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Jiva Falls Down- The Conclution

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<font color="red">Letter to: Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970:</font color> Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

 

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

 

<font color="red"> Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26</font color> PURPORT:

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuntha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuntha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

 

In Bhagavad-gita (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gita the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhagavatam.

____

 

 

Now this is where it took place /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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This topic may well have sparked more sincere thought about Sri Krsna and the nature of soul than anything else ever has. Perhaps Srila Prabhupada and Krsna created and left this paradox for us intentionally for the munis to spar over.

 

A man will be known by his position on the "fall". The blades of grass won't get too heated over it though. They know they are fallen, and if they were there they really don't remember, so it doesn't matter much at all either way or both ways. Only that big fish knows for sure.

 

 

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What's the point of doing so much Sadhana for millions of Births if in the end we can fall-down from Goloka! Your pupose is defeated even before you start.! I remember a devotee in Iskcon told me this, at the time I accepted it. I thought within myself, when I get to Goloka I better be careful what I do in case Krishna kicks me out. [That sort of destroys the fun of going to Goloka in the first place!]

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BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA

 

 

MURWILLUMBAH, AUSTRALIA, Apr 9 (VNN) — The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall From Goloka

 

Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 16, 2002

 

Come with me now to Godruma in Navadvipa Dhama, where Sannyasi Thakura asks a question to his guru, Paramahamsa Babaji Maharaja. He told him, "For a long time I have heard of the pre-eminence of dharma. On numerous occasions I have asked the question to many people, 'What is dharma?' And, it is a cause of distress to me that those peoples' answers contradict each other. So please tell me, what is the true constitutional dharma of the jivas, and why do different teachers explain the nature of dharma in such diverse ways? If dharma is one, why don't all learned teachers cultivate that universal dharma which is one without a second?"

 

Paramahamsa Babaji Maharaja replied, "Religion is one, and that religion is love and affection for the Supreme Lord. Only this love and affection is real Vaisnava-dharma, Sanatana-dharma, or Bhagavad-dharma. This sometimes transforms, however, as water transforms into ice, or fog, or steam. When it becomes ice, one can throw it at anyone and it will cause injury, but water will not do so. Similarly, love for Krsna, the intrinsic mood of the jiva, has now been transformed. Now we love each other, or we love dogs, cats, our own bodies, or boyfriends and girlfriends, and this is called anitya-dharma. That love originally comes from Goloka Vrndavana. That love is in the heart of jivas, but now it has been transformed, as water transforms into ice when the temperature is low. Due to maya, our real dharma, prema for Krsna, has now been transformed and changed, and now we are 'loving' each other. In this world, 'love' is perverted and has become lust, but in its pure stage, it is love and affection for Krsna and it comes from the hearts of the gopis and Vrajavasis.

 

Paramahamsa Babaji Maharaja quoted Caitanya-caritamrta:

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya – krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

 

["It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy." (Cc Madhya 20.108-109)]

 

krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

 

["Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore, the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence." (Cc Madhya 20.117)]

 

We are eternally Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we are Krsna bhuli; we have forgotten Him. The words 'krsna bhuli' are used here. It means 'the jiva forgets Krsna', but what does this actually mean? It seems to mean that the jiva was once engaged in Krsna's service, but now he has forgotten that service. Actually, this is not true. This is not the meaning. There is defect in worldly languages. They are not perfect, and therefore they cannot purely express what is the nature of our svarupa (constitutional form). To clarify the meaning of 'krsna bhuli', Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes in the next line, "krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa.'"

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has clearly explained all these truths. You should very carefully note this down in your heart and on your paper. He took his understanding from Srila Sanatana Gosvami's Srimad-Bhagavatam and from Sri Jiva Gosvami's Sat-sandarpa, and then he wrote:

 

[Pundarika dasa reads from Jaiva Dharma, Chapter Sixteen:] "Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky. Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always favorable to Him. By virtue of the spiritual sakti, they have the strength to stay fixed in their devotion, and they have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they are unaware that there is a deluding energy called maya. Since they reside in the spiritual world, maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all. Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear."

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] They are all liberated. They don't know what is maya and what is this material world. Who knows? We know. We have come from tatastha-sakti, from a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu called Karanabdisayi Visnu, who is situated on the marginal line, in the Karanabdhi (Causal Ocean). The jivas are not coming to this world from Goloka Vrndavana, nor are they coming from Vaikuntha. They are coming form the marginal line, from the glance of Karanabdhisayi Visnu. Among them, those who look towards Vaikuntha are liberated, and they go there at once without delay. Conversely, those who look toward this world will come here.

