The Hindufication of ISKCON

[Guest guest]

What do you think I am ? a police man of vedic Hindu(Vedic )Dharma, no.

--you are one who is trying to demonstrate that hindu means vedic/dharmic. To do it you have to examine every single hindu school and demonstrate that it is vedic/dharmic.

 

Well said, now go and judge every one of them because there are many groups ..

--i have already an opinion on which group is really vaishnava and who's not.. But the point is another, we have not do demonstrate that real and practising vaishnavas are worshippers of vishnu, but there's to demonstrate that real and practising hindus are vedic.. I do not think so

 

If such concepts were not in the Vedic literatures

--the impersonalism of the gita is not the same of the one preached from shankara acharya from now on... another point is that shankara acharya, having given his siddhanta, he calls his followers fools and he recommends to worship govinda

 

an individual chooses a particular course according to its nature

--that's right... different paths, different names. Demonstrate that all hindu paths are from the same concept of dharma and you'll have demonstrated that hinduism has a real philosophical and religious meaning, not only geographic

 

Dharma is not different groups.

Different groups follow it, I am not here to judge them.

--if you do not judge, you cannot state if someone has the features of dharmic group, so you are not demonstrating that hinduism means veda or dharma

 

as to when the term Hinduism was coined for Vedic Dharma

--hinduism simply classified all religions practiced in india except buddhism, ebraism, christianism, islamism. The word hinduism comes from the word "india". Muslims gave such name to the lands beyond the river hindu

 

I have no desire to put you in any defination

--so why you come in a gaudya vaishnava's forum stating that gaudya vaishnavas are hindu?

 

Only reason I got involved is when some one said the Hinduism is a body not Dharma

--all my questions to you are based on this. Demonstrate that all hindu schools are dharmic, then hinduism will be used as a synonym for dharma. Until then, in my opinion, hinduism is a material bodily designation because inside hinduism there's many non darmic or demonic paths

 

a gaudya vaishnava is a vedic follower.. both definitions are pure and transcendental. To say that a vaishnava is hindu is like to say that such vaishnava is american, a doctor, a singer, a woman and so on

 

it is more logic to say that a vaishnava is a christian, because a vaishnava follows exactly the instructions of jesus.. and it is more logic to say that a vaishnava is muslim, because muslim means something like "god servant".. but what is the meaning of hindu?? Indian?? there's many non indian vaishnavas, even gurus!

 

so hinduism and dharma are different concepts and meanings.. one is material (=indian), one is spiritual (=the eternal feature of the living being)

 

if you feel that i am mispresenting hinduism you have for forst to agree on what's dharmic, then you have to demonstrate that all schools accepted by you as hindus are dharmic...

 

simple

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(--you are one who is trying to demonstrate that hindu means vedic/dharmic. To do it you have to examine every single hindu school and demonstrate that it is vedic/dharmic. )

 

What you fail to see is the difference between the Dharma and the different groups who claim to follow it.

All this sectarian groups popping up saying my group is more Vedic then others is happening all the time it has no baring on Dharma. Dharma is in Acharan not necessary in any so-called groups.

 

Re

(--i have already an opinion on which group is really vaishnava and who's not.. But the point is another, we have not do demonstrate that real and practising vaishnavas are worshippers of vishnu, but there's to demonstrate that real and practising hindus are vedic.. I do not think so)

 

Express your opinions on different groups name them and you will have fun.

Why don’t you guys come clean and tell the truth and truth is one of the pillar of Dharma say to all the hindus who walk in to your mandir and tell them you are not Vedic.

 

Re

(--the impersonalism of the gita is not the same of the one preached from shankara acharya from now on... another point is that shankara acharya, having given his siddhanta, he calls his followers fools and he recommends to worship govinda)

 

You have no idea in what context to whom he had addressed Bhaja Govinda. He never addressed his followers as fools. Even Chetnya Mahaprabhu took sanyas from Advaita.

 

 

 

 

Re

(--hinduism simply classified all religions practiced in india except buddhism, ebraism, christianism, islamism. The word hinduism comes from the word "india". Muslims gave such name to the lands beyond the river hindu)

 

There is no proof for this, but still the fact remain those who lived beyond river Shindu practiced Dharma taken form Vedas they sacrificed their life preserving it so that you and me can follow it call it what you like I have no quarrel with that, follow it based on truthfulness, purity, mercy if this qualities are missing no matter what you call, it not Dharma.

 

Re

(--so why you come in a gaudya vaishnava's forum stating that gaudya vaishnavas are hindu?)

