Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 Srila Prabhupada-Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram by Dasa Jagat Guru Swami B.G. Narasingha Maharaja Let me offer my most respectful and humble obeisances to the lotus feet of my spiritual master His Divine Grace Sri Jagat Guru Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Sri Srimad A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Let me also offer my most respectful and humble obeisances to all of Srila Prabhupada's eternal servants, paraphernalia, and pastimes. By the boundless mercy of His Divine Grace, vast numbers of conditioned souls are being drawn to the lotus feet of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha-Govinda. I humbly bow my head in the dust of the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and sincerely pray that he will accept me as one of his eternal servitor associates. The disciples of Srila Prabhupada worship His Divine Grace as the dearmost servant of Srimati Radharani in the line of Sri Rupa Goswami. I must therefore beg forgiveness at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and before all of you, the listeners and readers, for any fault or offense that I have committed in my attempt to glorify His Divine Grace. sarva-vaisnavera pa'ye kari namaskara ithe aparadha kichu nahuka amara "If I have committed any offense when dealing with so many subtle and exalted things about the great personalities, please, Nityananda Prabhu, absolve me of that offense and restore me to my normal position." We shall always remember Srila Prabhupada, our eternal father, as the empowered representative of the most glorious and beautiful queen of Sri Vrndavana, Srimati Radharani, and we shall forever aspire for the shelter of his lotus feet. What follows are eight transcendental remembrances of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's manifest pastimes in Sri Chaitanyadeva's ongoing sankirtana-lila, all of which point to his eternal service in the camp of Sri Radha. His Birth An Eternal Resident of Goloka Vrndavana It was Nandotsava, the day after Janmastami, the advent day of Lord Krsna, when Srila Prabhupada appeared in this world in a small village on the outskirts of Calcutta. It was a very auspicious day and all the people in the three worlds were engaged in a wonderful festival celebrating the birth of Sri Krsnachandra, who had advented at Sri Vrndavana Dhama almost five thousand years before. At this auspicious time, Srimati Radharani, the queen of Vrndavana, called her dear servant and said, "Please go to earth and give them Krsna's mercy." Thus her own servant was sent to this world to spread Krsna-consciousness in every town and village. Who else but the dearmost servant of Srimati Radharani could be worthy fo such a task? The same year as Srila Prabhupada's appearance (1896), Srila Thakura Bhaktivinode's introductory book in English, Sri Chaitanya: His Life and Precepts, appeared at Mc.Gill University in Canada. This was the first book about Sri Chaitanya to reach Western shores. Shortly after that, Bhaktivinode also predicted that a great soul would soon come to fulfill Sri Chaitanya's prediction from Chaitanya-Bhagavata: prthivite ache yada nagaradi-grama sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama. "In every town and village in the world, the holy name of Krsna will be sung." That Thakura Bhaktivinode's first publication came to the West in the same year that Srila Prabhupada appeared in this world as "the ambassador to fulfill the prediction of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu" is felt in the hearts of Srila Prabhupada's eternal servants as an eternal transcendental truth. Srila Prabhupada is always situated in eternal pastimes of the divine couple Sri Sri Radha-Govinda in the transcendental realm of Goloka Vrndavana. Thus the place of Srila Prabhupada's appearance in this mundane world is considered nondifferent from Goloka Vrndavana. "To teach others by example how to be a faithful disciple of sri guru, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu visited the birthplace of Isvara Puri at Kamarhatty and collected some earth from his birthsite. This Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu kept very carefully, he used to eat a small portion of it daily." (Chaitanya-Bhagavata Ch. 12) Let us therefore eternally worship the auspicious day and the auspicious place where Srila Prabhupada manifest his humble appearance in this world. His Father A Pure Devotee of Krsna Gour Mohan De, a pure devotee of Krsna, desired the very best for his son. "Please bless him," he used to say, whenever holy men used to visit his home. "Please bless my son that he will become a great devotee of Srimati Radharani." Srila Prabhupada said, "My father also trained me and instructed me to his best capacity, and he prayed for me that Radharani may be pleased upon me, and I think by my father's blessings and grace, I may have come to this position, and I have gotten into relationship with His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja also by his mercy. So it is Krsna's grace that I got a good father and also a good spiritual master." What else did Gour Mohan desire for his son? "He should learn to play mrdanga very nicely and he should engage in the worship of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda." Srila Prabhupada's father made all these arrangements: mrdanga lessons and Deities of Radha-Govinda for Srila Prabhupada's childhood worship. In due course of time, everything became wonderfully manifest in Srila Prabhupada, as per his father's transcendental desires. What wonderful arrangements the Lord makes for his pure devotees. Let the holy remembrance of Sri Gour Mohan De, the father of Srila Prabhupada and a pure devotee of Krsna, be ever present in our thoughts. His Guru My Guru Maharaja was a Vaikuntha Man Srila Prabhupada said, "The ideas I imbibed from my father in my childhood days were later on solidified by my spiritual master, the eternal father, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura." Who was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, the spiritual master of our beloved spiritual master? The eternal ego of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura is disclosed here in these two beautiful prayers: ati-laukika-gati-taulika-rati-kautuka-vapusam ati-daivata-mati-vaisnava-yati-vaibhava-purusam sa-sanatana-raghu-rupaka paramanuga-critam su-vicaraka iva jivaka iti sadhubhir-uditam subhadodaya-divase vrsa-ravija-dayitam pranamami ca caranantika-paricaraka-sahitam "O Dayita dasa, your divine personality exists within the spiritual realm, and your manner of movement is quite gentle while your divine figure fondly engages in the Lord's srngara-rasa pastimes. In addition, your external appearance radiates the prestige of a dignified renunciate-far superior to any class of demigod-and possesses the intelligence of a pure devotee. Every aspect of your distinct personality is exactly parallel with those magnificent devotees Srila Sanatana, Srila Raghunatha Dasa, and Srila Rupa Goswami. Due to your wonderful and precise judgement, the devotees have declared that you are the life-image of Srila Jiva Goswami. On your auspicious appearance day, I humbly offer my respects unto the tips of your lotus toes in the association of your favorite servitors. O Gurudeva, you are the dearmost object of King Vrsabhanu's daughter, Srimati Radharani." nite yasmin nisante nayana-jala-bharai snata-gatrarbudanam ucchair utkrosatam sri-vrsa-kapi-sutaya-dhiraya sviya-gosthim prthivi gadhandhakarair-hrta-nayana-manivavrta yena hina yatrasau tatra sighram krpana-nayana he niyatam kinkaro 'yam "At the close of night, early morn, there were thousands of devotees freshly bathed and loudly wailing, their eyes overflowing with sorrowful tears of hopelessness. Srimati Radhika, that radiantly beautiful queen of Vraja and daughter of King Vrsabhanu, had summoned her intimate servant Sri Dayita dasa to return to her divine camp, their personal family. Now in the absence of Nayana-mani-manjari, the earth planet has been vacuumed into the deepest, vacant darkness. Oh! With no further delay, kindly accept this fallen soul as your servant. O Dayita dasa, I am hoping against hope to be embraced within the fold of your divine company." (Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja) Let the transcendental memory of Srila Prabhupada as the eternal servant of the servant of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda become our exclusive meditation and bhajana. His Guru's Instructions Radha-kunda-Print Books Srila Prabhupada often spoke about the instructions of his Guru Maharaja to preach and publish Krsna-conscious literature. Srila Prabhupada was especially fond of mentioning the story of how he received his most important instructions from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura at Sri Radha-kunda. Srila Prabhupada recalled that at the time Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was feeling some dissatisfaction in regard to some disciples competing over who would live in which rooms in the newly constructed temple in Calcutta. While walking along the banks of Radha-kunda, the place of the most intimate pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura revealed his mind. "I think it would be better to sell this temple and the marble and print books." Then, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura turned to Srila Prabhupada and said, "If you ever get money, print books." Srila Prabhupada told this story many times and he would usually add these words: "And so, I am doing. Printing books is our first business. Print books and distribute them all over the world and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu will bless you." In great humility Srila Prabhupada used to say that his only qualification was that he had firm faith, guru-nistha, in the order of his spiritual master. The ultimate conception of the spiritual master in the Gaudiya-sampradaya is that the guru is the representative of Srimati Radharani. Srila Prabhupada saw his Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, in