 

Jivas are independent because Krsna has made them so. This independence is like a special jewel, and the jivas can use it properly or misuse it. If they using it well, they will quickly go towards Vaikuntha, and if they misuse it they will have to suffer.

 

Here is an example. If you have a sharp sword or knife and you drop some very small and round mustard seeds on it so that they falls in the middle of the sword, some will fall over to one side and some will fall to the other. The jiva has got some independence to go here or there. This is not the fault of Krsna, but rather it is their independence to look here and there. If they look towards Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana, Yogamaya will at once help them and they will go there. On the other hand, those who look towards the material world will be attracted by Mahamaya. Krsna is not at fault here.

 

You cannot understand this in your present stage, but when you come in our stage, then you will realize something. At present you should chant, follow your guru, and follow all these teachings. Don't conclude that the jivas have come from Goloka. Although Srila Swami Maharaja never said that the jivas fell from Goloka, some of his disciples try to prove that he has said the opposite. But I know the truth. He has told me, and it is also in sastra. Srimati Syamarani dasi has collected so many of Srila Swami Maharaja words, confirming that he never accepted that the jivas came from Goloka Vrndavana.

 

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

 

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (Bg 15.6)

 

Goloka is such a dhama that there is no maya. Rather, only Yogamaya is there. A person who is seriously chanting, remembering and following, passes through the stages of sraddha, nistha, ruci, asakti, and prema, after a long, long, long time. If he has gone to Goloka Vrndavana Dhama and is serving Krsna, there is no chance at all to fall down. There is no example at all in the Vedas, Upanisads, or any other scriptures.

 

Srila Gour-Govinda Swami used to say very boldly that those who wear big kanti-mala and chant, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna," at the same time being duplicitous, hypocritical and critical, are kali-cela, disciples of Kali. They are not Vaisnavas because they have none of the symptom of a Vaisnava. Such persons think that they can vote to determine siddhanta or to determine who is acarya or guru. This is totally against Vaisnava law. Experts are experts. Guru is guru.

 

Who made Srila Swami Maharaja guru? Has Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura made him acarya? Has he given him a certificate saying, "After me you will be acarya, and you will do such and such"? It's ones own service that makes one acarya or guru. There was no duplicity in him, and he was very kind and merciful to all. He realized this fact and he served like that. Similarly, Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has not made our Guru Maharaja an acarya. He did not tell him, "After me, you shall be acarya," but still he has become a very famous acarya – strong like a lion. Those who serve their Gurudeva properly will become acarya. Who made Sri Sukadeva Gosvami acarya? Who made Sri Jiva Gosvami acarya? Who made Srila Gour-Govinda Maharaja acarya? Who made Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura acarya? Has Srila Gaura Kisora Dasa Babaji Maharaja told him, "After me you should be acarya"? Those who serve their gurus properly, following the footprints of our guru-parampara and especially of Gaura-Nityananda Prabhu, will automatically be recognized throughout the world as acarya.

 

It would be quite absurd to think that liberated souls in Goloka Vrndavana can ever be covered by maya. You should have strong faith that the jivas did not fall from there. They have come from the marginal point. They have come from Karanabdhisayi Visnu and from tatastha-sakti. Jiva himself is tatastha-sakti.

 

[srimati Syamarani dasi:] Throughout Srila Prabhupada's books he confirms Srila Gurudeva's statements that the jiva never fell from Goloka Vrndavana. In the First Canto Srimad-Bhagavatam, first chapter, first verse, last line, it's stated:

 

dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi

 

Srila Vyasadeva says, "I meditate on that Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who eternally resides in His own abode which forever free from the illusory representations of this material world. This means that at no time is there any amount of maya in Krsna's abode. In the Third Canto Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the history of Jaya and Vijaya, Pariksit Maharaja asks Sukadeva Gosvami, "How is it possible that Jaya and Vijaya could have fallen down from that realm? I don't believe it." Any pure devotee will not believe it. Srila Prabhupada writes in the purport of the Seventh Canto, Chapter 1 (Text 35), "Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha." Jaya and Vijaya had a desire to please the Lord. All the associates of the Lord have only one desire: to give Him pleasure.

 

Lord Narayana has a desire to enjoy vira-rasa, the mood or humor of chivalry. But who will He fight with in Vaikuntha? Everyone there worships Him in awe and reverence. Jaya and Vijaya were desiring, "We should do something to fulfill this desire." Then, knowing that they had that desire to please Him, Lord Narayana called on Yogamaya to arrange for the four Kumaras to come and for the gatekeepers Jaya and Vijaya to be cursed to come to the material world as demons. Actually, they never came here and became demons. Only a part of them manifested in this world in order to give the Lord pleasure. Bhagavan came in the form of Lord Nrsimhadeva and Lord Varaha to fight with their manifestations, and the complete and original Jaya and Vijaya remained in Vaikuntha as gatekeepers.

