. Souls have dormant human-like forms that exist even when the soul is not or has not ever engaged in bhakti.

 

A disciple of the late Madrasi Krishnadas Babaji of Radhakunda was quoted earlier, mistranslating a verse in CC (Madhya lila, 22:156-157), saying that the spiritual "manjari form" is an "orally guru-given spiritual body". And similarly Kunjabihari das Babaji states "When an individual becomes qualified for direct service to the Lord by the grace of the Goddess of Devotion, then the Supreme Lord awards him that spiritual body." -- This is the opinion they professed; it is the belief they have in their "traditionalist Gaudiya Vaishnava" school of thought.

 

Clearly, these Babajis have a different opinion from Srila Sanatan Goswami.

 

<h2>LET ME PRESENT MY FINAL CONCLUSION HERE:</h2>

 

Have the "traditionalist Gaudiya Vaishnavas" ever found any quotes in any of the writings of the Six Goswamis that say a jiva gets given or awarded a spiritual body?

 

NO.

 

Indeed these so-called traditionalists are not followers of the genuine Gaudiya Vaishnava spiritual tradition. From now on, I have decided, I will henceforth never refer to them as "traditionalist Gaudiya Vaishnavas" but rather as imitationist Gaudiya Vaishnavas. This in fact is the term my Guru Maharaj used when he spoke of these Radha-kunda babajis and like minded people.

 

In his teachings, Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur presented the same view that Srila Sanatan Goswami presented in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam. Souls have dormant human-like forms that exist even when the soul is not or has not ever engaged in bhakti. Sri Sanatana Goswami wrote in his commentary to Brhad Bhagatamrtam, verse 2.2.207: "When a liberated soul gains the favor of the Supreme Lord's personal energy, his spiritual body and senses are reawakened for hearing and chanting the glories of Lord Hari and acting in other ways for the Lord's pleasure."

 

In his Govinda Bhasya commentary to Vedanta Sutra 4.4.12, the verse "Dvadasahavadubhayavidham baadarayano'tah", Baladeva Vidyabhusana states:

 

<blockquote>

the liberated soul, by his own wish, may either have a body or not have a body

</blockquote>

 

The same opinion is presented by the followers of Sri Adi Shankaracharya. For example we read the same thing in Sivananda Swami's commentary to this verse:

<blockquote>

a liberated soul who has attained Brahmaloka can exist both ways, with or without a body, according to his liking

</blockquote>

 

Thus it is, the sages tell us, that a liberated soul can be formless or manifesting a form. The spiritual form of the self of a siddha being can manifest transformations (parinamavada). Transformations of the liberated form of the self are described in Brhad Bhagatamrtam 2.4.35-41 where we read about people who are attaining siddha-deha and entering into Vaikuntha:

<blockquote>

Some came with associates, some with paraphernalia, and some with both associates and paraphernalia. Some merged their associates and paraphernalia in their own selves and became like penniless solitary sages plunged in the nectar of meditation. Some moment by moment manifested different wonderful and charming forms, each opulent with different and wonderful ornaments, features and pastimes. Some were humans, some monkeys, some demigods, some demons, and some sages. Others carried the marks of being initiated in the orders of varna and ashrama. Some were like Indra, Chandra or the other demigods. Some had three eyes, some four heads, and some four arms, some eight arms, and some a thousand faces. I will tell you the reason for this great wonder: How can they who taste the nectar of devotion to Lord Krishna not be handsome? The glories of Vaikuntha's residents, who are all beyond the material world of five elements, the glories of Vaikunthaloka and of Vaikuntha's hero, Narayana, cannot be described with the examples drawn from the world of five elements.

</blockquote>

The jiva does not get given a spiritual body by a Guru. The jiva soul will self-manifest a form that he will assume according to his desire, when he/she enters the sprititual world. This is the conclusion clearly presented in Vedanta Sutra by the sage Vyasa and in the Govinda Bhasya commentary of Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana. The same thing is presented by Sri Sanatan Goswami in Brhad Bhagatamrtam, and by Adi Shankaracharya: mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta: "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes."

 

[Guest guest]

Murlidhara here I will compare the 2 translation in the context of the section written by Srila Jiva Goswami.

