Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

muralidhar_das · April 15, 2005

My own personal opinion is that the real guru-parampara died hundreds of years ago in most of these family guru lineages. Many of these "traditions" or lineages are mere imitations of a real guru-parampara.

April 15, 2005

Muralidhara, that is a disgusting case of editing and interpretation there. You wring the worst possible interpretation of any of the things described so briefly therein and present them in a manner to suit your theory. Blech! What if someone presented BS Govinda Swami as a dotery old guy who likes to watch sports on television. Does that do him justice? Why stoop to that level?

muralidhar_das · April 15, 2005

Kailasa,

some things you are saying here should not be discussed on this thread which is about "siddha-pranali". Maybe, if you want, you can write to me personally in regard to some issues you are talking about. Write to me here: mark.anson{@}sydneyNSW.com.au

kailasa · April 15, 2005

Kailasa,

some things you are saying here should not be discussed on this thread which is about "siddha-pranali".

I am write about theme siddha pranali - siddha deha. We discuss autority who speak about siddha deha.

Maybe, if you want, you can write to me personally in regard to some issues you are talking about. Write to me here: mark.anson{@}sydneyNSW.com.au

If you want i am write.

muralidhar_das · April 15, 2005

In regard to Srila Govinda Maharaj watching television, yes he does watch it. Quite a lot. I've sat with him and watched TV several times. For a while I was staying in the room next to him. He used to wake at 2.30 am every day, chant on his beads, and then speak with the devotees who come to see him from 4.30 onwards. It was my job to watch the door until 4.30. Sometimes Srila Govinda Maharaj would watch TV but mostly the news, not sport. Then again, Srila Govinda Maharaj also attended the inaugural "Australia against the World" soccer match we played, one year. Australia lost. And sometimes I would sit with Srila Govinda Maharaj and watch SBS television, an Australian TV channel that has news in foreign languages. He would watch all the news from different countries. Srila Govinda Maharaj is very interested in China and Russia. I remember sitting for a couple of hours with him watching news from China, spoken in Chinese, and news from Russia and Ukraine, spoken in Russian. We couldn't undestand the words they said but the pictures were "telling a thousand words". Srila Sridhar Maharaj used to have the radio playing all day long, right next to where he was sitting. But TV provides more a informative coverage of things than radio. That is what I find.

By the way, Srila Govinda Maharaj received "siddha-pranali" from his father, Sri Nitaipada Dasadhikari, a Guru in the "Nityananda Vamsa". (Srila Govinda Maharaj's family name "Dasadhikari" was given to the family by Sri Nityananda Prabhu). So it is not altogether inappropriate to mention these things here on this thread.

The picture below is of Mahaprabhu and our Guru Parampara, and the Radha-Gopinath Deities that have been worshipped by Srila Govinda Maharaj's family since the time when worship was inaugurated by Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

Posted Image

So to the Guest who made hints of criticism of Srila Govinda Maharaj, I would suggest that in your tradition you are supposed to offer honour to the caste-Goswamis, and that you should therefore be careful not to criticise Srila Govinda Maharaj since he is born in the family of caste-goswamis.

this discussion just goes on and on and on....

kailasa · April 16, 2005

If some speak SBT is partial incarnation Gadadhara Pandita, then Gadadhara in mood Rukmini devi. Then GM has so many things from mood Rukmini devi.

April 16, 2005

Shiva, while I agree with many points you have brought up to date, don't you think this is starting to get a little harsh? I started this thread for the sake of fact-finding, not fault-finding. If you do not mind, I would like to restate my original questions and doubts just to keep this focused:

I don't think I was harsh. I was pretty clear in saying if the shoe fits, wear it. If you are not a confidant of Radha, but present yourself as that, then those were the people I was speaking about, people who try and act above their actual level. I make no judgements on individuals, just personality types.

1) Is there historical precedent for siddha-pranali in the Gaudiya writings? (Raga and Muralidhar gave very satisfactory responses to this question)

Raga has previously stated that only the works of the 6 Goswamis are necessary. I had quoted something from Bhaktivindoa Thakura and he becme adamant that there is a gradation of authority in the Gaudiya tradition, he wrote the following:

"...here we regard the writings of the Goswamis as the foundation. It is commonly accepted among Gaudiyas that they are the final word when it comes to our siddhanta. With due respect to him, Bhaktivinoda is not in the same league of authority with the Goswamis here.

I would not have mentioned even Baladeva [Vidyabhusana], had it not been for his commentary on Vedanta, which again is an original source text.

The foundation in the context of the Goswamis is understood as that with which other conclusions need to comply, and that from which their authority is derived. Bhaktivinoda's writings derive authority, they are not an independent authority, except perhaps for his circle of followers.

Such are the rules of the game here.

...you could throw out the rest if you wanted, there would still be plenty enough in the Goswamis' writings for you for a long time. Personally I do not understand why people spend so much time reading other works and neglect the originals. It just breeds confusion.

Anyway, that's the policy here. We don't treat everyone as equal authorities. There is a descending gradation of authority."

So since the siddha-pranali process is not found in the works of the 6 Goswamis...Madhava.. jou've got a lotta 'splanen to do.

2) Is siddha-pranali a necessity for one practicing raganuga-bhakti? (Raga also answered this question, although it appears there are some exceptional cases, generally one should have siddha-pranali)

If the Goswami's don't teach it, then what is the question of necessity, right Madhava? If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. There is absolutely no cause to state that "generally one should have siddha-pranali", if one bases his understanding of the process of raganuga bhakti on the works of the 6 goswamis.

3) What is the qualification to have siddha-pranali? (Raga's response is that it is the same as the qualification to practice raganuga - I guess that is logical).

Since there are no non manjari guru-pranali's practicing this process, then logically the sole qualification would be to find someone who claims he is a manjari, and wants to tell you that you are a manjari.

4) What is the qualification to practice raganuga bhakti (here I must admit that I am still not convinced that we have a clear answer - yes one must have the lobha, but what does that mean practically? Can a devotee with lobha eat karmi food in restaurants, live outside the holy dham, have girlfriends, etc? The view of Bhaktivinod, Bhaktisiddhanta et. al. that one should become first purified by vaidhi-bhakti still seems more sensible.)

Krishna Himself declares (Bhagavad-gita 9.30):

"Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination."*

What is raganuga bhakti? It is all about motivation. Raganuga is bhakti done without any motivation other then sincere desire to bring pleasure to Krishna. Vaidhi bhakti is bhakti done with some other motivation, and there may be some mixture of motivations. When you perform bhakti activities based on following scriptural injunctions, because you are told that those bhakti activities will elevate you above the mundane world of birth and death, because you are told that it is the goal of life, the duty of everyone to become God conscious, then that is vaidhi bhakti.

Raganuga is when bhakti activities are performed because you want to bring pleasure to Radha Krishna. When wanting to be please them is your sole motivation for engaging in bhakti activities, then that is raganuga bhakti.

From Bhakti Sandarbha:

2 Now spontaneous devotional service (raganuga bhakti) will be described. In raganuga bhakti there is great love and a strong desire to attain the Lord. This is called raga. When the eyes and other senses are attracted to the handsomeness and other transcendental qualities of the Lord, that is called raga, or passionate love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

3 There are many different kinds of raga. This is seen in the following statement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.25.38):

"My dear mother, devotees who receive such transcendental opulences are never bereft of them. Neither weapons nor the change of time can destroy such opulences. Because the devotees accept Me as their friend, their relative, their son, preceptor, benefactor, and Supreme deity, they cannot be deprived of their possession at any time."

4 The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the beloved (priya) of the dear gopis, the Supreme Brahman (atma) for the sages headed by Sri Sanaka-kumara, the son (suta) of they who are headed by the King of Vraja, the friend (sakha) of they who are headed by Sridama, the preceptor (guru) of they who are headed by Pradyumna, the brother of someone, the cousin of someone, and the father-in-law of someone. He is the friend (suhrah) of many friends headed by Sridama. He is the master (daivam istam) of many servants headed by Daruka.

Here we read that the raganuga devotee wants to be in a relationship with Krishna.

Jiva Goswami continues:

6 When one thinks of the Lord in one of these different relationships and engages in the activities of devotional service that begin with hearing about the Lord, glorifying Him, remembering Him, serving His feet, offering obeisances to Him, and surrendering everything to Him, and when one loves the Lord, but one's love is not yet natural or spontaneous, his devotional service is called ragatmika bhakti.

Bhaktivinoda Thakure writes about this in Jaiva Dharma chapter 21:

Babaji: However, before I describe raganuga-bhakti, I shall first describe the nature of ragatmika-bhakti.

Vrajanatha: Please tell what the word 'raga' means. I wish to understand that first.

Babaji: Materialists fall in love with the objects of the material senses. This love may be called 'raga'. In this way the eyes become excited when they see beauty and other attractive qualities. In this way one is attracted to the material sense objects and the mind develops 'raga' or love for them.

