Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

[Guest guest]

OK, so you don't use Bon Maharaj's translation.

 

 

Yes we shall follow the teaching of the six Goswamis as our life and soul. Where is there a description of ekadasa-bhava and siddha-pranali in any of the writings of the Six Goswamis? Since these things are not mentioned, a strict follower of the Six Goswamis may choose to reject ekadasa-bhava and siddha-pranali as inauthentic.

 

 

When you use such chaotic logic as this, it is no wonder that everyone gave up on you long ago. The statement of Sri Narottam and Sri Vishwanatha was given to show how a distinction should be made between previous and later mahajanas, previous ones including the Dandakaranya Rishis whom you are so fond of. To change track quickly by questioning the existence of ekadasa-bhava and siddha-pranali in the Goswamis books is shoddy.

Don't be ridiculous. Siddha-pranali is the lineage of your guru-varga in their siddha forms, it is the same as your guru-parampara. What makes you think you don't need this? Why should it be written in the Goswamis works when it was adequately dealt with by Gopalguru and Dhyanacandra Goswamis, Sri Narottam and Sri Vishwanath etc?

 

You do realise that by saying ekadasa-bhava is fit to be rejected, you are rejecting Sri Bhaktivinode? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

In future, I suggest you just stick to the topic and admit where you have no answers, instead of changing track when you have no answers. The Dandakranya Rishis are not an example of upasana for Gaudiya Vaishnavas; Sri Rupa Goswami simply used them as an example of how males can attain a feminine bhava. Its as simple as that and whether you accept this or not is no concern of mine, it is actually between you and Sri Rupa Goswami. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

Your attempt to avoid a proper discussion about the matter of whether a liberated soul gets "given" a spiritual body shows YOUR weakness.

 

 

Excuse me? I clearly said that I am reading the different bhasyas myself and forming a conclusion that is different to yours. Until I complete such study it would be inappropriate to speak about the topic. If you want to take that as avoiding the subject that is fine with me..

 

 

A fact that is also borne out by the fact that you refuse to reveal your name to us.

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. How is this important? You haven't asked Alpa-medhasa's name either, why is that not important.

 

You do not know the names of the individual Dandakaranya Rishis and thus you are forbidden to use them as part of your argument. This absurd logic is the same absurdity you show when demanding to know people's identities.

 

 

But in fact we have Ramanuja, Sankara, Krishnananda and Baladeva Vidyabhusana all agreeing on this point:

 

Ramanuja, Sankara, Krishnananda and Baladeva Vidyabhusana are all only expanding on what Vyasa said.

 

 

You obviously haven't read the part where Swami Krishnananda says that Sankara is at odds with every other Vedanta commentator. But never mind if you're avoiding the subject, this appears to be your style lately. It makes me wonder why I should bother when people who reply don't even bother to read properly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif By the way I'll ask again, since when did you start taking instructions from the lineage of Ramakrishna?

 

 

I said that if anyone had anything to discuss with me now then please do so, because I will not be responding on this thread after Sunday.

 

 

I'll save you the trouble and tell you not to bother. The way that you deliberately misrepresent the Acaryas and the sastras tell me that your understandings of them are not very honest, not to speak of your deliberate misrepresentation of my own posts. I have seen this style of posting many times before and it looks set to continue. So with all respects, I'd appreciate it very much if you stopped interacting with me since you are just repeating your historical points again and again ad nauseum and I do not have the time or energy to pour water into upturned pots. Good luck on your spiritual journey. Adieu!

 

Bogus Rascal.

[Guest guest]

 

In Gaudiya Math, these are not topics that people talk about openly. And what we have heard or read in Gaudiya Math, we don't necessarily have to reveal to outsiders.

 

 

Right. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[muralidhar_das 0]

<blockquote>

Siddha-pranali is the lineage of your guru-varga in their siddha forms, it is the same as your guru-parampara. What makes you think you don't need this?

</blockquote>

 

The fact that the sages in Dandaka forest attained gopi-bhava without knowing about any "siddha-pranali".

 

Also, Guru-parampara and siddha-pranali are not the same thing, contrary to what you think.

 

The siddha-pranali is supposedly a line of diksa-gurus and their disciples.

 

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur presented his Guru-Parampara and that Parampara contains a number of siksa-guru and disciple links. I am a servant of the Acharyas in that Parampara. Our Parampara is not a diksa-guru parampara.

 

[Guest guest]

 

In Gaudiya Math, these are not topics that people talk about openly. And what we have heard or read in Gaudiya Math, we don't necessarily have to reveal to outsiders. Don't expect me to talk about any of this here. But the fact is, the letter from Srila Sarawati Thakur to Kunja Babu exists.

 

 

The story I heard about this telling to Kunja Babu {Bhakti Vilas Tirtha] that he was a manjari goes like this.

 

Kunja Babu had left or was leaving the mission. Bhaktisiddhanta in trying to get him to stay used a rhetorical device intended to create an emotional response i.e get Kunja Babu to stay.

 

It wasn't like he initiated Kunja Babu into his siddha form. I heard that in a letter or conversation he simply said something like "from one manjari to another" [not exact wording, he used manjari names]

 

I forgot where I heard this story. Anyone else heard this?

[muralidhar_das 0]

Bogus Rascal mentioned the statement of how a distinction should be made between previous and later mahajanas. The later mahajans being the Six Goswamis.