 

 

3 "Anyone who faithfully hears or describes the Lord's playful affairs with the young gopis of Vrndavana will attain the Lord's pure devotional service. Thus he will quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart."

 

4 Here the word "ca" means "others also" and "atha" means "or". Thus the words "srnuyad atha varnayet" means "hears or describes". Thus one meditates on the Lord's pastimes or perceives them in other ways. "Param" means "nothing is better than this", "hrd-rogam" means "one is quickly cured of lust and other vices in the heart". In this way it is proved that the worship of Lord Krsna as He enjoys pastimes with His most beloved Sri Radha is the highest form of worship.

 

However, these pastimes are very confidential. One should not think these pastimes are like the pastimes of human beings with material senses and material relations of father, sons, servants and the like. Such an idea contradicts the true situation. Such an idea will become an impediment to one's spiritual progress. In one sense, some parts of these pastimes are especially confidential. In another sense, all of these pastimes are very confidential. In this way it should be understood. This verse was spoken by Srila Sukadeva Gosvami.

 

 

The translation above fits into the context while the translation below does not. Jiva Goswami tells us that:

 

"Anyone who faithfully hears or describes the Lord's playful affairs with the young gopis of Vrndavana will attain the Lord's pure devotional service. Thus he will quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart."

 

If that statement were to be followed by the translation you provided below then they would be in contradiction with each other. Jiva says "anyone"and then the translation you provided says "only a select few". The translation of Kusakratha makes sense in the context of the previous statement whereas the translation you use does not.

 

 

 

kintu rahasya-lila tu paurusa-vikaravad indriyaih pitr-putra-dasa-bhavais ca nopasya sviya-bhava-virodhat | rahasyatvam ca tasyah kvacid alpamsena kvacit tu sarvamseneti jeyam ||

 

"These secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant."Bhakti Sandarbha (338)

 

 

We do get warnings from the acaryas about prematurely delving into rasa lila in earnest, but they do not say that you cannot do so if you are not in the mood of the gopis or have male desires.

 

In fact Srila Prabhupada very early on printed the Krsna book and had it distributed widely by devotees to the general public en masse.

 

 

from the Krsna book:

 

 

Introduction

 

This krsna-katha will also be very much appealing to the most materialistic persons because Krsnas pastimes with the gopis (cowherd girls) are exactly like the loving affairs between young girls and boys within this material world. Actually, the sex feeling found in human society is not unnatural because this same sex feeling is there in the original Personality of Godhead. The pleasure potency is called Srimati Radharani. The attraction of loving affairs on the basis of sex feeling is the original feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we, the conditioned souls, being part and parcel of the Supreme, have such feelings also, but they are experienced within a perverted, minute condition.

 

Therefore, when those who are after sex life in this material world hear about Krsnas pastimes with the gopis, they will relish transcendental pleasure, although it appears to be materialistic. The advantage will be that they will gradually be elevated to the spiritual platform. In the Bhagavatam it is stated that if one hears the pastimes of Lord Krsna with the gopis, from authorities with submission, then he will be promoted to the platform of transcendental loving service to the Lord, and the material disease of lust within his heart will be completely vanquished. In other words, such hearing will counteract material sex life.

 

This book, Krsna, which is filled with krsna-katha, will thus appeal equally to the liberated souls and to persons who are trying to be liberated, as well as to the gross, conditioned materialist. According to the statement of Maharaja Pariksit, who heard about Krsna from Sukadeva Gosvami, krsna-katha is equally applicable to every human being, whatever condition of life he is in.

 

 

29: The Rasa Dance: Introduction

 

O dear friend of the distressed, kindly place Your hand on our burning breasts as well as on our heads, because we have surrendered unto You as Your eternal maidservants. If You think, however, that Your lotuslike palms might be burned to ashes if placed on our burning breasts, let us assure You that Your palms will feel pleasure instead of pain, as the lotus flower, although very delicate and soft, enjoys the scorching heat of the sun.

 

Upon hearing the anxious plea of the gopis, the Supreme Personality of Godhead smiled, and being very kind to the gopis, the Lord, although self-sufficient, began to embrace them and kiss them as they desired. When Krsna, smiling, looked at the faces of the gopis, the beauty of their faces became a hundred times enhanced. When He was enjoying them in their midst, He appeared just like the full moon surrounded by millions of shining stars.

 

Thus the Supreme Personality of Godhead, surrounded by hundreds of gopis and decorated with a flower garland of many colors, began to wander within the Vrndavana forest, sometimes singing to Himself and sometimes singing with the gopis. In this way the Lord and the gopis reached the cool, sandy bank of the Yamuna, where there were lilies and lotus flowers. In such a transcendental atmosphere, the gopis and Krsna began to enjoy one another. While they were walking on the bank of the Yamuna, Krsna would sometimes put His arms around a gopis head, breast or waist. Pinching one another and joking and looking at one another, they enjoyed. When Krsna touched the bodies of the gopis, their lust to embrace Him increased. They all enjoyed these pastimes.

 

 

33: Description of the Rasa Dance

 

When some of the gopis became very tired from dancing and moving their bodies, they placed their hands on the shoulders of Sri Krsna. Then their hair loosened and flowers fell to the ground. When they placed their hands on Krsnas shoulder they became overwhelmed by the fragrance of His body, which emanated from the lotus, other aromatic flowers and the pulp of sandalwood. They became filled with attraction for Him, and they began to kiss Him. Some gopis touched Krsna cheek to cheek, and Krsna began to offer them chewed betel nuts from His mouth, which they accepted with great pleasure by kissing....The gopis became tired after long singing and dancing. Krsna was dancing beside them, and to alleviate their fatigue they took Sri Krsnas hand and placed it on their raised breasts.

 

 

33: Description of the Rasa Dance

 

In the material world, pleasure is ultimately manifested in the sex attraction between man and woman. The man lives simply to be attracted by women, and the woman lives simply to be attracted by men. That is the basic principle of material life. As soon as these attractions are combined, people become more and more implicated in material existence. In order to show them special favor, Krsna exhibited this rasa-lila dance. It is just to captivate the conditioned soul. Since they are very much attracted by sex, they can enjoy the same life with Krsna and thus become liberated from the material condition.

 

In the Second Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Maharaja Pariksit also explains that the pastimes and activities of Lord Krsna are medicine for the conditioned souls. If they simply hear about Krsna, they become relieved of the material disease. They are addicted to material enjoyment and are accustomed to reading sex literature, but by hearing these transcendental pastimes of Krsna with the gopis, they will be relieved of material contamination.

 

 

22: Stealing the Garments of the Unmarried Gopi Girls

 

By practicing meditation, the yogi can study the psychic movement of other men, and certainly Krsna could understand the desire of the gopis. Appearing on the scene, Krsna immediately collected all the garments of the gopis, climbed up into a nearby tree, and with a smiling face began to speak to them.

 

My dear girls, He said, please come here one after another and pray for your garments and then take them away. Im not joking with you. Im just telling the truth. I have no desire to play any joke with you, for you are tired from observing the regulative principles for one month by worshiping goddess Katyayani. Please do not come here all at once. Come alone; I want to see each of you in your complete beauty, for you all have thin waists. I have requested you to come alone. Now please comply.

 

When the girls in the water heard such joking words from Krsna, they began to look at one another and smile. They were very joyous to hear such a request from Krsna because they were already in love with Him. Out of shyness, they looked at one another, but they could not come out of the water because they were naked. Due to remaining in the water for a long time, they felt cold and were shivering, yet upon hearing the pleasing, joking words of Govinda, their minds were perturbed with great joy.

 

They told Krsna, Dear son of Nanda Maharaja, please do not joke with us in that way. It is completely unjust to us. You are a very respectable boy because You are the son of Nanda Maharaja, and You are very dear to us, but You should not play this joke on us because now we are all shivering from the cold water. Kindly deliver our garments immediately; otherwise we shall suffer. They then began to appeal to Krsna with great submission. Dear Syamasundara, they said, we are all Your eternal servitors. Whatever You order us to do, we are obliged to perform without hesitation because we consider it our religious duty. But if You insist on putting this proposal to us, which is impossible to perform, then certainly we will have to go to Nanda Maharaja and lodge a complaint against You. If Nanda Maharaja does not take action, then we shall tell King Kamsa about Your misbehavior.

 

Upon hearing this appeal by the unmarried gopis, Krsna answered, My dear girls, if you think that you are My eternal servitors and you are always ready to execute My order, then My request is that, with your smiling faces, you please come here alone, one after another, and take away your garments. If you do not come here, however, and if you lodge complaints to My father, I shall not care anyway, for I know My father is old and cannot take any action against Me.

 

When the gopis saw that Krsna was strong and determined, they had no alternative but to abide by His order. One after another they came out of the water, but because they were completely naked, they tried to cover their nakedness by placing their left hand over their pubic area. In that posture they were all shivering. Their simple presentation was so pure that Lord Krsna immediately became pleased with them. All the unmarried gopis who prayed to Katyayani to have Krsna as their husband were thus satisfied.

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

You make some good points that devotees might like to discuss. But perhaps it will be best to discuss these topics on another thread.

 

You and I both know that these forum discussions often turn into a babel and a mess. If you don't mind, let's keep this thread for discussions about Siddha-pranali and the false belief that you get "given a spiritual body" by your guru.

[sundarananda 0]

Muralidhar das,

 

Stop claiming you know that people you don´t even know (!) have no realization. It is really very stupid.

 

Besides, would you agree on the point that it is better to think about serving Radha Krishna as a gopi/manjari than to sit around and watch cricket/football matches on tv as some gurus do nowadays?

 

Desiring to serve Radha Krishna has become a sin in your opinion.

[muralidhar_das 0]

A siddha or "perfected" devotee can give information to a disciple about swarup siddhi but they don't GIVE SIDDHA-DEHA. That is impossible because the siddha-deha of a jiva is eternally part of the jiva. Read Brhadbhagavatamrtam and Vedanta Sutra - it is stated there very clearly.

 

As I said previously, a devotee who has attained realzation of "swarup siddhi" will be able tell someone else about their spiritual name and form. They know it - they can describe and explain it. We accept that Srila Saraswati Thakur knew his swarup siddhi and that he could tell a disciple, such as Kunjada, "You are Bimala Manjari". So the proposition that a Guru can give instruction of this type is not in and of itself wrong.

 

What is VERY WRONG is that a junior (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava who is not a siddha and who has become a guru will go and tell a disciple "you are such-and-such manjari", when in fact that (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava acting as a Guru has no REAL PERCEPTION of his disciple's siddha-deha. This sort of inauthentic "tradition" has been going on for three hundred years now; however it is a fact that it is not real Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

[sundarananda 0]

Well, who has ever said that the siddha deha is given in the first place? It is you who says that there gurus giving siddha deha. If you ever read Thakur Bhaktivinode´s books you would have a clue.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Kunjabihari das babaji, Ananta das babaji, Madrasi Krishndas babaji

 

And yes, I've read Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's books.

[sundarananda 0]

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASWATI KNEW HIS SIDDHA DEHA FIRST OF ALL. AND HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THAT ALL OTHERS DO NOT KNOW THIS? YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL, BUT YOU ARE ONLY MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF.

 

"What is VERY WRONG is that a junior (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava who is not a siddha and who has become a guru will go and tell a disciple "you are such-and-such manjari", when in fact that (madhyam or kanistha) Vaishnava acting as a Guru has no REAL PERCEPTION of his disciple's siddha-deha. This sort of inauthentic "tradition" has been going on for three hundred years now; however it is a fact that it is not real Gaudiya Vaishnavism."

[muralidhar_das 0]

The answer to your question is simple, Sundarananda.

 

Ananta das babaji and the people in his group make a distinction between "siddha" Vaishnavas and non-liberated Vaishnavas. Actually it is in the scriptures, so they are right in this. They also say that a non-siddha devotee can become a Guru. They are right again, because a madhyam adhikari Guru can fulfil the service of a Guru. However when a person is given "siddha-pranali" the guru will tell them their gopi name, and only a siddha will really know this, not a madhyam or kanistha. So since they also admit that most of the gurus they accept are not siddhas, then they are accepting people as gurus who give "imaginary names and forms".

