Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

muralidhar_das · April 16, 2005

Earlier I quoted this verse:

Brhadbagavatmrtam 2.2.141-4

According to the specific form and nature of the Supreme Lord that they worship and meditate on as their beloved, the devotees attain a form like the Lord's. In this way they manifest many different forms and opulences. They have forms like the Lord's incarnations, as humans, sages, demigods, and philosophers, and as the Lord's incarnations as Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrsimha, Vamana, Shiva, Brahma, Indra, Sesa, Surya, Vayu, Vahni, and many other forms. They also attain four-handed forms, and still other forms, with the specific garments and features of the Lord.

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And made the comment that not all residents of Vaikuntha will have four hand forms.

To which "Bogus Rascal" replied:

Thank you for providing the quote. It defeats your own arguments. The quote according to your translation clearly shows that devotees who meditate on their beloved Lord in whichever form they prefer will attain forms of the same like along the likes of sarupya-mukti. This contradicts what you were saying earlier about the "siddha-deha" being inherent etc.

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This is totally absurd.

Brhadbagavatmrtam says of the devotees, "... they manifest many different forms and opulences. " The meaning is clear - the devotees exhibit opulences. In the line before, it says "the devotees attain a form like the Lord's". Contrary to what "Bogus Rascal" seems to believe, this doesn't mean that they are given a spiritual body.

"Bogus Rascal" is giving an improper meaning to the word "attain". This topic in fact had been discussed earlier, on Page 3 of this thread, where I had written.

Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary.

<blockquote> Vedanta Sütra 4.4.1

sampadyävirbhävaù svena-çabdät

sampadya—of he who has attained; ävirbhävaù—manifestation; svena—svena; çabdät—by the word.

Because of the word "svena" it is the manifestation of he who has gone.

Commentary by Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa

The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sütra explains, "svena-çabdät" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "niñpadyate" in the verse of Chändogya Upaniñad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". An example of that usage is seen in the following words found elsewhere the Çruti-çästra:

idam ekaà su-niñpannam

"He is manifested."

Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavour, because it already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavour to make manifest the original form of the soul.

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http://www.mandala.com.au/books/vedanta.RTF

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I also gave links to two online translations of Vedanta, both of which confirmed that the topic in this verse (4.1.1.) was indeed whether a liberated soul assumes a spiritual body after liberation, or whether he "manifests his innate form of bliss".

Ramanuja

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48552.htm

Krishnananda (disciple of Sivananda)

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_4/bs_4-4-01.html

"Bogus Rascal" then went on to say this:

I do not think that they support the proposition that you are presenting. Is that the only reason why you rely on them by any chance, because they support your position? By the way, even though I personall have no problem with Krishnananda's translation, it is not acceptable to orthodox Advaitins with whom I have had discussions with on this very subject. In any case, the sutras contained in the Fourth Adhyaya do not, in my opinion, validate a description that you to.

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It is hard to work out exactly what you mean here, Bogus Rascal. In the first line you say the translations I gave didn't support my conclusions. In the second sentence you say the reason I rely on them is that they support my conclusions. So please tell me, do these translations support my conclusions, or do they not?

Your writing is incoherent.

In fact anyone who reads these translations of the verse in question (4.1.1.) will see they do support the proposition I presented. The soul does not get given a spiritual body when he attains liberation.

Further to this, "Bogus Rascal" said:

I have spoken with orthodox Advaitins but that was not my point, which was that orthodox Advaitins are not fond of Krishnananda's translations because they do not feel that it is an adequate translation of Sankara's bhasya.

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Here then, is Sankara's translation to . 4.1.1, translated by George Thibaut:

PÂDA IV. Adhik. I (1-3) returns, according to--Sankara, to the owner of the parâ vidyâ, and teaches that, when on his death his soul obtains final release, it does not acquire any new characteristics, but merely manifests itself in its true nature.--The explanation given by Râmânuga is essentially the same, but of course refers to that vidvân whose going to Brahman had been described in the preceding pâda.

http://www.astrojyoti.com/brahmasutras5.htm

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Indeed, we have Ramanuja, Sankara, Krishnananda and Baladeva Vidyabhusana all agreeing on this point:

The soul on liberation attains to its original nature and it does not acquire new attributes.

That is, the liberated soul does not get given a spiritual body but instead it manifests its innate form and opulences.

Brhadbhagavatamrtam says "According to the specific form and nature of the Supreme Lord that they worship and meditate on as their beloved, the devotees attain (manifest) a form like the Lord's."

Consequently, contrary to the opinion of followers of the "siddha-pranali" school of thought, a devotee does not need to be "given" or "awarded" a spiritual body by their guru. The spiritual body is innately present within us and it will manifest in our consciousness at the appropriate time. That is, when we become pure enough to perceive it.

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, a pure devotee of Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Radha-Govinda, sent into this world from Goloka to preach pure devotion, was aware of his own siddha identity. And he was able to reveal the siddha identity of his disciples - he has that transcendental capacity. Glory, glory, glory to Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur!

A devotee can realize their siddha-deha without ever being told about a list of predecessor diksa gurus, in a list called "siddha-pranali".

With these words, I rest my case.

krsna · April 16, 2005

BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA

— Introduction by Devarsirat das, followed by a morning lecture given by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja in June, 1997, at the ISKCON New Mayapura Farm Community in France.

He requested that this lecture below to be distributed, in order to check the disease of sahajiyaism in the world.

Dear devotees, a few days ago I visited a certain website and was amazed to find so many subtle and open statements to discredit Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, especially in regard to his teachings and personal life. This is indeed very unfortunate, because the devotees who are propagating this false and untrue picture of this genuine pure devotee of Lord Krishna who is so dear to our Srila Prabhupada, will sooner or later have their appointment with Lord Yamaraja, no matter if they are acting themselves as Gurus or are just simple rank and file devotees .

In the past, devotees such as Giriraja Maharaja, Sivarama Maharaja, Tamal Krishna Maharaja and others like Satsvarupa Maharaja, have all openly declared Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja as a pure devotee. They have visited Him and had the greatest admiration for Him. I find it strange that they where not able to identify Him then, as unwanted association, since they where advertising them selves at the time as pure spiritual masters?

Clearly a pure devotee must be able to immediately realize that He is accepting teachings from a beginner. It means for me only two things, one is that neither of the above Gurus where advanced enough to see that they where associating with a pretender and allowed themselves to be cheated for several years and the other is that because of their advancement they realized that Srila Narayan Maharaja is indeed someone who could help them to advance further and therefore they where seeking His association.

Please also read H.H. Satsvarupa Maharaja Glorifies Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

I rather think that the above personalities where advanced enough to see the reality of Srila Narayana Maharaja being a real life maha bhagavad devotee of the Lord, otherwise if the other was true it would not look very good for those Gurus and would reduce their spiritual status to the one of Kanistha adhikari, because a kanistha devotee might just fall for a charming personality, because He does not know the symptoms of an advanced devotee.

A advanced devotee can see into the heart of others and know everything about them, even a madhyam devotee would not be cheated by a pretender. So I assume that they where giving in to pressure from above for what ever reason.

Since Sivarama Maharaja and some others recently visited Srila Narayana Maharaja to beg forgiveness for past offenses I assume that at least under cover and in private, some of the leading devotees in Iskcon have different ideas about Srila Narayana Maharaja and are only defeated by a majority of votes, that's all. I think this, because if Narayana Maharaja was really a Sahajiya, what would be the need for these above devotees to go and apologize to Him ?? That's surely not Iskcon style.

For me the worst thing is, that the new comer to Krishna Consciousness, immediately upon arrival (Unless he is treated like Lord Buddha in his father's castle) will be confronted with our quarreling, quotes and counter quotes, and offenses, the war of words. From this point of view we are achieving absolutely nothing at present.

Confused souls come and want to surrender and upon arrival get even more confused by a totally disunited vaisnava community, how sad. We do not attract many devotees, because the preaching spirit becomes suffocated in politics. I do not know what the motives are to character assassinate a pure devotee but the underlying motive could be " if anyone surrenders to the Gaudiya Math, we lose potential collectors" paranoia, followed by vaisnava aparadha to prevent sincere seekers from making their own choice in finding a genuine guru. In reality everyone should be happy that someone has found a spiritual master that inspires him or her to chant the holy name and makes progress on Krishna Consciousness.

Since some unfortunate devotees are so eager to confuse other devotees about Srila Narayana Maharajas personality and teachings I thought that the following class by Srila Narayana Maharaja will clear up some of the misconceptions spread systematically by some. Especially because I can personally confirm and so can many other Prabhupada disciples, that Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja is one of the greatest vaisnavas that have walked this planet in this century, His association is as good as having the association of the Lord Himself, since the real guru should be seen as good as God, but then everyone will see Him according to their own realizations, like when Krishna came into the arena to kill Kamsa, Kamsa saw Him as personified death, the devotees saw Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cow heard boys saw Him as their best friend and so on. So here are the teachings of Srila Narayana Maharaja on Sahajiyaism and by the way, Srila Narayana Maharaja does practice what He preaches.

Devarsirat das

--

Gaudiya Vaisnavism vs. Sahajiyaism

Part I - Real & Unreal Siddha Deha

The following is a morning lecture given by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja in June, 1997, at the ISKCON New Mayapura Farm Community in France.

He requested that this lecture be distributed, in order to check the disease of sahajiyaism in the world.

Once, a very little boy of three years, sitting naked on the lap of his mother, put his arms around her neck and said with love and affection, "Mother, Mother, I want a very beautiful wife. She should be very golden in complexion, with curly hair and beautiful eyes. She should not be stronger than me, otherwise she will be able to chastise me; and she should also be more lean and thin than me. Also, I want to have two sons and one daughter very soon after our marriage. Quickly Mother, you should arrange for a very beautiful lady." The boy's mother began to laugh. "Yes, I will certainly search everywhere for a good wife for you, but first you must become fatter and stronger. Then, when your sikha becomes long and thick, I will very quickly arrange your marriage." This story indicates a phenomena which is spreading everywhere among so-called devotees nowadays. They don't want to chant many rounds, nor do they make an effort to develop a devotional mood towards Krishna. They don't want to remember Krishna, and they don't want to enter into a deep understanding of siddhanta. They can't chant all day and all night like Haridasa Thakura. In fact, they can't even chant one round of the Hare Krishna mantra with their minds absorbed in Krishna. They have many requirements for the body and for those things which relates to the body-such as name, fame and fortune. Although they are full of lust and other worldly desires, they still expect their siddha-deha to manifest.

Jumping Into Goloka

Although their minds cannot concentrate on Krishna's pastimes, they want siddha-deha-as if it was an Indian rasagulla. If someone has money he can easily purchase two, three or four rasagullas. Similarly, these so-called devotees think that they can attain their siddha-deha just as easily as one buys a rasagulla. This philosophical misconception has very, very dangerous consequences. Neophytes expect to immediately jump into Goloka Vrindavana and serve Krishna better than Srimati Radhika. They proudly say, "Radhika? Who is this Radhika? Who is this Lalita? Who is this Visakha?" However, if a beautiful young lady or man were to come, practicing his or her false, so-called devotional life with similar misconceptions, the two will fall down together in a moment. There are thousands and thousands of such so-called devotees. Although they are not mature in their bhakti, they artificially think, "I have now achieved my siddha-deha; I am Lalita or Visakha, and I am a better sakhi than Rupa Manjari. Rupa Manjari was not as qualified as I am." As a result of this offensive thinking such persons must go to hell in a very short time-in a day or two. These people also think, "Oh, the Gaudiya Math has deviated from the ancient parampara. The previous acaryas used to think and act like us. Rupa Gosvami and all of the other acaryas used to do as we do. From the beginning stage of their devotional lives they remembered their siddha-deha, and in their siddha-deha they served Krishna." Such speculations are quite wrong. Our acaryas, headed by the six Gosvamis, never acted like this. They are not ordinary persons, but associates of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna Themselves, who have descended to this world only to give their mercy and teachings; and they set the example for the conditioned souls by beginning from sraddha in their own lives and devotional activities.

For Advanced Devotees

In his book Jaiva-dharma Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has described all the principles and practices of bhakti, up to the attainment of one's siddha-deha. There he explained eleven items of perfection (siddha-deha): siddha-sambandha, siddha-vayasa, siddha-nama, siddha-rupa, siddha-yutha, siddha-vesa, ajna, siddha-vasa, seva, parakashthasvasa and palya-dasi-bhava.

He discussed this, however, in the next to the last chapter-not in the beginning. One of the principle personalities in Jaiva-dharma is Sri Raghunatha dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Vijaya-kumara. Sri Babaji taught these principles to Vijaya-kumara when his disciple was advanced in Krishna consciousness and free from all anarthas and material desires.

Vijaya-kumara had been chanting and remembering Krishna twenty-four hours a day on the shore of the ocean at Jagannatha Puri. In fact the ocean reminded him of Krishna, the ocean of rasa. Vijaya-kumara had understood and realized the meaning of bhava, anubhava, sattvika and vyabhicari. He also realized in what proportion they should be mixed with one's sthayi-bhava (eternal mood of service to Krishna) to become bhakti-rasa. He had become truly humble-trinad api sunicena, taror api sahishnuna, amanina manadena, and he was on the stage of bhavavasta (bhava-bhakti). Even Apsaras, celestial goddesses, like Menaka and others who are more beautiful than any earthly women, can not disturb the Krishna consciousness of a person like Srila Haridasa Thakura. Yet, even Srila Haridasa Thakura himself was not engaged in the advanced practices of devotees in the Gosvami line like Vijaya-kumara. We have never seen or heard in any scriptures that he was engaged like this. Only devotees like Srila Rupa, Srila Sanatana and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvamis were following all of these principles, and, following them, our entire line of disciplic succession has continued in the same way down to the present day.