 

In Prabhupada's translation of Caitanya-caritamrta, Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed Sanatana Gosvami that there are two kinds of living entities. Those who are eternal associates of the Lord have never seen the material world, and those who are conditioned jivas, who have come to this material world, have never yet seen that world. Mahaprabhu made a distinction between the two. He said that apart from one, there is the other.

 

'nitya-mukta' – nitya krsna-carane unmukha

'krsna-parisada' nama, bhunje seva-sukha

 

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna." (Cc Madhya 22.11)

 

'nitya-bandha' – krsna haite nitya-bahirmukha

'nitya-samsara', bhunje narakadi duhkha

 

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions." (Cc Madhya 22.12)

 

Caitanya Mahaprabhu also explained to Sri Sanatana Gosvami that beyond the Viraja river, which is the dividing point between the material and spiritual worlds, there is no maya, what to speak of in the Vaikuntha planets or in the highest planet, Goloka Vrndavana.

 

karanabdhi-pare mayara nitya avasthiti

virajara pare paravyome nahi gati

 

"The Viraja, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual and the material world. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and it cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky." (Cc Madhya 20.269)

 

It's not that this is a new teaching or something that is hidden deep in Caitanya-caritamrta. I joined Prabhupada in New York in October, 1966, and two months later I heard him speak this same thing in his morning class. [Dec. 17, 1966: Karanabdhi-pare. Just on the other side of the Causal Ocean, this material energy is situated. Virajara pare paravyome nahi gati. And this material energy has no entrance in the spiritual kingdom.

 

Now, the description of the spiritual world is that there is no rajas-tamah. These modes of passion and modes of ignorance is not there. Suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means simply goodness, pure goodness, without any tinge of passion and ignorance. So pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh sattvam ca misram na ca kala-vikramah. There is no mixed goodness; simply goodness. And na ca kala-vikramah: And there is no influence of time. This is the description of the spiritual world: There is no modes of passion, and there is no modes of ignorance, and there is no influence of time." That means there is simply pure goodness. And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything.]

 

Srila Gurudeva often quotes a verse from Bhagavad-gita, as does Prabhupada. In his translation and commentary of Bhagavad-gita, Prabhupada writes that when one experiences a higher taste, he leaves the lower taste.

 

visaya vinivartante

niraharasya dehinah

rasa-varjam raso 'py asya

param drstva nivartate

 

["The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness." (Bg 2.59)]

 

One gives up lower engagements when he experiences a higher taste. Even in the stage of ruci, taste, one has no desire for material pleasures. In asakti, in bhava, what to speak of prema, and what to speak of the devotees who are enraptured, enjoying the pleasures of Goloka Vrndavana; there is no desire for such mundane pleasures. Krsna says in the Gita that one who takes shelter of His spiritual energy is free from maya. That spiritual energy is Yogamaya, and Yogamaya is an expansion of Srimati Radhika. For one who serves Radha and Krsna, there is no question of every having the desire to come to this material world.

 

Someone wrote Prabhupada a letter and asked, "Did we ever see Krsna?" Prabhupada replied, "Yes, we saw Krsna, just as the child was with the father before coming out of the mother's womb."

 

["Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father." (Letter to Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970)]

 

In other words, he was saying that we never saw Krsna. We were with Krsna because we came from Krsna – from His tatastha-sakti. That person who came out of his mother's womb never actually associated with the father previously. Later on he meets his father.

 

[Gokula dasa:] Actually, within ISKCON there was two or three

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I know. I have read them. Srila Swami Maharaja sometimes gave baby food to babies. When I give a baby medicine like quinine, I tell him, "Baby, baby, it is very sweet." I'm telling him something that is not true so that I can give him the medicine. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja has written to someone who was very low in bhakti. A letter cannot always be proof. What Srila Swami Maharaja has written in Caitanya-caritamrta and in his Gita and Bhagavata explanation is authentic. These are proofs. He can write something else for a little baby, but it is not proof.

 

[Gokula dasa:] Srila Gour-Govinda Maharaja said that he was doing it to encourage them. Otherwise

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes, certainly. Someone may say that Citraketu Maharaja fell down, and this is proof that the jiva fell from Goloka. Actually, however, he has never fallen down. He is a liberated soul. He came to see his friend, Sankara Mahadeva, when Sankara was sitting naked with the very beautiful Uma Parvati on His lap. Citraketu began joking with him, because a friend can joke with another friend when both on the same level. Citraketu Maharaja was not less than Sankara. He was Sankara's god-brother, and fully liberated. He told him, "What are you doing? You're quite naked, and at the same time you're taking this beautiful young lady on your lap. What will everyone think?" He was laughing, and Sankara was also smiling, but Parvati could not tolerate his joking statements. She at once cursed him, saying, "You should become a demon."