[Guest guest]

From Srila Jiva Goswami

 

tatra bhuta-suddhir nijabhilashita-bhagavat-sevopayika-tat-parshada-dehabhavana-paryantaiva tat-sevaika-purusharthibhih karya nijanukulyat | evamyatra yatratmano nijabhishta-devata-rupatvena cintanam vidhiyate tatra tatraivaparshadatve grahanam bhavyam ||Bhakti-sandarbha 286

 

"Thereupon one purifies his existence by contemplating on his own desired bhagavat-seva (service to the Lord) and parsada-deha (associate-form) suitable for such service; thus one engages in the desired service for his own auspiciousness. Thus, wherever one is, he should engage in meditating on the form of his own desired devata and in the future attain the status of an associate of His."

 

 

 

 

 

CC Madhya 22.148: "My dear Sanatana, I have now in detail described devotional service according to the regulative principles. Now hear from Me about spontaneous devotional service and its characteristics.

 

CC Madhya 22.149: "The original inhabitants of Vrndavana are attached to Krsna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called ragatmika bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vrndavana, his devotional service is called raganuga bhakti.

 

CC Madhya 22.150: "'When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his natural inclination to love is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord. That is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called ragatmika, or spontaneous devotional service.'

 

CC Madhya 22.151: "The primary characteristic of spontaneous love is deep attachment for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absorption in thought of Him is a marginal characteristic.

 

CC Madhya 22.152: "Thus devotional service which consists of raga [deep attachment] is called ragatmika, spontaneous loving service. If a devotee covets such a position, he is considered to be most fortunate.

 

CC Madhya 22.153: "If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrndavana out of such transcendental covetousness, he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of sastra. That is the way of spontaneous love.

 

CC Madhya 22.154: "'Devotional service in spontaneous love is vividly expressed and manifested by the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Devotional service that accords with their devotional service is called raganuga bhakti, or devotional service following in the wake of spontaneous loving service.'

 

CC Madhya 22.155: "'When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.'

 

 

CC Madhya 22.158: The advanced devotee who is inclined to spontaneous loving service should follow the activities of a particular associate of Krsna's in Vrndavana. He should execute service externally as a regulative devotee as well as internally from his self-realized position. Thus he should perform devotional service both externally and internally.'

 

CC Madhya 22.159:Actually the inhabitants of Vrndavana are very dear to Krsna. If one wants to engage in spontaneous loving service, he must follow the inhabitants of Vrndavana and constantly engage in devotional service within his mind.

 

CC Madhya 22.160: The devotee should always think of Krsna within himself and should choose a very dear devotee who is a servitor of Krsna in Vrndavana. One should constantly engage in topics about that servitor and his loving relationship with Krsna, and one should live in Vrndavana. If one is physically unable to go to Vrndavana, he should mentally live there.

 

CC Madhya 22.161: Krsna has many types of devotees -- some are servants, some are friends, some are parents, and some are conjugal lovers. Devotees who are situated in one of these attitudes of spontaneous love according to their choice are considered to be on the path of spontaneous loving service.

 

 

 

 

From the Caitanya Siksamrta by Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

 

 

There are two types of taste of greed: temporary and natural. Sometimes devotees hear about the qualities of Nanda or Subala, derive great bliss and sometimes show similar sentiments, but this bliss and the show of sentiments are short-lived. This is called temporary greed. There is no use in such a show.

 

It is necessary for the guru to carefully examine which rasa -dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhura-gives natural greed. Detecting ones natural sentiment, the guru will give teachings according to that mood.

 

If this is not done, then the instructed mood will not be permanent, due to the unsuitability to the disciple.

It should be noted that not all seekers will be qualified for madhurya rasa.

 

If a guru finds it impossible for him to decide the rasa of the disciple, he will honestly admit his inability to the disciple and direct him to approach a suitable guru. The disciple has no alternative but to take shelter of the lotus feet of the bona fide guru.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just because they admit that an unrealized soul can be a guru, doesn´t meant they are saying their guru parampara has any members that didn´t/don´t have true realization.