A devotee must become mature in bhakti before he can fully follow our disciplic acaryas. He must come to the stage of sraddha, then sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha nivritti, nishtha, ruci, and asakti. At the stage of bhava when there is no scent of desire for sense gratification, when he is quite free from all material thoughts and habits, his siddha-deha will automatically manifest.

The Eight Stages of Devotional Service

When will siddha-deha come? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained this in his book Bhajana-rahasya. There he discusses Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sikshashtakam which expresses the eight stages of maturity in devotional service. He writes that first one will have to do bhajana of ceto-darpana-marjanam: ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranamvidya-vadhu-jivanam anandambudhi-vardhanamprati-padampurnamritasvadanam sarvatma-snapanamparamvijayate sri-krishna-sankirtanam

"Let there be supreme victory for the chanting of the holy name of Sri Krishna alone, which cleanses the mirror of the heart and completely extinguishes the blazing forest fire of material existence.

Sri-krishna-sankirtana diffuses the soothing moon rays of bhava which causes the white lotus (kumudini) of good fortune for the jivas to bloom. The holy name is the life and soul of transcendental knowledge, which is here compared to a wife (vadhu). It continuously expands the ocean of transcendental bliss, enabling one to taste complete nectar at every step.

The holy name of Sri Krishna thoroughly cleanses and cools the self (atma), one's nature (svabhava), one's determination (dhriti), as well as the body both internal and external." This sloka of Sri Sikshashtakam is actually realized after the stage of asakti.

The next sloka is namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis:

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrisi tava kripa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrisam ihajani nanuragah

"O Bhagavan! Your holy name bestows all auspiciousness upon the living entities. Therefore, for the benefit of the jivas, You eternally manifest Your innumerable names, such as Rama, Narayana, Krishna, Mukunda, Madhava, Govinda, Damodara, and so on. You have invested those names with all the potencies of Your various personal forms. Out of causeless mercy, You have not imposed any restrictions on the chanting and remembrance of such names in regards to any specified time, such as sandhya-vandana (evening prayer).

In other words, at any time of the day or night, the holy name can be chanted and remembered. This is the regulation which You have established. O Prabhu! This is Your causeless mercy upon the living entities. Nonetheless, on account of committing offenses (nama aparadha), I am so unfortunate that although Your holy name is so easily accessible and bestows all good fortune I have not awoken any attachment toward it." This sloka represents the stages of sadhu-sanga and anartha-nivritti-removal of anarthas by association with devotees. At present our chanting of Krishna's name is not pure. It may sometimes be namabhasa or namaparadha. Pure nama will appear on our tongue when we becomes pure ourselves. At that time the quality of trinad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna manifests automatically:

trinad api sunicena

taror api sahishnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

"Thinking oneself to be even lower and more worthless than insignificant grass which has been trampled beneath everyone's feet, being more tolerant than a tree, being prideless, and offering respect to all others according to their respective positions, one should continuously chant the holy name of Sri Hari." This sloka represents nishtha-firm faith, when one's chanting will not be just for "show". The next stage is to realize na dhanamna janamna sundarim:

na dhanamna janamna sundarim

kavitamva jagad-isa kamaye

mama janmani janmanisvare

bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi

O Jagadisa! I do not desire wealth, followers such as wife, sons, and relatives; or mundane knowledge described in poetic language. My only desire, O Pranesvara, is that in birth after birth I may have ahaituki-bhakti unto Your lotus feet.

This sloka represents ruci, a taste for bhajana.

When we properly practice in good association, everything will develop automatically. We will then realize the fifth sloka:

ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram

patitammamvishame bhavambudhau

kripaya tava .-pankaja-

sthita-dhuli-sadrisamvicintaya

"O Nanda-nandana! Please be merciful upon me, your eternal servant who has fallen in the dreadful ocean of material existence as a result of my fruitive actions. Like a particle of dust affixed to Your louts feet, kindly accept me forever as your purchased servant." It is at this stage that one's siddha-deha begins to manifest. This sloka represents asakti, or attachment to Krishna. After the stage of asakti, when tears flow continuously, one feels purva-raga, the intense mood of separation experienced before meeting Krishna. As the devotee chants he will think, "O Krishna, I cannot live without You; O Srimati Radhika, I cannot live without You. When will you give me your darsana?" Then, when he is weeping twenty four hours daily, rolling on the earth, then nayanamgalad-asru-dharaya:

nayanamgalad-asru-dharaya

vadanamgadgada-ruddhaya gira

pulakair nicitamvapuh kada,

tava nama-grahane bhavishyati

"O Prabhu! When will my eyes be filled with a stream of tears? When will my voice choke up? And when will the hairs of my body stand erect in ecstasy as I chant Your holy names?" This sloka represents the stage of bhava-at which time the siddha-deha manifests automatically. From where does this siddha-deha come? It is in our svarupa, our original spiritual form. Our siddha-deha does not come from anywhere outside ourselves. In our svarupa everything is perfect. To realize this, we simply require a connection with svarupa-sakti. When that connection is made, siddha-deha automatically manifests and all spiritual sentiments of love appear in our heart.

Krishna Will Manage Everything

Krishna will manage everything; but one should not become mad and imitate this stage artificially, otherwise he will find himself outside this spiritual Gaudiya Vaisnava line; and then he will be ruined. One can only pray, "O Krishna! O Gurudeva! When will I have siddha-deha, siddha-nama? O Srimati Radhika, when will I be your maidservant, Your palya-dasi? When will I reside near Govardhana and Radha-kunda? When will I attain that position?" An aspiring devotee must be patient. In the First Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Lord Narayana appeared to Sri Narada Muni for a moment, and then He disappeared. Sri Narada immediately became very upset and lamented, "Oh, Lord Narayana has gone; what shall I do?" When he began to weep loudly, a voice from the sky called to him, "Don't worry. You will have to wait, because no one can see Me in his material body. By My mercy I showed you My svarupa, but now you must wait. Continue chanting My names and remembering Me twenty four hours daily wherever you are, and preach My hari-katha to others. One day death will come. At that time you will put your feet on the head of death and quickly give up your material body."

prayujyamane mayi tam

suddhambhagavatimtanum

arabdha-karma-nirvano

nyapatat panca-bhautikah

(Bhag. 1.6.28)

"Having been awarded a transcendental body befitting an associate of the Personality of Godhead, I quit the body made of five material elements, and thus all acquired fruitive results of work [karma] stopped." [bBT] At the time of death, when Sri Narada Muni left his pancabhautikah (material body), his siddha-deha appeared and he realized himself as an associate of Bhagavan. When did his siddha-deha come? Not in the beginning. It came at the most advanced stage of his Krishna consciousness.

It is very helpful to long for the day that our siddha-deha appears.

However, we should not imagine that we have our siddha-deha before it has actually manifested. One can pray, "O Krishna, I want to be eternally in Vrindavana, in a transcendental body." We should always have that as our objective, and we should hanker to attain service to Radha and Krishna. But we should not imagine that we are Lalita, Visakha, or any sakhi. Otherwise we will be ruined. We cannot expect to attain our siddha-deha before we understand all siddhantas. If one does not know them, then he will say, "This fire (the activities of artificial siddha-deha) is my mahaprasada;" he will eat it and he will be finished. This misconception is called sahajism, and there is a great difference between sahajiyas and Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami were not sahajiyas. They were practically following the correct process of bhakti. 'Siddha' means that a man must first become a siddha devotee. How will siddha-deha manifest when our body is still material? In our Gosvamis' books, especially in the books of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, the bona fide process for achieving perfection is explicitly given. One must first pray for this perfection. "O Krishna! O Gurudeva! When will that day come when I will realize siddha-deha and siddha-nama?" One must become mature in understanding all kinds of siddhanta. He must first understand Prahlada Maharaja in the Seventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and then Citraketu Maharaja in the Eighth Canto. Then he must understand the first part of Tenth Canto, especially how Krishna manifested His Damodara-lila, and he must remember all these pastimes. His devotion must mature, so that seeing a beautiful young lady or young man will not disturb him or her. Then, when he has no worldly desires at all, and when he is qualified to be always in Vrindavana and Radha-kunda under the guidance of a self realized soul, a tattvajna, rasika bhakta, at that time he can attain his siddha-deha.

Spreading Like A Plague

There are so many sahajiya babajis-men and women-in Radha-kunda, Vrindavana, Kamayavana and many other places in Vraja. They are devotees in name only.

Coming to Govardhana and Mathura to beg money in all the shops and other places, and then spending the entire night counting how much money they collected, how then will they have time to chant and remember Krishna and practice bhakti? They say their guru gave them siddha-deha, but they do not even know how to clean themselves after passing stool. They do not know the ABC of siddhanta, and yet they imagine that they have been given siddha-deha. This is very dangerous. Not only in India, but all over the world there is a lack of understanding and good association, and this has created a very serious disease which is spreading like a plague among neophyte devotees. We must try to save ourselves from this. Nowadays even brand new devotees are reading Krishna-karnamrita and saying, "Oh, very good". They are reading Govinda-lilamrta and thinking, "The Gaudiya Math does not know all these things. They cannot taste rasa. Oh, we are always in rasa." We should not follow them. Instead of following this very dangerous path, we should try to pursue the bona fide process laid down by our acaryas like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. At our present stage we should not buy or read Govinda-lilamrta and Krishna-bhavanamrita. We must first engage in very good sadhana- bhajana and become mature in bhakti. Until then, we don't require to read these books any more than the three-year-old boy required a young and beautiful wife. If we follow sincerely, Krishna will automatically send a realized soul to help us. He may send Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, or Srila Rupa Gosvami may come himself. We should therefore follow only this bona fide process.

Our aim And Objective

First we must know the aim and objective of our sadhana, and then we should know how to begin from sraddha:

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-

sango 'tha bhajana-kriya

tato 'nartha-nivrittih syat

tato nishtha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas

tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakanam ayampremnah

pradurbhave bhavet kramah (1) By hearing the sastras, paramarthika (transcendental suddha-sraddha) appears. The word sraddha here implies firm belief in the meaning of the bhakti-sastras such as Srimad Bhagavad-Gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, and so forth. (2) Upon the appearance of such sraddha, one again obtains sadhu-sanga and, in their company, begins to receive instructions regarding the methods for executing bhajana. (3) Thereafter, one takes up the practices of bhajana (bhajana-kriya) beginning with sri-guru-padasraya, and so on. (4) By constant engagement in bhajana, anarthas gradually disappear (anartha-nivritti). (5) This elimination of anarthas takes place in successive stages. As one becomes progressively freed from anarthas, he attains nishtha and freedom from all distractions (vikshepa). At that stage ekagrata (one-pointedness) and nairantaryamayi (incessant striving) arise in the pursuit of bhajana. (6) Thereafter, ruci (taste) or, in other words, an intense hankering (lalasa) for bhajana develops. (7) When ruci becomes very deep it is called asakti. The difference between nishtha and asakti is that nishtha involves application of the intelligence, whereas asakti is spontaneous. In the stage of nishtha, even if the mind is not attracted, by one's intelligence one remains devoted to the performance of bhajana.

However, when one comes to the stage of asakti, the sadhaka has no more dependence on any kind of reasoning by the faculty of the intelligence. At that stage he is deeply immersed in the performance of bhajana in a spontaneous manner. (8) After the stage of asakti, bhava or rati makes its appearance. (9) At the final stage prema manifests. This is the order of the stages leading to the appearance of prema within the heart of the sadhaka.

(Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu-bindu) We must understand all of these truths, and then adopt the correct process. At the same time we should not think that there are no devotees who are qualified to remember their siddha-deha. There are certainly pure devotees in this world, and we should not try to disturb them by criticizing them. They will not be disturbed, of course, but we will be. It will not profit us to try to drag them down artificially to our level. There may be thousands and thousands of devotees who are qualified for this perfection, and who are acting according to that perfection at the present moment. Our aim and objective should be the same as theirs, but we should not imitate them. We must be patient, and engage sincerely in sadhana and bhajana, then we will gain all spiritual perfections automatically.

Great Relish For Kirtana

Have you heard of nama-gane sada ruci? This is one of the symptoms of those who have achieved bhava-bhakti.

nama-gane sada ruci, laya krishna-nama

"Due to having great relish for the holy name, one is inclined to chant the Hare Krishna mahamantra constantly. "[Madhya-lila 23.32] Do you know who is the best kirtaniya in the entire world-from ancient times to present day? Do you know who sings the most powerful and sweet kirtanas? It is not necessarily the person who is expert at playing violin, harmonium, tabla, and vina. Srila Sukadeva Gosvami is the best kirtaniya; all our acaryas are the best kirtaniyas, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja are also the best kirtaniyas. Understand this deeply, and try to become kirtaniyas like our acaryas. Do not think that you are unqualified if you do not know how to play the harmonium or if your voice is not very flexible for singing ragas. Even if you have a very raspy voice, this is not an impediment.