When that love (raga) is placed in Lord Krishna as its only object, that is called 'raga-bhakti'. Srila Rupa Gosvami explains that when love is focused on a single object of desire, that is called 'raga'. When this kind of love exists in devotional service, then the devotional service is called 'ragatmika-bhakti'.

In brief, when there is a love-filled thirst to attain Lord Krishna, that is called ragatmika-bhakti. As long as this raga has not manifested itself, one is enjoined to follow vidhi-bhakti, following the rules and regulations of scripture. Awe, fear and faith are the three aspects of vaidhi-bhakti. An intense desire to meet Lord Krishna and associate with Him in His pastimes is the main feature of ragatamika-bhakti.

Vrajanatha: Who is qualified to perform raga-bhakti?

Babaji: A person whose faith rests in the rules of the scriptures is qualified to engage in vaidhi-bhakti. A person whose faith rests in an intense desire to attain Lord Krishna is qualified to engage in ragatmika-bhakti. Manifested according to their different rasas (relationships with Lord Krishna), Lord Krishna's personal associates in the spiritual world of Vraja with strong faith engage in ragatmika-bhakti.

A person who has a strong desire to love Lord Krishna as the residents of Vraja in the spiritual world do, is qualified to engage in raganuga bhakti.

Vrajanatha: What are the qualities of this strong desire?

Babaji: One quality is that when one hears about the sweetness of the love and other emotions manifested by the residents of Vraja in the spiritual world, one yearns to go there. When a person qualified to engage in vaidhi-bhakti hears the descriptions of Lord Krishna, he calmly things about these descriptions, using his intelligence, logic, and the evidence of scripture.

However, when a person following the path of raganuga-bhakti hears these descriptions, he does not carefully consider them in terms of intelligence, logic and scripture. Instead he is overcome with the desire to love Krishna as the residents of Vraja do.

Vrajanatha: What are the activities of raganuga-bhakti?

Babaji: The devotee engaged in raganuga-bhakti yearns to become one of the residents of Vraja in the spiritual world and there serve Lord Krishna directly. He always thinks of that desire. He likes to talk with other devotees about the pastimes of his beloved Krishna. He resides in Vraja, either with his external body, or within his thoughts.

Yearning to attain the spiritual love that they possess, he becomes a follower of the people of Vraja. He always serves the Lord in two ways. Externally he performs sadhana-bhakti. Internally he thinks of his original spiritual form and in that form he serves the Lord.

Vrajanatha: What is the connection between raganuga-bhakti and the different limbs of vaidhi-bhakti?

Babaji: A person engaged in raganuga-bhakti also performs the different activities of sadhana-bhakti, such as hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord. However, within his heart he is a follower of the people of Vraja. In this way he tastes the nectar of always serving the Lord. At the same time he serves in this way within his heart, he engages in the activities of sadhana-bhakti with his external body.

Vrajanatha: How is raganuga-bhakti glorious?

Babaji: By engaging in raganuga-bhakti one quickly attains what takes a long time to attain by performing sadhana-bhakti. Vaidhi-bhakti is weak, but raganuga-bhakti is both independent and very powerful. By following in the footsteps of the people of Vraja, one attains raga.

That raga naturally pushes one to engage in the devotional activities of hearing, chanting and remembering the Lord's glories, serving His lotus feet, bowing down before Him, and surrendering everything to Him. When the heart is free of the three material modes, one naturally desires to follow in the footsteps of the people of Vraja. Therefore the attraction to raganuga-bhakti, or the intense desire to attain raganuga-bhakti is the inspiration that pushes one to true spiritual life. As there are many different kinds of ragatmika-bhakti, so there are also many different kinds of raganuga-bhakti.

Jiva Goswami continues from Bhakti Sandarbha:

7 When one has already attained passionate love for the Lord, love like a great Ganges river of devotion in which the waves are the various activities of devotional service, and when the activities of devotional service are no longer a means of attaining something that is not already attained, his devotion is called raganuga bhakti.

8 From the passionate love (raga) thus described, attraction (ruci) is born. Attraction (ruci) is not manifested of its own accord. It comes from love (raga). When the faint reflection of the light shining from the nectar moon of this passionate love (raga) shines in the crystal jewel of the heart, then attraction (ruci) is born by the action of passionate love (raga). When attraction (ruci) thus follows (anuga) passionate love (raga), the condition is known as raganuga bhakti.

9 Some call this stage of devotional service avihita bhakti, for it is impelled by attraction alone and is not bound to follow rules and regulations. This explanation should not be accepted. It is not possible for a person completely aloof from all rules and regulations to engage in devotional service.

10 In Srimad Bhagavatam (2.1.7) it is said:

"O King Pariksit, mainly the topmost transcendentalists, who are above the regulative principles and restrictions , take pleasure in describing the glories of the Lord."

11 Vaidhi bhakti. which is dependent on following rules and regulations, is weak, but raganuga bhakti, which is independent of rules and regulations, is powerful. By engaging in raganuga bhakti one comes to dislike anything that has no relation to devotional service. This is explained in the Third Canto, where, describing attraction to the descriptions of the Lord, Sri Vidura says (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.5.13):

12 "For one who is anxious to engage constantly in hearing such topics, krsna-katha gradually increases his indifference towards all other things. Such constant remembrance of the lotus feet of Lord Krsna by the devotee who has achieved transcendental bliss vanquishes all his miseries without delay."

13 Ruci means when the mind is in the grip of hearing the previous described topics of the Lord. Because raganuga bhakti is not dependent on rules and regulations, the servitorship (dasya) and friendship (sakhya) for the Lord manifested in raganuga bhakti are different from the servitorship and friendship for the Lord manifested in vaidhi bhakti.

14 In Srimad Bhagavatam (7.5.24) it is said:

"These nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Krsna through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge."

15 Great importance is not given to the stages of development manifested in raganuga bhakti. However, importance is given to the stages of development in ragatmika bhakti. In ragatmika bhakti comes the manifestation of ruci. This is described in the following words (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.8.35):

16 "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is absolutely the most dear one for all living beings because He is everyone's well-wisher and Lord. He is the Supreme Soul situated in everyone's heart. Therefore I will now pay the price of complete surrender, and thus purchasing the Lord I will enjoy with Him just like Laksmi-devi."

17 Thinking of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as her friend and well-wisher, in this verse Pingala desires to attain Him as her husband. That is the meaning here.

18 In the Chandoga-parisista it is said:

"Following a vow of chanting caru-mantras, a girl attains oneness with her desired husband."

The "oneness" mentioned here is artificial, not real. As a girl may thus purchase an ordinary husband, in the same way, by full self-surrender, one may purchase the Supreme Personality of Godhead as one's husband and enjoy with Him as Laksmi-devi enjoys with her handsome husband. In this way is shown Pingala's attraction (ruci) to the Lord.

Anuccheda 311

1 The activities of raganuga bhakti are described in these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.8.40):

"I am now completely satisfied and I have full faith in the Lord's mercy. Therefore I will maintain myself with whatever comes of its own accord. I shall enjoy life with only the Lord, because He is the real source of love and happiness."

2 This verse means, "In my mind (atmana) I will enjoy (viharami) with Him (amuna), my affection lover". The mind is mentioned here because the mind is most important in the path of attraction (ruci) to the Lord. Because she did not have the spiritual form of a beloved of the Lord, Pingala engaged her mind in meditating on the Lord in this way. Deity worship tends to remove the boldness (that is a natural part of amorous pastimes). Therefore Deity worship naturally leads to vatsalya rasa, where one is a parent or other guardian of the Lord. This verse was spoken by Sri Pingala.

Anuccheda 312

1 In this way raganuga bhakti where the devotee has the idea of becoming one of the Lord's beloveds is shown. An example of this is seen in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana, in the story of the girl Kamakala. Examples of ruci-bhakti where the devotee has the idea of becoming a servant of the Lord or associating with Him in the other rasa are seen in other places in the scriptures. An example of a servant is given in the following words of Sri Prahlada (Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.24):

"My dear Lord, now I have complete experience concerning the worldly opulence, mystic power, longevity and other material pleasures enjoyed by all living entities, from Lord Brahma down to the ant. As powerful time, You destroy them all. Therefore, because of my experience, I do not wish to possess them. My dear Lord, I request You to place me in touch with Your pure devotee and let me serve him as a sincere servant."

2 In Sri Narada-pancaratra a devotee says:

"O master of the universes, when, with a graceful and deep voice will you order me, "Take a camara in your hand and fan Me'."