that way and that is the standard that we are to adopt if we are to enter deeply within the ocean of Krsna-consciousness. Let us always worship the holiest of holy places, Sri Radha-kunda, and let us always remember the instructions of Srimati Radharani to her most confidential servant at that most holy place. His Holy Place of Bhajana The Radha-Damodara Temple Once in Vrndavana Srila Prabhupada informed a small group of his devotees of something very sublime, "I live eternally in my rooms at the Radha-Damodara temple." The real substance of this statement is of course only fully known to Srila Prabhupada himself, but we can feel with our heart that this clearly indicates that Srila Prabhupada is an eternal member of the camp of Srila Rupa Goswami. In his small rooms overlooking the samadhi of Srila Rupa Goswami, Srila Prabhupada used to execute his daily bhajana of chanting the holy name of Krsna and writing the Bhaktivedanta purports in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Srila Prabhupada also informed us that, "I got inspiration for going to the West simply by performing my bhajana and praying before the samadhi of Srila Rupa Goswami." There he did his bhajana and there he daily sang Narottama dasa Thakura's song "Sri Rupa Manjari . ." It is in this song that we find the highest aspiration of the followers of the Rupanuga sampradaya in the service of Sri Radha. The Radha-Damodara temple is located within the rasa-mandala of Sri Vrndavana Dhama and it occupies a most exalted position as the place of highly confidential lila of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda. It was here also that the renowned devotee Srila Jiva Goswami prepared transcendental literature on the science of Krsna-consciousness. Damodara generally means bound by the ropes of love of Mother Yasoda. But there is another meaning of Damodara which is known only to the followers of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Damodara means bound by the love and affection of Srimati Radharani. So great is Srimati Radharani's love for Krsna that she has captured Krsna and bound her Lord making him Her exclusive property and servitor. The Radha-Damodara temple now stands at that place where Lord Krsna became a slave to the love of Srimati Radharani, where he bowed to her holy feet in radha . seva, and this also is the eternal place of service and bhajana of Srila Prabhupada. Let us always remember the Radha-Damodara temple, the place of holy bhajana of Srila Prabhupada and let us never forget his most exalted position as a servant of Srimati Radharani in the camp of Srila Rupa Goswami. His Arrival You Will Obtain Your Good Fortune When the good ship Jaladutta was crossing the Atlantic Ocean en route to Boston Harbor on Sept. 13, 1965, Srila Prabhupada composed a beautiful prayer in his native Bengali language. The refrain appeals to Sri Krsna, who is bound by Radharani's love. krsna taba punya habe bhai e-punya koribe jabe radharani khusi habe dhruva ati boli toma tai Commenting on Srila Prabhupada's poem, Srila Sridhara Maharaja once said, "I consider him to be a saktyavesa-avatara and this is confirmed in his writings on his spiritual journey through the Atlantic. How he arrived in America, the nature of his beginning the movement, his intense degree of dependence and dedication to Krsna, and how much he made himself empty of any other desire than the order of his gurudeva corroborate that Krsna came down to help him. In his poem Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna , we find him pleading with Krsna, 'My dear brother, your good fortune will come to you only when Srimati Radharani becomes pleased with you.' Seeing his gurudeva, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, as Radharani's delegation and his order as her divine service, he humbly submitted that he did not feel himself worthy or fit to discharge the divine service, so he enlisted Krsna in the service of his guru. He had completely dedicated himself to the purpose; he was so earnest in his prayer to Krsna that divine force came down to help him. Otherwise, it is impossible. It is not an ordinary thing that anyone can do, rather the highest thing was extensively taken down to the lowest position, to the fallen souls. It cannot but be the divine power, embodied and in a great intensity and magnitude! So, saktyavesa-avatara, I cannot but take him to be so." The longest journey begins with the first step and certainly any and all progress in Krsna-consciousness begins by first approaching Srimati Radharani. Just as all the planets revolve around the pole star, Dhruvaloka, so divine service revolves around Sri Radha. Therefore, with emphasis (dhruva) Prabhupada wrote, dhruva ati boli toma tai, emphatically imploring Krsna, "you will only be happy if Radharani is pleased; therefore, you must help me to do her service." It is the desire of Srimati Radharani to spread Krsna-consciousness all over the world and it is the desire of Sri Krsna to spread the glories of Srimati Radharani amongst the surrendered souls. Both these elements are present in the very beginning of Srila Prabhupada's attempt to start the Krsna-consciousness movement in the Western world. Once Srila Prabhupada commented that, "Krsna alone is not so beautiful." The meaning is that without Srimati Radharani by his side Krsna is incomplete. The ultimate truth is that Radha and Krsna are together eternally-they actually never separate even for a moment. As Krsna never takes even a step out of Vrndavana, similarly Krsna never leaves the side or Srimati Radharani even for a moment. The two are eternally united. The pure devotees of Krsna never desire to enjoy separately with Krsna-rather they eternally desire to serve the divine couple Sri Sri Radha-Krsna by attending to all their needs or transcendental necessities. Let us always remember the lotus feet of our divine master Srila Prabhupada who has obtained the greatest fortune from the Supreme Lord Krsna by the grace of Srimati Radharani and who is eternally engaged in their most intimate service. His Message-A Matchless Gift We Have Come Here to Receive the Greatest Gift The matchless gift that Srila Prabhupada so graciously gave to his disciples, followers, and ultimately the whole world is nicely expressed by Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami in the following prayer to his spiritual master. What we find expressed here by Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami is truly the essence of the mission of Srila Prabhupada and the most refined understanding of the substance of our Gaudiya-sampradaya. nama-srestham manum api saci-putram atra svarupam rupam tasyagrajam uru-purim mathurim gostavatim radha-kundam giri-varam aho radhika-madhavasam prapto yasya prathita-krpaya sri gurum tam nato 'smi Here Dasa Goswami prays to his gurudeva, and if we can understand the things represented in this verse, we can say that we have understood Srila Prabhupada's message. By the grace of Srila Prabhupada, we have received the highest conception of the Holy Name of Krsna and the shelter of Sri Chaitanya. Sri Chaitanya's personal secretary, Svarupa Damodara, is none other than Sri Lalita Sakhi, the closest friend of Sri Radha, who canvasses widely on her behalf. By Srila Prabhupada's grace, we have come to her shelter and also the shelter of Sri Rupa and Sanatana Goswamis. By their grace we can become acquainted with our eternal place of service at Govardhana and sometimes be called to Radha-kunda in the service of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava. Let us always remember the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, who is the giver of the matchless gift of eternal joy in the hearts of his surrendered servants and who is a torchlight of inspiration to all the members of the Gaudiya-sampradaya in the matter of spreading Krsna-consciousness all over the world. His Departure Govardhana & Karttika After preaching Krsna-consciousness around the world fifteen times in only twelve years, Srila Prabhupada lastly returned to Sri Vrndavana Dhama where he manifest his final pastimes before our eyes and gave us his last instructions. Srila Prabhupada showed us many things by his personal example and inspired us to continue preaching this Krsna-consciousness movement all over the world. Then in the month of Karttika a few days before Govardhana-puja, Srila Prabhupada suddenly manifest a great desire to go to Govardhana Hill. It came almost as a shock to the devotees who could not tolerate the idea that Srila Prabhupada might make such an arduous journey. Then with the help of Krsna Dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada's desire was relaxed, at least from the external point of view. What was it that Srila Prabhupada was teaching us or what did he actually express by telling us that he wanted to go to Govardhana Hill? It was not simply Govardhana Hill that can be reached by either car or bullock cart to which Srila Prabhupada desired to go, but it was the infinite play of his eternal Lord in the service of Sri Radha at Govardhana to which he desired to return. As Dasa Goswami realized when Sri Chaitanya gave him the Govardhana sila and gunja-mala, "Mahaprabhu has given me a place at Govardhana in the service of Sri Radhika," so Srila Prabhupada instructed us about these truths through his disappearance. Karttika is the most revered time of year in Vrndavana because it represents the month of Srimati Radharani, and Sri Govardhana Hill is the place of unlimited eternal, intimate pastimes of the Divine Couple Sri Sri Radha-Govinda. Srila Prabhupada was being called to return to those wonderful pastimes of divine love. The days and moments past and the devotees stood by helplessly--then suddenly the only meaning in our poor lives disappeared from our sight. Our most beloved guide, master, father, and friend had returned to the side of his most worshipful Lord--simultaneously, he had entered our hearts forever. The devotees shed an ocean of tears, yet to this day we have not extinguished the fire of separation felt for his affectionate and reassuring presence. How shall we maintain our lives now? Srila Prabhupada expressed his inner desire to go to Govardhana Hill and he chose the time of Karttika, the month of Srimati Radharani, for his departure from this world. Thus he has shown us the way and he has drawn the whole world to Govardhana Hill and the Karttika festival. This we have understood by our practical experience, as yearly thousands of devotees from all over the world celebrate Karttika in Vrndavana and circumambulate Govardhana Hill. Let us always remember our Divine Master, Srila Prabhupada, as an eternal servant and resident of the eternal pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda and let us carry the impression of his lotus feet and his instructions in the core of our hearts and continue on, as he so strongly desired, to become pure devotees and to spread the Krsna-consciousness movement to every corner of the world. Everything is possible by the will of Radha and Krsna, and His Divine Grace is also always present before us. Srila Prabhupada has given us the assurance and blessing that through his instructions he will be by our side at every moment. May we all be blessed with his everlasting memory and his transcendental association via faith, surrender, and transcendental loving service. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 Didn't Narasingha Swami get his name from Sridhar Maharaja ? Yes he did. I cannot understand why he would openly contradict his Guru, unless he wrote that before hearing Sridhar Maharaja speak on the same topic, anyone know ? Either way, I respect Sridhar Maharaja's opinion over anyone elses. And in fact a priya narma sakha is a servant of Radha. Due to a poor fund of knowledge, speculators may speculate endlessly as to the nature of the relationships going on in Radha Krishna's intimate circle of friends. The humble devotee will never consider himself as expert in these topics without direct experience. Unfortunately the tendency among some sectors of devotees is to consider themselves experts simply because they can read. The acaryas warn that the confidential nature of rasa lila...is confidential. If the true and complete knowledge and nature of rasa lila was available to you simply by reading, then it wouldn't be called confidential. In fact it is not available in any other way then through revelation. Bhaktivinoda's The Bhagavat: "Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view. All persons, under the sinister influence of the deluding power of Nescience, are subject to such misunderstanding in one form or another. They are fated to see nothing but a mundane tract of country in the terrestrial (Bhauma) Vrindavana and the practice of the grossest forms of debauchery in the Vraja Pastimes of Sri Krishna." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stonehearted 0 Report post Posted October 14, 2004 As you point out, I don't think Narasingha Maharaja's glorification of Srila Prabhupada necessarily contradicts Sridhar Maharaja's comments. First, I think Sridhar Maharaja offered his thoughts as conjecture, based on inferences from the poem Srila Prabhupada wrote on the Jaladuta, as well as Prabhupada's obviously close connection with Nityananda Prabhu's mercy. Then there are the priyanarma sakhas, who, as you say, are servants of Sri Radhika. When Krishna is around, they always take His side, but when Krishna's not immediately present, they are under the control of certain leaders among the sakhis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 I agree that Narasingha Swamis writing is not explicit in saying Prabhupada is a manjari, although it certainly can appear implicit to some people. I would disagree with the idea of Sridhara Maharaja's opinion being conjecture. He knew Prabhupada better then anyone else, he lived with him for many years. I know Sridhar Maharaja had a direct relationship with Paramatma, and wouldn't need to speculate on such a matter as well. The problem with the naysayers and speculators is that they are convinced that priya narma sakhas are beneath manjaris in the hierarchy of devotion. So then it stands to reason to them that all pure devotees are manjaris, or at least all Rupanugas are manjaris. That is a misconception. This is why Sanatana Goswamis Brhad Bhagavatamrtam is important. It is specifically showing the hierarchy of rasa in devotion. After attaining to Vaikuntha and living there, the Jiva travels then from one realm to the next, utilizing a hierarchical methodology, ending with becoming a gopa in Vraja. This is no mistake and has a deep esoteric meaning. So the idea that manjari bhava is better and therefore superior in devotion to priya narma sakhas, is a misunderstanding of just what the priya narma sakha rasa is all about. Of course this knowledge and realization is mot understood unless one has the mercy of Sri Radha. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stonehearted 0 Report post Posted October 14, 2004 was that my memory is that he offered it as conjecture, that he characterized it as conjecture, not indisputable fact. I didn't mean to say that I think he was guessing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 From Narasingha Swami Question: I have seen in the composition "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram" that you have indicated Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was in madhurya-rasa. However, we have also heard from other great souls quoting Srila B. R. Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja that Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja has shown affinity for sakhya-rasa. This apparently has been shown in Swami Prabhupada's prayer written on the good ship Jaladutta while he was on his way to the western world. So my question is, being an admirer of Srila Sridhara Maharaja how do you harmonize your opinion about the rasa of your Guru Maharaja with that indicated by Srila Sridhara Maharaja? Narasingha Maharaja: What Srila Sridhara Maharaja has spoken, we should take that upon our head. After the departure of our Prabhupada, it is appropriate that we should accept the direction of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Almost these very same words were uttered about Srila Sridhara Maharaja by our Guru Maharaja in a letter to Sripad Govinda Maharaja (Our Affectionate Guardians, pp. 8. ). So to accept Srila Sridhara Maharaja's opinion is quite natural for anyone who even remotely knows something of his higher subjective realizations and of his intimate relationship with our Srila Prabhupada. When Srila Sridhara Maharaja heard the recitation of the poem composed by our Guru Maharaja, "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna," he commented that there was indeed strong indication of our Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa. Srila Sridhara Maharaja said, "He has expressed himself, his eternal position, the acme of his aspiration. In Vrindavan he has established Balarama and Krishna and Nitai Gaura, and he is saying like that, Nitai Gaura are Krishna and Balarama. It's almost clear that he comes from that group. And now he's again there. Hare Krishna." Such a statement by Srila Sridhara Maharaja is not to be taken lightly. A short time later there was some objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's referring to our Guru Maharaja as being in sakhya-rasa. Some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples for some reason took objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statement. Srila Sridhara Maharaja was shocked by the immaturity of those disciples who objected. The consideration of rasa was obviously not a topic that those disciples were familiar with. Indeed their harshness in dealing with Srila Sridhara Maharaja reflected their extremely neophyte state of Krsna consciousness. At that time Srila Sridhara Maharaja made reference to the effect that because of the special empowerment of Sri Nityananda Prabhu that our Guru Maharaja might have couched his madhurya tendencies in deference to Lord Nityananda. --------- So at first Sridhar Maharaja was giving his opinion, then when the reaction to that opinion was outrage, he changed to accomodate the neophyte misconceptions in order to avoid anger and more offensive behavior. What the truth is, is what Sridhar Maharaja originally said. Whats funny, to me anyways, is the way Sridhar Maharaja had to change his position to lessen the offensive attitude of neopyhtes. Whats funny about his statement of a veiled madhurya rasa, and how Prabhupada might have couched his madhurya tendencies in deference to Lord Nityananda, is that it makes no sense. Why would Prabhupada have done such a thing ? Have you ever heard of this about any other acarya ? To me Sridhar Maharaja was clear and not really speculating. But when there was an outrage, due to neophytes not understanding rasa lila, yet thinking that they are all experts, then Sridhar Maharaja decided it was better to change his remarks, to keep the peace. to make seem like what he had said was conjecture or misunderstood. The truth is that neophytes cannot understand anything about rasa lila, but invariably think they understand everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 It really seems like at least 1 acarya is incorrect and may not be seeing krishnas pastimes properly, hearing paramatma. Both views cannot be correct a gopa cannot be a manjari, between sridhar swami and naryana maharaj, both seem to claim to know srila prabhupada the most. Both followers claim that their guru is having pastimes in the spirtual world. Who to believe??? Vijay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 it is not so simple... if you go to narayana maharaja i am sure that he will tell you that sridara swami maharaja is a uttama adhikari nitya siddha discordances of opinion are not wars, and in this plane of consciousness they're not the demonstration that one is true guru and one's false in iskcon there's not so elevated problems, fallen gurus and sannyasis had simply regulative principles problems... so be careful and avoid sarcasm (=aparadha) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 "in iskcon there's not so elevated problems, fallen