 

Pardon me for surfing the net and checking out the site, I will be out of here, if you bother to read all my post you would find out I never said gaudyas are Hindu although in the time of Chetanya they were known as Hindus but hey I am not arguing this point.

 

Re

(Until then, in my opinion, hinduism is a material bodily designation because inside hinduism there's many non darmic or demonic paths)

 

Fortunately your opinion has no baring on truth.

Krishna says I have created two types of people Sura and Asura so it is not surprising you find this everywhere, even your so called organization which ever that might be will not be immune from it.

 

 

Re

(it is more logic to say that a vaishnava is a christian, because a vaishnava follows exactly the instructions of jesus.. and it is more logic to say that a vaishnava is muslim, because muslim means something like "god servant".. but what is the meaning of hindu?? Indian?? there's many non indian vaishnavas, even gurus!)

 

Good luck, be honest in your approach to Hindus.

 

 

Simple be honest

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

What you fail to see is the difference between the Dharma and the different groups who claim to follow it.

--are you saying that no hindu is dharmic? :-). It is obvious that being dharmic depends from behaviour, but we are not speaking of it, we are speaking if the teaching, the ideology of every hindu group is dharmic..

Many see that not every position classified as hindu is dharmic (for example in my opinion sai baba and ramakrsna or vivekananda aren't dharmic even if dharma is obviously full of variety, so if they're hindu, hinduism is not synonym of dharma)

 

Express your opinions on different groups name them and you will have fun.

Why don’t you guys come clean and tell the truth and truth is one of the pillar of Dharma say to all the hindus who walk in to your mandir and tell them you are not Vedic.

--the problem is brought by you... there's vaishnavas, there's shaivites, there's sai babites, there's advaitins and so on.. no problem. If you leave everyone with his peculiarity and difference, everyone is peaceful, when you, for political reasons, want to put everyone under a single denomination, someone will feel that such denomination does not fit for everyone and will want demonstrations and explanations. In this way vaishnavas are simply happy to be considered vaishnavas, if you say that they are also hindus you have to demonstrate it with accuracy ... not simply say that the truth is various.

 

You have no idea in what context to whom he had addressed Bhaja Govinda. He never addressed his followers as fools.

--(bhaja govinda mudha mate, stupid intellectuals worship govinda).. that is a demonstration of the fact that we follow different religions and that the name hinduism does not fit for both us and it is not synonym of dharma.. because we have a different idea of what dharma is..

 

but still the fact remain those who lived beyond river Shindu practiced Dharma taken form Vedas

--it is not my opinion.. some followed and are now following, some did not and do not follow. The fact that everyone says to follow vedas is not relevant

 

I never said gaudyas are Hindu

--so if hinduism misses this huge and important part of dharma... hinduism is not synonym of dharma..

 

(Until then, in my opinion, hinduism is a material bodily designation because inside hinduism there's many non darmic or demonic paths)

Fortunately your opinion has no baring on truth.

--it is up to you to make an attempt to demonstrate that every so called hindu path is dharmic, in this way you'll demonstrate that i am wrong. If you do not do it, all discussions are useless and you will have not properly served the hinduism

 

even your so called organization which ever that might be will not be immune from it.

--we are not speaking if an organization with a dharmic ideology is approached by asuras or suras, we are speaking if all hindu paths are also dharmic paths... and you have no intention to demonstrate it. Maybe your idea is only sentimental, and there's nothing bad, but you cannot partecipate in a rational discussion

 

Simple be honest

--being honest means also to believe in something by rationality and not sentimentally. If you were honest you were already explaining that every so called hindu group (sai baba, swaminnarayana, maharishi, ramakrsna, aurobindo and so on..) is dharmic

 

but you are not doing it.. why?? you are able to say that in dharma there's variety, but you are not attempting to demonstrate that all so called hindu ideologies stay inside this variety

 

in this way you will demosntrate that hindu means vedic or dharmic and it is not a bodily designation

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

You are just playing with words you asked this of me and I quote

 

(--so why you come in a gaudya vaishnava's forum stating that gaudya vaishnavas are hindu?)

 

My reply was I never stated that. You twist this to mean I said it is not part vedic system, no I did not say that, so my friend we can go like this for ever. I have no intention to judge what others do, I follow my dharma which is vedic someone calls this as hindu, I do not mind but do not judge me that’s all I ask. Groups comes and go dharma remais the same.

 

Good bye

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

(--so why you come in a gaudya vaishnava's forum stating that gaudya vaishnavas are hindu?)