 

I replied that since ekadasa-bhava and siddha-pranali are not mentioned in the Six Goswamis writings, a strict follower of the Six Goswamis may choose to reject ekadasa-bhava and siddha-pranali as inauthentic.

 

Rascal replied:

<blockquote>

Why should it be written in the Goswamis works when it was adequately dealt with by Gopalguru and Dhyanacandra Goswamis, Sri Narottam and Sri Vishwanath etc?

</blockquote>

Gopalguru and Dhyanacandra came after the six Goswamis. They came in the next generation (Gopala Guru was a child in Puri in the time of Mahaprabhu).

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

Bogus Rascal wrote:

<blockquote>

You do realise that by saying ekadasa-bhava is fit to be rejected, you are rejecting Sri Bhaktivinode?

</blockquote>

 

No I'm not.

 

Your calculative logic is wrong, yet again.

 

Bogus Rascal math: 0 + 0 = 1

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

Shiva,

 

The way you tell it is not right.

 

There is a video of Srila Sridhar Maharaj talking about this. You can get it here:

http://www.guardian-of-devotion.de/dvd/dvd.htm

 

The letter is at Chaitanya Math library in Mayapura.

[Guest guest]

 

To engage in the practice of raganuga-bhakti, taking the shelter of guru is important. The insturction of Srila Rupa Gosvami is that one should take diksa and siksa from such a guru before once commences this sadhana. So Shiva, who is your guru? What have the Goswamis taught in their books? If having or needing a siddha-pranali is unnecessary, then how exactly do you fulfil the instructions for your raganuga-dhyana according to the outlines of Dhyanacandra Goswami's paddhati?

 

 

Sastra also tells us we need to reside at Radha Kunda. Sastra also tells us if we cannot reside in Vraja, then we should do that in our mind. Sastra also tells us that we can receive the necessary knowledge from Guru, other anugrai vaisnavas, or from caitya guru.

 

Since at the time of my beginning raganuga sadhana, I had no personal Guru near me for thousands of miles who knew anything about it, I relied on the writings of anuragi vaisnavas.

 

That was sufficient for me, should I say otherwise to please someone else's idea of what is mandatory?

 

There is a difference between unnecessary and helpful. Is it necessary to be initiated to become self realized? No. If you have access to the words of the sastra and the words of the guru's and sadhus, then that is not really different then being initiated and hearing the same exact information.

 

Either way the essence is tattva jnana. How you get it is not relevant. Getting it is. So is having a guru giving you diksa with an initiation procedure necessary? No.

 

Can it be helpful, sure. Can you become self realized without it, of course. Krishna has many ways to enlighten people. You can have many initiation ceremonies from various Guru's, that in and of itself does not elevate you.

 

What does elevate you is engaging in the process of sadhana bhakti. Hearing, chanting, etc. To do those things you don't need a certificate from anybody that says "I am official devotee now". Anyone can hear and chant etc.

 

Krishna's will is the relevant potency, not anything else.

 

I don't need Dhyanacandra Goswami's paddhatis. If you feel they are absolutely necessary, then fine, go for it. I can only tell of my own experience in the matter at hand. I used the books at my disposal at the time [over 20 years ago]. They were books by the goswamis, and many other vaisnava acaryas. They were sufficient for me. What can I say. They worked for me, been there, done that. If the tortoise tells the bird that the bird cannot possibly fly, unless he follows the instructions of the tortoise, what of it?

 

As to who is my Guru? I live in the land of Gurus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kailasa 0]

It is simply trade. Sankhya about "rasa lila" for ignorant.

 

Top - "madhurya"

 

"We are theach top"

 

Metods - "siddha pranali"

 

"We are give siddha pranali"

 

Come.

 

"Sidha pranali, frech siddha pranali, top rasa, top guru"

/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

 

Gaudiya not sambhoga. But for materialist it is dark region. They very love "madhurya". It is very understable for materialists.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Gaurasundara:

<blockquote>

You obviously haven't read the part where Swami Krishnananda says that Sankara is at odds with every other Vedanta commentator.

</blockquote>

 

The verse we are talking about is 4.4.1

 

You accuse me of bringing up matters that are off-topic, or of not addressing the immediate issues. When in fact it is you who do this endlessly. When commenting on verse 4.4.1 Krishnananda doesn't talk about Sankara

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_4/bs_4-4-01.html

 

[Guest guest]

Murlidhar-can you give a summary of what Srila Sridhar Maharaja said?

 

That was the way I heard the story, from who I cannot remember.

[muralidhar_das 0]

Kunjada was working for the post office in Calcutta. He had a good job, and he had enough money to pay to open a temple. So he managed to get Prabhupada to come to live and preach in Calcutta, and they established the original temple of Prabhupada at Ultadanga in Calcutta.

 

Then, when the preaching began in all seriousness the costs of organizing festivals and so forth became very great. Kunjada was managing all the finances, without consulting anyone, and he was paying all the bills. He got into financial difficulty. He ammassed large debts. But he didn't tell Prabhupada. Instead, he decided to go to Iraq (!) during the war (!) - the first world war - and to work there for the British. Working in the war zone, his salary was much greater, and he was therefore able to pay for all the expenses of Sri Gaudiya Math.

 

Then, when Prabhupada found out that Kunjada had gone, he wrote the letter.

 

I don't want to talk about what is in the letter. In fact, I have a tremendous regard for Kunja Babu. Sri Bhakti Vilasa Tirtha Maharaj. I really don't want to say anymore.