gurus and sannyasis had simply regulative principles problems... so be careful and avoid sarcasm (=aparadha) " A pure devotee prabhupada failed to create one pure devotee in iskcon - only ones that left iskcon become pure due to the guidance of another "nitya sidha uttama adhikaris". Gurus fell in iskcon = no gurus are pure in iskcon, trancendental logic. "elavated problems" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja's words also speak for themselves. There is no indication that Srila Sridhar Maharaja's reamrks had any agenda. Shiva is only guessing yet again as to why this or that, and expecting us to accept his speculation as tattva! I'ts very clear that Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharja knew the eternal mood of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and what Rupanuga Vaisnava meant. What he actually said about Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's rasa is this: Devotee: Maharaj, it has been clear now, in a way, that Prabhupad (Srila Bhaktivedana Swami Maharaj) was in the sakhya rasa? Srila Sridhar Maharaj: At least temporarily he has showed like that. What he has expressed there in that journey there, it is almost clear that he liked that sort of lila best, but it may be, it might have been suppressed purposely; it also cannot be denied, maybe. That is one thing. There may be such a possibility, and he has given, he has said that Radharani was his gurudeva. His gurudeva was Radharani, but he himself was thinking that perhaps madhurya rasa should not be distributed in the first instalment. That might have been his view. Because his preaching was mostly helped by Nityanananda Prabhu, Baladeva, so influenced by their tendency, their mood, he might have for the time being had that footing. And another thing: there is another sign that he showed affinity for sakhya rasa. In Vrndavana, he has installed Baladeva, Krsna Balarama, and Nitai Gaura. Sakhya rasa preference. That also may be with the previous idea: that generally, by the influence of Nityananda, Nityananda and Baladeva has helped me to preach the lila of Krsna in such a broad way, so in gratitude, he might have place that vigraha. Here is the entire discussion. Rupanuga-sampradaya http://www.guardian-of-devotion.de/articles/sampradaya.htm Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Our Guru Maharaj (Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur), he was always Rupanuga, Rupanuga, Rupanuga. Raganuga, and then Rupanuga, particular. Generally Raganuga, and then particularly Rupanuga. That is our paricara, identification, our nature. Bhaktivinoda Thakur says,“I run to get admission under the management, administration of Rupa Goswami.” Who runs? He who has got such aspiration.He runs to become enlisted in the group of Sri Rupa, who has got such sort of prospect. And that will be the highest attainment of our fortune. He has declared it, Raghunatha Das Goswami. And still now, that is the point of my achievement for the whole Gaudiya Sampradaya.Raghunatha Das Goswami is the acharya of our highest necessity, our ultimate aim; he is the prayojana acharya. By the grace of all of you, and by the necessity, Prabhupada (Srila Saraswati Thakur) had dragged these things from me, and I cannot but remember that he wanted me to go to the West. Devotee: To tell everyone about Das Goswami. He wanted you to perhaps deliver this conception that you are carrying, for the benefit of the world. To spread this knowledge about the Goswamis, Prabhupada wanted you to go to the West. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Anyhow, and the credit is to Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj. Devotee: And Prabhupada wanted to bring everybody here. Other Devotee: Now your speaking is going to the West. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: That is by the grace of Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj. Kalidas says in the Raghuvamsa when he is approaching to describe about the Raghuvamsa, the dynasty of Raghu, in which Lord Rama appeared: “I am a man of small literary experience; so many stalwarts have sprang from that great Raghu vamsa, and I am going to describe about them with my least wealth of poetry?” He says that, and many slokas are devoted for that purpose. There is one: athava krtavardhare granthe ‘sminn purva suribhih mano vajra samuthena sutresye vastune gatih The previous renowned kavis, poets like Valmiki Muni and Srila Vyasadeva, have given a description of Raghu-vamsa, and they have made the path of my entering into that sacred description easy. How? In a necklace of jewels, the jewel is a hard thing; the thread cannot pierce it, the iron needle drill has already made a hole through it, and now the thread is passing easily. So, Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj was like a vajra, apowerful drill, the hard thing has already been pierced by him, and like a thread, I am passing through that. He was so simple; so great and so simple at the same time. Anyhow, Mahaprabhu, our Gurudeva has done through him a tremendous inconceivable thing. Even one Maharaj, who could not tolerate all these things, because he was first in charge to go to the West, and could not get the desired success, but the other day, when coming from Mayapura, that Maharaj said, “It is achintya: inconceivable. He did not want to give recognitioh, but from his mouth, the word came out. That what Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj did, that is achintya: it is inconceivable. So, it is divine. It is inconceivable what he has done, what Nityananda Prabhu, what Baladeva has done through him, that is inconceivable. Devotee: Is it possible to have two rasas in the spiritual world? Srila Sridhar Maharaj: It is not seen generally. The permission is possible. In the first stage, it may not be detected and this is a great problem to us, and a great guidance to us. Anyhow, we have come to a group which is exclusively the group of madhurya rasa. The guru-parampara you see, not of vatsalya rasa, but to madhurya rasa. Or the mantram, leading to madhurya rasa. Madhurya rasa is all-accommodating rasa, and that was mainly given by Mahaprabhu, and also Rupa, so Mahaprabhu, and also Rupanuga Sampradaya had the mantram, what we get, all rasa combined, and to help that rasa, the service of that rasa, other paraphernalia has been created. Adi rasa, and mukhya rasa. Two paricaya: denominations of the work of rasa. They are identical. Adirasa means that is the most original rasa – madhurya arasa. And mukhya rasa, the principle rasa is madhurya rasa. And the zenith of all rasa is found there. Our guru parampara is all in all madhurya rasa, and the mantras that are given to us are all in madhurya rasa, so that is the real work. Anarpita ciram cirat karunaya vartina kalau … Mahaprabhu came to give what was not previously given. That Radha Govinda, they came to jointly give the type of divine love to the public. “If you have such a qualification you can come up to this, the highest quarter.” That was the necessity of Sri Guaranga, to distribute that. All others are subservient, helping that rasa of Krsna. So, in our childhood, when not sufficiently developed, we may run here and there, but ultimately, we shall mostly go there. Devotee: Different individuals will have their respective rasas, but the original mood, the objective, is to enhance the madhurya rasa, support the madhurya rasa. Say somebody is in sakhya rasa, but he is in Mahaprabhu’s movement, he is trying all the time …. Srila Sridhar Maharja: That is also an instance. Not only that, but greater than that. Mahaprabhu tried to convert Murari Gupta, but He could not. Then he left. His strong inclination was towards Ramachandra. But still, Murari Gupta had some respect for this. Then, also, perhaps Rupa Goswami and Sanatana tried their best to take the father of Jiva Goswami, Anupama – he was a devotee of Ramachandra – to take him to krsna-lila, but they also failed. So, they tried, and that has got some value, even by Mahaprabhu and Sanatana, that is not a chance coincidence or a flickering or false attempt. So it is possible, and at the same time, there is such a strong and innate nature, that cannot be converted. That faith, that thing, is in the jiva. Both sides have been pleaded here. Devotee: Maharaj, it has been clear now, in a way, that Prabhupad (Srila Bhaktivedana Swami Maharaj) was in the sakhya rasa? Srila Sridhar Maharaj: At least temporarily he has showed like that. What he has expressed there in that journey there, it is almost clear that he liked that sort of lila best, but it may be, it might have been suppressed purposely; it also cannot be denied, maybe. That is one thing. There may be such a possibility, and he has given, he has said that Radharani was his gurudeva. His gurudeva was Radharani, but he himself was thinking that perhaps madhurya rasa should not be distributed in the first instalment. That might have been his view. Because his preaching was mostly helped by Nityanananda Prabhu, Baladeva, so influenced by their tendency, their mood, he might have for the time being had that footing. And another thing: there is another sign that he showed affinity for sakhya rasa. In Vrndavana, he has installed Baladeva, Krsna Balarama, and Nitai Gaura. Sakhya rasa preference. That also may be with the previous idea: that generally, by the influence of Nityananda, Nityananda and Baladeva has helped me to preach the lila of Krsna in such a broad way, so in gratitude, he might have place that vigraha. But our Guru Maharaj did not place, only in Panca Tattva and other places, otherwise, where the pure madhurya rasa, Mahaprabhu, Radha-Govinda and Mahaprabhu, everywhere: He installed Mahaprabhu, both combined and Radha Govinda, separate. Radha krsna pranaya vikrtir hladini saktir asmad. But Guru Maharaj, through preached exclusively this madhurya rasa, but great precausion. What is not that thing, he perhaps used ninety percent of his energy to preach that “This is not madhurya rasa.” To clear away the negative side, he had to spare in his words, “Gallons of blood” to be spared to teach that this is not madhurya rasa. Neti neti: this is not that thing, this is not that thing. And whatever he did, pujala ragapatha gaurava bhange. This whole life in a nutshell is expressed in this, his own expression. Pujala ragapatha, the very nature of my sampradaya is this. Pujala ragapatha gaurava bhange matala sadhujana visaya range. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 FYI Srila Narayana Maharja also installed Krsna Balarama Deities in Dauji, 7 km outside of vrndavana,alongside Sri Sri Radha Vinod Bihariji. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja had similar Krsna Balarama Deities installed in Bhubhanesvara and made a separate temple for Sri Sri Radha Gopinatha next door. There are three altars at the ISKCON Krsna Balarama Mandira. Raman Reti, the temples' location, is one place that Krsna and Balarama used to herd Their cows. Sri Sri Gaura Nitai, Sri Sri Krsna Balarama and Sri Sri Radha Syamasundara are also there. Radha and Krsna are not forgotten there by any means. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 There is no contradiction between the actual words of Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja and those of Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja. If you see an apparant contradiction and cannot resolve it then you need assistance from a sad guru to help you better understand that rasa is not any linear equation that can be understood by jnana, but only realized by krpa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stonehearted 0 Report post Posted October 14, 2004 Guest (Vijay?): It really seems like at least 1 acarya is incorrect and may not be seeing krishnas pastimes properly, hearing paramatma. I'm sorry, but it's clear from this that you're the one who is not in contact. What arrogance! Srila Prabhupada would never tolerate our saying anything like this, especially about Sridhar Maharaja. Once, on a walk, one disciple (I think Harikesha)repeated something Prabhupada had previously said about Bon Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada cut him off and made it clear that it is not our place to engage in such offensive talk. Just see Mahaprabhu's own expample in the case of Ramachandra Puri, who was actually rejected by his guru. One more thing is clear: rasa is not a parlor game for materialists and neophytes. That's why Sridhar Maharaja read Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's admonition--pujala raga patha gaurava bhange--as respecting raga marga from a distance. He insistently advocated caution in such matters. We would do well to heed his advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stonehearted 0 Report post Posted October 14, 2004 "Guest": A pure devotee prabhupada failed to create one pure devotee in iskcon - only ones that left iskcon become pure due to the guidance of another "nitya sidha uttama adhikaris". Gurus fell in iskcon = no gurus are pure in iskcon, trancendental logic. Well, that's just silly, and the "logic" is faulty, not transcendental. It's no wonder that you posted this anonymously. On what basis do you assert that Srila Prabhupada failed at anything, much less at creating one pure devotee? Do you think this is some sort of mechanical business? If you read our literature, you may evetually come to understand that devotional service grows like a vine. The guru plants the seed in the aspirant's heart and helps with relevant instruction, but it's up to us to cultivate that vine by watering, fertilizing, and weeding. And on what basis do you assert that none in ISKCON is a pure devotee? I can name a couple of devotees off the top of my head who seem to be aloof from all the nonsense that so disturbs us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 The Divine Realm http://www.guardian-of-devotion.de/articles/realm.htm Our real home is an abundance of freedom and comfort. It is a place where there is a natural transaction of faith, love, and affection. It is inconceivable. The scriptures say, „Do not venture to test the unthinkable plane with your reasoning. That plane really is beyond the capacity of your thought. It is under a different set of laws. Your mathematical calculations and conclusions in this world are acquainted with points, planes, and solids. At present you are a man in the world of solids, and you have some limited association with planes and points in a somewhat abstract way. Therefore, how can you calculate higher things of which you have no knowledge? The ways of living and the laws of that domain are all unknown to you, so you should not try to debate that. That plane is of quite a different nature. Do not rush to bring within your experimental laboratory, those items which are beyond the capacity of your thinking. That would be pure foolishness.“ Higher things do exist, but the general man in this world has no knowledge about them. We are men of experience and have some knowledge, but only to a particular degree and standard. We cannot venture to calculate what is beyond our reach in this three-dimensional world. But if those who actually have experience of that plane will come to us and give us some information, then we can make some comparison: „This gentleman of a particular experience of ether has written in this way, another gentleman who has experience and has also experiemented about ether has written in another particular manner.“ In this way we can gain some understanding from their investigation and their real connection with the subject matter. In the section of those investigating telescopes, we can make a comparison of their findings. The experience of one researcher with his telescope is of a certain type, and we can also learn about the experience of others with their particular telescopes. With the information available to us from their actual connection with the telescopes and their experiments, we may be able to conclude that perhaps a certain telescope was more powerful, another more powerful in a particular field. So, we have some limited capacity to compare what has been discovered beyond our senses by means of the telescope – even though we ourselves may not have a telescope. The subject of the higher things discovered by the mental „telescope“, or soul’s „telescope“, has been dealt with in the revealed scriptures. Such subject matter is known by the saints, and we are to take their help in order to have entrance within that land. We are not at present in a position to have experience of the higher plane. However, later, by the help of the saints and sacred scriptures, when we shall ourselves have that type of telescope, we shall be able to have such a higher experience. Do not let the argumentative spirit overshadow everything. Argument is not all in all: it is not that it must be the resort of every belief. The spiritual realm is inconceivable, but still we are to try to understand things according to our capacity, faith, and realization. Above all, we have to accomodate within our minds that sweetness is sweet, and truth is truth – however strong it may be. But one word of caution is in order: we should not take any standard from here and apply it to that higher realm. If one has no eyes but another can see, the blind man will naturally seek help from the one who has vision. We are also blind to what is within ourselves. Otherwise, what is the necessity of consulting a doctor? The doctor can see what we cannot: he will diagnose and then we will undergo treatment. Naturally we shall have respect and will give him something for his assistance. It is not unreasonable. The divine guide or bona fide guru is the specialist docotr, and we shall understand his or her qualification when we come to see that what he or she says is real – and not imaginary. Such vision will depend upon the degree of awakening of the eye. If one who is blind is treated by a capable doctor, he will gradually directly perceive, „Yes, I begin to see something. I now have some eye experience.“ From that time on, he will not care for the speculative opinions of the other blind people, but he will have his direct capacity to see. With the coming of sight, he can understand that the application of the medicine has had some real effect. Scientific understanding is also similar. In earlier days when Faraday discovered electricity, many people laughed, „What is this? It is mere curiosity. What utility can we derive from this electricity?“ I once read an account of Faraday demonstrating an experiment to show the effect of his discovery. He generated electricity with a machine and then he showed small pieces of paper being moved by that electric current. Many were satisfied to see his new discovery, but then a lady remarked, „But after all this, Mr. Faraday, what practical benefit shall we derive from this luxury play of yours?“ Faraday replied, „Madam, can you please tell me what is the utility of a newborn babe?“ His point was that when a baby is born we are to take care of him. Then, when grown, his energy will be put to work usefully. Similarly, some consider that God consciousness is only a luxury, a fashion, or like playing, i.e. that it has no practical application or direct utility. But when God consciousness becomes intense, those who experience it will see that all other activities, however apparently important, have no permanent value. Why? Because ultimately we want to live. We don’t want to die. To live is the main necessity and the general necessity of us all. No one can deny that they want to live. And not only live, but live happily, properly, and consciously. Furthermore, we want to avoid all affliction and misery. When God consciousness arises within someone, he can see clearly, „Why is everyone engaged in a wild goose chase in this material world? Everyone wants happiness, but all are running after an imaginary phantasmagoria.“ Happiness can never be produced from mortal things. We are making a transaction with the mortal world, but that cannot bring satisfaction: it can only lose our energy. What we collect on one side, disappears on another. A person should neither accept nor tolerate this sort of waste of energy as the principle of life. Such a wise person can see another plane of life. They can see that they are not a party to this mortal world that is like the domain of a playground. They will feel, „I am immortal. I am a member of the eternal world but I have somehow become entangled in this mortal aspect of existence. So, as soon as I can shake off this connection, I shall then stand in my proper, normal position.