 

Sankara became upset and told Parvati, "You have done wrong. He is a liberated soul. Whether he is in this world, or here or there, he will be a devotee. He cannot be transformed at all. He has the power to resist your curse, but see how humble he is; because he is a Vaisnava. He is beyond hankering and lamentation, and therefore he tolerated your words and accepted your curse. If he wished, he could have also cursed you; but he did not do so."

 

Citraketu Maharaja willingly came to establish this truth – that whether a devotee is in this world or in hell, he will glorify his Prabhu and give instructions to all to serve Krsna. It was for this reason that, for a very short time, he became the demon Vrtrasura. When he was in the body of that demon, his enemy, Indra, was in great wonder, thinking, "How can I kill him? He's telling me, 'Kill me. I cannot serve my Prabhu in this body. So kill me,' but I cannot." Even Indra's thunderbolt failed.

 

Vrtrasura prayed:

 

ajata-paksa iva mataram khagah

stanyam yatha vatsatarah ksudh-artah

priyam priyeva vyusitam visanna

mano 'ravindaksa didrksate tvam

 

["O lotus-eyed Lord, as baby birds that have not yet developed their wings always look for their mother to return and feed them, as small calves tied with ropes await anxiously the time of milking, when they will be allowed to drink the milk of their mothers, or as a morose wife whose husband is away from home always longs for him to return so that she can satisfy him in all respects, I always yearn for the opportunity to render direct service unto You." (SB 6.11.26)]

 

This is a highly elevated verse. Here, Vrtrasura's mood to serve Krsna is like that of the gopis. By this prayer, Srila Vyasadeva and Sukadeva Gosvami have glorified the love and affection of gopis. So Citraketu Maharaja did not fall from Goloka Vrndavana. He came only to establish these truths.

 

When Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya. They remained there in Vaikuntha and their manifestations came here to act like demons. Jaya and Vijaya can have so many forms, just as Yasoda has unlimited forms, and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes, in each universe there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana. We cannot imagine this. Brahma has said that a person may be able to count the stars in the sky and the sands on the earth, but he will not be able to glorify the sweet pastimes of Krsna.

 

It is absurd to think that any jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana. Any liberated soul can come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious souls.

 

Try to remember Krsna and follow this doctrine: God is one, there is one religion, and that religion is love and affection for the Supreme Lord Krsna.

 

Gaura Premanande!

 

[Devotee:] You said that Krsna's associates go with Him to the innumerable universes and they have so many expansions. Does that also apply to the sadhana-siddha jiva? In other words, if we ever become perfect, do we also go to all those places, all those universes, at the same time, along with Krsna?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If you will be perfect like them, then you can go. A perfect devotee, one who always remembers the asta-kaliya-lila of Radha and Krsna, will go to Goloka Vrndavana. Those who always worship Gaura-Nityananda Prabhu, always remembering Their pastimes, will go to Svetadvipa. Those who remember both Gauranga and Radha-Krsna and want to serve both, have two svarupas, and they go to both places. There are so many universes, and there is Svetadvipa and Vrndavana. Such perfect and liberated souls will be in all these places.

 

[Radhanatha dasa:] Citraketu Maharaja was initiated with a sankarsana-mantra. How would he be able to have a mood like the gopis?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If by taking mantra from my Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Maharaja, I can have this, then why, by taking the mantra from Baladeva Prabhu, would one not be like the gopis?

 

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] Baladeva Prabhu is the undivided guru-tattva.

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] It may be that he did not have that at first, but later on he may have attained it. Narada Muni gave him the mantra. Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat-Kumara were originally jnani-bhaktas, but later they began chanting and remembering asta-kaliya-lila and now they are gurus of asta-kaliya-lila. How can you say they are still jnani-bhaktas? It may be that they are real Vrajabasis. Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat-Kumara have so many forms, as do Subala and Sridama, and they also have forms like the gopis. Otherwise, how would they be able to teach the truths about the gopis to Narada Gosvami? Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat-kumara have explained their asta-kaliya-lila to Narada. They are the gurus of Narada. If they don't know about that lila and they are not practicing that meditation and service, how can they explain it to Narada? Don't have any doubt in this.

 

Transcribers: Yamuna dasi, Madhuri dasi, and Vrndavanesvari dasi

Editor: Syamarani dasi

Typist: Radhika dasi

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[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I know. I have read them. Srila Swami Maharaja sometimes gave baby food to babies. When I give a baby medicine like quinine, I tell him, "Baby, baby, it is very sweet." I'm telling him something that is not true so that I can give him the medicine. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja has written to someone who was very low in bhakti. A letter cannot always be proof. What Srila Swami Maharaja has written in Caitanya-caritamrta and in his Gita and Bhagavata explanation is authentic. These are proofs. He can write something else for a little baby, but it is not proof.

 

 

 

Such persons think that they can vote to determine siddhanta or to determine who is acarya or guru. This is totally against Vaisnava law. Experts are experts. Guru is guru.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada has given the conclusion.

 

Agree or disagree with him?

 

Get your votes in pronto!

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I disagree with the idea that the jiva souls were originally in Goloka and that they fell down.

 

The basis of why I reject this idea is that this idea has no support in any scripture. You won't find it anywhere at all in the scriptures.

 

And Srila Sanatan Goswami, Jiva Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakur, Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur and many other acharyas have said, in their writings, that the jiva originates in the Brahman effulgence so I accept their conclusion as correct.

 

Need I give the quotes from all these Acharyas - they have been given many times before, in regard to this issue?

 

I know that Srila Prabhupada said that the jiva fell from Goloka. But he also said that a woman's brain is half the size of a mans. It isn't.

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I know that Srila Prabhupada said that the jiva fell from Goloka.

__

 

 

If you read the following letter, the questions asked by the devotee and the answers given by Prabhupada are according to the devotional progress of that devotee.

 

Letter to: Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970: Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

 

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

__

 

Then read above Bhagavatam quote where it says 'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.' Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26.

 

You cannot really argue with the above statement. CONCLUTION. Gaura hari

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I disagree with the idea that the jiva souls were originally in Goloka and that they fell down.

 

The basis of why I reject this idea is that this idea has no support in any scripture. You won't find it anywhere at all in the scriptures.

 

 

Oh yeah mister!?

 

Take a look at SB 4.28 and Srila Prabhupada's commentary! How you like them (falling) apples? So what previous Acaryas comment differently!

 

Don't mind that our falling-apple-vada has Srila Prabhupada contradicting himself, shastra and previous Acaryas! Giving a different siddhanta /images/graemlins/shocked.gif And we're not buying into any wild ideas about f-a-v being an example of his superb preaching! Giving medicine to babies and what not. Balderdash! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

 

Need I give the quotes from all these Acharyas - they have been given many times before, in regard to this issue?

 

 

Sure go ahead. We have Acarya and Shastra too. Our (mis)quotes show apples can fall from the tree. And it is the real truth because......we believe so.

 

We are in pursuit of the truth! That's how we came to our conclusion. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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The Fall of the Jiva

It is well known that Srila Narayana Maharaja rejects the idea that the conditioned souls in this world were once with Krsna in the spiritual world, serving Him with love. This issue has been debated back and forth for years, and after exhaustive consideration of all the evidence, in 1995 the GBC resolved (#79-80):

 

1. Vaikuntha is that place from which no one ever falls down. The living entity belongs to Lord Krsna's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). On this we all agree. The origin of the conditioned life of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him:

 

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

No ISKCON devotee shall present or publish any contrary view as conclusive in any class or seminar or any media (print, video, electronic, etc.).

 

80) The GBC suggests that devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.:

__

 

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic Paper [excerpt]

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, <font color="red"> dream </font color> is there. We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

 

[end of GBC resolution excerpt]

---

 

PANKaja: I guess that is the history of Jiva-falldown. But Prabhupada says in Bhagavatam: 'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.' Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26. The above where it says 'FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT' Can be reffering to the Tatastha-shakti. I mean also Prabhupada said to refer to BR Sridhara Maharaja and He says we Never fell from Goloka. So there is the conclution, if you believe when Prabhupada said to goto Sridhara Maharaja, then you believe Him.

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Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972

-

 

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

 

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

 

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This line below is the controversial line:

====================

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna.

====================

 

 

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"Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport."

But the Brahma Samhita says differently:

---------------------

 

Sri Brahma-samhita TEXT 21

 

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah

prakrtis ca paraiva sa

 

SYNONYMS

sah--that (jiva); nityah--eternal; nitya-sambandhah--possessing an eternal relationship; prakrtih--potency; ca--and; para--spiritual; eva--certainly; sa--that.

 

TRANSLATION

The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

PURPORT

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyer, meditator and doer. Krsna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect of the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Gita it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has <font color="#ff0000">no beginning.</font>

 

The translator of Brahma Samhita gives his vote.

 

Jivas are particles of Godhead's effulgent rays. The jiva souls have been in the clutches of Maya from a time that has no beginning.

 

 

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This line below is the controversial line:

====================

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna.

====================

 

 

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya

--

 

Your not reading it right. Read it carefully. Take it ALL in. And chant 1 Maha-mantra before you do it as well. Dandavats

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What are you arguing Pankaj? That "on the basis of Jaya and Vijaya" the souls in this world have all falled down from Vaikuntha just like Jaya and Vijaya?

 

The idea that all souls have fallen is refuted in the quote from Brahma samhita:

 

"Jivas are particles of Godhead's effulgent rays. The jiva souls have been in the clutches of Maya from a time that has no beginning."

 

"Jivas are particles of Godhead's effulgent rays. The jiva souls have been in the clutches of Maya from a time that has no beginning."

 

"Jivas are particles of Godhead's effulgent rays. The jiva souls have been in the clutches of Maya from a time that has no beginning."

 

 

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That the example Prabhupada is giving is of Jaya and Vijaya. There is some more quotes I paste here now, sorry about the marking they from PDF:

 

Sorry to just click/paste, but you might not have seen these before.::

 

“The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” (Çrémad-Bhägavatam 3.16.26)

 

“According to Viñëu Purana, Bhagavad-gétä and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the taöasthä energy of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic.” (Çrémad Bhägavatam 3.7.9)

 

 

“The mature devotees, who have completely executed Kåñëa

consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Kåñëa is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST opportunity to associate with Kåñëa personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in våndävana-lélä.” (Kåñëa Book: Chapter Twenty-eight)

 

 

“In further reference to your question about the form of the spirit soul of the conditioned living entity; there is a spiritual form always, but it develops fully ONLY when the living entity goes back to Vaikuntha. This form develops according to the desire of the living

entity. Until this perfectional stage is reached, the form is lying dormant like the form of a tree is lying dormant in the seed.” (Letter to Rupanaga:1969)

 

 

“From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viñëu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal

potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamayä, not mahämayä. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that NO ONE FALLS FROM VAIKUNTHA.” (Çrémad Bhägavatam 7.1.35)

 

 

Mahäräja Yudhisthira inquired: “What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viñëu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.” (Çrémad Bhägavatam 7.1.34)

 

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The sweetness of material bliss is not even 1/100 of 1/100 of 1/100....... etc of one measure of the bliss of brahman. And the bliss of brahman is not even 1/100000000000000^n of one measure of the ever fresh bliss in Vaikuntha derived from Hari seva.

 

So how is it that someone would desire to play as independent lord over maya? Would desire to give up a better taste for an inferior taste? It isn't.

 

bg 2.59

 

The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness

 

purport: ...When one is <font color="brown">actually Krsna conscious</font color>, he automatically loses his taste for pale things

 

sb 1.5.19

 

My dear Vyasa, even though a devotee of Lord Krishna sometimes falls down somehow or other, he certainly does not undergo material existence like others [fruitive workers, etc.] because a person who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again.

 

purport: ...Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A <font color="brown">pure devotee</font color> continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds.

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Mahäräja Yudhisthira inquired: “What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viñëu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.” (Çrémad Bhägavatam 7.1.34)

 

No one falls from Krsna's abode. Jivas fall down from the tathasta region or marginal place in between the material and spiritual worlds.

 

If 'jivas fell from Krsnaloka' that would make Maya more powerful than Krsna - an impossible position and not an original position.

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to use the example of Jaya and Vijaya in explaining the origins of jiva is hardly appropriate, as their situation was very, very special and not at all typical for living entities... the vast majority of Vaishnava scholars see the jivas in this world as originating mostly from the Viraja stream of Brahman effulgence. and that makes perfect sense.

 

while one can argue that a fall from Goloka (and Jaya and Vijaya were NOT in Goloka) is at least theoretically possible, that has little value in the consideration of the jiva's original position.

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bg 2.59

 

The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness

 

purport: ...When one is actually Krsna conscious, he automatically loses his taste for pale things

 

sb 1.5.19

 

My dear Vyasa, even though a devotee of Lord Krishna sometimes falls down somehow or other, he certainly does not undergo material existence like others [fruitive workers, etc.] because a person who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again.

 

purport: ...Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds.

 

 

Vraja Vilasa Stava 39:

 

tRNIkRtya sphAram sukha-jalAdbhi-sAraM sphuTamapi

svakIyaM premNA ye bhara-nikara-namrA mura-ripoH

sukhAbhAsam zAzvat prathayitum alaM prauDh-kutukAd

yataste tAn dhanyAn param iha bhaje mAdhava-gaNAn

 

"We worship the greatly fortunate devotees of Lord mAdhava who consider the ocean of their own happiness as a blade of straw, and who are humble because of love for KRSNa, the enemy of the Mura demon. By their supreme love dalliances, they eternally exhibit that material pleasure is only a shadow of pleasure, and pleasure in kRSNa-prema is an ocean."

 

Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 2.1.290

 

Atma-koTi-guNaM kRSNe premANaM paramaM gatAH

nityAnanda-guNAH sarve nitya-siddhA mukundavat

 

"All the eternally perfected devotees have eternal and blissful qualities just like Lord Mukunda. Their supreme love for KRSNa is millions and millions of times more than their love for their own self or body"

 

Brhad Bhagavatamrta 2.6.

 

360. For those who are immersed in the flowing ocean of Srî Krsna’s enchanting sweetness and who are maddened in the craving for the treasure of prema for Him, is there anything in all of existence that would not be forgotten?

 

366. The nature of that Goloka is such that those who reside there never wish to leave it, even if they cannot have Srî Krsna’s company there.

 

368. In this way I resided there, and having attained a result beyond even what I had desired for such a very long time, I was always feeling divine jubilation. The nature of vraja-prema is that one is never fully satisfied, but rather the desire to taste it forever increases.

 

369. Therefore with any of my senses I am unable for even one moment to leave the supremely enchanting lotus feet of Srî Krsna, which are anointed with the kumkuma from the breasts of the gopîs

 

Baladeva in his Govinda Bhasya on VedAnta SUtra 4.4.22:

 

na ca sarvezvaraH zrI hariH svAdhina muktaM svalokAt-kadAcit

pAtyitumicchet mukto vA kadAcit taM jIhased iti zakyaM saGkitum.

 

"One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord."

 

SB 11.2.50: One who has taken exclusive shelter of the Supreme Lord, vAsudeva, becomes free from fruitive activities, which are based on material lust. In fact, one who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord is freed from even the desire to enjoy material sense gratification. Plans for enjoying sex life, social prestige and money >>cannot develop within his mind<<. Thus he is considered bhAgavatottama, a pure devotee of the Lord on the highest platform

 

SB 11.20.34: Because My devotees possess saintly behavior and deep intelligence, they completely dedicate themselves to Me and >>do not desire anything besides Me<<. Indeed, even if I offer them liberation from birth and death, they do not accept it

 

SB 11.20.36: Material piety and sin, which arise from the good and evil of this world, >>cannot exist within My unalloyed devotees, who, being free from material hankering, maintain steady spiritual consciousness in all circumstances<<. Indeed, such devotees have achieved Me, the Supreme Lord, who am beyond anything that can be conceived by material intelligence.

 

SB 11.2.53: The lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are sought even by the greatest of demigods, such as brahmA and ziva, who have all accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead as their life and soul. A pure devotee of the Lord can >>never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment — indeed, not for half a moment<< — even in exchange for the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. Such a devotee of the Lord is to be considered the best of the vaiSNavas

 

SB 12.10.6: Lord ziva replied: Surely this saintly brAhmaNa does not desire any benediction, not even liberation itself, for he has attained pure devotional service unto the inexhaustible Personality of Godhead

 

CC Madhya 4.186: "This is the natural result of intense love of Godhead. The devotee does not consider personal inconveniences or impediments. In all circumstances he wants to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead

 

CC Madhya 24.182: "A devotee of kRSNa is never in a miserable condition, >>nor does he have any desire other than to serve kRSNa<<. He is experienced and advanced. He feels the transcendental bliss of love of kRSNa and always engages in His service in full perfection

 

CC Madhya 24.183: "'My devotees, having fulfilled their desires by serving Me, do not accept the four kinds of salvation that are easily earned by such service. >>Why then should they accept any pleasures that are lost in the course of time?'<<

 

PURPORT

 

This is a quotation from zrImad-bhAgavatam (9.4.67)

 

SB 11.14.14: One who has fixed his consciousness on Me desires neither the position or abode of Lord brahmA or Lord indra, nor an empire on the earth, nor sovereignty in the lower planetary systems, nor the eightfold perfection of yoga, nor liberation from birth and death. Such a person >>desires Me alone<<

 

SB 11.14.16: With the dust of My devotees' lotus feet I desire to purify the material worlds, which are situated within Me. Thus, I always follow the footsteps of My pure devotees, who are >>free from all personal desire<<, rapt in thought of My pastimes, peaceful, without any feelings of enmity, and of equal disposition everywhere

 

see also 11.14.17

 

CC Madhya 24.38: Lord kRSNa is so exalted that He is more attractive than anything else and more pleasing than anything else. He is the most sublime abode of bliss. By His own strength, He causes one to forget all other ecstasies

 

CC Madhya 24.39: Pure devotional service is so sublime that one can very easily forget the happiness derived from material enjoyment, material liberation and mystic or yogic perfection. Thus the devotee is bound by kRSNa's mercy and His uncommon power and qualities

The sweetness of material bliss is not even 1/100 of 1/100 of 1/100....... etc of one measure of the bliss of brahman. And the bliss of brahman is not even 1/100000000000000^n of one measure of the ever fresh bliss in Vaikuntha derived from Hari seva.