 

You seem to have misunderstood what siddha pranali is altogether. In Bhaktivinode explanation of it, the siddha deha comes to one´s awareness through hearing and chanting the Lord´s qualities, names, forms and pastimes. When the desire to attain a position in those lilas appears in the heart, and one wants to follow in the footsteps of a ragatmika bhakta, then one begins raganuga bhakti sadhana. And it is a part of sadhana bhakti, not siddha bhakti!

This sadhana includes meditating on the particular spiritual identity that one aspires for. And the guru shold be able to help the disciple in this regard, and himself having realized his spiritual identity and service, etc. And you, Muralidhar das, are not in a position to determine who has realization or not. Especially not when you have a holier than thou attitude towards all others. I know how you members of SCSM are and it is the worst of all Gaudiya Maths when it comes to sectarianism.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Point by point:

<h2>1)</h2><blockquote>

Just because they admit that an unrealized soul can be a guru, doesn´t meant they are saying their guru parampara has any members that didn´t/don´t have true realization.

</blockquote>

 

response: But if some of the people in the parampara were telling their successors an "imaginary manjari name and form" then they were giving false and misleading instructions. But anyway, Srila Gaurakishore das Babaji received diksa either from someone in the Advaita vamsa or in the line of Nityanananda Prabhu. Then Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur saw that Srila Gaurakishore das Babaji was an uttama-adhikari Vaishnava and accepted him as Guru, and never bothered telling his disciples anything much about the disksa line of Srila Gaurakishore das Babaji. Why would he? It doesn't matter. Just as in the Bhagavatam where we see that so many souls accept an uttama-adhikari Vaishnava as Guru and then never ask him "what is your lineage".

 

<blockquote>Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

Suppose a scientist researches some truth. After a few generations, another scientist comes and takes up that thread and continues his research. Then after a few more generations, another comes and takes up that thread and goes on. If we are to understand the real channel through which the particular research is progressing, we will have to study the important thinkers who helped bring it out. We see that Copernicus has contributed something before Galileo began, then Newton came. Then there may be a gap for some time, and from Newton, we find that Einstein took it up. In this way, there may be a gap, but still that thread is continued. An intelligent man will see that it began with a particular person, and then it came to another, and then came here. That will be the proper line of research. So, in the spiritual line this also holds true.

</blockquote>

<h2>2)</h2><blockquote>

You seem to have misunderstood what siddha pranali is altogether. In Bhaktivinode explanation of it, the siddha deha comes to one´s awareness through hearing and chanting the Lord´s qualities, names, forms and pastimes. When the desire to attain a position in those lilas appears in the heart, and one wants to follow in the footsteps of a ragatmika bhakta, then one begins raganuga bhakti sadhana. And it is a part of sadhana bhakti, not siddha bhakti!

</blockquote>

 

response:

Yes I fully agree that when a soul desires to render service in Vraja under the guidance of a ragatmika bhakta then one begins raganuga sadhana. This of course is what I stated in my first post on this thread, quoting Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291.

 

If one feels attracted to a particular rasa and meditates upon the feelings that your "favourite" ragatmika Vrajabasi is experiencing, then your own inner feelings and a realization of your own spiritual body will awaken within you at the appropriate time. Further to this, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada wrote:

<blockquote>

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.9.3

TRANSLATION

Dressed in a saffron-yellow sari, with a belt tied about her full hips, mother Yasoda- pulled on the churning rope, laboring considerably, her bangles and earrings moving and vibrating and her whole body shaking. Because of her intense love for her child, her breasts were wet with milk. Her face, with its very beautiful eyebrows, was wet with perspiration, and malati flowers were falling from her hair.

 

PURPORT

Anyone who desires to be Krsna conscious in motherly affection or parental affection should contemplate the bodily features of mother Yasoda. It is not that one should desire to become like Yasoda-, for this is Mayavada. Either in parental affection or conjugal love, friendship or servitorship — in any way — we must follow in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vr?nda-vana, not try to become like them. Therefore this description is provided here. Advanced devotees must cherish this description, always thinking of mother Yasoda's features — how she was dressed, how she was working and perspiring, how beautifully the flowers were arranged in her hair, and so on. One should take advantage of the full description provided here by thinking of mother Yasoda in maternal affection for Krsna.