[kailasa 0]

Instead, he decided to go to Iraq (!) during the war (!) - the first world war

 

Then SBST was very kind for him.

[Guest guest]

 

From Sri Guru and His grace by Srila Sridhardev Maharaja

 

The Land

of

Gurus

 

 

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:

 

 

na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat su-puskalam

 

"One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru." In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects. There is gradation of course, but all are guru .

 

There are different classes of guru. All Vaisnavas are considered gurus. If the spiritual master gives even one letter to the disciple, what is contained there is infinite. The knowledge given by the spiritual master is infinite. To know and understand it fully, however, different sources are necessary.

 

In the highest position one can read devotion to Krsna from everywhere. If we can attain the proper vision, then everything will supply me inspiration towards the performance of our duties. Whenever Mahaprabhu saw a forest, he saw it as Vrndavana. Whenever he saw a river, he saw the Yamuna. Whenever he saw a hill, he saw it as Govardhana hill. In that highest stage, wherever we cast our glance, it will remind us about our Lord. They will teach us, they will press us to engage ourselves in service to Krsna. That is the duty of guru. Wherever we cast our glance, whatever we come in contact with will only excite us "Do your duty." That is guru. Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center. So, because every atom in Vaikuntha and Goloka will encourage us towards our duty, they are all our gurus. Gurus will be very amply available when we can raise ourselves to a higher level.

 

 

Guru-Dispels Darkness

 

When we are in the lower stages of material conception, everything we see takes us away from the center by the out-carrying current. Whatever we see says "Oh, come and enjoy me." The invitation of enjoyment is found here in the lower level, and the inspiration of renunciation is also found in a particular stage. The impersonalists who desire salvation say "Whatever we find here is temporary. Reject it all!" But devotion is the positive side. From the side of devotion, everything will draw me towards the center, towards Krsna. And those who will help us in that way, are our gurus. Guru means "one who dispels the darkness of both enjoyment and renunciation . "

 

Krsna tells us not to particularize in one point (acaryam mam vijaniyan ). There are so many siksa gurus in the line, and it is our good fortune to see more gurus, to come to the stage where we see gurus everywhere. Everywhere we shall try to draw the hints of the auspicious presence of Godhead. Krsna says, "One who can see me everywhere, and everything in me is never lost to Me, nor I to him (yo mam pasyati sarvatra, sarvam ca mayi pasyati ). We shall try to see Him in every medium. Then our position is safe. Not to see guru is a dangerous position. But if we can see guru everywhere, advising us to concentrate our energy towards the service of God, then we'll be safe. Of course, there is also a specific vision of guru, from whom I can get the maximum immediate help. But ultimately, Krsna says, "I am the acarya, "See Me in him."

 

 

Jewel Within the Palm

 

Who is acarya ? One who knows how to give due respect to his own acarya. Baladeva Vidyabhusana has explained in one of his commentaries how both Rupa and Sanatana Goswami have shown Govinda to the world. He says that if one has a jewel in his hand, he can show the jewel in various ways by holding it differently. Rupa and Sanatana have each dealt in various ways with the jewel by the name of Govinda, who is always served by the Supreme Goddess of Fortune. They have both shown that high substance, Govinda, to the world just as a jewel within their palms.

 

So not only in the supreme goal of life, but in everything, our knowledge depends on more than one source. We mainly learn from one place, but this is verified and corroborated by many sources; then it comes to be proper knowledge. In the nyaya sastra, the codes of logic, the six processes of acquiring knowledge are mentioned: visaya, the thesis, samgaya, the antithesis, purva-paksa, cross-examination, mimamsa, synthesis, siddhanta, conclusion, and samgatih verification from different sources. After these six stages, something may come in the name of truth in this world. Any knowledge presupposes consultation with different sources, although mainly we can get it from one source. In the beginning we inquire about the truth, not from one, but from many sources. Then we concentrate to inquire from a particular higher source.

 

Our first connection with the truth comes from here and there in small quantities. First there is ajnata sukrti, unknown pious activities, then jnata-sukrti, pious activities performed in knowledge, then sraddha, faith, then sadhu sanga, the company with saints. In this way, we search for Sri Krsna. We inquire here and there. Many saints help us to a certain extent. Ultimately we go that spiritual master in whom we find the greatest possibility of learning the truth, and we surrender there.

 

Having accepted a spiritual master, one will find that his guru has so many disciples, and he will take from them also. His spiritual master will recommend some books for him. He will say, "Read Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam." That will also help us to get so many gurus through the books, where we will find many references and quotations from many gurus.

 

 

All Are Guru

 

All of them have their contribution, and ultimately we must understand that we have to enter into the land of the gurus. Everyone should be respected as guru that gives impetus to me to search for Krsna, to serve Krsna. They will all help to carry me to the center. And this is the most fortunate position: to see everyone, everywhere as guru, to see that no one is our servant and no one is indifferent to us. That is our highest fortune: to attain that highest spiritual environment where everyone is our guru. Here, everyone is our servant; even our father and mother. We want to draw something from everyone in this world of exploitation. And by renunciation everything is eliminated; it is a deserted position. If we are to enter into the land of eternal prospect, then we must learn to see that all are our guru and we are servants.

 

That they are all gurus means they are all our well-wishing guardians. In that plane, we shall imbibe help from everywhere. Their benediction and their grace will come from everywhere. They are all well-wishers, all guardians, they all guide us towards the highest attainment of our fortune. There cannot be any objection to that.