Simply chant with feeling, "He Krishna, He Krishna." It is the spiritual qualification to describe the pastimes of Krishna that makes one the most high-class kirtaniya-not a very fine voice. A person with a beautiful voice can fall down at any time, and in fact he may already be fallen. Those who perform kirtana thinking, "Are the people in the audience inspired or not? Are they pleased with my kirtana?", are not actually doing kirtana. Kirtana is that process by which the transcendental sound of Krishna's name and glories enters the ears and purifies the heart. This is the actual meaning of kirtana. If we have to glorify a person, or if we have to give him rupees, dollars or francs before he will sing, then he is not truly a kirtaniya. Money and reputation cannot touch the real kirtaniya. We should try to be like that: melting others hearts, melting our own hearts, and always weeping for Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. The hari-katha of such a kirtaniya touches everyone's hearts, and anyone who is sincere is bound to follow him.

vaco vegammanasah krodha-vegam

jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam

etan vegan yo vishaheta dhirah

sarvam apimamprithivimsa sishyat

A wise and self-composed person who can subdue the impetus to speak, the agitation of the mind, the onset of anger, the vehemence of the tongue, the urge of the belly and the agitation of the genitals can instruct the entire world. In other words, all persons may become disciples of such a self-controlled person. (Sri Upadesamrita 1) Such a person is guru, and his hari-katha is the most powerful cure for our original disease, which is that we have forgotten Krishna.

(end of part 1)

krsna · April 16, 2005

BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA

— Part II - Sikshashtakam - The Bonafide process of Siddha Pranali'

The following is a lecture given by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja in Holland, the same year, on the Disappearance Day of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Gadadhara Pandita.'

The glories of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura are so great that even Lord Brahma, with his four mouths, cannot completely describe them. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was a transcendental personality, and we are not transcendental. How then can we even begin to touch his glory? Only a transcendental person can expound the glory of another.'

We have heard from our Gurudeva and other Vaishnavas, and we have also read in authentic books, that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was given the title 'Seventh Gosvami.' From the time of the Six Gosvamis up to his time no one else was ever designated as such. During his life (1838-1914), however, learned persons and devotees saw his remarkable activities and gave him this upana, title. It was Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura who once again illuminated the true principles of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. If he had not appeared when he did, perhaps all the teachings of pure Gaudiya Vaishnavism would have been forever drowned in an ocean of oblivion. That time was a dark period for Gaudiya Vaishnavism. The sahajiyas used to give what they called siddha-pranali, so-called siddha-deha, to anyone and everyone, without even knowing whether or not their so-called followers were actually devotees. The followers neither knew any Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy, nor did they have any sadacara, yet they would go to their sahajiya-babaji gurus who pretended to give them their siddha-deha and siddha-pranali. They misunderstood Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu teachings, thinking that Gaudiya Vaishnavism means to travel to Vrindavana, live there, and have children with other's wives. They considered that by doing this they had become gopis. This was their conception of siddha-deha. "Come on, come on," their guru would say to them.'

"I'm giving you siddha-deha and siddha-pranali." Of course, he could not have actually given them siddha-deha. To whom did he pretend to give it? Thinking, "I am this body" his disciples did not even know the ABC's of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings. Such persons did not know that they are eternally part and parcel and servants of Krishna. They did not even know how to clean themselves after passing stool and urine, yet they thought they were given siddha-deha and siddha-pranali "you are a goopi." What are 'goopis?' Those who think that they are lovers or beloveds in this world.'

They think that they should find a lady, live with her and enjoy sex life.'

They think this is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. In the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavism sahajiyas called Vaishnava jati would perform Hare Krishna kirtana, following the dead body during funeral processions, and then take a large payment from the deceased's rich relatives. However, in their kirtanas, the word 'Krishna' did not manifest. It was difficult for the audience to actually find the word "Krishna." The chanters sang, "Hare Kr-sna-a-a-a-a-a-a," in a very fancy melody, and the audience applauded, "O, very good, very good," and paid them some rupees. Although those chanters drank wine and ate meat and fish, they still thought that what they were doing was all right, and were still called Vaishnavas by unintelligent people.

Because of such disgraceful displays, learned and educated persons became ashamed and did not want to associate themselves with the words 'Gaudiya Vaishnavism.' Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was, in his time, the first person to preach the factual philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to this learned society. By his preaching people came to know about true transcendental love-prema-bhakti, and it is for this reason that he was given the title 'Seventh Gosvami.' Just as King Bhagiratha brought the Ganges River to the earth-to India, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura brought the bhakti Ganga (Ganges) to this world. Because of him, so many people became inspired to follow Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

If he had not appeared, we would not have joined this mission. If Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja had not come to the West-if he had not gone to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had not come from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, then what would have been your fate? Your good fortune, therefore, is coming from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who preached the pure doctrines of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Some people say that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura did not take diksa initiation from Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja, and that he did not take Babaji vesha (the dress of a Babaji from anyone. They say he simply gave Babaji vesha to himself. They also say that because Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura did not take sannyasa from anyone (he gave it to himself), therefore is also not in the bona fide line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. It is due to lack of intelligence-due to ignorance, that they speak like this. They do not know the meaning of Bhagavata parampara or guru-parampara, and this is why Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura clearly explained the entire process for achieving spiritual perfection in his final literary work, Jaiva-dharma. In that book he clearly elucidated the qualifications for receiving siddha-deha, and explained how the bona fide guru reveals siddha-deha to a qualified disciple. Previously, in his book Bhajana-rahasya, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura clarified many deep siddhantas on the same subject. Those who actually want to enter into the realm of bhakti, therefore, should try to follow Bhajana-rahasya, Jaiva-dharma, and all his other books.'

In Bhajana-rahasya Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote that we should begin bhakti by trying to serve and realize the first sloka of Sri Sikshashtakam: ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. Then we should follow and practice the second sloka: namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis. And then the third: trinad api sunicena taror api sahishnuna. If we factually practice these qualities we may enter the fourth sloka: na dhanamna janamna sundarim. We should be detached from all worldly desires and worldly tastes.'

Then, when we become pure, when we are always chanting and remembering Krishna without being disturbed by any obstacle, we can enter the fifth sloka: ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram.'

Entering this fifth sloka is the beginning of siddha-deha, at which time we will realize ourselves as eternal servants of Krishna in a specific relationship. All aspects of our eternal relationship with Krishna are already in our atma, just as the potency of a fully grown tree is present in the seed of that tree. With water, air and light the seed sprouts, and gradually leaves, branches, flowers, manjaris and finally fruits also manifest. The entire tree or creeper is there in its seed, but only when air, water and sunlight touch it, do all its features sprout-otherwise not.'

Similarly, the full potency of our pure bhakti is present in our atma. In this fifth sloka, the jiva-svarupa is revealed. The sixth sloka of Sri Sikshashtakam states:'

nayanamgalad-asru-dharaya

vadanamgadgada-ruddhaya gira

pulakair nicitamvapuh kada,

tava nama-grahane bhavishyati'

"O Prabhu! When will my eyes be filled with a stream of tears? When will my voice choke up? And when will the hairs of my body stand erect in ecstasy as I chant Your holy name." When a devotee realizes his atma and he understands that he is an eternal servant of Krishna, at that time he has no worldly attachments. It is then that the svarupa-sakti, as hladini and samvit, mercifully manifests in his heart. He then begins to weep, and, while chanting the holy name of Krishna, he rolls on the earth and sings, "Agha-damana (Krishna, the killer of the Agha demon), Yasodanandana. O, Nanda-sunoh (O, son of Nanda Maharaja), where are you?" The devotee may sometimes get a glimpse of Krishna and immediately run towards Him. And when Krishna disappears from his vision, he rolls on the ground in separation. If a person does not feel this type of separation from Krishna, his siddha-deha will not manifest. When one actually has feelings of separation, his siddha-deha will manifest, not before.

Those who artificially exhibit emotions of separation will go to hell-like the lakhs and lakhs of babajis in Vrindavana and adha-kunda who are simply giving birth to children and engaging in other malpractices. One of the brothers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura used to think that his father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, was his physical body. In fact, he thought of himself as the son of Kedarnatha Datta (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's civil name), not Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. On the other hand, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura never thought in this way. He considered his father an associate of Sri Krishna, Srimati adharani, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He didn't consider him his material father, a person made of blood and flesh.'

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura actually followed the path of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Whatever his father spoke, he totally accepted and followed. Our goal is siddha-deha, but what is siddha-deha? What is siddha-pranali? Who started it, in what year did it begin, and from where did it originate? Srila Sanatana Gosvami and Srila Rupa Gosvami are called Gosvamis, not Babajis. No one addresses them as Rupa Babaji, Sanatana Babaji, or Srila Raghunatha Babaji. Who gave siddha-pranali to them? What is siddha-pranali? Siddha-pranali is sikshashtakam. One should first of all know that he is an eternal servant of Sri Krishna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and he should therefore follow trinad api sunicena. He should become detached from worldly attractions and chant and remember Krishna twenty-four hours a day under the guidance of any very qualified Vaishnava.'

tan-nama-rüpa-caritadi-sukirtananu-

smrityoh kramena rasana-manasi niyojya

tishthan vraje tad-anuragi jananugami

kalamnayed akhilam ity upadesa-saram'

"The essence of all advice is that one should utilize one's full time-twenty-four hours a day-in nicely chanting and remembering the Lord's divine name, transcendental form, qualities and eternal pastimes, thereby gradually engaging one's tongue and mind. In this way one should reside in Vraja [Goloka Vrindavana dhama] and serve Krishna under the guidance of devotees. One should follow in the footsteps of the Lord's beloved devotees, who are deeply attached to His devotional service." This is real siddha-pranali. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has explained this siddha-pranali in his prayer called Manah-siksha. All the slokas of his prayer are pranali,-not artificially imagining that, "Oh, you are a gopi.'

You are Lalita-gopi. You are Visakha-gopi." From where and from whom has this artificial siddha-deha come? There is no history. It is not in our culture, nor is it the teaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Real siddha-deha and siddha-pranali manifest when we follow the correct nine steps-from sraddha to nishtha etc. It comes by purely adopting the process of sravanam, kirtanam, vishnu-smaranam, .-sevanam, arcanam, vandanam, dasyam, sakyam, atma-nivedanam. It also comes by: sadhu-sanga, nama-kirtana, bhagavata-sravana mathura-vasa, sri-mürtira sraddhaya sevana'

"In the association of devotees one should chant the holy name of the Lord, hear Srimad-Bhagavatam, reside at Mathura and worship the Deity with faith and veneration." (Cc. Madhya 22.128 [bBT]) These are the processes, and we shall have to adopt them. Sri Krishna and Srimati Radhika will then mercifully give us siddha-deha.'

How Sri Narada Muni Received Siddha-Deha'

In Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that Narada Muni received his mantra from Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana and Sanat-kumara. Later, when his mother died, he left her and went to the dense forest. There he bathed in a river, sat down silently under the shade of a banyan tree, chanted his mantra and meditated upon the Supersoul within his heart. After practicing this for some time Lord Vishnu momentarily manifested in his heart-and then disappeared. Narada wept bitterly in separation from Lord Vishnu, and then a voice from the sky called to him, "Narada, I will not give you darsana again as long as you are in this material body. You should continue chanting My name, remembering Me, and glorifying My pastimes all over the world. At the appropriate time, when death comes, you'll put your feet on the head of death. Following Lord Vishnu's instruction, Narada thus always chanted and remembered the Lord, and while playing on his vina he sang songs and poems glorifying the pastimes of Krishna. Narada bajaya vina radhika ramana namine. After many years death came. At that same moment siddha-deha also manifested, and in that siddha-deha he did not use an airplane or anything-nothing like Dhruva Maharaja. Upon receiving his transcendental body he became so strong that he could travel anywhere in the universe or beyond-without the help of an airplane. The process is not that one artificially thinks, "Give me some dakshina, at least five rupees, and I will be the Gurudeva of so many sishyas." With this temptation such false gurus make many disciples, give so-called siddha-deha, and all go to hell together. We should try to know all of the processes taught by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura: sravana dasa, varana dasa, smarana dasa (smaranavastha), bhavapana dasa (at the stage of bhava or svarupa-siddha), anusmriti and finally prema-sampatti dasa. It is in sampatti dasa that siddha-deha (vasthu-siddha) will manifest. In sravana dasa, one hears from his bona-fide guru about Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri Caitanya-caritamrita and the entire philosophy of Srila Rupa Gosvami. In sravana dasa there are many things to learn, such as who you are and what your name is-not the name of this material body, but of your transcendental body. The guru knows this.'

One who claims to be guru but who does not know all this, and by kalpana, by imagination, gives this type of information, is actually pretentious. The bona fide guru knows everything-your name, your relationship with Sri Krsna and Srimati adhika and the gopis, your place of residence-whether it is at adha-kunda or Jawat or Nandagaon or Varshana-the name of your father and mother, your service, and the nature of your beautiful form. The guru then reveals his sishya's particular service to adha-Krishna conjugal (agya), and his palya-dasi-bhava. There are eleven items in all. In sravana dasa, therefore, you will have to hear and understand about the process for perfection from Jaiva-dharma, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri Caitanya-caritamrita and all the books of Srila Rupa Gosvami. The process is not that one in the beginning stage goes to his guru and is told, "Oh, you are a very beautiful gopi, and your name is Lalita."