“ They will find that they themselves – the soul, the feeler, the conceiver – is a member of another soil but they have become entangled within this mortal pain-producing world. Yet still, with the strength of their realization, they can make improvement in their progress to the immortal plane. As proof positive comes before us we shall feel sure, „Now I see these things and hear these things, and this experience is so much more real than the world about me. The world is vague, but what I now see and hear is more real than that.“ A direct transaction is possible with the soul, with God, and with God’s land. Where we are presently living is the plane of indirect transactions: first the eye, ear, and other senses collect experience, then it goes to the mind before we can have experience of this world. But in the case of the soul, we feel everything directly ourselves without the help of any instrument, without the intervention of an intermediary. Through the microscope we see one thing, and through the naked eye we see something else. There is a difference. Through the eye, ear, nose and tongue we have some experience of this world, but concerning the soul, if we can withdraw from the „progress“ in the negative side, we shall be able to feel, „Oh! This is the nature of the soul.“ We shall directly feel who we are without the help of any instrument. So, ironically, hpelessness here in this mortal realm is a prerequisite to hope in the divine realm. The soul can see himself, he can focus upon himself and through introspection, he will realize his own innate nature. Through the process of introspection, the soul – without the help of any other instrument – will perceive all possible conceptions of himself directly. He will then understand his own soil: he will gain the conception of a higher type of soil. On that positive side he will discover: „I do not die.“ The material plane is the plane of misrepresentation and misunderstanding, but in the higher plane there is no misunderstanding. Once admitted there, our conception, though it may be partial, will be clear and true. Anyone having that experience will be convinced and he will be determined to go forward. Socrates could feel that the soul was immortal. He was so intense with his feeling that he did not give any value to his own life in this mundane world. He neglectfully disconnected himself from this world because, with great conviction, he knew the soul to be immortal. Christ also was so much convinced of his Lord that he did not give any care for the happiness and pleasures of this world: he neglectfully rejected it all. There are many things invisible to this fleshy eye that are visible with the eye of knowledge. We can concede that the eye of knowledge can see many things that the fleshy eye cannot. Similarly, a deep vision exists by which we can see things in a different, more hopeful way: „Come and see!" An eye cannot see when it is covered by cataract: but when the cataract is removed, the eye can see. Ignorance is like a cataract in our eye that causes us blindness. Our vision is only superficial, but deeper vision can see many things. This eye backed by the eye of knowledge can see many things – deeper and deeper. Our apparent sight has no value. Real value is present in the seer who can see with deeper vision. And all are not equal: there are the wise, the wiser, and even the wiser still. There is gradation, and according to his capacity, the seer will see. It is easy to see that at present we are members of this mortal world: but by what are we connected? It is our body that is the member. If we can go above the body we can go to the mind, then on to the intelligence, then to the soul. We shall find that the plane where the souls live is eternal, and the soul himself is also eternal. From there we can go on to search after the Supersoul. The Supersoul is likened to the sun that is the origin of all rays of light. These rays or particles of light are the individual souls – to which we belong. Once we find a ray of light we can approach the sun from which all rays emanate. Similarly, from the conception of our own selves, knowing ourselves to be particles of consciousness, we can search out a plane of super-consciousness, super-knowledge, and super-existence. In this way we can progress to the Ultimate Cause, the Source from which everything flows. But we cannot go just according to our own whim and minute freedom. Some sort of help and guidance from that plane is indispensably necessary. Such help comes in the form of guru, the Vaisnavas, and other agents of that land. With their help, we can make honest progress towards the goal. At present we are like monarchs of all we survey, but what we survey is all transient, mortal, and reactionary. What is pleasing today will later turn into pain, therefore we must seek a good position somewhere else, a good place to build our home elsewhere. In the course of that search we shall find that we do have our own home, and it is all-perfect. In the beginning, we may think that we shall be going to some unknown quarter: „Innumerable living entities are here around me in my present world, but where I am now trying to go, that is uncertain. It seems imaginary and abstract.“ However, when we begin our journey we shall gradually find that almost all existence is in that side, the side where all are truthful. We shall find that this material side is very meager and limited, and here there is only a tiny representation of the truth. From here, we may think that most of the existing universe is ensconed here and only a very few special souls go from here to the immortal world such as Socrates, Mohammed, and Buddha. But gradually we shall come to understand that the higher world is infinitely greater than the mundane portion we see here. We shall gradually come to understand that, as in a country, a few people are confined to a hospital or a prison and are suffering. Similarly, a paltry few persons are here in this mundane plane to be rectified. As this becomes clearer to us, we shall feel more courage to proceed, and with greater speed we shall run towards our home. Let us go home, and the nearer we are to home, our speed will increase more and more, „Oh. This is my homeland!“ At present, we are outside and our mind is also focused outside. We are helplessly moving. Our hope lies only in the grace of the divine agents. They come to pick us up and warn us. „What are you doing? Do not go on that side. It is the land of danger, the land of death. Come along with me. I shall take you to the land of eternal nectar.“ Those agents come to arouse us from our slumber, our ignorant madness. They are the Vaisnavas, and they have also given the Vedas that give some history of the divine realm and of the saints who have gone there. Through the scriptures, our faith will gradually develop and we shall increasingly keep association with the saints. In so doing, we shall make ever more quickly, intense progress towards our true domicile. „Home, Back to God, back to home – sweet, sweet, home.“ This sort of feeling we shall find within us if we are fortunate to be allowed a little participation by the grace of the canvassers of that land – the agents of the Lord, the messengers of love divine. We shall be taken to that proper soil and we shall gain some solid familiar type of conception of what our real home is like. In this way we shall progress to that side. Gaura Haribol, Gaura Haribol, Gaura Haribol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 14, 2004 "Guest": A pure devotee prabhupada failed to create one pure devotee in iskcon - only ones that left iskcon become pure due to the guidance of another "nitya sidha uttama adhikaris". Gurus fell in iskcon = no gurus are pure in iskcon, trancendental logic. Well, that's just silly, and the "logic" is faulty, not transcendental. It's no wonder that you posted this anonymously. On what basis do you assert that Srila Prabhupada failed at anything, much less at creating one pure devotee? Do you think this is some sort of mechanical business? If you read our literature, you may evetually come to understand that devotional service grows like a vine. The guru plants the seed in the aspirant's heart and helps with relevant instruction, but it's up to us to cultivate that vine by watering, fertilizing, and weeding. And on what basis do you assert that none in ISKCON is a pure devotee? I can name a couple of devotees off the top of my head who seem to be aloof from all the nonsense that so disturbs us. Would we even recognize one who was? Did we even really recognize Srila Prabhupada or just assume we have and pretend we have? Who says we really have that purity of vision to say one way or another? I like Babhru's point that explains this process is on going. Prabhupada still IS in the process of making pure devotees. This is a present tense reality. Maybe some took their initiation and vows to the spiritual master lightly or out of sentiment and then later due to wordly mindedness fell down. but we have been told that they won't perish like "the riven cloud...He that began this good work in you will complete it" or something like that from the Bible. It is for certain that Prabhupada was cent per cent serious from his end. And still is. As Prabhupada's disciples more and more become free from institutional thinking and realize that their spiritual life is in their own hands and they can approach Srila Prabhupada and Caittya-guru even now directly, surrendering alone in the temples of their own hearts, they will be more and more empowered. That has to be done living in a temple or not. Life didn't start with this body and it doesn't end with it's demise so why should anyone judge the mission of an empowered soul on that basis alone? Prabhupada's mercy extended downward into the lowest modes. He didn't start with all Brahamn realized