 

But still there is gradation, just as in the very existence of God there is gradation: Vasudeva, Visnu, Narayana, Dvarakesa, Mathuresa, Svayam Bhagavan Krsna--there are so many levels. Gradation is always there, according to our inner position. So, we must not be afraid.

 

Of course there is a time, when we are surrounded by an unfavorable environrnent, that the association of a real saint is very rare. In that stage, we may be warned not to mix with the Mayavadis, Buddhists, Sankarites, Naga babas, and so many other groups of so-called sadhus, so that we may not run hither and thither only to find a guru to get any advice. To save us from such unfavorable circumstances, to protect us, we are warned, "Don't try to see guru everywhere." In a particular stage, however, when we already have a taste for the real truth, we are taken to that plane where everyone is our guru, helping us advance towards our destination.

 

This caution is valuable in the beginning, because there are so many cheaters who want to devour us. At that stage, especially, to help us proceed towards the goal, we must exclusively concentrate on our guru, avoiding the Buddhists, mayavadis, atheists, and all those who wear red rags in the name of sadhus.

 

Still, in every sampradaya, or religious tradition, that trick has been used: "Only listen here. Stick to the words of your guru, the advice of your guru. Don't try to mix hither and thither, to run here and there to get advice. So many teachers are the enemies of your guru. They are not preaching the real truth." That warning is necessary in some stage. "Don't try to see guru everywhere, because in this world, so many men in the dress of sadhus are going on with their lower campaign." This warning should come in that stage.

 

 

Hurled Down to Vaikuntha

 

And in the lower stage also, to keep up and to develop our attention and devotion towards our guru, so much help should come from our senior godbrothers. They will help us understand the greatness of our guru in different ways. They are also doing the work of siksa guru. But when we enter in the kingdom of service, then, of course, everyone will help us. It is also said that we may have an inner attraction towards Vrndavana, and our inner awakenment may be in the service of Krsna of Goloka, but if we mix with so many sadhus in Vaikuntha, then we will be hurled down to Vaikuntha.

 

In a certain stage, we should beware of bad association, so in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.91) Rupa Goswami has said, sajati-yasye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare : What sort of saintly persons shall we try to mix with earnestly? Those who are in our line, who have the same high spiritual aspirations as we do, and who hold a superior position. To associate with such saintly persons will help us the most to progress towards the ultimate goal.

 

There may be some obstacles, but if at heart we are sincere, the environment cannot deceive us, because God's inner help is there, cooperating with our sincere, inner need (na hi kalyana krt kascit durgatim tata gacchati ). What we want from our innermost hearts cannot but come true, because Krsna knows everything. There may be some obstacles, but by Krsna's help, they shall all be eliminated and our innermost aspiration will be crowned with success.next

 

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

I want to withdraw from this discusssion, for this type of discussion just goes on and on forever.

 

I do feel it has been worth discussing these things, but unfortunately different individuals have vastly different belief-systems, and when worlds collide it is not a gentle meeting of worlds.

 

In my view, these are the main issues of contention:

<ul type="square">

[*]Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur taught that any disciple of a genuine Gaudiya Acharya can realize Krishna and realize their siddha-deha (spiritual body) if they practice pure devotional service and chant Hare Krishna.

[*]Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said a devotee can realize their siddha-deha without ever being told anything about a list of predecessor diksa gurus in what is called a "siddha-pranali". [*]Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati regarded his Siksa-guru, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, as well as Jagannatha das babaji (the siksa Guru of Bhaktivinode Thakur), as vital links in the Guru-paramapara that connected him to Sri Chaitanya. [*]Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati received diksa (initiation) from Srila Gaurakishore das Babaji, but he did not regard the diksa guru of Gaurakishore das Babaji as a link in his Guru Parampara. Nor did he accept Bipin Bihari Goswami, the diksa guru of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, as his Guru.

In regard to siddha-deha, the following can be said:

 

In the commentaries to Vedanta-sutra 4.1.1. we see that Ramanuja, Sankara, Krishnananda (Sivanananda) and Baladeva Vidyabhusana are all agreeing on this point: The soul on liberation attains to its original nature and it does not acquire new attributes. That is, the liberated soul does not get given a spiritual body but instead it manifests its innate form and opulences.

 

Brhadbhagavatamrtam says "According to the specific form and nature of the Supreme Lord that they worship and meditate on as their beloved, the devotees attain (manifest) a form like the Lord's."

 

Consequently, contrary to the opinion of followers of the "siddha-pranali" school of thought, a devotee does not need to be "given" or "awarded" a spiritual body by their guru at the time when they are given their "siddha-pranali". The spiritual body is innately present within us and it will manifest in our consciousness at the appropriate time. That is, when we become pure enough to perceive it.

 

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, a pure devotee of Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Radha-Govinda, sent into this world from Goloka to preach pure devotion, was aware of his own siddha identity. And he was able to reveal the siddha identity of his disciples. He has that transcendental capacity. But not only that, Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati taught that any of his disciples (and the future generations of disciples) could realize their siddha-deha if they practice pure devotional service and chant Hare Krishna. Through sincerity, we can get everything we are seeking. Glory, glory, glory to Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur!

 

A devotee can realize their siddha-deha without ever being told about a list of predecessor diksa gurus, in a list called "siddha-pranali".

 

With these words, I rest my case.