</blockquote>

 

<h2>3)</h2><blockquote>

This sadhana includes meditating on the particular spiritual identity that one aspires for. And the guru shold be able to help the disciple in this regard, and himself having realized his spiritual identity and service, etc.

</blockquote>

 

Yes the Guru should be able to help the disciple. If he has realized his spiritual identity and service, etc. Like I said earlier, I agree that a siddha-Vaishnava can tell his disciple about the disciple's eternal spiritual body. (I disagree with Kunjabihari das babaji of course, since he says that you get GIVEN a spiritual body by your guru.)

 

But there is also this to consider, too. In Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Bhajana-rahasya he said the following:

<blockquote>

adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave

viparyaya buddhi janme saktira abhave

"If one thinks of their siddha-deha without achieving the adhikara (necessary realization), their intelligence gets bewildered."

</blockquote>

This is especially the case for men who still from time to time imagine themself as "masculine" and who desire to enjoy sex with women. How can a man who still lusts for woman appreciate the real feelings felt by the gopis? What people get, when they meditate on these things in an immature stage, is merely a shadow or a semblence of madhura rasa. And since the possibility for commiting offences in that sacred arena is there this type of meditation is dangerous.

 

Jagat and Tinkori das babaji's disciple Nitai have both delved into this "erotic" stuff and both of them ended up studying and commending sahajiya sex practices as methods of spiritual practice. Need we look any further than them, when considering if this type of meditation is useful for neophytes? Gadadhar Pran also enjoys illicit relations with his ladies, and calls himself a guru, and gives people "siddha-pranali". Is that Bhakti? I don't believe it is!

 

Consider this, also:

<blockquote>

Sripad Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaj:

Srila Prabhupada called our disciplic succession the Bhagavata-parampara. Why did he give it this name? Normally, people give a list of Gosvamis' names—all those who belonged to that particular family of gurus. Sometimes these include women. Was every one of these people a perfected soul or siddha? What do we mean by siddha? There are sadhakas or aspirants for perfection and siddhas, or those who have attained perfection. The name is there, siddha-pranali, but it is not enough just to have a name. Have they all attained perfection on the path of devotion? Devotion begins with practices that we call sadhana. But when one becomes perfected in these practices, he is called siddha. The characteristics of someone who is on the platform of perfection are described in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Amongst other things, the siddha is omniscient.

 

avijnatakhila-klesah sada krsnasrita-kriyah

siddhah syuh santata-prema-saukhyasvada-parayanah

 

'The siddhas have no awareness of any material suffering. All their actions are consecrated to Krsna and they are only engaged in constantly relishing the joys of love for Krsna.'

(Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 2.1.280)

</blockquote>

<h2>4)</h2><blockquote>

And you, Muralidhar das, are not in a position to determine who has realization or not. Especially not when you have a holier than thou attitude towards all others. I know how you members of SCSM are and it is the worst of all Gaudiya Maths when it comes to sectarianism.

</blockquote>

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

I am a disciple of Srila Ananta das Babaji.

I am very happy with it.

I am very happy to have received siddha-pranali.

 

Who are you, murlidhara, to judge exalted souls like the present Mahanta of Radhakunda?

 

Did you talk to him?

Bringers of light, huh?

 

Your remarks about the recluded saints at Sri Radhakunda is just very insulting and totally offensive.

 

Maybe some people are just envious and secretly desire to be situated at the lotus feet of a genuine guru.

 

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[muralidhar_das 0]

Let me tell you something....

 

The scriptures say that you NEVER get given a spiritual body by your Guru.

 

If a Vaishnava can see your soul he can say to you what he is seeing. But no Vaishnava will ever give you a spiritual body because this is not the way things happen. Anyone who teaches something contrary to this is teaching a mistaken philosophy.

 

Bas.

 

End of story.

 

I feel no envy of Ananta das Babaji. He has nothing I want.

 

And why should I need to approach him when I already got everthing I need from Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj, a sincere disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada.

 

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj gave me this mantra:

 

HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE

HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE

 

I don't feel envious of Ananta das Babaji since there is nothing I need or want from him. I need nothing more than this HARE KRISHNA MANTRA, which I received from a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada. This mantra is all anyone needs in order to attain the perfectional stage as a servitor of the lotus feet of Sri Rupa Manjari in Vraja.