Although this is called siddha-pranali, we do not know who began this type of siddha-pranali. At the time of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura no one addressed him as Visvanatha Cakravarti Babaji. During his time the process of giving someone this bogus version of gopi-bhava was not practiced. To teach the actual process was the main objective of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's teachings can be summarized in two lines. Jiva doya krishna nama sarva dharma sara. This is also the sum and substance of all the teachings of all the Vedas, Vedanta, Upanishads, Bhagavata-gita, the Puranas, Srutis, Smritis, Pancaratra, etc. In essence there are two principles-jiva-doya and krishna-nama. The meaning of jiva-doya is 'mercy to conditioned souls,' and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has elaborately explained this. Successfully helping conditioned souls to turn their worldly mentality towards Krishna's service is the best doya, mercy. It is worth more than opening hundreds of thousands of hospitals and universities, or donating hundreds of thousands of dollars in charity. Jiva-doya is the most special gift, and only a realized soul can give it.'

harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha'

"In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, the only means of deliverance is the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way." Jiva-doya is attained only by chanting Krishna's holy name. Krishna's name is Krishna Himself, but we can chant suddha (pure) nama only in the association of the bona-fide guru and bona-fide Vaishnavas. Without this association we can neither chant the pure name nor engage in pure suddha-bhakti. What is suddha-bhakti? aganuga-bhakti is suddha-bhakti. We may think that vaidhi-bhakti is suddha-bhakti, but it is not, nor will it ever become so. Spontaneous devotion to Krishna is raganuga-bhakti, and when the practice of raganuga-bhakti fully matures, it is then called ragatmika-prema. When we have no ragatmika-prema, cultivation of that pure bhakti with all of our senses is called raganuga. When our hearts accept the same mood Srila Rupa Gosvami possesses in his heart-the mood of a palya-dasi (unpaid maidservant) of Srimati Radhika, it is called rupanuga-bhakti. We conditioned souls are eligible to become palya-dasi. We cannot become like Lalita or Visakha.'

Their position is beyond our limit of attainment. We can follow only Srila Rupa Gosvami or Rupa-manjari, Rati-manjari, Lavanga-manjari, and all the other manjaris. The sahajiya-babajis say, "Oh, you are Lalita. I am Lalita," but this is Mayavada philosophy, or monism. We should not be artificial nor should we imitate. Rather we must follow in the process taught by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, as further elaborately explained by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his followers. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura foretold that in the near future many hundreds and thousands of Western devotees with sikha and tulasi-mala will meet with Indian devotees, and they will all chant, "Hari bol, hari bol. Gaura premanande, hari hari bol, and Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare." Thus, all over the world, this pure mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu will spread. This idea was started by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He is the root of all our preaching, and therefore we are truly indebted to him. '

Edited by Syamarani dasi

krsna · April 16, 2005

Q&A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

Q. I understand that when one takes shelter of a bona fide guru in raganuga-bhakti that the guru eventually reveals the siddha pranali, or what I understand to be one's spiritual identity as a maidservant (manjari) of Sri Radha. What if the disciple's spiritual position is not a manjari? Is it possible that the disciple's eternal position is in Vaikuntha with Visnu instead of Goloka with Krsna?

A. Most devotees who take initiation in the Gaudiya sampradaya are destined to love Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana as either maidservants of Radha (manjaris) or cowherd friends of Krsna (gopas). This is what the sampradaya is really all about. Nityananda Prabhu's influence gave rise to a number of sakhya (gopa) lineages in Bengal, and later his consort Jahnava formed a manjari lineage, as did others. In the past there have been instances where a guru encourages his disciple to pursue one bhava only to find that as the disciple advances he is attracted to another bhava, as in the case of Duhkhi Krsna dasa who later became Syamananda. At such times the guru makes an appropriate adjustment. Similarly, if due to the broad preaching campaign of some of Mahaprabhu's followers some souls destined for Vaikuntha join his movement, they will not be hampered in attaining their ideal, and a bona fide guru will guide such disciples accordingly. Anupama, the brother of Sri Rupa and Sanatana, was an example of a Vaikuntha bhakta who was a devotee of Mahaprabhu. His ista devata was Sri Ramacandra.

The term siddha pranali does not refer to manjari bhava. It refers to a lineage of siddhas, spiritually perfected gurus, and, in particular, to their siddha status in the lila. In some Gaudiya lineages, disciples are given a spiritual form to meditate on and identify with through sadhana and are taught the spiritual identity of all the initiating gurus in their lineage. Not all Gaudiya lineages do this, nor is it necessary to have received this information to attain the Gaudiya ideal of Vraja bhakti. Along with the grace of Sri Guru, the holy name of Krsna and the Gopala mantra/Kama gayatri have the power to grant this ideal. Sri Jiva Goswami says as much in Bhakti-sandarbha when he defines diksa: divyam jnanam hy atra srimati mantre bhagavat-svarupa-jnanam, tena bhagavata sambandha-visesa-jnanam ca, "Divine knowledge (diksa) means knowledge of the true nature of God and one's own special relationship with him imparted through sacred mantra." (Bhakti-sandarbha, anuccheda 283). This approach is followed by the lineage of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. He emphasized this approach in opposition to misrepresentation of the name of siddha pranali, involving gurus who were neither siddhas nor sincere. One's siddha deha is not something manufactured in the mind of a conditioned soul, nor is it something to dangle before disciples of the lineage of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to say, "You cannot attain Vraja bhakti without coming to our lineage."

Q. What is the teaching of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati on raganuga-bhakti and siddha pranali?

A. The position of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati is that ajata ruci (without taste) raganuga sadhakas (practitioners) should adopt the methods of raganuga sadhana that they are qualified to adopt in proportion to their development of sacred greed (lobhamayi sraddha), while following the angas (limbs) of vaidhi bhakti (regulated devotion).

This follows Sri Jiva Goswami's Bhakti-sandarbha 311, ajata-tadrsa-rucina tu sad-visesa adaramatradrta raganugapi vaidhi-samvalitaivanus heya/ tatha loka-sangrahartam pratis hitena jata-tadrsa-rucina ca/ atra misratve ca tyatha-yogyam raganugayaikikrtyaiva vaidhi kartavya.

"One in whom this taste (ruci) has not arisen but who has come to appreciate raganuga-bhakti only on account of appreciation for a particular saint or scripture (sat), may still practice raganuga-bhakti but with an admixture of vaidhi-bhakti. In the same way, for the sake of preaching (loka-sangrahartaham) one who is advanced and in whom taste has manifested should also practice raganuga with an admixture of vaidhi. Such mixing of the two kinds of bhakti means that one practices vaidhi-bhakti by uniting it with whatever raganuga practices one is capable of."

In the opinion of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, such mixing of the two kinds of bhakti means that one embrace the angas of vaidhi-bhakti with a view to attain greater eligibility for raganuga-bhakti and its sadhya (goal) by uniting them with whatever raganuga practices one is eligible for (yatah-yogyam). In his opinion this did not include an emphasis on meditating on the pastimes of Radha-Krsna from the vantage point of one's siddha deha for those who had not attained the stage of nistha, based on the reasoning that dhyana (meditation) requires a pure heart, whereas kirtanam (chanting) does not. He reasoned, as has Sri Sanatana Goswami in Brhad-bhagavatamrta, that smaranam (remembering) arises naturally out of kirtanam. Thus he emphasized nama smaranam for beginners, stressing inoffensive chanting that would lead naturally to meditation on Krsna's form (rupa samaranam), qualities (guna smaranam), and pastimes (lila smaranam). Of course he also emphasized mantra dhyana of Gopala mantra, kama gayatri, etc., and these mantras were given to sadhakas only after they had attained a degree of steadiness in nama smaranam (japa).

In some ways his position was a reaction to what he perceived as a sleight of hand in the name of giving--or in some cases making a business out of--a type of siddha deha. In this initiation one's svarupa (spiritual identity) is thought to be revealed by the guru to the disciple for the purpose of aiding him in lila smaranam. Bhaktisiddhanta's opinion was that while sadhakas were aspiring for Vraja bhakti they should do kirtanam, and as kirtanam qualified them, they should combine it with smaranam. Furthermore, he maintained that through kirtanam one's svarupa would be glimpsed in the higher devotional stages of ruci and asakti, at which time effective and meaningful lila smaranam from the vantage point of one's svarupa could take place, thus propelling the sadhaka into bhava-bhakti. As one's svarupa arises though sadhana and the mercy of great souls, the guru helps the disciple to cultivate its realization.

The system (siddha pranali) that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura criticized, one traced to an eternal associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu (Gopala-guru Goswami), is still current, but it should be made clear that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura criticized what he considered a distortion of this system. Today there is debate on this topic among various Gaudiya lineages as to which lineages are appropriately following this system. I have met members of the Gadadhara parivara that do not accept the system as it is applied by the current Radha Kunda lineage, and I have heard from reliable sources that members of the Syamananda parivara also differ from both of these lineages in their approach. Members of Gaudiya Matha differ from all three of these. However, I doubt that there are many devotees from any of these lineages that have taken the time to seriously investigate each other's approach, and most base their opinions on things that they have heard from third parties. While in some cases they have heard from their superiors, they often base their present position regarding the practices of other lineages upon things that superiors in their own lineages experienced decades ago.

My position as a current representative of the Gaudiya Saraswata sampradaya is that we should not criticize unless we know something is amiss by first-hand experience. Furthermore, we should judge any approach to raganuga-bhakti by the results it brings. If someone attains bhava by any particular approach, no one can argue with that.

krsna · April 16, 2005

Heir to the Esoteric Life

of Kedarnatha Bhaktivinoda

Author: Swami B.V. Tripurari

Publisher: Harmonist Publishers, 1998

In his introduction to Sri Guru-parampara, Swami B.V. Tripurari says the essay's purpose is 'to examine the sensitive issue of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's critique of prevalent practices in the [Gaudiya Vaisnava] sampradaya and his analysis of the modalities of raganuga-sadhana'. Tripurari Maharaja then clearly, directly and systematically confronts criticisms of the line of Gaudiya Vaisnavism issuing from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and in doing so demonstrates its authenticity without the high degree of contentiousness that often attends this controversy.

The booklet begins by exploring the aspect of raganuga-bhakti commonly practised by Bhaktivinoda and Bhaktisiddhanta's contemporaries, known as the siddha-pranali system. As ISKCON devotees are aware, Bhaktisiddhanta and his followers have not emphasised this practice. This is partly because its too-liberal dissemination has historically resulted in immoral behaviour disguised as spontaneous devotion, which has in turn diminished public regard for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement. The qualification for this initiation has generally been the candidates' eagerness for knowledge of their eternal relationship with Krsna in Vraja. However, citing Jiva Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravarti and Bhaktivinoda, Tripurari Maharaja clarifies Bhaktisiddhanta's distinction between immature desire and the mature eagerness that develops from genuine spiritual progress. Such mature desire for perfection, he says, arises naturally from the positive attachment to Krsna based on freedom from material desire, as described by Rupa Goswami. Thus, as Tripurari Maharaja points out, 'Bhaktisiddhanta appears to have rejected siddha-pranali-diksa, while in reality he rejected its misappropriation' [emphasis added]. Indeed, Maharaja appends a short lecture in which Bhaktisiddhanta tells his disciples, 'Do not think that astakaliya-lila smarana is the property of the sahajiyas. Actually it is our affair. It has to be retrieved from the hands of the sahajiyas.'

Maharaja explains that Bhaktisiddhanta's approach to raganuga-bhakti stresses kirtana, enhanced by chanting the traditional Gaudiya-Vaisnava-mantras, more than smaranam. Moreover, he broadened the understanding of kirtana to include practical activities for disseminating Lord Caitanya's teachings, especially the production and distribution of transcendental literature. Swami Tripurari cites many sources asserting the pre-eminence of kirtana, including Srimad-Bhagavatam and Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. Bhaktisiddhanta's approach was somewhat innovative; however, Maharaja demonstrates its roots in tradition predating the siddha-pranali system. The chanting of the holy name is the prime purificatory activity for Kali-yuga and is accessible to all without any discrimination. This system, Tripurari Maharaja writes, neither ignores nor prematurely imitates the esoteric practices of raganuga-bhakti; rather, it prepares the practitioners by purifying their hearts, ensuring gradual progress, from initial sraddha through the anartha-nivrtti stage, so the sadhakas may realise their spiritual identity in truth rather than in imagination.

This booklet also explores the nature of the sampradaya as conceived by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. In response to the degeneration of many venerable lines of succession, Bhaktivinoda, and, following his explicit instruction, Bhaktisiddhanta, sought to reform the Gaudiya Vaisnava-sampradaya by stressing the substance over apparent form. Therefore, in pursuance of this end, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta fashioned such an essential lineage, consisting of universally acknowledged maha-bhagavatas, thus making the important teachings of the most prominent lines accessible to all sincere devotees. This essential sampradaya may be called a bhagavata- or siksa-sampradaya. The outward form is less important than essential spiritual ideal, the Swami explains. Such is the nature of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's revolution.

What is the significance of all this to ISKCON devotees? Tripurari Maharaja has written this booklet to encourage all devotees, including those in ISKCON, to understand the nature of their spiritual heritage. It often seems that ISKCON's focus on A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, its Founder/acarya, has isolated ISKCON and its leaders from the rest of the spiritual family that Maharaja calls the 'Bhaktivinoda-parivara'. This isolation, together with Srila Prabhupada's caution regarding the particulars of cultivating spontaneous devotion, Maharaja suggests, has limited the society's impact and perhaps stunted the growth of its members' devotional creepers. Following Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, ISKCON's leaders teach that following the process of vaidhi-sadhana-bhakti and vigorously preaching Krsna consciousness will automatically deliver the practitioner to the goal. Tripurari Maharaja wants to remind them that that goal is to develop an inner desire for Vraja-bhakti. This desire, he says, 'is the spiritual heritage of ISKCON'. ISKCON's leaders, then, should ensure that service to the movement actually yields such desires; further, they should be prepared to help devotees cultivate those desires as they mature. More than this, though, Maharaja suggests that an honest connection with the rest of Bhaktivinoda's family and an increased focus on the essential mission in all its forms would enhance ISKCON's potency.

Many ISKCON leaders may tend to resist this advice. They will see Tripurari Maharaja as an 'outsider' whose stress on 'substance' over 'form' is code for neglecting the institution Srila Prabhupada worked so hard to establish and exhorted his disciples to maintain. However, this article itself provides evidence that such suspicions may be mistaken. The booklet's tone indicates that Maharaja wrote it in a mood of service to ISKCON and the other preaching missions following Bhaktisiddhanta. Its purpose appears not to criticise any institution, but to critique it with an eye to extending the principle of 'unity in diversity' among all preaching missions. The author advocates revival, not rejection.

It may be that the author's tone is as significant as the essay's subject. Tripurari Maharaja's essay may be an example of what communication scholars have come to call 'invitational argument'. Such a rhetorical approach is concerned less with dominance than with inviting interlocutors into a conversation based on mutual regard and exploration. This may be a model of dialogue more appropriate for discussions among devotees than the more antagonistic response to controversies arising in the movement over the past few years. Maharaja points out that his essay is somewhat exploratory, meant more to open discussion than to close it down. In his introduction he writes, 'I offer this article as food for thought and with openness to information that I may not be aware of that might alter its conclusions... .' Scholars who read Sri Guru-prampara will apprehend more clearly the dynamic nature of the Krsna consciousness movement. Leaders and preachers within the movement who read this booklet — including those in ISKCON — may be better prepared to defend the sampradaya they serve when asked about apparent deviations from Gaudiya traditions or apparent gaps in the lineage. If those who accept Tripurari Maharaja's invitation also examine its manner of presentation, they may benefit from both its substance and its form.

Babhru Dasa

krsna · April 16, 2005

From the Introduction

In this chapter, I wish to examine the sensitive issue of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura's critique of prevalent practices in the sampradaya and his analysis of the modalities of raganuga sadhana. I intend to investigate a number of questions: What was Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura's criticism of siddha-pranali diksa? Why did he not institute it in his mission? Is it possible for his followers to attain Vraja bhakti without this initiation? And what is the guru parampara of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura? While he may have criticized others justly, did he throw the baby out with the bath water when he abandoned the siddha-pranali diksa?

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura's approach to raganuga bhakti

There is no record of Bhaktisiddhanta ever receiving siddha- pranali diksa from his diksa guru, Gaura Kisora dasa babaji. Some of his followers say that he was told by Gaura Kisora that he would realize his svarupa in the syllables of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Bhaktisiddhanta fashioned his own approach to realizing one's spiritual identity and engaging in raganuga sadhana, one that appears to have been based on practices predating siddha-pranali diksa. His approach has its foundation in the sastra and the spiritual common sense that pierces the veil of the literal word addressing its intent. In this approach, he laid more stress on kirtan than smaranam. Kirtan can be practiced by all, whereas smaranam requires a degree of purity for its practice to be effective. Kirtan cleanses the heart and qualifies one for smaranam. Attempts at smaranam for beginners are questionable. Smaranam is not a mental practice, but rather the result of subjugating the mind, and kirtan is most effective in bringing about this subjugation. Thus, although raganuga bhakti involves, smaranam, kirtan is its primary limb. Addressing imitative smaranam, Bhaktisiddhanta wrote in his famous song Vaisnava ke: 'smaranam can occur by the power of kirtan, and only then is solitary service possible.'

In Bhakti-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami emphasizes the relative importance of kirtan over smaranam thus: 'These words of the Visnu Purana show that the glorification of the Lord (kirtan) is much more importance than meditation, which leads in stages to samadhi.' Bhaktisiddhanta dubbed the printing press brhat-mrdanga, great drum, reasoning that the chanting of the sacred name could be heard for a few blocks, whereas the printed kirtan could be heard around the world. He considered the printing press to belong to raga-marga of raganuga sadhana. He stressed this all-consuming notion of kirtana to his disciples and supplemented it with esoteric diksa mantras.

From the Conclusion

As ISKCON continues its worldwide preaching campaign, it needs to pause and ask itself what the goal of such preaching is. Its senior members need greater theoretical acquaintance with their heritage and its esoteric practices, so they don't mistake them to be the property of those whom Bhaktisiddhanta opposed, rather than their own. They need to unite with the rest of the family of Bhaktisiddhanta, which would help them to unite with one another. The members of ISKCON need to remember that other than their Founder Acarya5s stress on preaching, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was concerned that though this they would actually awaken to the inner life of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. They need to remember the criterion for ISKCON's success drawn from the words of Bhaktisiddhanta that Bhaktivedanta Swami sometimes cited: 'If I could perfectly deliver even one soul back to home, back to Godhead, I would think my mission of propagating Krsna consciousness to be successful.'

ISKCON is not alone in falling short of the ideal of Bhaktisiddhanta. Today, his followers, now in various institutions, are faced with a spiritual crisis. They themselves are not unified, what to speak of unifying all Gaudiya Vaisnavas. The followers of Bhaktisiddhanta must take care to guard against institutionalized conceptions of spiritual succession obscuring the spiritual descent. As he was prepared to critique his own tradition, so they in his spirit should be prepared to offer constructive criticism to not only those who continue to inappropriately offer siddha-pranali diksa but when appropriate, to their own lineage as well.

krsna · April 16, 2005

Occasional Religion Should Melt Away

1

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

1

Germany: Dec 14, 2001 (eve)

Namo bhaktivinodaya saccidananda namine gaura-sakti svarupaya rupanuga

varaya te.

[i offer pranama unto Saccidananda Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura who is the

foremost of rupanugas and the embodiment (prakasa) of Sri Gauranga

Mahaprabhu's sakti, Sri Gadadhara Pandita.]

One should understand the proper relationship between guru and disciple, as

exemplified by Sannyasi Thakura and Premadasa Babaji. One should understand

how Sannyasi Thakura followed and served his Gurudeva. One day, in the early

morning, as the reddish sun rays first appeared, the solor orb yet resting

below the earth, Paramahamsa Premadasa Babaji was chanting harinama on his

tulasi beads, sitting in the sacred kunja named Madhavi-mandapa.

Madhava is Krsna, and Madhavi is Radhika. For transcendental remembrance, a

high class of Vaisnava like Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Santana Gosvami

will replicate Vrndavana, as they did when they lived in Ramakeli. There

they excavated two ponds, Radha Kunda and Syama Kunda, and they also made

many kunjas for doing bhajana. In Mayapura, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura also developed Radha Kunda and Syama Kunda, and

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura created Svananda Sukhada Kunja in Godruma.

Similarly, in order to help in always remembering Radha and Krsna, Premadasa

Babaji made Madhavi-mandapa. The flowers and creepers there were very

fragrant, mild and sweet madhavi-lata, and bumblebees used to come there to

sing and take madhu (honey) from those flowers.

While Premadasa was chanting, he first offered pranama to nisanta-lila (the

end of night pastimes) of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and then he remembered

Radha-Krsna's nisanta-lila and kunja-bhanga-lila [when Radha and Krsna have

to leave the kunja]. These sweet pastimes are the object of our life.

Service in asta-kaliya-lila is the objective of our bhajana, and the first

lila is nisanta-lila. All the sakhis, like Lalita, Visakha, Rupa Manjari,

Rati Manjari, and so many others were together with Radha and Krsna in a

kunja, sweet pastimes were transpiring, and Premadasa Babaji was remembering

those pastimes. A high class of devotee divides the 24-hour day into eight -

three hours in the night, three in the day, three the evening, three in the

morning - and they always chant and remember accordingly.

As Premadasa Babaji remembered that nisanta-lila, he heard an old monkey of

Radhika call out, "Jatila! Jatila is coming to reward You! O greatest lampat

(debauchee), she is very soon coming to reward you. Wait a little. She is

coming just now." Radhika and Krsna became alert and prepared to return to

their houses. All the sakhis were very, very, concerned and Sri Radhika

became like a mad person. She asked her sakhis, "Who am I? Where am I going?

What should I do?"

Extremely upset, the sakhis asked, "Why did this old monkey have to come and

disturb us?" At that time Sri Vrnda told the manjaris, or Rupa Manjari may

also sometimes tell them, "Make that monkey silent, please. Make him silent.

This disturbance is ruining everything." In the meantime, Yogamaya arranged

that Srimati Radhika could quickly, in minutes, enter Her house in Yavat.

In his internal gopi form, Premadasa Babaji was serving both Radha and

Krsna, with a leaning toward Radhika. Radhika was unhappy, thinking, "Where

am I? Where am I going?" She had forgotten everything in that deep mood of

anticipated separation. Premadasa Babaji was in a faint, weeping, in the

line of Rupa Gosvami. This is our object as well, but as far as we are

concerned, we waste so much of our time and energy in maintenance. Though we

are devotees, our whole time is entangled and we have no time for

remembering and chanting. We think, "If we give our whole time to devotional

activities, our business will fail. How, then, will we be able to maintain

ourselves?" We have no belief in Krsna, and we have no belief that He will

continue our maintenance. He is the main root of our maintenance. We think,

"I maintain myself. If I will give my whole energy to krsna-bhajana as this

Babaji did, then who will maintain my wife, my children, and my

paraphernalia?" This worry is endless.

Babaji was totally engaged in bhajana. He forgot that he was Paramahamsa

Babaji, and instead he was thinking, "I am the maidservant of Rupa Manjari."

He was able to see those nearby, like Sannyasi Thakura, but at the same time

he remained in that transcendental mood and called out, "O Ramana Manjari,

you should stop that old monkey." He pointed to the sannyasi and addressed

him, "O, Ramana Manjari!"

The Thakura thought: "My Gurudeva has indicated my constitutional form. I

firmly believe his words. I am a servant of Radhika. This is my

transcendental position. This is my form. Now I shall remember these

things."

He still had no tilaka, no mala, and no Vaisnava dress, but internally he

was totally surrendered. We are not like that. We wear very big tilaka, and

big, big neck beads. Our japa mala is not less than 5 kilos, and we can even

spend $1000 to steal the mala of Haridasa Thakura from Puri. Someone once

thought, "If I can take that mala, my bhajana will be very high." He somehow

gave $1000 to a greedy Orissan pujari in Srila Haridasa Thakura's samadhi,

and the pujari later on claimed that someone had stolen them. This was a

great offence.

Someone else thought, "The very small beads that my Gurudeva has given will

not do." He therfore told his Gurudeva, "Gurudeva, a monkey has taken my

beads," or "I forget where I kept my beads. Oh, please, I brought very good

mala from Vrndavana. The price was $100." They think that simply having big

mala will suffice, but Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself used to count His names

on knotted cloth.

Pointing to the sannyasi, Premadasa Babaji said, "O sakhi, you should

silence that monkey." At that time Sannyasa Thakura became realized. A guru

will give his disciple that realization when he is free from all kinds of

unwanted and unfavorable habits, when he has nothing else to do, when he has

forgotten everything, when his heart is totally pure, and when he is serving

his gurudeva completely. In this way, Sannyasi Thakura's Gurudeva revealed

to him his real self.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has clearly written in the third part of Jaiva

Dharma that those who take vesa (saffron or white cloth of a renunciate),

danda, and copin in an immature stage, will give it up and fall down after

some time. The mantra of sannyasa and that of babaji-vesa is the same. The

mantra is to help the devotee do bhajana in a gopi mood. One should not

give, and one should not take, these things in an immature state.

When the devotee has complete greed to serve Radha-Krsna, he will be at

least in the stage of asakti or ruci. He will jump at once in this stage of

ruci. There will be no need of his first coming in sraddha, anartha-nivrtti,

and so on. Anartha-nivrtti is already accomplished. That devotee has passed

anartha-nivrtti. He has no anarthas. Sannyasi Thakura had become free from

anarthas at the time of attaining brahma-jnana, and now he was on the

platform of remembering Radha and Krsna's sweet pastimes.

You should know all these truths and try to develop like in this way - not

jumping beforehand and reading Govinda Lilamrta and Krsna Bhavanamrta. I

stand at a distance in awe, and fold my palms and offer pranama to both

books, but I know that all of you keep three or four copies of each. I am

waiting for my maturity. Some of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja's

disciples once came to me asking, "Please help us! Please give us

siddha-pranali." I replied, " I cannot help myself. How can I help you?"

These disciples then went to the sahajiya babajis at Radha Kunda. Those

sahajiya babajis then gave them 'siddha pranamli' for five anna paisa,

although they never knew the meaning of siddha-pranali. Real siddha-pranali

has been explained by Bhaktivinoda Thakura. I was searching for these new

babajis, and I have now heard that they are married. Don't be like them. Be

disciples like Sannyasi Thakura. A disciple like this Sannyasi Thakura will

never fall down.

Premadasa Babaji Maharaja then became silent, and from that very day this

sannyasi became known as 'Vaisnava dasa.' He was now chanting and

remembering Radha and Krsna and the eight parts of Their day.

One day Vaisnava dasa fell at the lotus feet of Premadasa Babaji Maharaja,

and asked a question. It was not actually a question, but a jijnasu. What is

the difference between a question and jijnasu? Jijnasu means 'humble

inquiry'. The disciple addresses his guru, "If I am qualified to hear the

answer, please tell me; and if I am not qualified to hear, I don't want to

hear. Please warn me not to ask such questions until I'm qualified." This is

the etiquette of a pure disciple. He does not say, "You must answer my

question, otherwise I will give you up." This is not the mood of a devotee.

Babaji Maharaja replied, "You are actually qualified. I will try to answer

your question according to my knowledge."

Vaisnava dasa said, "Prabhu, this is my question: I have heard for a long

time about dharma, religion. Dharma is glorified in all circles. All

cultures say that without religion, one is like an animal - like a dog, a

hog, or a pig. All scriptures and all religious books teach, "Dharma is

everything. We are doing everything for dharma. We can shoot the whole world

for dharma. Buddhists, Christians, Shaivites, Hindus, and Vaisnavas all say

that without religion a person is like an animal. However, their

explanations of dharma are different. If dharma is one, the explanation of

dharma should be one. But I am very worried that what I have heard from

various persons about the glorification, explanation, and meaning of dharma

are all different. There is so much difference in them. I cannot imagine

why, since if dharma is one, why are the meanings differ among various kinds

of religious persons. If dharma is one, then why do they not give one

explanation?"

What is the difference between sunyavada and sankaravada? Sankara's guru was

Gaurapada and his paramaguru was Govindapada. Gaurapada and Govindapada were

both totally Buddhist, and Sankara was a nirvisesa brahmavadi. He

established the Vedas with a brahmavada interpretation. Sarvam kalvidam

brahma. He said there is nothing 'dual' at all. Everything is God. He

preached the idea that the appearance of many different things is due to

maya. We ask the followers of this idea, "From where has this second thing

known as maya come? Sankara preached sat-asat anirvachaniya-tvat. The

Ultimate Truth is neither sat nor asat. It is neither existent nor

non-existent. It cannot be defined or expressed in words. It cannot be

contemplated. But this is also ultimately zero, just as is preached in

Buddhism. Nowadays Buddhism is flourishing. It is increasing very rapidly

because his friend Kali-yuga is helping so much.

And what is the Muslims' idea of dharma? They say that Allah has no shape,

no qualities, and no mercy. Then what is the use of Allah if he cannot

speak, he cannot realize our pain and worry, and he has no mercy, no form,

and no ears to hear. Their conception of Allah is the same as brahmavada or

Sankara philosophy. It is the same thing.

So, "Bhagavata kahe taha pan purna cale" Srimad-Bhagavatam (SB1.1.2) states

that all kinds of cheating religious systems are kicked out." This verse is

translated into Bengali:

prthivite yaha kichu dharma name cale

bhagavata kahe taha paripurna chale

" According to Bhagavata, whatever is going on throughout the whole world in

the name of religion is all cheating."

[sripad Pundarika prabhu reads from Jaiva Dharma:] Nature arises from the

elementary structure of an object.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Any object, however created, receives its

intrinsic nature at the time of its creation. That inherent nature naturally

present with that object since its creation.

dharmah projjhita-kaitavo ’tra paramo nirmatsaranam satam vedyam vastavam atra vastu sivadam tapa-trayonmulanam srimad-bhagavate maha-muni-krte kim va parair isvarah sadyo hrdy avarudhyate ’tra krtibhis susrusubhis tat-ksanat

(SB1.1.2)

"Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially

motivated, this Bhagavata Purana propounds the highest truth, which is

understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest

truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such

truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhagavatam, compiled by

the great sage Vyasadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God

realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one

attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhagavatam, by this

culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart."

Srimad Bhagavatam revealed the eternal truth, not only five thousand years

ago, but before creation. Srimad Bhagavatam is transcendental. It never

changes. Like Krsna, it is eternal. Everything is there in Srimad

Bhagavatam. Those who say, "There is no God, or if there is God, He has no

form, no attributes, no quality, and no power," are propounding the same

falsity as Sankara did, or as Gaurapada claimed on behalf of Buddhism.

Vaisnava philosophy is real. There is one God, Krsna, and He has unlimited

manifestations like Rama, Nrsimha, and Vamana. He has so many vibhutis -

powers, like the demigods, but they are not brahma. They are servants of

Krsna, as are all goddesses. All truths are included in Vaisnavism. There

are so many new religions, and their proponents present so many books. When

Communism appeared, it spread everywhere like a forest fire, and after some

time it collapsed. All modern religions are like this. In India, Sikhism

originally began to protect Hindu or Vaisnava dharma, but now it is in full

motion as a totally separate thing.

Having heard the question of Vaisnava dasa, Babaji Maharaja offered pranama

to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Prabhu, and Radha and Krsna. He prayed,

"He krsna karuna sindhu, dina bandhu jagat pate…" and then he began, "Vande

ham sri guru sri yuta . kamalam…" He then told Vaisnava dasa, "You are

most fortunate to have a question like this. You have reminded me of the

entirety of krsna-tattva, and in this tattva exists radha-tattva and all

other tattvas."

[srila Narayana Maharaja speaks Hindi and Sripad Pundarika Prabhu

translates:] An object is called a 'vastu' and is eternal nature is known as

its nitya-dharma, or eternal religion. By Krsna's desire, when an object is

formed, a particular nature is inherent in that structure as an eternal

concomitant factor. This very nature is the nitya-dharma, or 'eternal

religion' of the object.

Premadasa Babaji explained that the nature of an object becomes altered or

distorted when a change takes place within it, either by force of

circumstance or due to contact with other objects. With the passing of time,

this distorted nature becomes fixed and appears to be permanent, as if it

were the eternal nature of that object. This distorted nature is not the

svabhava, or true nature. It is that nature which is acquired through

long-term association. This temporary condition occupies the place of the

factual nature, and becomes identified as the svabhava.

For example, water is an object, and its svabhava or nature is liquidity.

When water solidifies due to certain circumstances, it becomes ice. The

acquired nature of solidity takes the place of its inherent liquid nature.

In reality, this acquired nature is not eternal. Rather, it is occasional or

temporary, arising because of certain external causes. When this external

cause is no longer effective, this acquired nature vanishes automatically. On the other hand, the svabhava is eternal. The object's core nature is not

distorted. It may appear distorted, but it still remains inseparably

connected with its object. The original nature will certainly become evident

again when the proper time and circumstances arise. The living entity's

eternal nature is to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because

of a certain cause or circumstances, he has forgotten his eternal nature or

duty - the service to the Supreme Lord. When the fortunate living entity

receives sadhu-sanga, in that association his eternal nature can again be

revived.

If you will understand these first two chapters, you can then understand the

whole book. The fundamental basis of the entire book depends on these two

chapters. The other chapters are comparatively very easy, and these two are

the most essential. You should not think, "What is the need of this

philosophy? We will distribute books, and very easily we will remember

asta-kaliya-lila. What is the use of these bogus things? It is too hard a

subject, and it is without rasa. It is a dry subject."

Premadasa Babaji Maharaja is now concluding his explanation of ‘vastu’. We

will have to know this subject matter one day. Your arcana and other

devotional activities will not help you if you do not know these facts from

your siksa-guru. One day you will have to become realized, surely, so why

not now? Why not today? You should try to begin, today, to realize these

truths. If you do not understand your transcendental nature, then your book

distribution, your reading, and even your sannyasa will not help you.

Sravanam is first. First hear.

The svabhava, true nature, of an object is its nitya-dharma. What is that

true nature? We are soul, coming from eternal Krsna. "Jivera svarupa hoya

nitya Krsna-dasa." This is our intrinsic nature. We are all Krsna dasa or

Krsna dasi, in any form. This is transcendental. It cannot be changed. This

physical body may be changed, but that never changes.

The aquired nature or nisarga is its nimittika-dharma or occasional religion

or function. What is occasional and what is transcendental? If one knows

this difference, he can do real bhajana and serve Krsna. It is therefore

essential to know these truths. We should not think, "I am the wife of that

person,I am husband of that person,I am from Nigeria,I am from

England,I am Christian,Hindu,Vaisnava." This will not do. Somehow

we must know these truths. Try to know. Even if you have no taste there is

no harm. Still you should try. Even if you have no taste in the name, still

you should chant. Even if you have no taste in hearing all these topics you

should think,

"I will be here, somehow or other, even if I have to take chili powder. I

must hear. I will go, again and again."

If one does not know what is the transcendental nature of the jiva, and what

is occasional, temporary, one is bound to think, "What I am now, this is

real." No one can help such a person. Krsna sometimes comes in the form of

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Rama, and others, and He sends His own associates -

sometimes Hanuman, sometimes Bhima, and sometimes Ramanuja and others. He

sends our Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, Srila

Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami

Maharaja, and my Gurudeva. He sends such help to the conditioned souls.

Somehow that occasional religion should melt and go away, and the real

transcendental, intrinsic nature, to serve Krsna, should manifest. Try to

think, try to read, and try to follow. If you do not understand, again and

again serve your Gurudeva. Serve, and then inquire. Don't inquire without

serving. By that seva, Guru will be satisfied, and like a cow he will give

milk. His milk is hari-katha. You cannot have this without serving, and

therefore you should always remember this Gita principle.

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from

him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can

impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth." (Bg.4.34)

That Guru should be tattva-darsi, a realized soul. If he is not a realized

soul, he cannot fully express all these truths to you. By his causeless

mercy, the bona fide guru will inspire you. He will give you the power to

understand and realize all these truths. Surrender to a soul like that.

Gaura Premanande.

krsna · April 16, 2005

From "The Bhagavat" by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur

The following points deal with the symptoms of Party Spirit, facing our young Vaisnava community.

Party Spirit can manifest subtly or grossly in a preaching mission, many times with overzealous followers. One of the serious problems with party spirit is that it can potentially damage or destroy faith and progress in other missions. It is the duty of an Acharya to protect disciples in the beginning stages of their faith from outside influences that may disturb their tender creeper of devotion. But with the emerging world Vaisnava community we should try to harmonize with a common universal interest of saving souls in this world under the banner of Lord Chaitanya's Sankirtan Movement, rather than clash with different centers of local interest. Love, trust and respect to all sincere vaisnavas is a fundamental principle of sadhu sanga in the active and living tree of the parampara of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Those engaging in party spirit will preach that only one person (or mission) is really trustworthy. Some will preach that their connection provides a higher seed of Bhakti which will not be equaled by others. They may not disqualify all Acharyas in their preaching, but they will surely hold their contemporaries in contempt, especially if they have taken up the service of Acharya. In extreme cases, followers may try to transfer the exclusive credibility to be the "next" Acharya to another spiritual master at the cost of all the other active Acharyas.

Some party spirit preachers may create doubts in new and old devotees about other spiritual masters. Such doubts will circulate and damage the faith of disciples of other spiritual masters. Party spirit preachers will warn others with comments like: "He may fall down, he is only a madman." Then they may say; "My Guru is Uttama. Therefore, you should choose my Guru." Or, if someone already has a Guru, they may say or suggest, "You should reject your present guru unless he surrenders unto my Guru."

Party spirit preachers discourage acceptance of the noble attempt of other sincere vaisnavas of continuing and spreading the mission of their Guru as Acharyas, and openly question the motivations of such persons who have accepted the Acharya responsibilities. On the contrary, my Sannyasa Guru and Vaisnava scholar, Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja, accepted that young Western-born Vaisnavas had to continue the mission of their Guru and he further encouraged other Western Vaisnavas to open new missions and to initiate disciples. Such Acharyas are the creators of further Acharyas and preaching leaders.

Party spirit preachers do not like to associate with other Vaisnavas who are not under their control. They resent such organizations as the Visva Vaisnava Raj Sabha or ignore its existence and the invitations they receive to participate in and develop joint Vaisnava activities in an attempt to bless the whole world with Vaisnava strength and 'Unity in Diversity'.

Party spirit leads to limiting the Acharya expansion of the Guru parampara to their election or appointment ideas. What is forgotten is that a real Acarya will always be self effulgent. If that would not be the case, how could anyone in the world explain how the non-appointed and non-elected Parama Pujyapad A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, my divine master, affectionately known amongst his disciples like his own Gurudeva as 'Srila Prabhupada', single-handedly spread Vaisnavism in the western world and also draw the attention of all Indians as well to the glories of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Party spirit may exploit the highest bhakti philosophy as a recruiting technique by challenging the newcomers or members of other missions with such questions as:

" Does your Guru give siddha pranali?"

What is the Adikara of your Guru?"Does this or that Guru know his own spiritual form in Goloka (siddha deha)?"

Party spirit preachers are not generally kind to others (except while recruiting).

Those engaged in party spirit are often hypocritical, misrepresent the truth with lies or distortions and are not afraid to commit Vaisnava Aparadha or Sastra Ninda. Anyone showing such symptoms of party spirit will only distance himself from the love, trust and mercy of the previous Acharyas and the sincere devotional community.

Vaisnava dasanudas

Swami B.A. Paramadvaiti - Ekadasi End of Kartika 21-11-96 Vrindavan Dham

April 17, 2005

I forgot to make some points:

From my readings of the biographies, I did not see any specific reference to Mahaprabhu either giving or receiving "siddha-pranali." In fact, I do not recall him even giving an official initiation for Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis, even though both of them are considered his disciples.

Who can say for sure what Mahaprabhu did? The first verse of the last chapter of CC makes a reference to 'prema-diksa', although some say that this is metaphorical. On the other hand, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta seems to be of the opinion that Mahaprabhu did initiate, but that His biographers deliberately omitted to mention these incidents in their works so as not to portray Him as a mantra-guru. I do not have this reference immediately but if you want it then let me know and I will look for it. It is somewhere in Sri Bhaktisiddhanta's purports to Caitanya Bhagavata.

As far as it being unnecessary, there was already the quote from VCT's RVC. He mentioned three possibilities, one of which was caitya guru, from which one could get this sacred knowledge. What more can I say? I think VCT knew what he was talking about...

However, I do not see how your translation of the disputed statement changes the fact that VCT believes that some sadhakas, purified by their practice of bhakti, will get the knowledge by means other than a traditional raganuga guru. It appears to be the same thing that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati taught.

Sri Vishwanatha Chakravarti definitely knew what he was talking about. In his own commentary to the verse under question, he says: Adi bhajanam Arabhya kevalayA bhaktyaivAtma zodhana tAratamyena zrava kIrtana smaraNAdi tAratamyAt man mAdhuryAnubhava tAratamyaM prApnotItyAha yathA yatheti; As one commences the path of bhajana and cleanses one's heart more and more through the practice of pure devotion, consisting of hearing, chanting and remembering the glories of the Lord, one will be able to experience My sweetness more and more. This is described in this verse."

So I'll expect that it now becomes obvious exactly what Sri Chakravartipada meant. I would say that his own commentary on his own shloka would be a better and more important interpretation that Sri Bhaktisiddhanta's or anyone else's.

For one to have a relationship outside of marriage is considered very improper. So, for example, if one had a girlfriend, can he still have the lobha to practice raganuga-bhakti?

Having a girlfriend as such is considered an illicit relationship and is against the practice of dharma as well as Sri Chaitanya's teachings (stri-sangi krsna abhakta ara). It is nothing to do with the arousal of lobha as such.

This is what I want to understand clearly - is it possible to have lobha in spite of gross anarthas.

Adau sraddha, Sadhu-sanga, Bhajana-kriya, Anartha-nivritti. The purifying practice of bhajana has to be engaged in for anartha-nivritti to be accomplished. And given that anartha-nivritti is not a clear-cut stage but is something that carries on right uptil the attainment of prema, yes, one can have lobha in spite of gross anarthas. Because lobha is simply the desire to attain similar feelings to the residents of Vraja upon hearing of them. After this lobha has arisen, the sadhaka engages in bhajana under the direction of Sri Guru in order to eradicate his anarthas. Bear in mind that we are not just talking of having-a-girlfriend anarthas or eating-eggs-anarthas, we are also speaking of anarthas that have been deeply entrenched in us over the course of all the previous lifetimes that we have had. The practice of this raganuga-bhajana aims to eradicate them all, and the arousal of lobha and its maintenance through the practice of hearing and chanting etc, provide the impetus and motivation to do so. But obviously, sadhakas are doing this bhajana to attain the company of their beloved Radha-Krsna and anartha-nivritti etc are by-products of that sublime desire.

April 17, 2005

I first began praciticing rangunga bhakti sadhana 22 years ago. I studied Rupa Goswami's plays as well as other books of the Goswamis and others and practiced what they taught. At the time I started raganuga sadhana, madhava was what? 3 years old? And yourself, when did you begin your raganuga practice? Have you realized your siddha form? Have you come into contact with Radha? Personally?

I didn't have or need a siddha-pranali, so I know anyone who says you do need one, is utterly without experience in the matter.

To engage in the practice of raganuga-bhakti, taking the shelter of guru is important. The insturction of Srila Rupa Gosvami is that one should take diksa and siksa from such a guru before once commences this sadhana. So Shiva, who is your guru? What have the Goswamis taught in their books? If having or needing a siddha-pranali is unnecessary, then how exactly do you fulfil the instructions for your raganuga-dhyana according to the outlines of Dhyanacandra Goswami's paddhati?

kailasa · April 17, 2005

Baladev states that the soul manifests its own original form. The soul doesn't get a new "spiritual" body when he is liberated.

Yes, it is true.

Spiritual body it is soul himself. Eternal. Cit sakti too. Cit it is body, form, ananda it is relation with Lord. In material world soul simply cover by maya.

kailasa · April 17, 2005

Who can say for sure what Mahaprabhu did?

Sastra. Do not be fool.

If "siddha pranali" autoritete practic many autority sastra was write this. Any way some external simptoms spiritual body do not has essence spiritual life. Spiritual body it is spiritual emotion, your spiritual name it is not main.

If you has spiritual name, what it possible has bhava? It is obvious.

If you has DEVOTION all another emanate - name, dress ets.

Some guru - "you name - ..., your dress - ..." What use? /images/graemlins/smile.gif)) It is not give any spiritual. It is give for you spiritual power? Bhava? Foolisness.

You dress as you like for Krisna.

April 17, 2005

I am glad that you have given us a name to call you by now, Bogus Rascal.

Yes I'm also glad. It was specially for you since you were so obsessed with my identity. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am not going to respond to all your rant, which is so full of distorted logic that I really can't be bothered.

Really? I followed the logic that is given in the translation of Bhakti Hridaya Vana Maharaja (aka Bon Maharaja) which you yourself use and which I have a copy too. The sequence of verses in the original BRS do not support the logic that you present, sorry. Its just as well that you will not respond because I fear that you can't. If you feel that the logic I followed as presented by BH Bon is distorted, well...

You say that Srila Rupa Goswami mentioned this topic in relation to whether males to attain the bhava and form of a female.

Yes, you are right here.

Well thanks, but it wasn't me who actually said that. That is the translation of B H Bon. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I said, that in the age when those sages were living, siddha-pranali as we know it today was not practiced. I also stated that in the case of those sages we see that people can attain realization of a madhurya-rasa attraction to Bhagavan without knowing about any "siddha-pranali". Surely this statement is borne out by the facts. Those saged did attain gopi-bhava and they didn't know anything about any siddha-pranali concept.

Fair enough. Bearing in mind that Sri Rupa Goswami is using the Rishis as an example of males who can attain a "female" bhava (according to BH Bon) to prove his point, he elsewhere states quite specifically that seva is to be done in the sadhaka-rupa and in the siddha-rupa. What does he mean by this? And what does Mahaprabhu Himself mean when He also tells Sanatan Goswami that sadhana is to be done in both the sadhaka and siddha dehas? You have not answered these points because apparently they are "spurious" to you. Very well. I will accept that you have no answer.

Sri Rupa Goswami happened to have been discussing the Dandakranya sages in relation to whether males can attain the bhava and form of a female. But the fact that he was discussing one topic does not preclude us from having further insights based on the implications of what he says.

seva sadhana-rupena siddha-rupa catra hi. What does this mean, Murali? Your "further insights" just happen to be against what was taught by Gopalaguru and Dhyanacandra Goswamis as penned in their paddhatis, as well as the views of Sri Narottama, Sri Vishwanatha, etc.

Bearing in mind that to follow the path of Mahaprabhu it is imperative to follow His path that has been chalked out for us by the Goswamis whom Mahaprabhu requested to set the standards for His followers, as well as the Acaryas who follow these Goswamis. As Gaudiya Vaishnavas we are meant to follow both the bhava and the standards of the later mahajanas who were directly empowered by Mahaprabhu to write down His theology and to establish the standards to be followed by His followers.You woulda thought this was enough, but no. We should be thankful that our Acaryas have made it clear for us:

mahAjanera yei patha, tAte habe anurata

pUrbApara kariyA bicAra

sAdhana-smaraNa-lIlA, ihAte na kara helA

kAya mane kariyA susAra

"With great affection I will follow the path of the Mahajanas, differentiating between the previous and the later. Never neglect the sadhana of lila-smarana, for it is the very essence of the mind."

And just in case that wasn't clear enough, Sri Viswanatha comments on this verse:

daNDakAraNya-vAsi munayo bRhat vAmanokta zrutayaz ca candrakAnti jayadeva vidyApati caNDi dAsa bilvamaGgalAdayaz ca pUrva mahAjanAH SaD gosvAminaH para mahAjanAH.

"The sages of the Dandakaranya-forest, the Srutis mentioned in Brihad Vamanokta, Candrakanti, Jayadeva, Vidyapati, Candi Das, Bilvamangala and others are previous mahajanas. The six Gosvamis are later mahajanas."

Oops. It looks like your Dandakaranya Rishis are counted as earlier Mahajanas which Sri Narottama sys we should differentiate from the later ones. This fits very well with Sri Rupa Goswami's simply quoting them as an example of how males attain "female" bhavas and doesn't allow you to have any "further insights", sorry.

You feel so certain that the things you have said are scripturally sound and perfect in their logical presentation. You feel you have "defeated" me and my (Gurus) ideas here today, just as you and your friends "defeated" me in the past.

Murali, I am not particularly interested in "defeating" you. You seem to be obsessed with this type of to-and-fro debates and I am not. Regarding your gurus, the humble suggestion has been made to you many a time that it is your responsibility to see how closely your gurus follow the teachings of the past Acaryas. However, since this topic has been raised in the past countless times before, you have made exactly the same points before and exactly the same refutatons have been made against you. To see you stubbornly making these arguments again and again becomes very boring if not amusing. I thought you might have learnt anything new in the meantime but obviously not. It is like playing a game of chess with the same person in exactly the same way, using the same moves and so on. It may be entertaining the first couple of times but after a while it gets boring and predictable.

Indeed, implicit in the mode of speech you employ is a shouting, attacking, patronising, insulting style of writing. Since Muralidhar doesn't agree with your conclusions, he must be "ignorant" or "dishonest".

Please, don't try to run away with this type of appeal. Nobody here has shouted against you. You should Look back at your own postings and see who has been doing the shouting or insulting considering all of your remarks towards traditionalist Vaishnavas. Your behaviour in the past has not endeared you either. Again, it doesn't bother me if you agree with me or not since I know from experience that discussing these things with you is like trying to pour water into an upturned pot, sadly. The only reason why I even bother with you is because there may be some new people around who might believe the mistaken propaganda that you spread and fall for it when they have indeed been dishonest readings of the text. Yes, dishonest. Rupa Goswami did not use the Rishis as an example of having no "siddha pranali" and this is shown clearly even in the translation of Bhakti Hridaya Vana. As far as your Govinda-bhasya argument goes, I've already told you that I do not agree with the translation or interpretation that you to. In my cursory readings of Vedanta-bhasyas I have come to a different understanding, which I am still researching by the way but it is not the same as yours.

Ityalam.

Sincerely,

Bogus Rascal

P.S, I thought you said "adieu"?

April 17, 2005

Earlier I quoted this verse: Brhadbagavatmrtam 2.2.141-4

While you're at it, could you give me the original Sanskrit for Brhad-Bhag 2.1.121 please?

Contrary to what "Bogus Rascal" seems to believe, this doesn't mean that they are given a spiritual body.

Muralidhar, what does sarupya-mukti mean?

"Bogus Rascal" is giving an improper meaning to the word "attain". This topic in fact had been discussed earlier, on Page 3 of this thread, where I had written.

Yes, I've already told you that I'm not sure that the translation you're using is that accurate and nobody has provided the Sanskrit for it yet. Besides that, my own studies of different bhasyas lead me to a very different conclusion than yours. I'm still researching this so I won't speak more on this until I get some conclusive understandings on the matter. But for now, I currently disagree with your interpretation of that Brhad-Bhag sloka and your Vedanta-sutra quote.

It is hard to work out exactly what you mean here, Bogus Rascal. In the first line you say the translations I gave didn't support my conclusions. In the second sentence you say the reason I rely on them is that they support my conclusions. So please tell me, do these translations support my conclusions, or do they not?

As far as my own studies have shown, they don't. I could be wrong and I'm quite happy to admit that if or when I am proved wrong, but for now, no.

Here then, is Sankara's translation to . 4.1.1, translated by George Thibaut:

How smart to use Sankara's translation. Do you know what Sankara means by "true nature"? Have you studied any of his other works, for example, Viveka-cudamani?

Indeed, we have Ramanuja, Sankara, Krishnananda and Baladeva Vidyabhusana all agreeing on this point

Unfortunately Swami Krishnananda disagrees with you:

"According to Sankara, the God described in the Brahma Sutra is the Creator God, not the Absolute, -- a position that he maintains which is opposed to every other Acharya's interpretation -- the Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka, Vallabha, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the Sakta and Saiva philosophers. All these have almost a uniform view; against all which Sankara stands." - Swami Krishnananda, 'An Analysis of the Brahma Sutras', Chap. 12.

How nice of him to give us a mention. Note that this section is discussing the liberated state of the jiva and the question of its "liberation". Since Sankara apparently holds (according to Krishnananda) that the God being referred to throughout the Vedanta-sutra is Saguna Brahman and not the Absolute, this is opposed by every other Vedantacarya including those of Saiva schools.

Sorry again, Muralidhar. And by the way, since when did you start taking instruction from the disciplic succession of Ramakrishna?