sisyas. And he was only here in the west for 11 or 12 years. If all stick with Babhru's advice there will be thousands of pure devotees among Prabhupada's disciples. Thousands, literally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 "A pure devotee prabhupada failed to create one pure devotee in iskcon - only ones that left iskcon become pure due to the guidance of another "nitya sidha uttama adhikaris". Gurus fell in iskcon = no gurus are pure in iskcon, trancendental logic. "elavated problems"" wrong analysis.... i have said that who is fallen in iskcon did not have problems of philosophical misconceptions but simply of regulative principles the other things are your addition Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 You wrote the below "it is not so simple... if you go to narayana maharaja i am sure that he will tell you that sridara swami maharaja is a uttama adhikari nitya siddha discordances of opinion are not wars, and in this plane of consciousness they're not the demonstration that one is true guru and one's false in iskcon there's not so elevated problems, fallen gurus and sannyasis had simply regulative principles problems... so be careful and avoid sarcasm (=aparadha)" My friend when talking about a totally separte issue what is the need to compare to ISKCON "in iskcon there's not so elevated problems, fallen gurus..." Is it a case of at least we are better than them? at least we dont have fallen gurus? we have higher problems? we are more advanced? is it an insecurity or does your world revolve around comparing everything to ISKCON. ISKCON conciousness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 follow carefully the thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 This is from Bhaktisiddhanta <font color="#666666">"No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva . The Absolute alone may communicate His service to the separable constituents of Himself. This is the real nature of the function of the guru. Nityananda is the Primary Manifestive Constituent of the Divinity. Nityananda alone possesses the distinctive function of the guru. In Nityananda the function is embodied. Nityananda is the servant-God. He serves Sri Gaurasundar by the distinctive method of reverential servitude. He is identical with Sri Balarama of Krsna-lila."</font color> This is the reality of the Guru, any Guru. Any bonafide guru is acting in deference to Nityananda. Sridhar Maharaja changed his words after there was an outrage. By him saying that "in deference to Nityananda maybe madhurya was veiled" was just him trying to make peace and not upset neophytes. All bonafide Guru's are manifesting Nityananda's potency, and act in deference to Him. Nityananda is the Guru aspect of Godhead, that is what the Guru is always acting in deference towards. Thats why I thought it was funny for Sridhar Maharaja to say that. It made no sense as an explanation of why Prabhupada would write what he did on the Jaladuta, or anything else that would give Sridhar Maharaja the idea that Prabhupada was a priya narma sakha. Since Sridhar Maharaja was the only person to suggest that Prabhupada was a gopa, and it outraged many of Prabhupada's disciples who thought he had to be a gopi, it stands to reason that Prabhupada's intention of "veiling" his true manjari bhava, only affected Sridhar Maharaja ?? Since he was the only one who said Prabhupada was a gopa, that would mean that Prabhupada was "hiding", on purpose, his true manjari nature, only from Sridhar Maharaja. Who then became the only person to reveal this veiling ?? To me, this is hilarious. Sridhar Maharaja knew that the neophytes, up in arms, were not going to understand, so he didn't want to cause waves, this was his nature when dealing with Prabhupada's disciples. ------ Back to the point I was trying to make. Srila Rupa Goswami does not only teach about manjari bhava. A real Rupanuga, follows in the footsteps of Sri Rupa in that he teaches the way Sri Rupa teaches, imitation of Sri Rupa's rasa, does not a Rupanuga make. This is from The Caitanya Siksamrta by Bhaktivinoda Thakura: <font color="#666666">"Scripture and logic are not the symptoms of greed for the Lord. When the mind eagerly awaits absorption in the mood of love on hearing sweetness of the particular moods it is called pure greed. The method of practice is this: to relish topics of Krsna's pastimes while remembering Krsna and ones chosen Vraja devotee, to live in Vraja constantly, and to serve Krsna in ones body or chosen spiritual body, through service similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja with a greed for the mood of ones chosen ideal. [bhakti rasamrta sindhu Pürva Vibhäga 118] Among the angas of bhakti mentioned in vaidhi bhakti such as kirtana , those which are favorable for his service are accepted by the practitioner of rägänugä. Those aspiring for däsya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Patraka and other servants; those desirous of sakhya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Subala and other friends; those desirous of parental rasa copy the mood and gestures of Yañodä and other elders; and those desirous of madhura rasa copy the mood, service and gestures of the Vraja gopis. ...There are two types of taste of greed: temporary and natural. Sometimes devotees hear about the qualities of Nanda or Subala, derive great bliss and sometimes show similar sentiments, but this bliss and the show of sentiments are short-lived. This is called temporary greed. There is no use in such a show. It is necessary for the guru to carefully examine which rasa -däsya, sakhya, vätsalya or madhura-gives natural greed. Detecting ones natural sentiment, the guru will give teachings according to that mood. If this is not done, then the instructed mood will not be permanent, due to the unsuitability to the disciple. It should be noted that not all seekers will be qualified for madhura rasa. If a guru finds it impossible for him to decide the rasa of the disciple, he will honestly admit his inability to the disciple and direct him to approach a suitable guru. The disciple has no alternative but to take shelter of the lotus feet of the bona fide guru."</font color> Now here we see Rupa Goswami telling us that we develop our own taste and choose to follow in the footsteps of a resident of Vraja. Bhaktivinoda's comments leave no doubt about what we are supposed to be teaching. Nowhere in any authoritative Gaudiya sastra do we find an exclusive teaching of manjari bhava. How Bhaktivinoda presents these teachings is how all authoritative acaryas present Gaudiya siddhanta. If someone deviates from this style of representing the teachings of the sampradaya, then they are not representing the sampradaya, as it is meant to be done. Next we hear from the Caitanya Caritamrta. Here Mahaprabhu is instructing Sri Rupa on Rasa. <font color="#666666">"According to the devotee, attachment falls within the five categories of santa-rati, dasya-rati, sakhya-rati, vatsalya-rati and madhura-rati. These five categories arise from devotees' different attachments to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The transcendental mellows derived from devotional service are also of five varieties. The chief transcendental mellows experienced with the Supreme Personality of Godhead are five -- santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhura. In addition to the five direct mellows, there are seven indirect mellows, known as laughter, wonder, chivalry, compassion, anger, disaster and fear. PURPORT Santa-bhakti-rasa is described in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (3.1.4-6) as follows: vaksyamanair vibhavadyaih saminam svadyatam gatah sthayi santi-ratir dhiraih santa-bhakti-rasah smrtah prayah sva-sukha-jatiyam sukham syad atra yoginam kintv atma-saukhyam aghanam ghanam tv isa-mayam sukham tatrapisa-svarupanubhavasyaivoru-hetuta dasadi-van-mano-jnatva-lilader na tatha mata When santa-rati (neutral attraction) exists continuously and is mixed with ecstatic emotion, and when the devotee relishes that neutral position, it is called santa-bhakti-rasa. Santa-bhakti-rasa devotees generally relish the impersonal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Since their taste of transcendental bliss is incomplete, it is called aghana, or not concentrated. A comparison is made between ordinary milk and concentrated milk. When the same devotee goes beyond the impersonal and tastes the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His original form as sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [bs. 5.1] (His transcendental, blissful body, complete in knowledge and eternity), the taste is called concentrated (ghana) transcendental bliss. Sometimes the devotees in santa-rasa relish transcendental bliss after meeting the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but this is not comparable to the transcendental bliss relished by the devotees situated in dasya-rasa, the transcendental mellow in which one renders service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Dasya-rasa, or dasya-bhakti-rasa, is described in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (3.2.3-4) as follows: atmocitair vibhavadyaih pritir asvadaniyatam nita cetasi bhaktanam priti-bhakti-raso matah anugrahy asya dasatval lalyatvad apy ayam dvidha bhidyate sambhrama-prito gaurava-prita ity api When according to his desires the living entity develops love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, this beginning stage of love is called dasya-bhakti-rasa. Dasya-bhakti-rasa is divided into two categories, called sambhrama-dasya and gaurava-dasya. In sambhrama-dasya, the devotee renders respectful service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but in the more advanced gaurava-dasya, his service takes the form of giving protection to the Lord. Sakhya-bhakti-rasa is described as follows in the Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu (3.3.1): sthayi-bhavo vibhavadyaih sakhyam atmocitair iha nitas citte satam pustim rasah preyan udiryate "According to one's original consciousness, ecstatic emotions may be exhibited as continuously existing in fraternity. When this stage of Krsna consciousness is mature, it is called preyo-rasa or sakhya-bhakti-rasa." Vatsalya-bhakti-rasa is described in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (3.4.1) as follows: vibhavadyais tu vatsalyam sthayi pustim upagatah esa vatsala-namatra prokto bhakti-raso budhaih "When eternally existing love of Godhead transforms into parental love and is mixed with corresponding emotions, that stage of spiritual existence is described by learned devotees as vatsalya-bhakti-rasa." Madhura-bhakti-rasa is described in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (3.5.1) as follows: atmocitair vibhavadyaih pustim nita satam hrdi madhurakhyo bhaved bhakti-raso 'sau madhura ratih "If in accordance with one's own natural development in Krsna consciousness one's attraction leans toward conjugal love within the heart, that is called attachment in conjugal love, or madhura-rasa." ...In conclusion, when a pure devotee is situated in any of the five principal mellows (santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhura) and that mellow is mixed with one or more of the seven indirect bhakti-rasas (hasya, adbhuta, vira, karuna, raudra, bhayanaka or bibhatsa), the indirect mellows become prominent."