 

[krsna 3]

Excellent points made to support the Saraswata Lineage:

 

Higher Rasa

 

by Harinam das (05-10-02)

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti and Srila Sanatana Gosvami both explain in their commentaries on the 14th chapter of Srimad Bhagavatam, "Prayers of Lord Brahma", of how Lord Brahma is not presumptuous to think that he could enter into the exalted status of the residents of Vrindavan. Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti comments on text 31 as follows:

 

(Lord Brahma speaks to Lord Krishna) "However, it is not proper for persons like myself to request the position of Your greatest devotees, who love You in the pure vatsalya-rasa and other exalted rasas. That position is very difficult to attain. My words here are meant only to glorify it."

 

Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti also explains how Lord Brahma deems it not proper to request the position of great devotees of Gokula, in exalted rasas such as vatsalya, etc.

 

"My greatest possible good fortune would be to take any birth whatever in this forest of Gokula and have my head bathed by the dust falling from the lotus feet of any of its residents. Their entire life and soul is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Mukunda, the dust of whose lotus feet is still being searched for in the Vedic mantras." (SB 10.14.34)

 

Similarly Sanatana Goswami explains how Brahma responds to Krishna’s questions as follows:

 

Lord Krishna may ask: "You prayed to attain any sort of birth where You would be touched by the dust from the feet of Gokula’s residents. Why did you not ask for a birth as a gopa or one of the other devotees there?"

 

Sanatana Goswami describes further:

 

"O Lord, the Personified Vedas are the most senior and venerable persons. They are my teachers. If they find it difficult to attain the dust of Your feet, then it is not proper for me to pray as You suggest. How can I pray to become a gopa or other Gokula resident, who have all conquered Your lotus feet by the greatness of their love?"

 

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains how even Lord Brahma declines to pray for the position of the great residents of Gokula, such as gopas, etc. He sees how the Personified Vedas even find it difficult to attain the dust of the Lord’s feet. Brahma factually realizes his humble position.

 

I know that many devotees follow the vani of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti’s teachings as he is considered to be a bona fide rasika guru. And so I was surprised to read his commentary on Lord Brahma’s prayers. It is quite illuminating to understand that even Lord Brahma would not assume to reach the status of the residents of Vrindavan. He did not consider it proper to even request such a position.

 

Srila Prabhupada has also stated repeatedly that we should simply follow the process of vaidhi bhakti and realize that we are not this material body. Then our rasa will be revealed to us in due course of time. Here we see this humble mood confirmed by the great acaryas. We cannot force or imitate pure devotional service to appear until it is meant to appear by our mature devotional service and Krishna's supreme will. First we must realize that "we’re not this material body" and perfect our sadhana bhakti, preach Krishna Consciousness and serve our Guru’s mission. Then eventually our particular rasa will be revealed to us by the grace of guru and Krishna, who have been pleased by our humble service.

 

We’ve seen time and time again, that some devotee, or some sanyasi had thought that he was qualified and engaged in "higher rasa" when time had told that he was still not sufficient in knowledge that "he was not his body" and he suffered some falldown, due to gross mis-identification with the material body. Srila Prabhupada has tried to spare us from this presumptuous attitude, being the precursor to sahajiyism.

 

Eternal Constitutional Identity of the Soul

The constitutional spiritual identity (svarupa) and function of the soul is that it is an eternal servant of Krishna. That is the essential characteristic of the soul not the specific rasa (shanta, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madurya). Therefore one should always cultivate devotional service to Krishna beginning from regulative vidhi-marga then one's raga-marga (5 rasas) will develope properly without any separate endeavor. Because raga-marga is on the perfectional uttama-adhikari devotional platform it should never be done presumptuously or immaturely.

"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy." (Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109)

 

"Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his thesis Bhakti-sandarbha (202), has stated that uncontaminated devotional service is the objective of pure Vaisnavas and that one has to execute such service in the association of other devotees. By associating with devotees of Lord Krsna, one develops a sense of Krsna consciousness and thus becomes inclined toward the loving service of the Lord. This is the process of approaching the Supreme Lord by gradual appreciation in devotional service. If one desires unalloyed devotional service, one must associate with devotees of Sri Krsna, for by such association only can a conditioned soul achieve a taste for transcendental love and thus revive his eternal relationship with Godhead in a specific manifestation and in terms of the specific transcendental mellow (rasa) that one has eternally inherent in him." (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1:35 purport)

 

"Without serving Krsna according to the vidhi-marga regulative principles of the pancaratrika-vidhi, unscrupulous persons want to jump immediately to the raga-marga principles. Such persons are called sahajiya. There are also demons who enjoy depicting Krsna and His pastimes with the gopis, taking advantage of Krsna by their licentious character. These demons who print books and write lyrics on the raga-marga principles are surely on the way to hell. Unfortunately, they lead others down with them. Devotees in Krsna consciousness should be very careful to avoid such demons. One should strictly follow the vidhi-marga regulative principles in the worship of Laksmi-Narayana, although the Lord is present in the temple as Radha-Krsna. Radha-Krsna includes Laksmi-Narayana; therefore when one worships the Lord according to the regulative principles, the Lord accepts the service in the role of Laksmi-Narayana. In the "Nectar of Devotion" full instructions are given about the vidhi-marga worship of Radha-Krsna, or Laksmi-Narayana. Although there are sixty-four kinds of offenses one can commit in vidhi-marga worship, in raga-marga worship there is no consideration of such offenses because the devotees on that platform are very much elevated, and there is no question of offense. But if we do not follow the regulative principles on the vidhi-marga platform and keep our eyes trained to spot offenses, we will not make progress." (Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.45-46 purport)

 

"When you are free from the conception of gross and subtle bodies and when your senses are free from all influences of the modes of material nature, you will realize your pure form in My association. At that time you will be situated in pure consciousness." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.33)

 

"Purport: In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu it is said that a person whose only desire is to render transcendental loving service to the Lord is a free person in any condition of material existence. That service attitude is the svarüpa, or real form, of the living entity. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in the Caitanya-caritamrta, also confirms this statement by declaring that the real, spiritual form of the living entity is eternal servitorship to the Supreme Lord."