Consequently, contrary to the opinion of followers of the "siddha-pranali" school of thought, a devotee does not need to be "given" or "awarded" a spiritual body by their guru. The spiritual body is innately present within us and it will manifest in our consciousness at the appropriate time. That is, when we become pure enough to perceive it.

This contradicts Jaiva Dharma.

A devotee can realize their siddha-deha without ever being told about a list of predecessor diksa gurus, in a list called "siddha-pranali". With these words, I rest my case.

According to this logic, Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur is not a bona-fide guru since he followed raganuga-bhajana (as traditionally practised) along with siddha-pranali and asta-kaliya-lila smaran. Oh , and he also thought that siddha-pranali was very important enough to give it to his own diksita disciples. Sorry again.

Sincerely,

Bogus Rascal.

kailasa · April 17, 2005

, he elsewhere states quite specifically that seva is to be done in the sadhaka-rupa and in the siddha-rupa.

Sadhana rupa it is material body - man, woman (body woman too not siddha body /images/graemlins/smile.gif)), animales ets). Siddha rupa it is soul. Form soul, spiritual emotions. But siddha rupa (chant, listen, memory Krisna), rasa ets it is not bogus "siddha pranali".

Your bogus "siddha pranali" is siddha rupa?

P.S, I thought you said "adieu"?

Do not worry, boy Bogus. Muralidhar Prabhu will be write as he desire. Do not press him. You write -

Nobody here has shouted against you.

But now you press Murali. Yes? Bogus Prabhu /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

April 17, 2005

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, a pure devotee of Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Radha-Govinda, sent into this world from Goloka to preach pure devotion, was aware of his own siddha identity. And he was able to reveal the siddha identity of his disciples - he has that transcendental capacity. Glory, glory, glory to Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur!

I originally asked these questions to the Guest aho calls himself Alpa-medhasa, which he has not yet replied to, and I would like to ask you them as well:

How did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta know his identity?

How would you know if he is sure of it, if he didn't get it from his guru?

How did he know the identity of Bhakti Vilas Tirtha?

Was Sri Bhaktisiddhanta's identity or the identity of Bhakti Vilas Tirtha revealed to Sri Bhaktisiddhanta from "within" or so?

If the siddha-deha is innate and manifests through due chanting of nama-japa, then by all rights Bhakti Vilas Tirtha would have known his own details in due course of time through the virtue of his japa. Why did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta "give" the name information to BV Tirtha?

Also, why only the name? What about the other 10 details or so as practiced by Sri Bhaktivinode?

Why through letter and not face-to-face?

Why did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta give this information to Bhakti Vilas Tirtha and not to other disciples including BP Puri Maharaja, BR Sridhara Maharaja (your own guru), Srila Prabhupada, etc? Does it imply that these disciples were less deserving in some way?

If Sri Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is so fortunate in this way, then why did Srila Prabhupada make several harsh statements on record against him?

When Sri Bhaktivinoda follows the traditionalist path along with siddha-pranali and astakaliya-lila smaran etc, why is it that the standards (such as innate form etc) suddenly change within one generation?

I would genuinely like to know the answers to these questions ever since you told us the story of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta and Sri Bhakti Vilas Tirtha as I am interested in the process of siddha-realisation as practised in the Gaudiya Matha, so I would appreciate the answers, thanks.

Sincerely,

Bogus Rascal.

April 17, 2005

Siddha rupa it is soul. Form soul, spiritual emotions.

You haven't been following this discussion properly. Sri Jiva Goswami, Sri Mukunda das Goswami and Sri Vishwanatha Chakravarti all say siddha-rupa mentally MIND body is. Chaitanya also say.

Bogus Rascal.

muralidhar_das · April 17, 2005

In regard to BRS, I have Bon Maharaj's translation. But I also have Srila Sridhar Maharaj's edition of Bhaktirasamrtasindu in Bengali. As I said earlier, I have a Bengali devotee living with me and he speaks and reads Sanskrit. We study Bhaktirasamrtasindu sometimes.

In fact, in a discussion with Madhava I had last year, we discussed errors in Bon Maharaj's edition.

You quoted the statements below

"With great affection I will follow the path of the Mahajanas, differentiating between the previous and the later. Never neglect the sadhana of lila-smarana, for it is the very essence of the mind."

and

"The sages of the Dandakaranya-forest, the Srutis mentioned in Brihad Vamanokta, Candrakanti, Jayadeva, Vidyapati, Candi Das, Bilvamangala and others are previous mahajanas. The six Gosvamis are later mahajanas."

</blockquote>

Yes we shall follow the teaching of the six Goswamis as our life and soul.

Where is there a description of ekadasa-bhava and siddha-pranali in any of the writings of the Six Goswamis?

Since these things are not mentioned, a strict follower of the Six Goswamis may choose to reject ekadasa-bhava and siddha-pranali as inauthentic.

Furthermore, in regard to not following the example of the sages of Dandaka forest who are "previous mahajans", as I have stated many times before when this topic was raised, I am not suggesting that anyone should act in the way that the sages of Dandaka forest acted. My point is to simply point this out: "Those sages did attain gopi-bhava and they didn't know anything about any siddha-pranali concept."

To which you youself have now replied. "Fair enough".

Indeed.

Your attempt to avoid a proper discussion about the matter of whether a liberated soul gets "given" a spiritual body shows YOUR weakness. A fact that is also borne out by the fact that you refuse to reveal your name to us.

So be it.

But in fact we have Ramanuja, Sankara, Krishnananda and Baladeva Vidyabhusana all agreeing on this point:

The soul on liberation attains to its original nature and it does not acquire new attributes.

That is, the liberated soul does not get given a spiritual body but instead it manifests its innate form and opulences.

In Vedanta Sutra we read how Vyasa has considered this topic and that Vyasa has made this statement as his answer:

Sütra 4.4.1

sampadyävirbhävaù svena-çabdät

sampadya—of he who has attained; ävirbhävaù—manifestation; svena—svena; çabdät—by the word.

</blockquote>

That is, the soul who attains liberation becomes "self-manifest".

Ramanuja, Sankara, Krishnananda and Baladeva Vidyabhusana are all only expanding on what Vyasa said. Each does this according to their own understanding. But every one of them says the soul manifests his own nature. None of them say the soul enters into a new body or form or new nature.

Finally, in regard to my saying "Adieu", I said that if anyone had anything to discuss with me now then please do so, because I will not be responding on this thread after Sunday. Today is Sunday in Australia.

kailasa · April 17, 2005

SBST write about form because for babajis know - in our parampara we all know. Another disciples (who mathure) know siddha body without letter.

SBST liberated soul He is not ordinary soul. Srila Prabhupada too.

Bhakti Vilas Tirtha not so mathure, then SBST write for him letter. For help. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha not so mathure then Srila Prabhupada make several harsh statements on record against him.

May be Bhakti Vilas Tirtha very desire know own rasa, then SBST very kind write letter for him. He is send letter for all vaisnavas will be know glory Bhakti Vilas Tirtha. SBST very kind for him.

Srila Prabhupada it bhagavata acarya, expansion Lord Caitanya. Really He is NEVER do not ordinary disciple.

Humility it is good Prabhu.

muralidhar_das · April 17, 2005

Bogus Rascal said:

I originally asked these questions to the Guest aho calls himself Alpa-medhasa, which he has not yet replied to, and I would like to ask you them as well:

How did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta know his identity?

How would you know if he is sure of it, if he didn't get it from his guru?

How did he know the identity of Bhakti Vilas Tirtha?

Was Sri Bhaktisiddhanta's identity or the identity of Bhakti Vilas Tirtha revealed to Sri Bhaktisiddhanta from "within" or so?

If the siddha-deha is innate and manifests through due chanting of nama-japa, then by all rights Bhakti Vilas Tirtha would have known his own details in due course of time through the virtue of his japa. Why did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta "give" the name information to BV Tirtha?

Also, why only the name? What about the other 10 details or so as practiced by Sri Bhaktivinode?

Why through letter and not face-to-face?

Why did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta give this information to Bhakti Vilas Tirtha and not to other disciples including BP Puri Maharaja, BR Sridhara Maharaja (your own guru), Srila Prabhupada, etc? Does it imply that these disciples were less deserving in some way?

If Sri Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is so fortunate in this way, then why did Srila Prabhupada make several harsh statements on record against him?

When Sri Bhaktivinoda follows the traditionalist path along with siddha-pranali and astakaliya-lila smaran etc, why is it that the standards (such as innate form etc) suddenly change within one generation?

I would genuinely like to know the answers to these questions ever since you told us the story of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta and Sri Bhakti Vilas Tirtha as I am interested in the process of siddha-realisation as practised in the Gaudiya Matha, so I would appreciate the answers, thanks.

</blockquote>

In Gaudiya Math, these are not topics that people talk about openly. And what we have heard or read in Gaudiya Math, we don't necessarily have to reveal to outsiders. Don't expect me to talk about any of this here. But the fact is, the letter from Srila Sarawati Thakur to Kunja Babu exists.

Moreover, the weird spin you put in, with your statement about some persons being "less deserving in some way" is based on misconceived premises that are simply the product of your own thought processes. Srila Sridhar Maharaj said we should not try to measure everything with our "puppy brain". A dog's brain cannot understand the pure siddhanta of the Acharya of the Sri Gaudiya Math, Prabhupada Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

kailasa · April 17, 2005

Siddha rupa it is soul. Form soul, spiritual emotions.

--

You haven't been following this discussion properly. Sri Jiva Goswami, Sri Mukunda das Goswami and Sri Vishwanatha Chakravarti all say siddha-rupa mentally MIND body is. Chaitanya also say.

It is the same.

April 17, 2005

The view of Bhaktivinod, Bhaktisiddhanta et. al. that one should become first purified by vaidhi-bhakti still seems more sensible.)

Alpa-medhasa, I'm curious to know if you have any references from earlier acharyas on this point?

Bogus Rascal

muralidhar_das · April 17, 2005

Bogus Gaurasundar das wrote:

Muralidhar, what does sarupya-mukti mean?

</blockquote>

I'm not sure if it means that a person get a four hand form like Vishnu. Or whether sarupya includes those liberated souls who attain forms suitable for worship of one of the forms of the Lord such as Narasingha, Matsya, etc., as mentioned in this verse below.

Brhadbagavatmrtam 2.2.141-4

According to the specific form and nature of the Supreme Lord that they worship and meditate on as their beloved, the devotees attain a form like the Lord's. In this way they manifest many different forms and opulences. They have forms like the Lord's incarnations, as humans, sages, demigods, and philosophers, and as the Lord's incarnations as Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrsimha, Vamana, Shiva, Brahma, Indra, Sesa, Surya, Vayu, Vahni, and many other forms. They also attain four-handed forms, and still other forms, with the specific garments and features of the Lord.

</blockquote>

This is something I plan to ask my Guru about sometime.

And by the way, as I told you long ago, gaurasundara, the BRS edition of Bon Maharaj that I gave to you has errors in it. I do have the Sanskrit for Brhadbagavatmrtam but I feel no desire to give it to you. Check Gopiparanadha's traslation, which you told me you have.

kailasa · April 17, 2005

Spiritual mind is expansion Lord Aniruddha. Form soul come from relations with God, but essense soul is spiritual emotions. Yes? /images/graemlins/smile.gif No? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Pure mind is Vasudeva. Krisna be born in this pure mind or pure conciousness, His father Vasudeva.

muralidhar_das · April 17, 2005

Bogus Rascal said:

Your "further insights" just happen to be against what was taught by Gopalaguru and Dhyanacandra Goswamis as penned in their paddhatis, as well as the views of Sri Narottama, Sri Vishwanatha, etc. </blockquote>

What rubbish.

I stated that the further insight one might have is that a person can attain gopi-bhava without knowing about any "siddha-pranali". You yourself had admitted this is a reasonable conclusion. You said, "Fair enough". But now you are unable or unwilling to see the further implications that flow from this. You don't want to seriously consider the implications. They are unsettling, perhaps.

Additionally, Gopalaguru, Dhyanacandra, Narottama and his descendent Sri Vishwanatha were all initiated by siddha-mahatmas and your conclusions about how they preached "ekadasa-bhava" are out of context. In the tradition we are talking about, which arose after their lifetime, we see a tradition wherein persons who are not siddha-mahatmas are giving their students "siddha-pranali" and "ekadasa-bhava" in an imitative, ritualist tradition.

People who are not pure and who have not attained Rati are unable to give Rati or information about "siddha-deha" to their students. The simple fact is, it is all an imitation of the real spirituality taught by Gopalaguru, Dhyanacandra, Narottama and Sri Vishwanatha

Sri Rupa Goswami:

vimuktakilatar yair ya muktir api vimrgyate

ya krsnenatigopy asu bhajadbhyo ‘pi na diyate

sa bhukti-mukti-kamatva cchuddham bhaktim akurvatam

hrdaye sambhavat yesam katham bhagavati ratih

Rati, the feeling of attraction to Krishna that is sought after by souls who have sacrificed

all selfish desires, the feeling of attraction which Sri Krishna withholds in great secrecy, is

not easily conferred by him even to devotees who are engaged in spiritual practices. How

can there be an appearance of rati in the hearts of those who do not practice unalloyed

and pure bhakti because of manifold desires for elevation and salvation, or in the hearts of

those who are anxious for self-destruction by way of desiring for merging in the Absolute

Brahman? (Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.3.42-3)

</blockquote>

Only a pure devotee can give a disciple the true understanding of siddha-deha.

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