 

 

CC Madhya 21.118: Both the gopIs and kRSNa are complete. The gopIs' ecstatic love is like a mirror that becomes >>newer and newer at every moment<< and reflects kRSNa's bodily luster and sweetness. Thus competition increases. Since neither give up, their pastimes become newer and newer, and both sides constantly increase

Brhad Bhagavatamrta 2.6.358: Therefore, by continuously experiencing union and separation, the prema of the Vrajavasis is forever increasing.

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Sri Brahma-samhita TEXT 21

 

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah

prakrtis ca paraiva sa

 

SYNONYMS

sah--that (jiva); nityah--eternal; nitya-sambandhah--possessing an eternal relationship; prakrtih--potency; ca--and; para--spiritual; eva--certainly; sa--that.

 

TRANSLATION

The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

PURPORT

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyer, meditator and doer. Krsna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles.

 

 

Narayan Maharaj: "...The jivas cannot be created, they are eternal, but they are coming from the light, the sight of Karanadaksayi Vishnu. You should know what is that light. The dim reflection of that light is a combination of the abhasa or semblance of cit-sakti. The abhasa of the tatastha or marginal mood, plus vibhinamsa-tattva, plus maya-shakti. It is a mixture of all these four things, and it is called Sambhu-linga. It is from there that the jivas are coming..."

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A talk with Srila Sridhar Maharaj about cit-abhasa, published twenty years ago by SCSMath.

 

====================

Dr. Murphey: Externally we see the Ganges as water, but in reality she is a person.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Everything is a person. Before we go to the material conception, we must pass through the personal conception or aspect of that thing. In Vrndavana everything is conscious, but some things are posing in a passive way. But they are all conscious: the Yamuna river, the cows, the trees, the fruit - everything is conscious, spiritual, but they pose in different ways. Being able to detect the conscious characteristic in everything, the Aryans saw all of nature as conscious and personal, and addressed everything as conscious. Consciousness and personality are the universal basis of reality. Whatever we may experience is conscious. The reflection of a material object is within me, and the plane within me is conscious. The subject is consciousness, and whatever kind of thing the object may be, it casts its reflection into the plane of consciousness. The observer of any objective reality is involved only with consciousness from beginning to end, and can have no conception of matter apart from consciousness.

 

Dr. Murphey: This is a bit difficult for us to fully grasp. When we see color, what are we actually seeing?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: That is a mental stage.

 

Dr. Singh: What is the reality of that object?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Reality - that is in the soul. Only the soul is real; the seer is reality. The subject is real. And whatever the subject feels also emanates from the subject.

 

Dr. Singh: But are the objects the subject perceives also persons? When we are seeing the color red, now is red also a personality?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Everything has its representation in the original, personal, conscious, spiritual reality. Otherwise, there is no possibility of its being reflected into this plane as matter. First there is consciousness and then when it is in a more gross condition, it appears to be matter. In the study of ontology it is taught that when studying a particular thing, although we can know that it has certain attributes to the eye, and that it appears to the ear in a particular way, these are all appearances. Independent of appearances, the ontological aspect of a thing - what it is, the reality of a thing - is unknown and unknowable. My contention is that when consciousness is going to feel nonconscious matter it will have to pass through a conscious area (cit abhasa) to meet the material object. So the full perception of that material thing cannot but be conscious; and consciousness always indicates person. First there is conception and then the material idea.

 

The conscious world is very near and the material world is very far off. Therefore the great rsis, whose thinking is highly developed, address whatever they find within the environment as if they are all persons. In the Vedas, the ancient scriptural literature of India, we find that the saints and sages are always in the midst of so many persons; in the background everything is a person.

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Dr. Murphey: It is said that when Krsna goes to take bath in the Yamuna, all the waves rush in to embrace Krsna.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Sometimes the stones melt feeling the imprint of Krsna's lotus feet. Everything is conscious. So it is also in the case of Rahu and Ketu and other planets. Everywhere in the scriptures, the spiritually developed sages are found talking with nature as if they are talking with a person. And it is real. But our consciousness, is deviated in ignorance.

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The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.

 

 

“Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there. All these incidents, therefore, were designed by the Lord Himself for the sake of His pastimes in the material world. Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval. Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuntha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: "All glories unto you." A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the <font color="brown">conclusion</font color> of this incident.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.29, purport)

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