</font color> Now again from Sri Caitanya explaining Raganuga to Sanatana Goswami: <font color="#666666">CC Madhya 22.153: If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrndavana out of such transcendental covetousness, he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of sastra. That is the way of spontaneous love. PURPORT Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that a devotee is attracted by the service of the inhabitants of Vrndavana -- namely the cowherd men, Maharaja Nanda, mother Yasoda, Radharani, the gopis and the cows and calves. An advanced devotee is attracted by the service rendered by an eternal servitor of the Lord. This attraction is called spontaneous attraction. Technically it is called svarupa-upalabdhi. This stage is not achieved in the beginning. In the beginning one has to render service strictly according to the regulative principles set forth by the revealed scriptures and the spiritual master. By continuously rendering service through the process of vaidhi bhakti, one's natural inclination is gradually awakened. That is called spontaneous attraction, or raganuga bhakti. An advanced devotee situated on the platform of spontaneity is already very expert in sastric instruction, logic and argument. When he comes to the point of eternal love for Krsna, no one can deviate him from that position, neither by argument nor by sastric evidence. An advanced devotee has realized his eternal relationship with the Lord, and consequently he does not accept the logic and arguments of others. Such an advanced devotee has nothing to do with the sahajiyas, who manufacture their own way and commit sins by indulging in illicit sex, intoxication and gambling, if not meat-eating. Sometimes the sahajiyas imitate advanced devotees and live in their own whimsical way, avoiding the principles set down in the revealed scriptures. Unless one follows the six Gosvamis -- Sri Rupa, Sanatana, Raghunatha Bhatta, Sri Jiva, Gopala Bhatta and Raghunatha dasa -- one cannot be a bona fide spontaneous lover of Krsna. In this connection, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti kabe hama bujhaba se yugala piriti. The sahajiyas' understanding of the love affairs between Radha and Krsna is not bona fide because they do not follow the principles laid down by the six Gosvamis. Their illicit connection and their imitation of the dress of Rupa Gosvami, as well as their avoidance of the prescribed methods of revealed scriptures, will lead them to the lowest regions of hell. These imitative sahajiyas are cheated and unfortunate. They are not equal to advanced devotees (paramahamsas). Debauchees and paramahamsas are not on the same level. CC Madhya 22.154: Devotional service in spontaneous love is vividly expressed and manifested by the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Devotional service that accords with their devotional service is called raganuga bhakti, or devotional service following in the wake of spontaneous loving service.' PURPORT This verse is also found in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.270). CC Madhya 22.155: When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument. PURPORT This verse is also found in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.292). CC Madhya 22.158: The advanced devotee who is inclined to spontaneous loving service should follow the activities of a particular associate of Krsna's in Vrndavana. He should execute service externally as a regulative devotee as well as internally from his self-realized position. Thus he should perform devotional service both externally and internally. PURPORT This verse is also found in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.295). CC Madhya 22.159: Actually the inhabitants of Vrndavana are very dear to Krsna. If one wants to engage in spontaneous loving service, he must follow the inhabitants of Vrndavana and constantly engage in devotional service within his mind. CC Madhya 22.160: The devotee should always think of Krsna within himself and should choose a very dear devotee who is a servitor of Krsna in Vrndavana. One should constantly engage in topics about that servitor and his loving relationship with Krsna, and one should live in Vrndavana. If one is physically unable to go to Vrndavana, he should mentally live there. PURPORT This verse is also found in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.294). CC Madhya 22.161: Krsna has many types of devotees -- some are servants, some are friends, some are parents, and some are conjugal lovers. Devotees who are situated in one of these attitudes of spontaneous love according to their choice are considered to be on the path of spontaneous loving service.</font color> The following is from Srila Prabhupadas Nectar of Devotion. <font color="#666666">No one, while remaining on the material platform, should discuss these different descriptions of bhava and anubhava by quoting different statements of transcendental literatures. Such manifestations are displays of the transcendental pleasure potency of the Lord. One should simply try to understand that on the spiritual platform there are many varieties of reciprocal love. Such loving exchanges should never be considered to be material. In the Mahabharata, Udyama-parva, it is warned that things which are inconceivable should not be subjected to arguments. Actually, the transactions of the spiritual world are inconceivable to us in our present state of life. Great liberated souls like Rupa Gosvami and others have tried to give us some hints of transcendental activities in the spiritual world, but on the whole these transactions will remain inconceivable to us at the present moment. Understanding the exchanges of transcendental loving service with Krsna is possible only when one is actually in touch with the pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord. </font color> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 14, 2004 Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu by Srila Rupa Goswami Translation and commentary by Tridandi Hrydaya Bon Maharaj Rector, Institute of Oriental Philosophy INTRODUCTION (contd.) So far the different stages in the gradual development of PREMA starting from SRADDHA to PREMA, have been dealt with by Sri Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, and we have given here just a summary of the same. It will however, be necessary to explain here in a nutshell how Prema further unfolds itself into SNEHA, MANA, PANAYA, RAGA, ANU-RAGA, BHAVA and MAHABHAVA in relation to the transcendental Love-Pastimes in Madhura-rati, i.e. supra-mundane wifehood and mistresshood of the freed soul (which is no more misidentified with the physical and mental bodies) in relation to the Supreme Godhead in His Husbandhood and Paramourhood respectively, there being absolutely nothing mundane and physical in it, though it may sound so. . . http://bvml.org/SHBM/brs2.htm . . . As a finite self is not eligible for Mahabhava, Sri Rupa Gosvami has dealt with the conception of Uttama-Bhakti or Bhakti which is of the purest and highest type in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu for the spiritual benefit of all; and Mahabhava and Ujjvala-Rasa have been discussed separately in his Ujjvala-Nilamani so that Mukta Jivas or freed souls could aspire after Prema-rasa in subservience to the Ragatmikas or the Eternally Associated Parts and Counter-Wholes of the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna. If our English rendering of the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu will help our readers in understanding the true character of unalloyed Bhakti, the Lord will bless us. With this humble prayer, we place this book before unbiased readers of the English-knowing world Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 For information from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura with regard to ujjvala nilamani you can read here: http://www.bvml.org/SBNM/JD/31-40. Vijaya-kumara, "O master, you have been merciful to me without limit. I would like to ask a question about the confidential truths of the splendid madhura-rasa. I have been reading Sri Ujjvala-nilamani, and some parts of it I do not understand." Hearing this, the spiritual master replied, "Baba, you are a very dear disciple of mine. You may place your questions before me. I will answer as far as I am able Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 http://www.bvml.org/SBNM/JD/31-40. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 http://www.bvml.org/SBNM/JD/31-40.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 15, 2004 ***The Purpose Of Lord Caitanya's Descent BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA Krisna - prema it is vipralambha. Lord Caitanaya do not descend for enjoing as krisna gopis and Radharani in groves Vrinadavan. Then all commentary Gaura lila as krisna lila - wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