 

Study Brhadbhagavatamrtam, written by Srila Sanatan Goswami, very carefully. Indeed it is in Brhadbhagavatamrtam where we can see very clearly that a jiva never needs to learn about "siddha-pranali" in order to enter into the lila in Goloka. Such knowledge is unnecessary. Nor do you need to learn about ekadasa bhava. All a soul needs is this HARE KRISHNA MANTRA.

 

It is unnecessary and perhaps injurious to give newcomers instructions about siddha-deha, as the scriptures clearly explain that you will get that knowlege when you reach the stage where you need that knowledge. Again, what is the value for a man to meditate on his siddha-deha just before he is going into his bedroom to engage in a different type of meditation: the meditation upon the form of a lingam that a man enjoys when he is practicing making babies with his wife. If a man enjoys that meditation upon the form of a lingam sometimes, then he hasn't reached the stage of devotion where meditation upon his siddha-deha is appropriate. Excuse me if this statement seems impolite, but the statement is certainly true.

 

If you got this HARE KRISHNA MANTRA from Ananta das Babaji then I believe you can attain perfection through that mantra. What more can I say than this?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"I feel no envy of Ananta das Babaji. He has nothing I want."

 

That is sad.

Why not have an open-mind?

Why this: "only ISKCON/GM is real?"

 

Many people like you tell me this. Many won´t dare to read any of his books.

 

"Only the books of our Gurudeva are real."

 

Sad story.

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

<h2>Each to his own</h2>

19) After many, many births, the knowledgable person who happens to attain the association of a pure devotee finally comes to understand that the whole universe of moving and stationary being is of the nature of Vasudeva alone, inasmuch as all are subordinate to Vasudeva. Having grasped this conception he surrenders unto Me. Know such a great soul to be extremely rare.

 

20) Persons whose good intelligence has been spoiled by illicit desires for exploitation and renunciation or other duplicitous pursuits worship other godly personalities such as the Sun-god and the many gods. Being enslaved by their instinct, they adopt the corresponding rules and regulations of fasting and other tenets accordingly.

 

21) According to whichever god representing a form of Me a particular devotee desires to worship faithfully, I, as the Supersoul dwelling within his heart, make his faith strong for the deity of his choice.

 

22) After being endowed with this firm faith by Me, such a devotee goes on worshiping the deity of that god, and gains all his desired objects from that deity. Certainly this is enacted by My sanction alone, since I am the Supersoul situated within the heart of the demigod also.

 

23) But the fruit obtained by those provincially interested worshipers of the various demigods is temporary. They reach their respective gods, but My devotees obtain Me.

 

24) My eternal superexcellent nature, form, qualities, activities, pastimes, and associated paraphernalia are all transcendental to illusion. But unintelligent men, unable to know this reality, think of Me thus: 'Oh, the supra-mundane, formless impersonal Brahman has recently accepted birth in an illusory form in Vasudeva's prison chamber in the dungeon of Kamsa.'

 

25) By My own sweet will, remaining concealed by an illusory image, I am not manifest to anyone and everyone. Therefore, non of these foolish persons can ever really know Me as the son of Vasudeva, who am independent of mundane birth and ever-existent in My divine personal Syamasundara form of beautiful feature like a blackish rain-cloud.

 

 

[Guest guest]

<font color="blue">

an unknown guest said

 

 

Why not have an open-mind?

Why this: "only ISKCON/GM is real?"

 

Many people like you tell me this. Many won´t dare to read any of his books.

 

"Only the books of our Gurudeva are real."

 

Sad story.

</font color="blue">

 

Ananta Dasa Babaji Maharaja rejects Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. He doesn't accept Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati as a bonafide guru. Why should any of us study the books of Ananta Dasa Babaji since Ananta Dasa Babaji rejects Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati?

[Guest guest]

the sweet-scented tobacco

 

 

 

Muralidhar das has said that a guru who uses tobacco should be rejected as unqualified.

 

 

 

It is well-known (talk to gurukulis and senior Prabhupada disciples if you need to confirm this for yourself) that Prabhupada used tobacco. So is this why Muralidhar has rejected Prabhupada and gone to Sridhar Maharaj instead?