3-4 In the Skanda Purana and in the Sanat-kumara-samhita, in the story of King Prabhakara, it is said:

"Although he was sonless, the king did not desire a son. He considered that his condition was already ordained by his part karma. Instead, he wished that Lord Vasudeva, the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is glorified by all the Upanisads and who is the Supersoul in everyone's heart, would become his son. He wanted to crown the Supreme Lord as the next king and give the kingdom to Him. He did not wish for a son that would not be the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself."

5 Finally the Supreme Personality of Godhead appeared before the king and said, "I will become your son."

6 In the Narayana-vyuha-stava it is said:

"I offer my respectful obeisances to they who always meditate on Lord Hari as their husband, son, friend, brother, father, or mother."

7 In this verse the words husband, son, friend, and brother refer to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the object of meditation and the words father and mother refer to the devotee who is meditating on the Lord. The affix "vat" (like) here means that the devotee does not directly become the Lord's mother, but rather becomes a follower of the Lord's mother. The same is true for the Lord's father.

To think otherwise is to accept the impersonalists' error of ahangrahopasana (thinking oneself the object of worship). Here the word "dhyayant" (they meditate) confirms the previous explanation of the importance of the mind in raganuga bhakti. The word "api" (even) here means "How exalted are they who serve the Lord in perfect raganuga bhakti?"

8 Here someone may object: The Purva-mimamsa affirms, "Religion means following the orders of scripture", and the Brahma-yamala also affirms, "Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorised Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, Puranas, Narada-pancaratra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."* Therefore to ignore the orders of the Sruti-sastra and other scriptures is a great fault.

9 The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself affirms:

"The Sruti and Smrti sastras are My commands. Therefore one who disobeys the scripture disobeys Me. Such a person hates Me. He may claim to be devoted to Me, but in truth he is not."

10 This verse shows that disobedience to the duties and prohibitions of the Sruti-sastra and other scriptures makes one ineligible to be a Vaisnava. How, then can one attain perfection by following a kind of devotional service (ragatmika bhakti) that ignores these rules and regulations?

If this is said, then the following reply is given: Spiritual potency is present in the Lord's holy name, qualities and all else that is in relation to Him. It is not present in the rules of ordinary religion. In many places the scriptures affirm that one attains the result of devotional service without reference to impersonal speculation or any other method.

The rules of the scriptures do not have power to act by themselves, without reference of a person. They have power because they have come from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore they who, having no knowledge of attraction (ruci) to the Lord, raise these objections, have no real understanding of the activities of ragatmika bhakti.

This last verse is telling us that the rules and regulations of sastra are not valuable in and of themselves, they exist as necessary or unnecssary solely on the basis of the desire of the person who created them i.e Bhagavan. This is the essence of raganuga bhakti which differentiates it from other paths. The rules and regulations of sastra are there for the purpose of elevating people, when you have somehow risen to the final stage, then those rules are no longer relevant as they were before, their purpose was to get you to the final stage. The only rules for the raganuga bhakta are acceptance of anything and everything favorable for pleasing Krishna, and rejection of anything and everything unfavorable.

Jiva Goswami continues:

11 This is shown by the following statement of Srimad Bhagavatam (11.2.35):

"O King, one who accepts this process of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead will never blunder on his path in this world. Even while running with eyes closed, he will never trip or fall."

12 A person who is somehow or other engaged in the attempt to fix his mind in thinking of the Lord is a person who actually follows the rules of devotional service. A person who does not have attraction for the Lord and does not yearn to always engage in devotional service does not actually follow the rules of devotional service.

Such a person may perish from the attack of impersonalism or from other calamities. The rules of devotional service are not established for their own sake. They are meant to make one attracted to the Lord, to make the mind fall in love (ragatmika) with the charming Supreme Personality of Godhead.

13 The Supreme Personality of Godhead declares (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.33):

"My devotees may or may not know exactly what I am, who I am and how I exist, but if they worship Me with unalloyed love, then I consider them to be the best of devotees."

This means that even if one acts with the wrong motive, or even out of malice, and even if one is merely mimicking the actions of devotional service, if one somehow or other engages in ragatmika bhakti, he will attain the result obtained by engaging in ragatmika bhakti. This is described in the scriptures.

14 Simply by mimicking the activities of the Lord's nurse or mother, Putana attained the perfection of ragatmika bhakti. This is described in the following words of Srimad Bhagavatam (10.14.35) where Brahma tells Lord Krsna:

"My mind becomes bewildered just trying to think of what reward other than You could be found anywhere. You are the embodiment of all benedictions, which You bestow upon these residents of the cowherd community of Vrndavana. You have already arranged to give Yourself to Putana and her family members in exchange for her disguising herself as a devotee. So what is left for You to give these devotees of Vrndavana, whose homes, wealth, friends, dear relations, bodies, children and very lives and hearts are all dedicated only to You?"

If this was true for Putana, then what may be said of the devotees who are attracted (ruci) to the Lord and always sincerely engaged in the activities of devotional service? In Srimad Bhagavatam (10.6.35-36) it is also said:

15-16 "Putana was always hankering for the blood of human children, and with that desire she came to kill Krsna. But because she offered her breast to the Lord, she attained the greatest achievement. What then is to be said of those who had natural devotion and affection for Krsna as mothers and who offered Him their breasts to suck or offered something very dear, as a mother offers something to a child?"

17 The Lord Himself declares (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.20.36):

"Material piety and sin, which arise from the good and evil of this world, cannot exist within My unalloyed devotees, who, being free from material hankering, maintain steady spiritual consciousness in all circumstances. Indeed, such devotees have achieved Me, the Supreme Lord, who am beyond anything that can be conceived by material intelligence."

18 The state of being an unalloyed (ekanti) devotee of the Lord is attained by having faith in devotional service. When one is attracted (ruci) to the Lord, one naturally respects the rules and regulations described in the scriptures. Attraction to the Lord is very rare. If a person has no respect for the rules and regulations of the scriptures and thinks himself an unalloyed devotee, he is merely a proud hypocrite. This is confirmed by the following words of the Brahma-yamala:

"Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorised Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, Puranas, Narada-pancaratra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."

Therefore the criticism that they do not honour the rules of scripture cannot be thrown at they who are genuinely attracted (ruci) to the Lord. This is also seen in Srimad Bhagavatam 10.6.35-36 (quoted in texts 15 and 16 of this anuccheda).

19 In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda it is said:

"They who have no love or attraction for the Supreme Personality of Godhead and act as they like, ignoring the instructions of the Vedas, are known as offenders and atheists."

Here the word "priti" means "attraction".

20 One who deliberately dishonours the instructions of scripture is to be criticised, but one who is merely ignorant of those instructions is not to be criticised. This is seen in the following words of Srimad Bhagavatam (11.2.35):

"O King, one who accepts this process of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, will never blunder on his path in this world. Even while running with eyes closed, he will never trip or fall."

21 In the Gautamiya Tantra it is said:

"For they who are always fallen in love with the lotus feet of Lord Krsna there is no japa, no Deity worship, no meditation, and no rules."

22 When attraction (ruci) is not yet manifested even the best raganuga bhakti is considered to be mixed with vaidhi bhakti. Even a devotee who has attraction (ruci) for the Lord may, in order to benefit the people of the world, engage in raganuga bhakti mixed with vaidhi bhakti. Therefore, in some situations it is appropriate to practice raganuga bhakti mixed with vaidhi bhakti.

23 Some devotees chant the eighteen-syllable mantra and meditate on Lord Krsna surrounded by all His associates attracted by the music of His flute at the time for milking the cows. Other devotees think in this way: "I chant this mantra that my spiritual master has given me so that I may attain my desire and become one of the people of Vraja. Then I will directly serve Lord Krsna, the son of Vraja's king."

24 Now will be discussed these words spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead (and previously quoted in text 9):

"The Sruti and Smrti sastras are My commands. Therefore one who disobeys the scripture disobeys Me. Such a person hates Me. He may claim to be devoted to Me, but in truth he is not."

Disobedience of the commands of scripture is of two kinds: 1. disobeying the dharma-sastras, and 2. disobeying the bhakti-sastras.

25 A person who has faith in devotional service does not fall down from his position as a Vaisnava if because of wickedness, or another reason, or for no reason at all, he does not perform the duties described in the dharma-sastras. This is described in the following words of Srimad Bhagavatam (11.5.41):

"One who has given up all material duties and taken full shelter at the lotus feet of Mukunda, who gives shelter to all, is not indebted to the demigods, great sages, ordinary living beings, relatives, friends, mankind, or even one's forefathers who have passed away."

26 The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself declares (Bhagavad-gita 9.30):

"Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination."

27 They who are attracted to the Lord in this way do not desire the happiness of liberation from the world of birth and death, what to speak of the horrible happiness created by sinful deeds. They do not commit sins, if somehow by mistake or by accident they commit a sin, that sin is destroyed in a single moment.

28 Also, in Srimad Bhagavatam (11.5.42) it is said:

"One who has given up everything and taken full shelter at the lotus feet of Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is very dear to Krsna. If he is involved in some sinful activity by accident, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is seated within everyone's heart, removes his sins without difficulty."

29 The duties and prohibitions described in the Vaisnava-sastras have the pleasure of Lord Visnu as their only goal. Thus a person who is attracted (ruci) to the Lord and who loves (raga) the Lord will perform certain activities and refrain from other activities. This is because such a person has the pleasure of the Lord as the only goal of his life.

30 A person following the path of ragatmika bhakti does not consider what should be done and what should not be done from the point of view of ordinary considerations. He accepts only activities that are favourable for devotional service.

31 Thus a devotee who is attracted (ruci) to the Lord and who follows the path of raganuga bhakti will follow the scriptures' description of how to engage in devotional service. However, even the residents of Gokula, the raganuga-bhaktas who were personal associates of the Lord, performed Vaisnava duties and even ordinary worldly duties to bring auspiciousness to Krsna and protect Him from troubles and obstacles.

32 The Supreme Personality of Godhead declares (in Brahma-yamala, also quoted in texts 9 and 24 of this anuccheda):

"The Sruti and Smrti sastras are My commands. Therefore one who disobeys the scripture disobeys Me. Such a person hates Me. He may claim to be devoted to Me, but in truth he is not."

These words do not apply to the devotees engaged in raganuga bhakti, for such devotees are already on the right path in spiritual life. Rather, this verse is addressed to they who follow the wrong paths, the paths of heretics and atheists like Buddha, Rsabhadeva, Dattatreya and others.

33 The scriptures declare:

"A heretic opposed to the religion of the Vedas may worship his own deity. However, he will go to hell until the time when the universe is destroyed by floods."

34 Even though many Vedic rules are not followed in it, raganuga bhakti is not outside the path of the Vedas. Actually raganuga bhakti is the perfection of the religion described in the Vedas and the scriptures that explain the Vedas. This is so because raganuga bhakti makes one attracted (ruci) to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Back to the Q and A

5) If one must practice raganuga bhakti but is not destined for manjari-svarupa, then where does he go?

If you are on the level of raganuga, then you have no worries. Krishna will reveal to you what you need to know one way or another. From others you will learn, or directly from Krishna. Is it difficult for Krishna to instruct you? No, Krishna is always with you. If you are qualified, Krishna will instruct, easy peasy lemon squeezy.

6) If one does not practice siddha-pranali, and/or does not practice raganuga bhakti, is he automatically on the very fact not a Gaudiya Vaishnava? (So far, I am not convinced that these criticisms of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati are fair or logical.)

Of course not. Gaudiya siddhanta teaches both vaidhi and raganuga bhakti.

Also, one guest mentioned that two GM devotees did have a siddha-pranali. Are you suggesting that it cannot be so? If so, why? I am not aware of either Bhaktisiddhanta or Bhaktivedanta disputing siddha-pranali (though I recall that Bhaktivedanta criticized a mechanical "so-called siddha-pranali" in Nectar of Devotion - obviously he too believes it is sacred and intended for people with certain qualification).

If anyone wants to believe that there are some people in the gaudiya math who are as described, go ahead. I do not accept internet gossip as qualification for acceptance of someone being an uttama adhikari or having real experience of their actual eternal bhava and siddha rupa. If I preach to a neophyte bhakta or madhyama bhakta and convince him that I am a manjari, or that he or she is a specific manjari, that doesn't mean it is true.

The telling of people who have not become free from the influence of the illusory energy, of their eternal siddha form, seems to be something that is not very authorized (to quote A.C Bhaktivedanta). The moment you are qualified Krishna will reveal to you your bhava, why would He wait? Is He dependent on someone else? If you really are ready to enter into your siddha relationship with Krishna, then it is axiomatic that Krishna will not waste yours and His time and neglect to deal with you directly.

Your eternal siddha form will be something which you will be naturally attracted to. By naturally is meant by the desire of Krishna. Ragnanuga and ragatmika devotees are people who do not want to serve Krishna for any other reason then to please Krishna. Therefore they do not seek a specific bhava independent of what Krishna wants from them.

Krishna enjoys a variety of relationships. A person who has true feelings of love for Krishna will not want to impose a relationship on Krishna, he or she will want to know what Krishna desires from them. It is this type of lobha, this yearning to give love in the way that will please the beloved, this is real raganuga, this is what Krishna will find irresistable.

If you want to relate with someone in a relationship without asking for their inout as to what they find acceptable from you, then that is not love. That is desire for exploitation of the person for your own selfish reasons.

Real raganuga is about saranagati, the giving of yourself to Krishna, surrendering everything, including how or what type of relationship you want. That is prema, unalloyed love, love untinged by any other element. The desire to please another with no demands put on that person, not even the demand of having that person accept your love in the way you would like to give it.

Bhaktivinoda mentions this in Jaiva Dharma chapter 21

Babaji: In the path of raga-bhakti lusty desires and familial relationships are both very important. Thus raga-bhakti is of two kinds: 1. lusty desires (kama) and 2. familial relationships (sambandha).

Vrajanatha: What is the nature of devotional service with lusty desires?

Babaji: The word 'lust' means 'the thirst to enjoy'. When it is manifested in ragatmika-bhakti, that thirst to enjoy becomes causeless love for Lord Krishna. Thus it becomes the thirst to enjoy the association of Lord Krishna. In this situation the devotee acts only to please Lord Krishna. The devotee does not act for his own happiness. The devotee accepts his own happiness only if it leads to Krishna's happiness.

kailasa · April 16, 2005

SBT writes - the hell does not exist. Obviously that it is the part sermon SBT for neophytes and materialists. (I look now references for stoneheart)

Part cermon SBT for sahajiyas. Then SBST do not accept it in some degree.

SBT start preach. It is naturally in starting give simple things. He is begin. Srila Prabhupada write and theach end -supreme mood, mood Lord Caitanya.

muralidhar_das · April 16, 2005

In reply to:

4) What is the qualification to practice raganuga bhakti (here I must admit that I am still not convinced that we have a clear answer - yes one must have the lobha, but what does that mean practically? Can a devotee with lobha eat karmi food in restaurants, live outside the holy dham, have girlfriends, etc? The view of Bhaktivinod, Bhaktisiddhanta et. al. that one should become first purified by vaidhi-bhakti still seems more sensible.)

</blockquote>

The actual qualification is given in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291 where Srila Rupa Goswami says:

tatra adhikari:

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja"

- they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti.

</blockquote>

Also, there is this to consider too:

vimuktakilatar yair ya muktir api vimrgyate

ya krsnenatigopy asu bhajadbhyo ‘pi na diyate

sa bhukti-mukti-kamatva cchuddham bhaktim akurvatam

hrdaye sambhavat yesam katham bhagavati ratih

Rati, the feeling of attraction to Krishna that is sought after by souls who have sacrificed

all selfish desires, the feeling of attraction which Sri Krishna withholds in great secrecy, is

not easily conferred by him even to devotees who are engaged in spiritual practices. How

can there be an appearance of rati in the hearts of those who do not practice unalloyed

and pure bhakti because of manifold desires for elevation and salvation, or in the hearts of

those who are anxious for self-destruction by way of desiring for merging in the Absolute

Brahman? (Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.3.42-3)

</blockquote>

There has been quite a lot of talk about "lobha" but in fact Rati is what the soul really needs. And in order to get Rati you must become pure.

muralidhar_das · April 16, 2005

I find I've been spending way too much time here lately. So if anyone has any specific issues they want to raise with me, could you most kindly raise them with me today. Otherwise I will leave the discussion of this topic to you devotees.

kailasa · April 16, 2005

Prabhupada: He sent his first book...

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...in 1896. Bhaktivinoda Thakura was the first origin of this movement. But he simply thought of it. And he was expecting some others that willing to take up the work. Well, somebody says that I am the same man. And I was born in 1896. So he wanted to combine the whole civilized nations under this Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult, Hare Krsna movement. I think I have given this hint in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

kailasa · April 16, 2005

Paramahamsa: Practically speaking, Srila Prabhupada, you are giving us the essence of all the previous acaryas' books in your books.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

raga · April 16, 2005

I've said my share on this for now. If someone wants to follow up on some things I've mentioned, you know how to find me. I find this thread heading to a too scattered and distasteful direction to merit addressing any more points, lest they be raped by some of our gracious audience.

April 16, 2005

Nice quote, that is given above. [Referring to CC Madhya 22.156-157]

This is suitable advice for people who have a fixed and pure understanding of the form of their siddha-deha. But if you still have anarthas and you like to enjoy lady-love, should you engage in this type of meditation when you are enjoying lady-love? Or will you do this while watching TV?

This is typical of the response that I expected, and shows that the CC quote has not been read properly. Let me spell it out: bahya, antara - iha dui to sadhana. The words of Mahaprabhu Himself state quite clearly that sadhana (done in the sadhaka body) is of two types, external and internal. Externally the sadhaka will engage in hearing and chanting etc, and internally the sadhaka will think of Krsna in his siddha-deha, contemplating in his mind. You might actually try checking out that section of CC to see that verse in context. You will find that while Mahaprabhu is discussing different types of spontaneous devotion, this verse gives a practical suggestion. Now, the next question would be that if you are supposed to be doing sadhana in the sadhaka-deha and you have no clue about your siddha-deha, pray tell, how are you supposed to act according to Mahaprabhu's words above? Remember, external and internal.

Whoops! Unless you are seriously suggesting that watching TV is an anartha in light of what is discussed about BS Govinda Maharaja later in this thread, you might try asking him why he watches TV if you consider that an anartha.

For people who are not free from anarthas, this type of sadhana is not appropriate, according to Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati.

Right. So how are you going to fulfil the internal aspect of the sadhana as spoken by Mahaprabhu? And as for becoming free from anarthas, have you never considered SB 10.33.39? Really Muralidhar, you should know better.

Guest, as you see in these verses, not all residents of Vaikuntha will have four hand forms.

Thank you for providing the quote. It defeats your own arguments. The quote according to your translation clearly shows that devotees who meditate on their beloved Lord in whichever form they prefer will attain forms of the same like along the likes of sarupya-mukti. This contradicts what you were saying earlier about the "siddha-deha" being inherent etc. Your quote is clearly along the lines of Sri Narottam das Thakur's sadhana bhavibo yei siddha-deha pabe tai. Sorry.

April 16, 2005

Obviously I was referring to the Hare-Krsna mantra. Maybe I should have been more specific, sorry about that.

April 16, 2005

I believe that there are sincere devotees in GM and non GM lines, and similary there are many rouges in both groups. No one can force bhakti to sit in their hearts.

I chose to follow Srila Bhaktisiddanta Prabhupada, as I believe his teachings about Bhakti are correct for me.

Let's remember that the Holy Name was predicted to be chanted in every town and village on this planet. Which line has made this a reality? I say this to counter the egoistic view, from the pranalikas, that Srila Bhaktisiddhnata line is bogus. That what this argument is really about, isn't it?

No it isn't. But it can be if you wish to make it so. I believe this discussion is about the Original Guest (alpa medhasa): "I am doing some personal research and would like some information on "siddha-pranali." What is it, and what are its origins? In what texts of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas is it first mentioned? I would be very happy for explicit references, i.e. book title, chapter, and verse number if possible."

I also believe that there are sincere devotees in ISKCON and Gaudiya Matha. I do not follow the idea that just because I do not agree on certain points of their doctrine they should automatically be a subject of abuse. Also it doesn't follow that just because this line has spread the Holy Name to every town and vilage doesn't mean that they are right. That itself is a form of egoism. You will find a similar phenomenon in other traditions too.

kailasa · April 16, 2005

"Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya. "

Without true guru person do not understand own spiritual body. Jumps do not hope.

April 16, 2005

And while we are on the topic of unanswered questions, what about these:

When the sages saw Ram and desired to be born as ladies to enjoy his company in madhura-rasa, did any of them have any training in a siddha-pranali gurukula?

It seems that either you are ignoring posts or you haven't read them properly, this question was already answered. Using this stand-alone example of the Dandakaranya Rishis as "proof" that siddha-pranali etc is unnecessary is an extremely dishonest reading of Rupa Gosvami's text. Allow me to explain why. I trust that Muralidhar is using the same translation of BRS that I have, which is the translation by Bhakti Hridaya Vana Maharaja (aka Bon Maharaja, who Srila Prabhupada incidentally referred to as a guru-aparadhi etc), so to make him happy I will use this edition:

Rupa Goswami is discussing Kamanuga-bhakti, which is bhakti following in the wake of kamatmika-devotees, specifically the vraja-gopis who possess an amorous love for Krsna. Text 300 is as follows: "Those who aspire after and long for the different sentiments of the Braja-Devis after listening about the Sports of Lord Krsna or after seeing the beauty of the Sri Murti or Portrait of the Lord, are alone eligible for either of the two categories or forms of Kamanuga aspect of Raganuga Bhakti. Even male persons can attain such Bhavas-so it is heard in the Panda Puranam."

I will take this as a misprint as the reference is obviously to Padma Purana. Note the section highlighted in bold. Next (301-302), Rupa Goswami quotes the shloka from PP about how the Dandakaranya Rishis were born as (sadhana-siddha) gopis in Krsna-lila because they desired to enjoy with Rama upon seeing His great beauty. This is typical of Rupa Goswami's style in the early section of BRS; he makes a statement and then provides a supporting scriptural statement. In this case, Rupa Goswami is making the point that it is possible for male sadhakas to attain female forms and bhavas, just as how the "male" Rishis attained "female" forms of gopis, as this may be a question that is asked by the curious. Rupa Goswami further strengthens his point by quoting from the Maha-Kurma Purana: "The great sons of Agni received femalehood by dint of their hard penances and attained Lord Vasudeva, who is the Absolute, the Unborn and the cause of the Universe, as their Spouse, i.e. Husband."

After this, the Goswami proceeds to discuss Sambhandanuga-bhakti. I'll expect that it is clear now that Rupa Goswami is just using the example of the Dandakaranya Rishis to show how it is possible for males to attain the bhava and form of a female. To cherry-pick this verse as an example of how "siddha-pranali" is not necessary especially when the Goswami has specifically stated elsewhere in BRS that service in the sadhaka-deha and siddha-deha is necessary (seva sadhaka-rupena siddha-rup catra hi, etc), is something that I find to be an incredibly intellectually dishonest reading of the text.

While we're on the subject, Murlidhar das has brought up this same point several times here and on other forums and has received replies like the one above almost every time. I trust that this is now resolved once and for all. But as is human nature, I guess it won't be.

kailasa · April 16, 2005

Also it doesn't follow that just because this line has spread the Holy Name to every town and vilage doesn't mean that they are right. That itself is a form of egoism.

No real ISKCON do not follow blind sraddha, we give for you arguments.

April 16, 2005

I found Murali's response helpful because he gave me a clear and concise answer to my exact question (one of them, anyway).

I am glad that you think so. I was under the impression that you were interested in acquiring clear and verifiable evidences whereas the interpretation of the Jayakrsna das Babaji story is not agreed with. But whatever floats your boat.

My interest was in determining where in the writings of the Gosvamis it is found. Apparently, it is not in the writings of the six-Gosvamis, but rather a concept developed later on based on some of the Gosvami's ideas.

You could say that the roots of the concept are to be found in the Goswamis' writings. The important thing to remember is that the giving of siddha-pranali etc is ultimately a very confidential affair between the guru and the disciple. Let's just say that you got initiated right now with your siddha-deha etc, would you speak about it to all and sundry. You might, but that would be in violation of several of Sri Narottam das' teachings where he repeatedly urges sadhakas to keep the information and bhajan details a secret. This is why you will find only hints of it in the Goswamis' and other acaryas' writings; it is ultimately not something to speak about everywhere. The information found in the paddhatis are manuals for the dhyana that is part of the sadhana, that is why you will find "more" information there. Have you read Dhyanacandra Goswami's paddhati?

So I should only get the opinion on this from people whose opinion I might doubt in the first place? That hardly seems sensible. I think the more sensible thing would be to look for the facts in the scriptures and the writings of the pUrvAchAryas, and based on this follow the guru who is actually following them.

I was referring to devotees who actually practice the process, not to devotees who do not practice it. Of course scriptural evidence is required; you have a greater chance of finding such among people who practice it instead of those who don't, as has taken place with these sorts of discussions in the past.

Where did they say this? All I saw them say was that one should not be forced into a particular bhAva-siddhi. They gave ample evidence for that position.

I was referring to their statements made on past occasions when these sort of things were discussed before.

Perhaps I do not know them as well as you, but I think that whatever hard feelings you have for them, you should not misrepresent them for the sake of argument.

Personally I have no problem with them. I was under the impression that your original questions referred to acquiring scriptural quotations about siddha-pranali in the works of the acaryas. Having to hear statements like "Sri Bhaktisiddhanta said this is unnecessary" etc do not help the discussion in my opinion, as those sorts of arguments are completely off-topic. And as I mentioned previously, people who have no interest in these topics and do not practice them according to the order of their gurus really shouldn't be talking about it at all. It is actually up to you if you wish to listen to their viewpoints, I humbly think that you should just bear in mind that they have brought up these same viewpoints dozens of times before and have been refuted every time. These are just my opinions anyway, you may think differently. Other than these, I have no problems with them whatsoever and, like you, I would prefer keeping the topic on-track regarding the questions you have raised.

Thank you for your approval of my alleged ISKCON background. I feel honored to be speaking with you, sir.

There is no need for this sort of sarcasm. I was just acknowledging your background with understandingwhich is obvious from the way you speak, and it is something I will have to take into consideration when replying to your points since I do not know how much you know about this subject, and the conclusions of any previous research you may have made before asking questions here. If you're going to be sarcastic about it then maybe I shouldn't bother.

It's easy to make vague and sweeping references. The specific references provided by Murali and Raga were more helpful than this. However, as I said before (twice already), I am not disputing the authenticity of the "siddha-pranali" concept. Rather, I am questioning the view that those who do not have "siddha-pranali" are automatically not real Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

Concerning sweeping references, as I said these topics have been discussed before. You might like to consider using the search engine to find some of these past threads for full references. I understand that you have read Raga's PDF file; do you agree with those references or have any other issues concerning them? Considering the number of references provided that show how a siddha-deha is necessary for meditation in order to enter the lila of Radha-Krsna, how is it possible for a Gaudiya Vaishnava not to have this?

From my readings of the biographies, I did not see any specific reference to Mahaprabhu either giving or receiving "siddha-pranali." In fact, I do not recall him even giving an official initiation for Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis, even though both of them are considered his disciples. Unless you can correct me, I would therefore have to disagree with your statement that "all Vaishanvas from the time of Mahaprabhu onwards have followed this...." even assuming you are referring to Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

I didn't say that Mahaprabhu initiated anyone or gave siddha-pranali. I said that this practice has been followed since the time of Chaitanya. In other words, the traditionalist GVs that you are likely to find would most likely belong to a parampara that descends directly from Nityananda, Advaita, Gadadhara, etc, with the diksa-mantras they chant etc. originate from those associates. This is what I meant when I say that these practices have been followed since the time of Mahaprabhu. This is as far as my understanding goes, obviously I wasn't around at the time to verify all of this.

As of this writing, Muralidhar did post an example of Bhaktisiddhanta revealing siddha-deha for one disciple. What about this do you find to be "not... in the same way?"

I brought up those points before. How did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta know his identity? How would you know if he is sure of it, if he didn't get it from his guru? How did he know the identity of Bhakti Vilas Tirtha? Was it revealed to Sri Bhaktisiddhanta from "within" or so?

By the way, this point as brought up by Murlidhar is self-defeating. He argues that Sri Bhaktisiddhanta preached that realization of siddha-form name and so on will automatically occur as a result of Hare-Krsna mantra-japa. If this is so, then by all rights Bhakti Vilas Tirtha would have known his own details in due course of time through the virtue of his japa. Why did Sri Bhaktisiddhanta "give" the name information to BV Tirtha? Also, why only the name? What about the other 10 details or so?

I guess that if your understanding develops, you will gradually come to know how all of this is very important, especially the part about 10 more details. I hope you will come to that understanding.

As far as it being unnecessary, there was already the quote from VCT's RVC. He mentioned three possibilities, one of which was caitya guru, from which one could get this sacred knowledge. What more can I say? I think VCT knew what he was talking about.

And as I said, a proper study of RVC should be made in order to put that verse in context with the rest of the text. If you do so, the interpretation that you currently hold will be shown invalid.

Nor am I saying they are "wrong," because again AFAIK, none of them ever said "you must have siddha-pranali or you are not a follower of Sri Caitanya."

What makes a follower of Sri Caitanya? If you are uninitiated but like to read scriptures relating to Gaudiya tradition, chant, eat prasada etc., are you not a follower? So in the same way, it is "possible" to be a follower of Caitanya before taking initiation, because siddha-pranali is only given to the disciple at the time of diksa or afterwards. It is not handed out willy-nilly to all and sundry. So yes, followers of Caitanya can be there but ultimately taking diksa is necessary and siddha-pranali comes along with that.

Also, the idea that because many or most Gaudiyas have historically done this, therefore all Gaudiyas must continue to do this, is certainly begging the question. This logic can be used in any number of unsettling ways:

In the absence of specific statement of "follower of Caitanya Mahaprabhu = always has siddha pranali," I do not see how one can assume this must always be the case forever for all Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

With respects, the examples you have listed are fair but are ultimately unimportant. Since you are in knowledge of various references pertaining to the importance and necessity of sadhana being performed in a siddha-body, it should be understood that such an important part of sadhana is not subject to compromise in the same way as travelling overseas and preaching in English etc can be.

Especially when you consider that not all Caitanyaites are going to be raganuga bhaktas, and not all raganuga bhaktas are destined for manjari bhAva. So what do non-manjari bhAva entities do? And what do those who are not practicing raganuga do? Is there no place for them in Sri Caitanya's teachings?

Dear Alpa, do you know what raganuga-bhakti is? It was the opinion of HH Gour Govinda Swami that Caitanya came to give raga-bhakti, and this is made obvious in the early chapters of CC. It is more or less impossible for a follower of Caitanya not to engage in raganuga-bhakti because this is something that is part of the tradition that Caitanya came to give. I think that the answers to your questions about siddha-pranali can only be understood fully when you have a working knowledge of what raganuga-bhakti is all about. So I would humbly suggest that you read the URL given in a footnote in Raga's PDF in order to understand what raganuga-bhakti is about before siddha-pranali. As I mentioned elsewhere, persons who are attracted to a different bhava (like sakhya-bhava) would find greater satisfaction finding a guru who also relishes that bhava and is capable of providing guidance (siddha-pranali etc) in that mode, just like Hrdaya Caitanya was a guru in a sakhya-rasa parampara. They are harder to find though, given that the majority of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are attracted to the manjari-mood that Caitanya came to bestow as a special gift.

Please understand what I have written properly. I did not say that one should not strive to have a spiritual body, or that meditation on a spiritual identity is not necessary for raganuga sadhana. What I questioned was the premise that one must have this type of sadhana/initiation or else he is not a Gaudiya vaishnava. I have also questioned the idea that one must always have a siddha-pranali in order to get this knowledge of siddha-deha.

The first point has already been answered above. Second point, it is mentioned in the paddhatis that meditation on the lineage of gurus is a necessary part of the dhyana. Therefore, if you do not have a siddha-pranali, how will you be able to meditate on your lineage of gurus in their siddha forms?

Again, if you don't want to discuss it with me, then that is fine. But I assume you were trying to convince me, and so I'm trying to understand how it does not say what it is saying, according to you.

Don't worry, I'm happy discussing it with you. As I did mention, the statement by VCT will make you very happy when seen as stand-alone evidence and looks just ripe for cherry-picking. But if you read it in the context of the whole RVC then it takes on a very different interpretation. For example, this quote occurs in the section where VCT is discussing greed, or lobha. Text 8 uses the SB quote in the context of the sadhaka's progression from the very beginning (taking shelter of Sri Guru) right upto the stage of attaining the object of your desires (prema etc). Text 9, in my opinion, follows on the same theme by suggesting that it is possible for Krsna to instruct the sadhaka from within as Paramatma as well as the sadhaka's receiving instructions from the mouth of Sri Guru, depending on the sadhaka's purity. In my view, it can be taken any number of ways, since there are references in the CC to the siksa-guru being a manifest form of Paramatma etc. And as regards the guidance within by Antaryami, VCT specifically says (RVC 2.1) that the concept of interacting with Paramatma would very much hurt the heart of devotees who are krsnanuraga, intensely attached, to Krsna. For they would prefer to see Him only in His form as Vrajendranandana; I guess that may seem like an awfully narrow concept for you. I call it gopi-bhava. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Even if it did, I can't help but notice that you pick your adjectives carefully, i.e. "so drastically," and so forth. Clearly you have your conclusions, and are not about to entertain any other possibility.

Not really. I'm always happy to hear someone's views so if you have a point to make I'll be happy to hear it. Note that I meant "drastically" in terms of all this siddha-pranali and so on, not other topics.

This of course begs another question. If a sadhaka approaches a Gaudiya raganuga guru, and the guru detects that the student is destined for some other rasa, will he refuse to give siddha-pranali, since he can only give manjari siddha pranali?

As far as I understand, yes. Besides it would make much more sense to observe a guru's mood, see if you like that and then approach him in order to receive knowledge in how to attain the same thing. So it would be common sense to approach a manjari-bhava guru for manjari-bhava, sakhya-rasa guru for sakhya-bhava, and so on. This is why Hrdaya Caitanya was upset with Syamananda for the change in the latter's mood, as well as the non-controversy about changing gurus. As far as I have understood the story as presented in Satyaraj das' book anyway.

Even in modern-day ISKCON, I have heard many devotees noting the difference in mood between HH Bhakti Caru Swami and HH Radhanatha Swami; the former seems to be focused on Krsna's Vrndavana lila whereas the latter seems more happy discussing Gaura-lila, and their disciples state that these moods are what attracted them to that particular guru. By the way, in Jaiva Dharma it is related that the guru mentioned there (Raghunath das Babaji?) gave manjari-info to Vijaya Kumara and sakhya-info to Vrajanatha. Thise seems to be a curious example, but then again bear in mind that Jaiva Dharma is a "novel".

Are you aware of any gurus refusing to give manjari siddha pranali on these grounds? Because if this is not the case, then either (1) everyone who appraoches a raganuga guru for initiation just happens to be a manjari in the spiritual world (doubtful), or (2) they all get manjari initiation regardless of their actual svarupa because that is all that is available.

You seem to be under the (mistaken?) impression that everyone has an innate svarupa, and this is not the case as is presented in the teachings of the Goswamis and Acaryas. If you read Viswanatha Chakravarti's RVC, these things will be made perfectly clear to you. Lobha arises upon hearing of the dealings of Krsna with His devotees whoever they may be. If you get "excited" when you hear of Krsna's dealings with His friends, it means you have an affinity for sakhya-rasa, and the same holds true for other bhavas. Sri Chakravatipada also says (1.6) that a sadhaka's lobha may be (1) prAktana, old i.e. cultivated in previous lifetimes, or (2) Adhunika, recent, i.e. cultivated recently (in this birth).

The idea that the svarupa is somehow "innate" seems to be a presentation of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta and/or his followers. As I mentioned elsewhere, you might like to consider readsing Chapter 6 of Shukavak das' "A Hindu Encounter With Modernity". It is a text on Sri Bhaktivinode and explains Sri Bhaktivinode's own ideas on siddha-pranali etc. very well.

This then gets back to the very legitimate concern about forcing people into a specific bhava-siddhi.

It is true that people should not be forced to follow a specific bhava just because it is the "highest" etc, but when you consider that lobha is an effect of hearing particular pastimes, the concern becomes virtually non-existent. It really is a matter of running after what attracts you the most. Caitanya's own viewpoint is that He comes only once in a day of Brahma and He gives the "highest" thing that was previously unattainable in any other yuga.

But these traditions are not Gaudiya traditions, and they will not follow Gaudiya standards of raganuga bhakti.

Fair enough. I was referring more to the bhava offered within the Vallabhite and Nimbarki traditions etc. For example I have seen devotees who wish to enjoy a conjugal relationship with Krsna themselves and, to my knowledge, facility for this bhava is not offered within the Gaudiya tradition. I have heard that the Nimbarkis do this so people may be advised to go there, that was my point. By the way, being a manjari means being Srimati's maidservant only. If Krsna approaches a manjari, they refuse and run away.

It seems ironic to me that on one hand, so much energy and time will be spent trying to paint Bhaktisiddhanta as a non-Gaudiya, but on the other hand sadhakas with a bona fide non-manjari svarup will be referred to totally different sampradayas. Assuming of course that this actually happens.

This has a danger of becoming political but I don't think anyone will be prepared to paint Sri Bhaktisiddhanta as a non-Gaudiya. The differences in opinion lie merely in approach and many people would prefer to stick with the multi-generational tried-and-tested practice rather than recent "modifications" shall we say. I think he was a very great Vaishnava.

Please post the relevant verses. If I have misunderstood "anartha-nivritti" then I would like to correct that.

I don't have my copy with me right now, perhaps someone else cna post it. I will try and find it for you though.

For one to have a relationship outside of marriage is considered very improper. So, for example, if one had a girlfriend, can he still have the lobha to practice raganuga-bhakti?

As I said elsewhere the lobha under discussion simply means the greedy desire to attain similar feelings to the associates of Krishna in Vraja. When this lobha arises, it then becomes dependent on scriptural injunctions such as the 64 items of bhajana mentioned by Sri Rup Goswami in BRS. It should be understood that following such scriptural injunctions does not allow for one to have girlfriends, eat eggs and whatnot. This is confirmed by Sri Chakravartipada in RVC.

So you are saying that one can have this lobha (and hence qualification for raganuga bhakti and siddha-pranali) even though he has these anarthas?

This is what I want to understand clearly - is it possible to have lobha in spite of gross anarthas.

As far as I have understood, yes. Bearing in mind your ISKCON background and the definition of these terms as understood within that institution, I can see how such an answer will shock you. This is why I humbly suggest that you study some articles on raganuga-bhakti, lobha, siddha-pranali and anarthas etc properly before jumping to conclusions that may be improperly founded.

Sincerely,

Bogus Rascal /images/graemlins/wink.gif

April 16, 2005

So funny to see people support Shiva here. Why don't you ask him what he believes and then compare that to the beliefs of *any* Gaudiya from any group. Anyone think that having a conjugal relationship with Radha is what it's all about? Shiva does.

He also thinks that having a guru and taking initiation from him is not necessary. Besides that, Arjuna and Krishna have a relationship in madhurya-rasa, and eligibility for raganuga-bhakti is like being an employee in Wal-Mart.

And of course, we should not forget that Srimati Radharani looks exactly like the Hollywood actress with loose morals, Jessica Alba.

April 16, 2005

Please post the relevant verses. If I have misunderstood "anartha-nivritti" then I would like to correct that.

As I do not have my copy of MK right now, I am copy-pasting this from another forum for you:

There are four divisions of anartha: duSkRtottha (arising from evil deeds), sukRtottha (arising from pious deeds), bhaktyuttha (arising from the practice of bhakti) and aparAdhottha (arising from aparadha). The first two divisions evidently fall within the realm of karma, while the other two do not. As you may read in Madhurya-kadambini, the first two are more easily overcome, while the other two are more difficult, the last one, aparAdhottha, clinging along all the way until prema is attained.

Visvanatha has divided the gradual vanishment of anartha under five divisions: (1) eka-deza-vArttini -- partial, (2) bahu-deza-vArttini -- pervasive, (3) prAyikI (very pervasive), (4) pUrNA (complete), and (5) AtyantikI (absolute). They unfold as follows:

duSkRtottha and sukRtottha: niSTha - prAyikI | Asakti - AtyantikI.

bhaktyuttha: bhajana-kriya - eka-deza-varttini | pUrNA - niSTha | Asakti - AtyantikI.

aparAdhottha: bhajana-kriya - eka-deza-varttini | niSTha - bahu-deza-varttini | prAyikI - rati | pUrNA - prema | AtyantikI - bhagavat-.-prApti (upon attaining the feet of the Lord, ie. when taking birth in prakaTa-lIlA).

-------------

kaizcit tu nAmakIrtanAdivatAM bhaktAnAM prema liGgAdarzanena pApa pravRttyA ca na kevalam aparAdhaH kalpyate vyavahArika bahu duHka darzanena cApi prArabdha nAzAbhAvazca | niraparAdhatvena nirdhAritasyAjAmilasyApi sva putra nAmakaraNa prati dina bahudhAtannAmAhvAna samayeSvapi premAbhAva dAsI saGgAdi pApa pravRtti darzanAt prArabdhAbhAve’pi yudhiSThirAder vyavahArika bahu duHka darzanAcca | tasmAt phalannapi vRkSaH prAyazaH kAla eva phalati itivat niraparAdheSu prasIdad api nAma sva prasAdaM kAla eva prakAzayet | pUrvAbhyasAt kriyamANA pApa rAzir api utkhAta daMSTroraga daMza ivAkincit karA eva | roga zokAdi duHkam api na prArabdha phalam | yasyAham anugRhnAmi hariSye taddhanaM zanaiH tato’dhanaM tyajantyasya svajanA duHkha duHkhitam | iti | nirdhanatva mahArogo mad anugraha lakSaNam ityAdi vacanAt | sva bhakta hitakAriNA tadIya dainyotkaNThAdi vardhana catureNa bhagavataiva duHkasya dIyamAnatvAt karma phalatvAbhAvena na prArabdhatvam ityAhuH || Madhurya-kadambini, 3 |5 ||

"By observing the absence of symptoms of prema in devotees chanting the holy name and the presence of a tendency to sin, some presume the existence of nama-aparadha. Moreover, seeing the material distresses in such devotees, they suppose that there is a lack of destruction of prarabdha in the devotee. Ajamila was offenseless and he did not manifest any symptom of prema, though he was daily calling the name of his son named Narayana many times. Not only that, he was also inclined to an illicit relation with the maidservant. Various miseries were seen in Yudhishthira and others despite the absence of prarabdha. The conclusion is, therefore, that generally a fruit tree bears fruit only in the proper season. Thus, though the name is pleased with an offenseless person, He bestows His mercy only in due course of time.

Sins committed by them due to their previous habits are as insignificant as the bite of a snake without poisonous fangs. Disease or other distress seen in them is not a result of prarabdha. The Lord himself has said, 'To whom I bestow My mercy, I gradually take away all his wealth. His relatives and family reject him, seeing him penniless and suffering from distresses one after another.' In another place the Lord has said, 'The great disease of poverty is a symptom of My mercy.' By His own will, the clever Lord, who gives all auspiciousness to His devotees, gives distress to His devotees to increase their humility and eagerness. Therefore, because reactions to fruitive activities are absent in them, the distress seen in the devotees is not the result of their prarabdha."

Hope this helps.

April 16, 2005

Your post was funny. Since you brought this up, i might as well expound on it.

Draupadi is an incarnation of Laksmi Devi according to the Mahabharata.

From the Mahabharata

Then those Indras, of their shorn glory said, 'We shall go from our celestial regions even unto the region of men where salvation is ordained to be difficult of acquisition. But let the gods Dharma, Vayu, Maghavat, and the twin Aswins beget us upon our would-be mother. Fighting with men by means of both celestial and human weapons, we shall again come back into the region of Indra.'

"Vyasa continued, 'Hearing these words of the former Indras, the wielder of the thunderbolt once more addressed that foremost of gods, saying, 'Instead of going myself, I shall, with a portion of my energy, create from myself a person for the accomplishment of the task (thou assignest) to form the fifth among these!' Vishwabhuk, Bhutadhaman, Sivi of great energy, Santi the fourth, and Tejaswin, these it is said were the five Indras of old.

And the illustrious god of the formidable bow, from his kindness, granted unto the five Indras the desire they cherished. And he also appointed that woman of extraordinary beauty, who was none else than celestial Sri (goddess of grace) herself, to be their common wife in the world of men. Accompanied by all those Indras, the god Isana then went unto Narayana of immeasurable energy, the Infinite, the Immaterial, the Uncreate, the Old, the Eternal, and the Spirit of these universes without limits. Narayana approved of everything. Those Indras then were born in the world of men. And Hari (Narayana) took up two hairs from his body, one of which hairs was black and the other white. And those two hairs entered the wombs of two of the Yadu race, by name Devaki and Rohini. And one of these hairs viz., that which was white, became Valadeva. And the hair that was black was born as Kesava's self, Krishna. And those Indras of old who had been confined in the cave on the Himavat are none else than the sons of Pandu, endued with great energy. And Arjuna amongst the Pandavas, called also Savyasachin (using both hands with equal dexterity) is a portion of Sakra.'

"Vyasa continued, 'Thus, O king, they who have been born as the Pandavas are none else than those Indras of old. And the celestial Sri herself who had been appointed as their wife is this Draupadi of extraordinary beauty. How could she whose effulgence is like that of the sun or the moon, whose fragrance spreads for two miles around, take her birth in any other than an extraordinary way, viz., from within the earth, by virtue of the sacrificial rites? Unto thee, O king, I cheerfully grant this other boon in the form of spiritual sight. Behold now the sons of Kunti endued with their sacred and celestial bodies of old!'...

...And observing the Pandavas in the forms of those Indras of old, and Arjuna also in the form of Indra sprung from Sakra himself, king Drupada was highly pleased. And the monarch wondered much on beholding that manifestation of celestial power under deep disguise. The king looking at his daughter, that foremost of women endued with great beauty, like unto a celestial damsel and possessed of the splendour of fire or the moon, regarded her as the worthy wife of those celestial beings, for her beauty, splendour and fame. And beholding that wonderful sight, the monarch touched the feet of Satyavati's son, exclaiming, 'O great Rishi, nothing is miraculous in thee!' The Rishi then cheerfully continued, 'In a certain hermitage there was an illustrious Rishi's daughter, who, though handsome and chaste, obtained not a husband. The maiden gratified, by severe ascetic penances, the god Sankara (Mahadeva). The lord Sankara, gratified at her penances, told her himself. 'Ask thou the boon thou desirest' Thus addressed, the maiden repeatedly said unto the boon-giving Supreme Lord, 'I desire to obtain a husband possessed of every accomplishment. Sankara, the chief of the gods, gratified with her, gave her the boon she asked, saying, 'Thou shall have, amiable maiden, five husbands.' The maiden, who had succeeded in gratifying the god, said again, 'O Sankara, I desire to have from thee only one husband possessed of every virtue?' The god of gods, well-pleased with her, spake again, saying, 'Thou hast, O maiden, addressed me five full times, repeating, 'Give me a husband.' Therefore, O amiable one, it shall even be as thou hast asked. Blessed be thou. All this, however, will happen in a future life of thine!'

"Vyasa continued, 'O Drupada, this thy daughter of celestial beauty is that maiden. Indeed, the faultless Krishna sprung from Prishata's race hath been pre-ordained to become the common wife of five husbands. The celestial Sri, having undergone severe ascetic penances, hath, for the sake of the Pandavas, had her birth as thy daughter, in the course of thy grand sacrifice. That handsome goddess, waited upon by all the celestials, as a consequence of her own acts becomes the (common) wife of five husbands. It is for this that the self-create had created her. Having listened to all this, O king Drupada, do what thou desirest.'"

From Baladeva Vidyabhusana's Prameya Ratnavali

"vishnoh syuh saktayastisristasu ya kirtita para |

saiva sristadabhinneti praha sishyan prabhurmahan || 12 ||

12. ViSNu has three energies (Cit, Jiva, Bahiranga). The one among them who is proclaimed as the highest is Sri, who is not different from him. So taught the great master to his disciples.

paraiva vishnvabhinna srirityuktam tatraiva (vi. pu., 1.9.44-45):

kalakashthanimeshadikalasutrasya gocare |

yasya saktirna suddhasya prasidatu sa no harih ||

procyate parameso yah yah suddho’pyupacaratah |

prasidatu sa no vishnuratma yah sarvadehinam || (gha) ||

That the higher [power] is Sri who is non-different from ViSNu is stated there [in the ViSNu PurANa (1.9.44-45)] as well:

12d. May Hari be pleased with us, the pure one whose power is not under the control of time which is made up of units like kalA, kASThA, nimeSa, and so forth. He, though pure, is said metaphorically to be the Lord of SrI (paramA); may that ViSNu, who is the Self of all embodied beings, be pleased with us."

Laksmi Devi is none other then an expansion of Sri Radha.

From Caitanya Caritamrta

avatari krsna yaiche kare avatara

amsini radha haite tina ganera vistara

SYNONYMS

avatari -- the source of all incarnations; krsna -- Lord Krsna; yaiche -- just as; kare -- makes; avatara -- incarnation; amsini -- the source of all portions; radha -- Srimati Radharani; haite -- from; tina -- three; ganera -- of the groups; vistara -- expansion.

TRANSLATION

Just as the fountainhead, Lord Krsna, is the cause of all incarnations, so Sri Radha is the cause of all these consorts.

laksmi-gana tanra vaibhava-vilasamsa-rupa

mahisi-gana vaibhava-prakasa-svarupa

SYNONYMS

laksmi-gana -- the goddesses of fortune; tanra -- Her; vaibhava-vilasa -- as vaibhava-vilasa; amsa -- of plenary portions; rupa -- having the form; mahisi-gana -- the queens; vaibhava-prakasa -- of vaibhava-prakasa; svarupa -- having the nature.

TRANSLATION

The goddesses of fortune are Her plenary portions, and they display the forms of vaibhava-vilasa. The queens are of the nature of Her vaibhava-prakasa.

From Srila Prabhupada

radha-purna-sakti, krsna-purna-saktiman

dui vastu bheda nai, sastra-paramana

radha-krsna aiche sadaeka-i svarupa

lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa

(Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 4.96,98)

There is no difference between the energy and the energetic, sakti-saktiman abhina. Therefore there is no difference between Radha and Krsna. Radha is purna-sakti and Krsna is purna-saktiman, so there is no difference, but, lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa, to relish the mellow of pastimes two bodies are there, Radha and Krsna, otherwise they are one. So in Vraja-lila there are two bodies, Radha and Krsna, visaya and asraya. But in the form of Gauranga They are one. Radha and Krsna combined together. Krsna assuming the mood and complexion of Radharani appears and that is Gauranga. This is the tattva, and that is a very deep and confidential tattva

more

tara madhye vraie nana bhava-rasa-bhede

krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade

TRANSLATION

Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary (completely identical) portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

The plenary expansions of Krsna's personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha's expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are vaibhava-vilasa, and the queens are vaibhava-prakasa of Radharani. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personai form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani.

From Bhaktivinoda's Sri Tattva Sutra

"O king, now I will describe to you the glories of the goddess. By her power she sustains the entire world.

"She is the potency of Lord Visnu. From her comes transcendental knowledge. You and many others have attained transcendental knowledge by her grace."

In the Narada-pancaratra, Second Night, Third Chapter, Lord Siva explains:

"The Supreme Lord is one. Still, He is manifested in two forms. One form is female: the potency of Lord Visnu. The other form is male: Lord Visnu.

From Govinda Bhasya:

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.

To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea...Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi.

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