 

Higher Rasa and Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan Yuga-dharma

Spontaneous Krishna prema can only be awakened by Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement of congregational chanting of the holy names. Further, chanting the holy names of Krishna is both the means (vidhi-bhakti) and the goal (raganuga-bhakti) simultaneously. Therefore sankirtan can never be given up whether in the neophyte stage or the perfected stage as it is the means and the goal of spiritual life at the same time.

"It is the nature of the Hare Krsna mahä-mantra that anyone who chants it immediately develops his loving ecstasy for Krsna." Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 7.83)

 

Haridasa Thakura protested, "These two benedictions (freedom from the reactions of all sinful life and liberation from material bondage) are not the true result of chanting the holy name. By actually chanting the holy name without offenses, one awakens his ecstatic love for the lotus feet of Krsna." Antya 3.178

 

By chanting the holy name of the Supreme Lord, one comes to the stage of love of Godhead. Then the devotee is fixed in his vow as an eternal servant of the Lord, and he gradually becomes very much attached to a particular name and form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As his heart melts with ecstatic love, he laughs very loudly or cries or shouts. Sometimes he sings and dances like a madman, for he is indifferent to public opinion. (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.40)

 

"Similarly, the first hint that offenseless chanting of the Lord’s holy name has awakened dissipates the reactions of sinful life immediately. And when one chants the holy name offenselessly, one awakens to service in ecstatic love at the lotus feet of Krsna." (Caitanya Caritamrta Antya 3.185)

 

"The holy name of Lord Rama certainly gives liberation, but the holy name of Krsna transports one to the other side of the ocean of nescience and at last gives one ecstatic love of Krsna." Caitanya Caritamrta Antya 3.257)

 

Chanting the holy name is the chief means of attaining love of Godhead. This chanting or devotional service does not depend on any paraphernalia, nor on one’s having taken birth in a good family. By humility and meekness one attracts the attention of Krsna. That is the verdict of all the Vedas. Therefore if one becomes very humble and meek, he can easily attain the lotus feet of Krsna in this age of Kali. That is the fulfillment of all great sacrifices, penances and austerities because when one achieves ecstatic love of Godhead, he attains the complete perfection of life. Therefore whatever one does in executing devotional service must be accompanied with the chanting of the holy name of the Lord." Bhakti-sandarbha 270

 

"Following this religious principle, a pure devotee of Lord Krsna always chants the holy name. As a result of this, he gets the fruit of ecstatic love for Krsna." (Caitanya Caritamrta Antya 7.108)

 

Lord Caitanya's pastimes of chanting the holy names is on the platform of ecstatic rasa in Vraja.

"Sri-gauda-mandala-bhumi. Gauda means West Bengal. Lord Caitanya appeared in West Bengal, Navadvipa, and He especially flooded that part of the country with the sankirtana movement. That part of the country has special significance, for it is nondifferent from Vrndavana. It is as good as Vrndavana. Living in Vrndavana and living in Navadvipa are the same. Narottama dssa Thakura says, sri-gauda-mandala-bhumi, jeba jane cintamani. Cintamani means the transcendental abode. Tara hoy braja-bhume bas. If one simply understands that this land of Navadvipa is not different from Vrndavana, then he actually lives in Vrndavana. One should not think that he is living in Bengal or any material country; the places where Lord Caitanya had His pastimes are as good as Vrndavana."

"Lord Caitanya’s distribution of this love of God is compared wtih an ocean (rasa-arnava). What kind of ocean? Not the salty ocean that one cannot taste. The water of this ocean is so nice that if one drinks even one drop, he will like it more and more. It is not ordinary ocean water, of which one cannot taste even a drop. Therefore it is called rasärëava. In this ocean there are different waves; an ocean does not stand still, for it is not impersonal or void. And as the ocean is always dancing with waves, similarly the ocean of transcendental love of Krsna as introduced by Lord Caitanya has constant waves, constant sound. One has to dive deep into that ocean. If one knows the secret and says, "Let me dive deep into the ocean of the transcendental loving movement introduced by Lord Caitanya," he immediately becomes one of the confidential devotees of Radha and Krsna." (Narottama das Thakura's Savarana-Sri-Gaura Mahima purport)

 

From "Nectar of Devotion" chapter 16 Eligibility for Spontaneous Devotional Service

Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master. Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vrndavana.

A devotee who is actually advanced in Krsna consciousness, who is constantly engaged in devotional service, should not manifest himself, even though he has attained perfection. The idea is that he should always continue to act as a neophyte devotee as long as his material body is there. Activities in devotional service under regulative principles must be followed even by the pure devotee. But when he realizes his actual position in relationship with the Lord, he can, along with the discharging of regulative service, think within himself of the Lord, under the guidance of a particular associate of the Lord, and develop his transcendental sentiments in following that associate.

 

In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-pranali. The siddha-pranali process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-pranali process is followed by the prakrta-sahajiya, a pseudosect of so-called Vaisnavas. In the opinion of Rupa Gosvami, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service.

 

Sri Rupa Gosvami says that learned acaryas recommend that we follow the regulative principles even after the development of spontaneous love for Krsna. According to the regulative principles, there are nine departmental activities, as described above, and one should specifically engage himself in the type of devotional service for which he has a natural aptitude. For example, one person may have a particular interest in hearing, another may have a particular interest in chanting, and another may have a particular interest in serving in the temple. So these, or any of the other six different types of devotional service (remembering, serving, praying, engaging in some particular service, being in a friendly relationship or offering everything in one's possession), should be executed in full earnestness. In this way, everyone should act according to his particular taste.

 

In Conclusion:

 

We cannot preach raganuga bhakti (siddha pranali) to attain raganuga bhakti. One must always preach vidhi-bhakti to attain raganuga-bhakti. In other words one should never put the cart before the horse or proclaim the goal (raganuga-bhakti) as more important than the path (vidhi-bhakti) to the goal. That will create unnecessary disturbance and division in the vaisnava community.

This problem is also found in the appointed and voted-in diksa-gurus which can only be attained by perfect qualification and mature devotional service (uttama-adhikari/raganuga-bhakti) only and never by rubber-stamped title alone.

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

There are some good point made in this article, but unfortunately there are some serious errors too

 

I think it is good to mention some of the biggest errors. But I will leave it to others to carry on this discussion after this.

 

quote:

<blockquote>The constitutional spiritual identity (svarupa) and function of the soul is that it is an eternal servant of Krishna. That is the essential characteristic of the soul not the specific rasa (shanta, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madurya). Therefore one should always cultivate devotional service to Krishna beginning from regulative vidhi-marga then one's raga-marga (5 rasas) will develope properly without any separate endeavor. Because raga-marga is on the perfectional uttama-adhikari devotional platform it should never be done presumptuously or immaturely.

</blockquote>

 

To begin with, the rasa "santa-rasa" is not a rasa that a person engaged in raga-marga (raganuga) bhakti will cultivate. Dasya rasa can be practiced in raganuga bhakti, but it will be as a servant (das or dasi) of a group leader who is in madhurya, vatsalya or sakhya rasa. In which case, the raganuga bhakta will be feeling madhurya, vatsalya or sakhya rasa and in fact they will not be in the pure mood "dasya-rasa" itself. The real place where you see dasya-rasa in full display is in Vaikuntha. But then again, then the cows in Vraja are in dasya rasa.

 

Also, externally a raganuga bhakta practices devotional service in the same way a vaidhi-bhakta does. He engages in sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, puja etc. Internally, the devotee has a feeling of love for a particular devotee in Vraja who is a group leader, such as Yashoda Ma, Subala, or Sri Rupa Manjari. These group leaders are eternal associates of Krishna and they are practicing "ragatmik" bhakti (not raganuga bhakti). A devotee engaged in raganuga bhakta cherishes the thought that they can serve under the guidance of their (ragatmik) group leader.

 

In Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, Sri Rupa Goswami has given the qualification for someone who can engage in raganuga bhakti:

<blockquote>

tatra adhikari:

 

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

 

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

 

Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja" - they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti.

 

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291

</blockquote>

 

In his commentary, Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Prabhu points out that in this verse Sri

Rupa Gosvami has defined raganuga bhakti. Here, Sri Rupa Goswami states that those

individuals who in their intrinsic nature feel an intense longing and firm attachment for

service following in the wake of the feelings and sentiments of the residents of Vrindaban,

with no thought or attraction for the majesties of the Godhead, are alone eligible for

following in the way of raganuga bhakti. The person eligible for raganuga bhakti may

spontaneously follow Sri Radha and other Gopis in madhura rati, Nanda-Yasoda and others

in vatsalya rati, Sridama-Sudama and others in sakhya rati, or Citraka-Patraka and others in

dasya rati.

 

A person doesn't have to be an uttam-adhikari to engage in raganuga bhakti. All you need is a strong longing to render service in the way that the residents of Vraja are rendering service.

 

All you need is love.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vrsnis and the Vrindavana denizens are called raganuga devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These raganuga devotees dont follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yasoda, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called raganuga. (NOD, Ch. 16, p.125)"

 

In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna's service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature." [CC M.8.221]

 

“So you have to uncover. You have to discover. That discovering process is devotional service. The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when it is completely uncovered, without any designation, you are capable to serve Krsna. This is apprenticeship. Vaidhi-bhakti is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, para-bhakti, is raganuga-bhakti. This raganuga-bhakti, we have to come after surpassing the vaidhi-bhakti. In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the shastric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that... Shastric process, and also regulation, is required. Without shastric process you cannot go to that platform. But if we stick to the shastric process only and do not try to improve ourself... The shastric process is kanistha-adhikara, lowest stage of devotional service.” (Srila Prabhupada, in a lecture of Nov. 12, 1972)

__________________

[Guest guest]

Isn't it funny to see people who openly admit that they do not follow the rasika authories pontificating on it as if they were experts? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Shiva, I do not appreciate your portrayal of yourself as a raganuga-bhakta when you admit you have (or had) no guru to guide you. Though you may otherwise make many other points that are reasonable, the idea that one can practice any type of bhakti without a guru is simply not compatible with Gaudiya Vaishnava thought. The Hari-bhakti Vilas (1st Vilas) explains that one is called a Vaishnava after initiation, and not before.

 

This is the kind of hypocrisy that is on the same level as certain other individuals who have girlfriend and yet presume to pontificate on raganuga-bhakti. Raganuga is a very exalted and confidential thing.

 

alpa-medhasaH

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Isn't it funny to see people who openly admit that they do not follow the rasika authories pontificating on it as if they were experts?

 

 

Indeed, this is humorous. There is also this one guy who has presented himself as an expert on raganuga, even though he has a girlfriend, does not (like Shiva) have a guru, and was so gullible at one point that he was a Sai Baba follower. In spite of his anarthas and his lack of qualification, he has the hubris to accuse Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati of "fabricating a bogus siksha parampara."

 

Hilarious, huh?

 

[Guest guest]

Muralidhar Prabhu,

 

I don't meant to prolong your involvement with a thread in which you are getting a lot of unreasonable and harsh criticism. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. I do have one doubt however:

 

 

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja"

- they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti.

 

...

 

Rati, the feeling of attraction to Krishna that is sought after by souls who have sacrificed

all selfish desires, the feeling of attraction which Sri Krishna withholds in great secrecy, is

not easily conferred by him even to devotees who are engaged in spiritual practices. How

can there be an appearance of rati in the hearts of those who do not practice unalloyed

and pure bhakti because of manifold desires for elevation and salvation, or in the hearts of

those who are anxious for self-destruction by way of desiring for merging in the Absolute

Brahman? (Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.3.42-3)

 

There has been quite a lot of talk about "lobha" but in fact Rati is what the soul really needs. And in order to get Rati you must become pure.

 

 

 

If the qualification for raganuga-bhakti is wanting the feelings of attraction to Krishna, and Rati is the feeling of attraction to Krishna, then are these not two different things? That is to say:

 

lobha = desire for rati = qualification to perform raganuga

rati = the end result of performing sadhana-bhakti

 

Perhaps I am mistaken, but as quoted that was what this seemed to be saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

alpa-medhasaH

[Guest guest]

 

Shiva, I do not appreciate your portrayal of yourself as a raganuga-bhakta when you admit you have (or had) no guru to guide you. Though you may otherwise make many other points that are reasonable, the idea that one can practice any type of bhakti without a guru is simply not compatible with Gaudiya Vaishnava thought. The Hari-bhakti Vilas (1st Vilas) explains that one is called a Vaishnava after initiation, and not before.

 

This is the kind of hypocrisy that is on the same level as certain other individuals who have girlfriend and yet presume to pontificate on raganuga-bhakti. Raganuga is a very exalted and confidential thing.

 

alpa-medhasaH

 

 

Well I am very sorry if I have disturbed you to the degree of "not appreciating".

 

I guess I'll just have to live with that.

[Guest guest]

BTW-

 

I don't practice Raganuga anymore. I did from around '83 to '86.

 

Now I just deal with the consequences of that. Raganuga bhakti is meant to elevate you in your relationship with Radha Krishna. Once you get to the plane of direct relationship, raganuga bhakti is not something that you do after that has occurred. With raganuga you are trying to imagine yourself as an intimate associate with Radha Krishna. By that practice you are actually elevated to exactly that, even while still in your present body.

 

It's like the difference between thinking of talking with someone, and then actually talking with that person.

 

You may not appreciate. That is in God's hands. I appreciate, I couldn't not appreciate if I tried.

[Guest guest]

One more thing. I was initiated in ISKCON by a Prabhupada disciple in 1978. But he later disappeared from everyones view. Anyways, the citations I provided state that a diksa guru is not 100% necessary. The quote I provided explicitely stated that you can receive the necessary tattva jnana from a Guru, a vaisnava, or from caitya guru.

 

Srila Prabhupada also stated at various times that you don't actually need to be initiated.

 

“The chanting Hare Krishna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there.”

 

(SP Letter to Tamala Krsna, 19 August, 1968)

 

 

“Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge....knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.”

 

(SP Press Interview, October 16, 1976, Chandigarh)

 

“So anyway, from 1922 to 1933 practically I was not initiated, but I got the impression of preaching Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult. That I was thinking. And that was the initiation by my Guru Maharaja.”

 

(SP Lecture, 10/12/76, Hyderabad)

 

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion."

 

Srila Prabhupada letter to Dinesh (10-31-69)

 

From CC by Srila Prabhupada

 

 

siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa

 

antaryami, bhakta-srestha, -- ei dui rupa

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord.

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami states that the instructing spiritual master is a bona fide representative of Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna Himself teaches us as the instructing spiritual master from within and without. From within He teaches as Paramatma, our constant companion, and from without He teaches from the Bhagavad-gita as the instructing spiritual master.

 

There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple's spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions.

 

 

So here Prabhupada informs of a variety of ways to receive the necessary information required to advance in spiritual life.

 

Anyone who claims that one must have a diksa guru, or a that a person needs to have direct close physical proximity to someone in order to gain siksa from an authorized siksa guru, they are refuted in the above quotes and elsewhere.

 

While having direct association and diksa is no doubt desirable, to state categorically that it is necessary, is not supported by the authorized gaudiya teachings.

 

So maybe you can appreciate now?