My reply was I never stated that. You twist this to mean I said it is not part vedic system

 

--no i did not twist anything because i have not interest to discuss now what is to be considered dharmic or adharmic.. the discussion is simply if hindu and dharmic are synonyms. If they are synonyms hinduism is a spiritual designation, if they aren't hindu is a bodily designation and it means a different thing from dharma or veda

 

i have not asked to you to make war to anyone or to judge if a group is good or bad, i have asked to you to decide what is the dharma and then to demonstrate that all hindu paths are dharmic

 

if you make it, you'll demonstrate that:

 

hinduism=sanatana dharma

 

there's not judgements, war,insults, offences... only a technical question

 

---

 

Groups comes and go dharma remais the same.

--dharmic groups remain... adharmic groups die

[krsna 3]

ISKCON's Annual Communications Meetings

Krsna Ksetra Dasa and Smita Krishna Swami at the 2005 ICELT Meetings

 

The thirteenth annual ISKCON Communications meetings saw discussion on "ISKCON and Hindu Nationalism", "Change, Continuity, Authority", and "Understanding the Postmodern Generation".

Under the auspices of the ISKCON Communcations Ministry and its GBC (Governing Body Commissioner), Anuttama Dasa, the annual ICELT (ISKCON Communications Europe Leadership Team) meetings have outgrown their title: they are more than European, with an increasing American involvement, and they are attended by many who wouldn't consider themselves "communications devotees". The meetings are growing into a vibrant think-tank. A place of vigorous enquiry safeguarded by a conservative devotional atmosphere.

 

This years meetings were held at the Goloka Dhama community in southwestern Germany and attended by more than forty delegates.

 

Special guest speakers this year included Prof. Jean Francois Mayer, from the University of Fribourg (Switzerland) who held a three hour session entitled, "ISKCON, Hindu Nationalism, and Western Sympathisers of Hindutva". Prof. Mayer spoke on the balance that ISKCON tries to find between being relevant to political leaders, specifically Indian political leaders, while remaining true to its non-sectarian and non-political ethos.

 

He mentioned that some ISKCON leaders do keep close ties with with Hindu nationalist groups and suggested that although, "these involvements seem to be individual initiatives rather than a kind of general trend within ISKCON", that it would be advisable for ISKCON to clarify its policy on such dealings. There was also discussion on one of ISKCON's favourite chestnuts: What is its relationship to Hinduism?

 

Krsna Ksetra Dasa, a now an Oxford DPhil (PhD), lead a discussion and exercises on "Change, Continuity, Authority. A Meta-Reflexive Exercise for ISKCON". He argued that ISKCON's forty years are time enough to begin evaluation of the past and to anticipate future challenges. The group particualrly discussed ISKCON's greatest challenges—noted as (1) philosophical (theological/doctrinal), (2) practical (ritual/formal), (3) experiential (emotional/individual), (4) social (institutional/communal), (5) ethical (moral/legal), (6) narrative (historical/mythic),and (7) material (artistic/expressive)—and linked these with four components of authority—canon, charisma, competence, and contingency.

 

Ohter highlights:

 

Vyenkatta Bhatta Dasa, the new Assistant Director of ISKCON COmmunications USA spoke on "Youth Audiences. Understanding the Postmodern Generation".

Anuttama Dasa led a session on the Moscow Temple's difficulties in getting planning permission. This was followed, appropriately, by a session on crisis communications.

Short reports on ISKCON in Germany, Bhaktivedanta College, and the Child Protection Office.

Shaunaka Rishi Dasa on the creation of an "ISKCON Institute" to facilitate proper study of the tradition by practitioners.

 

The forty participants were relieved from all this heavy thinking by a short retreat led by Atmananda Dasa and a picnic walk around the nearby lake.

 

 

 

[krsna 3]

My dear Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, I can understand that all living entities on this planet are illusioned by Your external energy and are enamored of the illusory satisfaction of sense gratification. Being fully engaged in illusory activities, they are reluctant to worship Your lotus feet, and because they are unaware of the benefits of surrendering unto Your lotus feet they are subjected to various miserable conditions of material existence. They are foolishly attached to so-called society, friendship and love, which simply produce different kinds of miserable conditions. Illusioned by Your external energy, everyone, both man and woman, is attached to this material existence, and all are engaged in cheating one another in a great society of the cheaters and the cheated. These foolish persons do not know how fortunate they are to have obtained this human form of life, and they are reluctant to worship Your lotus feet. By the influence of Your external energy, they are simply attached to the glare of material activities. They are attached to so-called society, friendship and love like dumb animals that have fallen into a dark well.

 

(King Muchukunda- Krsna Book 1:50)

[krsna 3]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saravati Goswami

 

 

The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher.