What is GAUDIYA vaisnavism?

theist · October 8, 2004

What is the characteristics that separate Gaudiya vaisnavism from other approaches to vaisnavism?

I have always just taken it to conjugal rasa. But really I'm sure how other lines look on congugal rasa.

Also Lord Caitanya's acintya bheda bheda apparently differs somewhat from Madhva and Ramanuja. I have never been able to understand these distinctions clearly.

Hoping for an intelligent discussion that is not overly scholastic so I can follow along. If that's not possible then so be it.

Thanks

Puru_Das · October 9, 2004

These references may begin to answer your qustion.

Chapter Sixteen

Bilvapaksa and Bharadvaja-tila

. . . "One time some brahmana devotees of Siva worshipped him by offering the leaves of his favorite tree, the bilva. or bael, tree for a fortnight's duration. Siva was pleased with the brahmanas and gave them krsna-bhakti. Amongst those worshipers was Nimbaditya, who had been very attentive in the worship. Siva spoke to him, 'At the edge of this village is a sacred bilva forest. Within that forest, the four Kumaras are sitting in meditation. By their mercy, you will receive transcendental knowledge. They are your gurus. By serving them, you will receive all that is of value. Saying this, Lord Siva disappeared.

"Nimbaditya searched and found that place. On an attractive platform in the forest near Siva, he saw the four brothers-Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat-kumara sitting unseen by others. They were young, naked, and noble in character. Nimbarka cried out in excitement, 'Hare Krsna! Hare Krsna!'

"On hearing the holy name, the Kumaras' meditation broke. 'They opened their eyes and saw before them an ideal Vaisnava. Satisfied by this sight, one after another they embraced Nimbaditya. 'Who are you:'' they asked. 'Why have you come here? We will certainly fulfill your prayers.

"Nimbarka offered his obeisances and humbly introduced himself. Sanat-kumara smiled and said, 'The all-merciful Supreme Lord, knowing that Kali-yuga would be very troublesome, decided to propagate devotional service. He empowered four men with devotional service and sent them into the world to preach. Ramanuja, Madhva, and Visnusvami are three of these men. You are the fourth of these great devotees. Sri, Laksmi, accepted Ramanuja, Brahma accepted Madhvacarya, Rudra accepted Visnusvami, and we, meeting you today, have the good fortune to teach you. This is our intention. Previously we were engaged in meditating on the Brahman, but by the Lord's mercy that sinful act has gone away. Now that I know the sweet taste of pure devotional service, I have written one book named Sanat-kumara Samhita. You should receive initiation into its teachings.

"Seeing his guru's mercy, the wise Nimbarka quickly took his bath in the Ganges and returned. He offered obeisances and humbly said, 'O deliverer of the fallen, please deliver this low rascal.

"The four brothers gave him the Radha-Krsna mantra and instructed him how to worship Radha and Krsna filled with sentiments of great love, called bhava-marga. Having obtained that mantra, Nimbaditya resided at this sacred place and worshipped according to the injunctions of that samhita.

"Radha and Krsna bestowed Their mercy by appearing before Nimbarka. Lighting up all directions and gently smiling, They said, 'You are very fortunate. You have performed sadhana in Navadvipa, Our dear abode. Here We take on one form, as the son of Sacidevi.

"While saying this, They combined in one form as Gauranga. Nimbarka was astounded on seeing that form and exclaimed, 'Never have I seen or heard of such a remarkable form anywhere!'

"Mahaprabhu said, 'Please keep this form secret now. Just preach krsna-bhakti and the pastimes of Radha and Krsna, for I am very happy in those pastimes. When I appear as Gauranga, I will enjoy educational pastimes. At that time, you will take birth in Kashmir and tour India as a champion scholar out to defeat all opponents. Your name will be Kesava Kasmiri, and you will be celebrated everywhere for your great learning. While wandering on tour, you will come to Mayapur. The learned scholars of Navadvipa will flee when they hear your name, but I will be intoxicated with learning and take pleasure in defeating you. By the mercy of Sarasvati, you will realize My identity, give up your pride, and take shelter of Me. Then I will give you the gift of bhakti and send you out to preach devotional service again. So you can satisfy Me now by preaching the philosophy of dvaitadvaita (monism and dualism), keeping My identity secret.

"'Later, when I begin the sankirtana movement, I Myself will preach the essence of the four Vaisnava philosophies. From Madhva I will receive two essential items: his complete defeat of the Mayavada philosophy, and his service to the Deity of Krsna, accepting the Deity as an eternal spiritual being. From Ramanuja I will accept two great teachings: the concept of bhakti unpolluted by karma and jnana, and service to the devotees. From Visnusvami's teachings I will accept two main elements: the sentiment of exclusive dependence on Krsna, and the path of raga-bhakti And from you I will receive two excellent principles: the necessity of taking shelter of Radha, and the high esteem for the gopis' love of Krsna.' "

. . .

Nabadwipa Mahatmya

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

http://www.bvml.org/SBTP/SNM/rudra2.html

And here are two other references that also give some information about the "differences" bewteen the sampradayas:

Sri Madhavacarya & Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

By Bhaktivedanta Tirtha Maharaja

http://bvml.org/contemporary/smscm.htm

What Is The Difference Between The Nimbarka And Gaudiya Sampradaya?

By Bhaktivedanta Tirtha Maharaja

"The philosophy of Nimbarka Sampradaya is dvaita dvaita vada and the philosophy of Gaudiya Sampradaya is TAchintya badhe abheda tattva. Their philosophy is more like a theory and the Gaudiya sampradaya's philosophy is siddhanta. Where there is the conclusion of all sastras there is siddhanta. But where there is some theory this is called vada. So there are many different Vaisnava sampradayas but each one does not have all sastric conclusions.

The Gaudiya Sampradaya worships Sri Radha Govinda in parakiya (paramour) mood, in manjari bhava. The Nimbarka sampradaya worships Radha Krsna also but in swakiya (wedded) mood, in sakhi bhava. They have sambhoga rasa (union) and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has vipralamba rasa (separation). In separation mood the gopis are remembering Krsna and having visions of Krsna and in these they experience the appearance of Krsna. So this is Vipralamba sadhana in line with the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Other Vaisnavas are also worshiping Radha Krsna but they are never following Radhika's great separation mood. They never understand what is this greatest bhava of Hers. Her prema, sneha, manna, pranaya, bhava, mahabhava, rudha adirudha, modan, madan, premvivarta, then combined rasa is mahabhava. So there are many varieties of stages of prema. Other sampradayas never understand and never feel these things. Everything is present in Srimad Bhagavatam but other sampradayas don't understand this. They will only understand these things in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami. Otherwise this is not possible to understand.

Other sampradayas are tasting Bhagavatam but they are not going deeply into that taste because they don't have many realized commentaries. Our Gosvamis wrote many varieties of commentaries with many different meanings. They have described in their books many of Radha Krsna's unlimited lila. Bhakti-rasamrta-sindu and Ujjvala Nilamani, by Srila Rupa Goswami, are like the grammar books of Bhakti-rasas. Other sampradayas don't know the deep meanings and deep moods of rasa."

http://bvml.org/contemporary/witdbngs.htm

theist · October 9, 2004

Thank you Puru das.

Puru_Das · October 9, 2004

TEXT 37

prthvi yaiche ghata-kulera karana asraya

jivera nidana tumi, tumi sarvasraya

SYNONYMS

prthvi--the earth; yaiche--just as; ghata--of earthen pots; kulera--of the multitude; karana--the cause; asraya--the shelter; jivera--of the living beings; nidana--root cause; tumi--You; tumi--You; sarva-asraya--shelter of all.

TRANSLATION

"As the earth is the original cause and shelter of all pots made of earth, so You are the ultimate cause and shelter of all living beings."

PURPORT

As the vast earth is the source for the ingredients of all earthen pots, so the Supreme Soul is the source for the complete substance of all individual living entities. The cause of all causes, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the cause of the living entities. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (7.10), where the Lord says, bijam mam sarva-bhutanam ("I am the seed of all living entities"), and in the Upanisads (Katha Upanisad 5.3), which say, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam ("the Lord is the supreme leader among all the eternal living beings").

The Lord is the reservoir of all cosmic manifestation, animate and inanimate. The advocates of Visistadvaita-vada philosophy explain the Vedanta-sutra by saying that although the living entity has two kinds of bodies--subtle (consisting of mind, intelligence and false ego) and gross (consisting of the five basic elements)--and although he thus lives in three bodily dimensions (gross, subtle and spiritual), he is nevertheless a spiritual soul. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who emanates the material and spiritual worlds, is the Supreme Spirit. As an individual spirit soul is almost identical to his gross and subtle bodies, so the Supreme Lord is almost identical to the material and spiritual worlds. The material world, full of conditioned souls trying to lord it over matter, is a manifestation of the external energy of the Supreme Lord, and the spiritual world, full of perfect servitors of the Lord, is a manifestation of His internal energy. Since all living entities are minute sparks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the Supreme Soul in both the material and spiritual worlds. The Vaisnavas following Lord Caitanya stress the doctrine of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which states that the Supreme Lord, being the cause and effect of everything, is inconceivably, simultaneously one with His manifestations of energy and different from them.

Sri Cc. Adi 2.37

Puru_Das · October 9, 2004

Here is a wonderful article about the four sampradaya's

by His Divine Grace Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami MaharajaDisciplic Succession

(Sampradaya)

http://www.bvml.org/SBPPG/eopd4.htm

short excerpt:

from Padma Purana.

sampradaya vihina ye mantraste viphala matah

ata kalau bhavisyanti catvarah sampradayinah

sri brahma-rudar-sanaka vaisnavah ksiti pavanah

catvarste kalau bhavya utkale purusottamat

Meaning : The holy formula (mantra) that is received without the proper disciplic succession will never bear any fruit. This is why in this age Kali, four great souls will emerge and establish the different Vaishnava successions in the form of Sri Brahma, Rudra and the four Kumaras. The four great leaders will begin to manifest their four authorized disciplic successions from the holy Dham of Puri. Originally, Sri Laksmi Devi had given this sacred knowledge to Ramanujacarya, Lord Brahma to Sri Madhva, Rudra to Visnu Swami and the Four Kumaras to Nimbarkacarya. They, after being endowed with spiritual knowledge, promulgated their own individual disciplic successions. There is no chance of perfection of the mantra received if no implicit obedience to the previous spiritual masters exists.

Thus the four great spiritual masters have preached the different tenets of Vaishnava philosophy accordingly namely, non-duality with particular attributes (Visisitadvaita) by Ramanjua, pure duality (suddhadvaita) of Sri Madhva, pure non-duality (suddhadvaita) of Vishnu Swami and instantaneous oneness and difference (dvaitadvaita) of Nimbarka Swami.

theist · October 9, 2004

I think I'll be spending more time at the BVML. Years ago on VNN we were at this same point Puru. I have made no progress in understanding these differences but I think you have. I suspect many here are in a similar boat as I am so perhaps you could guide us along a bit. I haven't read the article yet but let me post a question that I think we all can gain from anyway.

Thus the four great spiritual masters have preached the different tenets of Vaishnava philosophy accordingly namely, non-duality with particular attributes (Visisitadvaita) by Ramanjua, pure duality (suddhadvaita) of Sri Madhva, pure non-duality (suddhadvaita) of Vishnu Swami and instantaneous oneness and difference (dvaitadvaita) of Nimbarka Swami.

OK, I don't understand any of these terms. Starting with Ramanuja and going slowly:

What exactly is non-duality with particular attributes and how does it differ from what is taught in Mahaprabhu's line?

Thanks.

October 10, 2004

I also have to re read the article carefully. I got Sripad Aranya Maharaja and Sripad Van maharaja to explain all four to me once in Brazil. I still can't quite discern between them. They are all similar and have only subtle differences. To really understand those differences you have to scrutinze the commentaries of each sampradaya acarya, which I do not beleive are available in English.

Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor wrote an essay on it, but I couldn't understand very much of his writing at all.

There is one Cc. purport in Adi ila Ch. 7 where HDG discusses a purport by SBSST concerning the 5 bedas, or truths all four lines accept. If I can locate it I will post that. Anyone else can take a stab at explaining this go ahead.

October 10, 2004

From http://www.indiadivine.org/chaitanya-mahaprabhu2.htm :

"From Madhva I will take two essential teachings; his complete rejection and defeat of the Mayavadi philosophy and his service to the deity of Krishna accepting Him as an eternal spiritual personality. From Ramanuja I will accept two teachings; the concept of devotional service, unpolluted by karma and jnana, and service to the devotees. From Vishnuswami]s teachings I will accept two elements; the sentiment of exclusive dependence on Krishna and the path of raga-marga or spontaneous devotion. From Nimbarka, I will take two very important principles; the necessity of taking shelter of Srimati Radharani and the high esteem of the gopi's love for Krishna."

October 10, 2004

"Sriman Madhvacarya was dissatisfied with vivarta-vada, so he propounded the doctrine of dualism (dvaita-vada), which he also supported with statements from the Vedas to suit his own purpose. Similarly Ramanujacarya taught specific monism (visistadvaita-vada), Sri Nimbadityacarya taught dualism-with monism (dvaitadvaita-vada) and Sri bisnusvami taught pure dualism (suddhadvaita-vada). Sri Sankaracarya's Mayavad philosophy is opposed to the basic principles of bhakti. Each of the Vaisnva acaryas has claimed that his principles are based on bhakti, although there are differences between the various philosophies that they taught Sriman Mahaprabhu accepted all the Vedic conclusions with due respect, and gave their essence in his own instructions. Maparabhup taught the doctine of acintya-beda-abheda-tattva (inocnceivable difference and oneness). He remained within the sampradaya of Sriman Madhavacarya, but still Sriman Mahaprabhu only accepted the essence of Madhvacarya's doctrine.

October 10, 2004

This statement by Tirtha Swami:

"The Gaudiya Sampradaya worships Sri Radha Govinda in parakiya (paramour) mood, in manjari bhava"...

Is not accurate. In the Gaudiya Sampradaya we find variety, not exclusive manjari bhava sentiment.

What I have seen is in Sanatana Goswami's Brhad Bhagavatamrtam, which is one of the Gaudiya tradition's most sacred texts, it teaches a different tattva, or philosophy, then that taught by some people who claim to be teaching "authentic" Gaudiya siddhanta.

The Brhad Bhagavatamrtam translates roughly as the great nectar of the Bhagavatam. In it Sanatana tries to condense the entirety of the Bhagavats teachings into two parts. The second part deals with an allegorical narrative of the Jiva soul in the form of one Gopa Kumar. He is taken on a Journey by the Sage Narada. We follow their adventures from Gopa Kumars first contact with Vaisnavism, He is taken by Narada through the various levels of realization. He goes from earth then to the higher planets like Siddhaloka, Brahmaloka and Sivaloka. Then he is taken to Vaikuntha and then is taken through the various Vaikuntha realms, Ayodhya, Dwaraka, and finally Vraja.

In each realm or planet that he is taken to, he spends time there and tries to fit in. In each case he feels unfullfilled. Even in Vaikuntha he feels unfullfilled. Even living with Krishna directly in Dwaraka, he fills unfullfilled.

Finally he enters Vraja. In arguably the most famous scene in all of Gaudiya literature, Krishna runs up to Gopa Kumar, embraces him, and then faints in ecstacy!!

The gopas and gopis gather around and are very worried, some think Gopa Kumar is some kind of demon who has hurt Krishna, there is a commotion until Baladeva announces that, No, Krishna has just met his good friend Gopa Kumar, and fainted in ecstacy.

Here Gopa Kumar finally finds his hearts fullfillment, he enters Vraja lila as a gopa friend of Krishna. Krishna even tosses him His flute.

Later another jiva, a disciple of Gopa Kumar, is brought by Gopa Kumar and Narada into Vraja as a gopa as well.

This ends the narrative.

So Sanatana Goswami has written the definitive commentary on the Bhagavatam in the form of a condensation of the entire Purana. The essence of Gaudiya tattva is being detailed in this work. Yet when the story of the jiva's journey into Vraja is read, we find that the Jiva enters Vraja as a Gopa, AND to make sure people understand, his disciple also becomes a gopa and enters Vraja.

Then we have Jaiva Dharma. This is Bhaktivinoda's most recognized contribution to the Gaudiya tradition.

Like Brhad Bhagavatamrtam it is a narrative story where philosophy abounds. Like Sanatana's books Bhaktivinoda takes us on a journey with a couple of souls learning all about the path of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. And like Sanatana's book it ends with the two disciples realizing their eternal roles in Vraja lila.

Again, we find one as a gopa, and this time a manjari as well.

So again we do not find the concept of "manjari or bust" as being the tradition within the Gaudiya sampradaya.

Then we can go to Jiva Goswami for his take on this subject.

This is from his famous Krsna Sandarbha.

"Gokula, the supreme abode and planet, appears like a lotus flower that has a thousand petals. The whorl of that lotus is the abode of the Supreme Lord, Krsna. This lotus-shaped supreme abode is created by the will of Lord Ananta.

The whorl of that transcendental lotus is the realm wherein dwells Krsna. It is a hexagonal figure, the abode of the indwelling predominated and predominating aspect of the Absolute. Like a diamond, the central supporting figure of self-luminous Krsna stands as the transcendental source of all potencies. The holy name consisting of eighteen transcendental letters is manifested in a hexagonal figure with six fold divisions.

The whorl of that eternal realm Gokula is the hexagonal abode of Krsna. Its petals are the abodes of gopas who are part and parcel of Krsna, to Whom they are most lovingly devoted and are similar in essence. The petals shine beautifully like so many walls. The extended leaves of that lotus are the garden-like dhama, i.e. spiritual abode of Sri Radhika, the most beloved of Krsna

After the description of the internal abode of Sri Krsna, which is the whorl of the lotus flower known as Goloka, there is a description of the petals situated about that abode. Those petals are the abodes of the cowherd residents of Goloka, who are all relatives and friends of Sri Krsna...

On this lotus flower of Goloka Vrndavana are many petals known as 'patrani sriyam', the many gardens which are abodes of Srimati Radharani and the gopis. Where these petals join the whorl of the Goloka lotus flower, the paths of Goloka are situated, and the extensions of these petals are the places of the cow-pastures of Goloka. In this way the different parts of the lotus flower of Gokula Vrndavana are described."

So although some people like to insist that the traditional teachings are solely meant to bring us to being manjaris, this is not supported in the actual tradition. The traditional teachings are not exclusively teaching manjari bhava.

So to teach manjari bhava exclusively as the goal of Bhakti, and then call that traditional Gaudiya tattva, is refuted here.

The tradition has always been that each soul finds his/her own place and rasa with Radha Krishna. Becoming a gopa is clearly enunciated in Brhad Bhagavatamrtam, we do not even find the jiva entering into Vraja as a manjari. Although elsewhere we do find that concept, clearly it is not the singular teaching of the tradition.

Some people like to present the Gaudiya tradition as an exclusively manjari centric ideology. That is not the actual tradition. Srila Prabhupada never presented Mahaprabhus teachings in that way. He always maintained that every soul has their own unique rasa with God. He never presented manjari bhava as "the" message and intent and purpose of Mahaprabhus and Krishna's teachings. You will not find that exclusive mentality anywhere in Prabhupadas books or lectures.

Some people want to present an exclusively manjari bhava centric ideology as being the "authentic" message and tradition of the Gaudiya Sampradaya. They are mistaken. They like to speak about manjaris and Mahabhava, they like to publicly discuss things they have no realization of in order to appear like an advanced devotee. These people do not know the basics of rasa, yet they feel it is their place to try and act like they are great rasika devotees by trying to teach about things that they are totally unqualified for.

Generally whenever you hear people going on about manjari bhava as the be all and end all of Bhakti, it is a given that they do not know what they are talking about. Because if they did, they wouldn't be speaking about it. Prabhupada never defined Gaudiya teachings as being all about manjari bhava, never. Those who say things like that, have no real understanding of Gaudiya teachings.

October 10, 2004

There is deep significance to the fact that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura called for his disciple to sing this bhajana for him at the end of his nara lila. Srila Prabhupada also asked his godbrother Srila Promode Puri Gosvami Maharaja to sing it for him near the same event of his maha samadhi.

Sri Rupa Manjari .

by Srila Narottama Thakur

by

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj

Sri-rupa-manjari-., sei mora sampada,

sei mor bhajana-pujana

sei mora prana-dhana, sei mora abharana,

sei mor jivanera jivana

sei mora rasa-nidhi, sei mor vancha-siddhi,

sei mor vedera dharama

sei brata, sei tapa, sei mora mantra-japa,

sei mor dharama-karama

anukula habe viddhi, se-pade hoibe siddhi,

nirakhibo e dui nayane

se rupa-madhuri-rasi, prana-kuvalaya-sasi,

praphullita habe nisi-dine

tuya adarsana-ahi, garale jaralo dehi,

ciro-dina tapita jivana

ha ha rupa koro doya, deho more .-chaya,

narottama loilo sarana

Commentary by Srila B.R. Sridhar Dev-Goswami:

Sri-rupa-manjari-., sei mora sampada, sei mor bhajana-pujana- my everything is Sri Rupa Goswami’s holy feet. We are to discuss so many classifications and positions of rasa: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhura. And in madhura-rasa Radharani’s camp is special. Then again there are so many gradations of sakhis. Then there is the class of the manjaris, the younger girls, and they have more freedom to approach: when Radha and Govinda are in union in a private environment, the manjaris can still approach. They have such freedom to visit Them. If any materials of service are necessary, the sakhis send the manjaris to that place. The sakhis do not approach there. In that way the manjaris enjoy the best confidence. The most secret service of both can be supplied through the manjaris. In the highest position they have free entrance, and their leader is Rupa Manjari. She is understood to be the leader of the whole group of younger girls, the manjaris, therefore in madhura-bhajan she is all-in-all. This has been taught to us by Narottama Thakur. For us - and the younger batch - she is our highest resort.

Sei mora sampada- my wealth is there in her feet. Sei mor bhajana-pujana - my worship and service is also in her. Sei mora prana-dhana, sei mora abharana- the very wealth and gist of my life is there; and the ornaments of my life, if any there may be, that is within her grace. Sei mor jivanera jivana - indeed, the very life of my life, if there is anything, that is also her. I am for her pleasure.

Sei mora rasa-nidhi - if there is anything, the source of any and all desirable ecstasy is only to be found there. The mine, source, and fountainhead of all rasa is there in her feet. Sei mora vancha-siddhi - and if I am to expect any other fulfilment in life, that is also there in her feet. Sei mor vedera dharama - if any duty is recommended by the Vedas for me, I would like that such duty be at her feet.

Sei brata, sei tapa - if at all there is any desired accumulation from any penance or observance of vows, that is also to be found there - sei mora mantra-japa - and the continuous repetition of a mantra in japa all ends there: all things have only one end in my case, and that is that they all meet in different phases in the feet of Rupa Manjari. If she is satisfied then the variegated nature of all sorts of my devotional practices are satisfied. Sei mor dharama-karama - and any of my conceptions of duty or activity of any phases or form all have one end and meet in one point: the holy feet of Rupa Manjari.

Anukula habe viddhi, se-pade hoibe siddhi - I only pray to the controller who is at the root of all these arrangements of affairs in this world, "Please connect me there. Oh Absolute Manager, may you grant my prayer that all my tendencies may go to attain her favour. Nirakhibo e dui nayane - and it will be so very intense and concrete as if I can see it with these eyes. It will not be vague, abstract, or imagination, but I want the most concrete realisation by the grace of the Absolute Manager."

Se rupa-madhuri-rasi, prana-kuvalaya-sasi - what sort of high class beauty is there in her holy feet! I want to jump. Let my heart be a lotus. There are two classes of lotus: the white lotus came from the sun and the red from the moon. The kuvalaya is a mixture of the two. The lustre of her body will feed me day and night as the life of my life which is compared to a kuvalaya. The kuvalaya is fed and nourished by the lustre of the moon, and her holy feet are the moon, and my very vitality is likened to the lotus. May the lustre of her beauty maintain and nourish my heart of hearts. Praphullita habe nisi-dine - and the lotus of my heart will grow by that ray, and dance.

Tuya adarsana-ahi - this is my prayer, but what is my present condition? My present condition is in the negative side, my Mistress. My present position is such that without having a sight of you, Your Grace, my heart will burn into ashes. That is my present position. Garale jaralo dehi - this is just like the poison of a cobra which produces pain within my heart. I have been bitten by a snake, and what is that snake? It is that I am not getting any direct contact with you, Your Grace. The serpent’s poison has captured my heart and I am going to die. Ciro-dina tapita jivana - and this is not a sudden thing, but from the beginning I have been suffering this sort of pain of separation from such a beautiful and hopeful life of fulfilment.

Ha ha rupa koro doya, deho more .-chaya, narottama loilo sarana - but I have now reached the extreme position and for the last time I am begging for your favour; otherwise I am going to be finished.

This was composed by Narottama Thakur in praise of Srila Rupa Goswami. In this way he has given us light of the higher quarter of bhajan life. This sampradaya is named as the Rupanuga-sampradaya, and our Guru-parampara and all these things are adjusted according to that. He wrote many songs and they are of very substantive firmament, very ecstatic, and of deep faith."

********************************

Puru_Das · October 10, 2004

Vijaya-kumara: I have heard that the great acarya Srila Jiva Gosvami preferred svakiya rasa. Is that true?

Gosvami: Not one of the true followers of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected the pure parakiya-rasa. Who can be a better teacher of this rasa than Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami? He taught the truth of the pure parakiya rasa. Srila Jiva Gosvami and Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami all accepted his teachings in this matter. In his own personal devotional service Srila Jiva Gosvami did not accept svakiya rasa. However, he did explain that even in Vraja some devotees manifest a scent of svakiya rasa. When samartha rati carries a scent of samanjasa rati, then svakiya-rasa is present in Vraja. Therefore when a slight sense of svakiya-rasa is present, the devotee may be called a worshipper in svakiya rasa. Srila Jiva Gosvami has two kinds of disciples. One group of his disciples was situated in pure parakiya-rasa. Another group of his disciples were situated in parakiya rasa mixed with svakiya rasa. According to the different inclinations of his different disciples, he gave different appropriate instructions. This he clearly explained when he wrote the words:

“What I have written is appropriate for devotees who are inclined in a certain way.”

Vijaya-kumara: Now I clearly understand that the pure Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy teaches the pure parakiya rasa. Now that I understand sambandha, please describe vayasa.

Gosvami: When you attain your relationship with Krsna, you will have a wonderful form. In your case it will be the form of a beautiful girl in Vraja. That form will be manifested in a specific age appropriate to your service. The age from ten to sixteen years is called ‘kaisora’. That is generally the appropriate age in this situation. Therefore in your spiritual form your age begins at ten and, as you make advancement in service, increases up to the age of sixteen That is called ‘vayah-sandhi’. Balya (childhood), pauganda (pre-adolescence) and vrddha (old age) do not exist among the beautiful girls of Vraja. Therefore you should know that your spiritual form is situated in the kaisora age.

Vijaya-kumara: O master, what is name? I have already received a name. Please clearly explain ‘name’ to me.

Gosvami: You naturally become the follower of a maidservant-friend of Sri Radha. That friend’s name is your name. Examining your nature, your spiritual master gives you a name. Please know that is your name eternally. The beautiful girls of Vraja will delight in addressing you by that name.

Vijaya-kumara: O master, please explain rupa.

Gosvami: Your spiritual master reveals to you the nature of the beautiful and youthful kaisora age form that, according to your own inclination, is your own form. You have an inconceivable beautiful spiritual form. If that were not so, then how could you be a maidservant of Sri Radha?

Vijaya-kumara: Please clearly describe ‘yutha’.

Gosvami: Sri Radha is your yuthesvari. You belong to a gana (sub-group) presided over by one of Sri Radha’s eight closest friends (asta-sakhi). Your spiritual master has placed you in Lalita’s gana. Therefore, following Lalita’s orders you will serve your yuthesvari (Sri Radha) and playful Lord Krsna, who enjoys pastimes with Her.

Vijaya-kumara: O master, who are the devotees that follow Candravali as their yuthesvari?

Gosvami: After many births a soul will become a fortunate and desire to be a follower of a yuthesvari. A soul who has all good fortune enters the group led by Sri Radha. The gopis led by Candravali strive to increase the bliss that Sri Radha and Lord Krsna enjoy in Their pastimes. Therefore the rival groups, called paksa, and vipaksa, make the taste of rasa sweeter. In truth Sri Radha is the only real yuthesvari. Because She enjoys wonderful pastimes with Krsna, She is glorious, and a soul who serves Her becomes glorious also.

Vijaya-kumara: Please explain visesa.

Gosvami: Your spiritual master describes to you your garments, personal qualities, and the skills you have to perform various kinds of service.

Vijaya-kumara: Please describe ‘ajna’.

Gosvami: Ajnas are of two kinds: 1 nitya (regular) and 2 naimittika (occasional). A merciful sakhi orders you to engage in a certain regular (nitya) service. This service you should diligently execute during the eight periods of the day. Any other service she may give you is naimittika service. That also you should execute diligently.

Vijaya-kumara: What is vasa?

Gosvami: Your eternal residence in Vraja is called ‘vasa’. You will take birth as a certain gopi in a certain village within the land of Vraja. Within that village you will be married to a certain gopa. However, you will be attracted by the sound of Krsna’s flute. You will be the follower of a certain sakhi. Her cottage at Radha-kunda will be your residence also. In this way your eternal nature is situated in parakiya rasa.

Vijaya-kumara: Please describe ‘seva’.

Gosvami: You are a follower of Sri Radha. Your service is to serve Her. If, when she sends you with a message, and you meet Krsna in a secluded place, Krsna expresses His love for you and proposes that you enjoy with Him, you should not accept His proposal. You are Radha’s maidservant, and without Her permission you cannot serve Krsna. You are not independent. Although you love Radha and Krsna both, your love and service to Radha is more important to you than your love and service to Krsna. That is the explanation of the word ‘seva’. Your service is to serve Sri Radha throughout the eight periods of the day. Following the descriptions in Srila Svarupa Damodara’s Kadaca (notebook), Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami describes these services in his poem Vilapa-kusumanjali.

Vijaya-kumara: What is “parakasthavasa”?

Gosvami: In the following two verses (Vilapa-kusumanjali 102 and 100) Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami describes parakasthasvasa:

“O Radha, for me somehow the present moment is flooded by a nectar ocean of many hopes. If You do not give Your mercy, then of what use to me are this life, the land of Vraja, and Sri Krsna, the enemy of Baka?”

“O Lord Krsna, O nectar moon of Gokula, O Lord whose cheerful face is a lotus flower, O sweetly smiling one, O Lord melting with compassion, so I may serve You both with love and please lead me to the place where Your beloved enjoys pastimes with You.”

Vijaya-kumara: Please describe ‘palya-dasi-bhava’

Gosvami: In the following words of Vraja-vilasa-stava (text 29) Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami describes palya-dasi-bhava:

“Flooded with the nectar of intense love for her two friends (Sri Sri Radha-Krsna), who are more dear to her than her own life, affectionately arrogant in Their presence, and daily arranging for Their rendezvous, Lalita-devi expertly teaches her friend Radha the art of jealous anger. I pray Lalita-devi will one day accept me as one of her associates.”

Vijaya-kumara: How should such a palya-dasi (maidservant) act in relation to the other gopis who are companions of Sri Lalita?

Gosvami: Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami studied all the rasa-sastras under Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has written (Vraja-vilasa-stava, text 38)

“By offering Her betel nuts, by massaging Her feet, by bringing Her water, by arranging for Her secret meeting with Lord Krsna, and by performing many other services, many gopi maidservants affectionately please Sri Radha, the great queen of Vrndavana forest. When the divine couple enjoy the presence of the great gopis for whom Sri Radha is more dear than life. I take shelter of these gopi maidservants, who have Srimati Rupa-manjari as their leader.”

Vijaya-kumara: What is the nature of the other prominent sakhis?

Gosvami: Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami gives this hint about their nature (Vraja-vilasa-stava text 30):

“Visakha-devi is the place where the youthful divine couple enjoys affectionate and playful joking pastimes. Her sweet transcendental singing eclipses the voices of the cuckoos. I pray that Visakha-devi may become pleased with me and accept me as her student.”

Vijaya-kumara: What is the nature of the vipaksa (rival) gopis?

Gosvami: Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami describes them. Please hear this description (Vraja-vilasa-stava, text 41):

“In order to increase the splendid and nectarean jealous love of Srimati Radharani, who sometimes becomes proud of Her own good fortune, Lord Krsna briefly enjoys pastimes with other gopis, who blossoms with many amorous desires. Let us offer our respectful obeisances to these gopis, who must have performed many great pious activities in their previous births in order to play this role in the Lord’s pastimes.”

That is how you should thing about the rival groups of gopis (paksa and vipaksa). However, when they are serving the Lord directly in the spiritual world, there may be a situation where mocking gopi rivals is appropriate. This direct service in the spiritual world is described in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami’s Sri Vilapa-kusumanjali. The proper way to relate to the other liberated associates of the Lord is described in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami’s Sri Vraja-vilasa-stava. The divine couple’s pastimes are seen in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami’s Sri Visakhanandabhidha-stotra and other prayers. You should see the asta-kaliya pastimes in those poems. The proper method of worship (paddhati) is seen in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami’s Sri Manah-siksah. By following that method of worship you will become rapt in meditation on the divine couple’s pastimes. Ecstatic love (bhava) is seen in Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami’s Sva-niyama-dasaka. You should carefully observe the vows describe in that poem. Srila Rupa Gosvami described the rasas in his books. Lord Caitanya gave that task to him. However, Srila Rupa Gosvami did not describe how an aspiring devotee can enter into these rasas. That Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, following the teachings in Srila Svarupa Damodara’s Kadaca, described. Lord Caitanya gave these specific tasks to these devotees, and they all followed His order.

Vijaya-kumara: Please describe the tasks Lord Mahaprabhu ordered these devotees to perform.

Gosvami: The Lord ordered Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami to describe the method of worship according to the rasas. Following that order, Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami wrote his Kadaca, which is divided into two parts, one part describing the internal path (antah-pantha) or worship according to the rasas, and the other part describing the external path (bahihi pantha) of worship according to the rasa. The internal path he placed around the neck of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, who described that path in his writings. The external path Srila Svarupa Damodara Gosvami gave to Srila Vakresvara Pandita. That teaching is the great treasure of this temple. That treasure I have given to Srila Dhyanacandra Gosvami, and he has written that treasure into a books. You already have a copy of that book. Lord Mahaprabhu ordered Lord Nityananda and Lord Advaita to preach the glories of the holy name, and He also gave Them the power to do it. Lord Mahaprabhu gave Srila Rupa Gosvami the order to write books about the rasas, and He also gave him the power to do it. Lord Mahaprabhu gave Srila Sanatana Gosvami the order to write about vaidhi bhakti and the relationship between vaidhi bhakti and raga bhakti. The Lord also gave Srila Sanatana Gosvami the order to write about the Lord’s prakata and aprakata pastimes in Gokula. Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Srila Sanatana Gosvami gave Srila Jiva Gosvami the order to write books about sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana, and they also gave him the power to do it. All of these great devotees fulfilled the orders they were given.

Vijaya-kumara: O master, what task was given to Srila Ramananda Raya?

Gosvami: Lord Mahaprabhu gave Srila Ramananda Raya the task of expanding the rasas. Srila Ramananda Raya used Srila Rupa Gosvami as his instrument in fulfilling this task.

Vijaya-kumara: O master, what task was given to Srila Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya?

Gosvami: To Srila Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya He gave the task of explaining philosophy. Srila Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya executed that task by having one of his disciples teach Srila Jiva Gosvami.

Vijaya-kumara: What task did the Lord give to the great devotees in Bengal;?

Gosvami: To the great devotees in Bengal the Lord gave the task to teaching the truth about Lord Caitanya and showing the people how to have faith in Lord Caitanya’s descriptions of Krsna-rasa. These devotees fulfilled that order by writing many books glorifying the rasas.

Vijaya-kumara: What task was given to Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami?

Gosvami: To him was given the task of preaching the glories of Srimad Bhagavatam.

Vijaya-kumara: What task was given to Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami?

Gosvami: To Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami was given the task of stopping perverted misinterpretations of pure srngara-rasa and also stopping the tendency not to have faith in vaidhi-bhakti.

Vijaya-kumara: Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati was the uncle and spiritual master of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami. What task was given to him?

Gosvami: To Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati was given the task of showing the world that the path of the rasas and anubhavas in Vraja is the highest of all paths.

Hearing all this, Vijaya-kumara thought himself very fortunate.

October 10, 2004

TEXT 203

TEXT

sanatana-krpaya painu bhaktira siddhanta

sri-rupa-krpaya painu bhakti-rasa-pranta

SYNONYMS

sanatana-krpaya--by the mercy of Sanatana Gosvami; painu--I got; bhaktira siddhanta--the conclusions of devotional service; sri-rupa-krpaya--by the mercy of Srila Rupa Gosvami; painu--I got; bhakti-rasa-pranta--the limit of the mellows of devotional service.

TRANSLATION

By the mercy of Sanatana Gosvami I have learned the final conclusions of devotional service, and by the grace of Sri Rupa Gosvami I have tasted the highest nectar of devotional service.

PURPORT

Sri Sanatana Gosvami Prabhu, the teacher of the science of devotional service, wrote several books, of which the Brhad-bhagavatamrta is very famous; anyone who wants to know about the subject matter of devotees, devotional service and Krsna must read this book. Sanatana Gosvami also wrote a special commentary on the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam known as the Dasama-tippani which is so excellent that by reading it one can understand very deeply the pastimes of Krsna in His exchanges of loving activities. Another famous book by Sanatana Gosvami is the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which states the rules and regulations for all divisions of Vaisnavas, namely, Vaisnava householders, Vaisnava brahmacaris, Vaisnava vanaprasthas and Vaisnava sannyasis. This book was especially written, however, for Vaisnava householders. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has described Sanatana Gosvami in his prayer Vilapa-kusumanjali, verse six, where he has expressed his obligation to Sanatana Gosvami in the following words:

vairagya-yug-bhakti-rasam prayatnair

apayayan mam anabhipsum andham

krpambudhir yah para-duhkha-duhkhi

sanatanas tam prabhum asrayami

"I was unwilling to drink the nectar of devotional service possessed of renunciation, but Sanatana Gosvami, out of his causeless mercy, made me drink it, even though I was otherwise unable to do so. Therefore he is an ocean of mercy. He is very compassionate to fallen souls like me, and thus it is my duty to offer my respectful obeisances unto his lotus feet." Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami also, in the last section of Caitanya-caritamrta, specifically mentions the names of Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami and Srila Jiva Gosvami and offers his respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of these three spiritual masters, as well as Raghunatha dasa. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami also accepted Sanatana Gosvami as the teacher of the science of devotional service. Srila Rupa Gosvami is described as the bhakti-rasacarya, or one who knows the essence of devotional service. His famous book Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is the science of devotional service, and by reading this book one can understand the meaning of devotional service. Another of his famous books is Ujjvala-nilamani. In this book he elaborately explains the loving affairs and transcendental activities of Lord Krsna and Radharani.

HDGACBSP

translation of

Cc. Adi lila Ch. 5, Txt 2-3

October 10, 2004

Puru...and your point is ??

There is a big difference between teaching manjari bhava as an aspect of Gaudiya siddhanta, and teaching it is the raison d'etre of the sampradaya. Especially when the people doing the teaching are ignorant of even the most basic truths of Gaudiya siddhanta, and lack real realization of their own. Anyone can repeat sastra. This doesn't make you a rasika devotee. I can train a parrot to repeat the works of the goswamis, this doesn't mean the parrot actually understands any of it.

The intricacies of rasa and the associated siddhanta having to do with that topic, are not understandable without prior full and perfect understanding, of the ontological tattva of the Bhagavata.

We see the result of this lack of prior sophistication and realization, manifest in the championing of manjari bhava as the raison d'etre of Gaudiya siddhanta.

It is my experience that the most vocal proponents from the manjari bhava obssessed sector, are clueless when it comes down to even the most basic tattva of the Gaudiya school.

It is axiomatic that the more a person champions manjari bhava and the associated minutiae of rasa. the less they understand any of it.

They will get upset with this view of mine, they will point to the works of the goswamis, and somehow think that if the goswamis wrote about something, then automatically they also can teach on that topic.

The difference is in realization. Understanding. You are not Rupa Goswami, You probably don't know the ontological difference between Radha, Krishna, and the Gopis. I have seen manjari bhava obssessed devotees without a clear idea of who Radha and Laksmi and the gopis are. They don't have a clear idea of many aspects of Gaudiya siddhanta, yet feel themselves elevated enough to represent Rupa Goswami's realizations.

October 10, 2004

Srila Prabhupada's books speak for themselves shivaji. It is our acaryas who make the points, and who actually have something substantial to say about Krsna prema, the raison d'eter for our sampradaya and the reasons for the appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. [Cc. Adi lila Ch.3 &4] discuss the matter in depth.

Your ad homenim attacks, and fault finding do nothing but make these forums fill up with useless contention, instead of reasonable discussion.

TEXT 17

gadadhara-panditadi prabhura 'sakti'-avatara

'antaranga-bhakta' kari' ganana yanhara

SYNONYMS

gadadhara--of the name Gadadhara; pandita--of the learned scholar; adi--headed by; prabhura--of the Lord; sakti--potency; avatara--incarnation; antaranga--very confidential; bhakta--devotee; kari'--accepting; ganana--counting; yanhara--of whom.

TRANSLATION

The devotees headed by Gadadhara Pandita are to be considered incarnations of the internal potency of the Lord. They are confidential devotees engaged in the service of the Lord.

PURPORT

In connection with verses sixteen and seventeen, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains in his Anubhasya: "There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love." This gradual development of devotional service is described by Sri Narottama dasa Thakura as follows:

gauranga balite habe pulaka sarira

hari hari balite nayane ba'be nira

ara kabe nitaicanda karuna karibe

samsara-vasana mora kabe tuccha habe

visaya chadiya kabe suddha habe mana

kabe hama heraba sri-vrndavana

rupa-raghunatha-pade ha-ibe akuti

kabe hama bujhaba sri-yugala-piriti

"When will there be eruptions on my body as soon as I chant the name of Lord Caitanya, and when will there be incessant torrents of tears as soon as I chant the holy names Hare Krsna? When will Lord Nityananda be merciful toward me and free me from all desires for material enjoyment? When will my mind be completely freed from all contamination of desires for material pleasure? Only at that time will it be possible for me to understand Vrndavana. Only if I become attached to the instructions given by the six Gosvamis, headed by Rupa Gosvami and Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, will it be possible for me to understand the conjugal love of Radha and Krsna." By attachment to the devotional service of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu one immediately comes to the ecstatic position. When he develops his love for Nityananda Prabhu he is freed from all attachment to the material world, and at that time he becomes eligible to understand the Lord's pastimes in Vrndavana. In that condition, when one develops his love for the six Gosvamis, he can understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna. These are the different stages of a pure devotee's promotion to conjugal love in the service of Radha and Krsna in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

TEXTS 18-19

yan-saba lana prabhura nitya vihara

yan-saba lana prabhura kirtana-pracara

yan-saba lana karena prema asvadana

yan-saba lana dana kare prema-dhana

SYNONYMS

yan-saba--all; lana--taking company; prabhura--of the Lord; nitya--eternal; vihara--pastime; yan-saba--all those who are; lana--taking company; prabhura--of the Lord; kirtana--sankirtana; pracara--movement; yan-saba--persons with whom; lana--in accompaniment; karena--He does; prema--love of God; asvadana--taste; yan-saba--those who are; lana--in accompaniment; dana kare--gives in charity; prema-dhana--love of Godhead.

TRANSLATION

The internal devotees or potencies are all eternal associates in the pastimes of the Lord. Only with them does the Lord advent to propound the sankirtana movement, only with them does the Lord taste the mellow of conjugal love, and only with them does He distribute this love of God to people in general.

PURPORT

Distinguishing between pure devotees and internal or confidential devotees, Sri Rupa Gosvami, in his book Upadesamrta, traces the following gradual process of development. Out of many thousands of karmis, one is better when he is situated in perfect Vedic knowledge. Out of many such learned scholars and philosophers, one who is actually liberated from material bondage is better, and out of many such persons who are actually liberated, one who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is considered to be the best. Among the many such transcendental lovers of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the gopis are the best, and among the gopis Srimati Radhika is the best. Srimati Radhika is very dear to Lord Krsna, and similarly Her ponds, namely, Syama-kunda and Radha-kunda, are also very dear to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments in his Anubhasya that among the five tattvas, two are energies (sakti-tattva) and the three others are energetic (saktiman tattva). Unalloyed and internal devotees are both engaged in the favorable culture of Krsna consciousness untinged by philosophical speculation or fruitive activities. They are all understood to be pure devotees, and those among them who simply engage in conjugal love are called madhurya-bhaktas, or internal devotees. The loving services in parental love, fraternity and servitude are included in conjugal love of God. In conclusion, therefore, every confidential devotee is a pure devotee of the Lord.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu enjoys His pastimes with His immediate expansion Nityananda Prabhu. His pure devotees and His three purusa incarnations, namely, Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu, always accompany the Supreme Lord to propound the sankirtana movement.

Cc. Adi lila 7. Txt 17-19

If I remember from our last exchange, you have decidedly different viewpoints concerning rasa, Radha and Krsna and Krsna Consciousness than any of our acaryas. No surprise that you take exception to the eternal moods of Srila Rupa Gosvami. There are four sampradayas. Pick one if ours doesn't suit you.

October 10, 2004

Could you point out the ad hominem attack you speak of ?

Do you know what an ad hominem attack is ?

In a debate it is the technique of attacking the person rather then the point at hand.

In other words...what you have just done.

What you just did was ignore my philosophical point, and instead you attacked me personally.

What I did was attack what I perceive as some peoples philosophical stance, not the persons themselves. I gave a reason for my position based on a philosophical points i.e they are making mistakes in both their understanding and presentation of so called "authentic" Gaudiya teachings.

What you have done is make an actual ad hominem attack. You make no philosophical point in disagreement of what I said, and instead you choose to claim that I am not a worthy person to make a comment.

Simply quoting verses that have nothing to do with my point, is not debate. And then simply claiming that I am not worth having my opinion respected, is a factual ad hominem technique.

Can you dig it ?

If you have some idea of exactly what, you were protesting about, in my points, can you present some kind of coherent rebuttal ? Or are you the "authentic" parroter, and I unworthy of your effort ?

October 10, 2004

Pot,kettle black shivaji. What philosophical point?

If you mean your conclusions regarding Srila Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad Bhagavtamrta, Jaiva Dharma and the writing of Srila Jiva Gosvami then sorry I can't accept your opinions about what you read. I've simply heard and read from other Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who indeed have the realization and maturity of adhikara to explain the goal of bhakti more thoroughly than you do. Dig that?

The quote from Cc. simply illlustrates how nicely Srila Prabhupada's explained madhurya rasa, and the moods of the eternal associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Pick a fight with someone more worthy than myself. I lack any capacity to convince you of anything with regard to the unnata ujvala rasa left to the jiva souls by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

October 10, 2004

I didn't pick a fight. I simply gave my opinion on whether or not Gaudiya teachings are best represented as being all about manjari bhava to the public. I disagreed and gave a short synopsis on why.

You, on the other hand are simply lashing out, if you hava something to say other then personal putdowns...feel free to voice your position.

Puru_Das · October 10, 2004

The opinions of our acaryas are what carry weight spiritually. What matter what we "think" if it is out of line with what they have taught???

from:

Guru Tattva

by His Divine Grace

Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/eopd2.htm

Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami in Caitanya Caritamrta has written about the principle of Sri Guru. The Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna externally takes the form of the spiritual master to give mercy to all the devotees. The Supreme Lord, who is the receiver of all worship and adoration (visaya vigraha), instead now plays the role of Spiritual master as a servitor to the Supreme Lord (asraya vigraha). Never does the spiritual master equate himself as the Supreme Lord to be served by one and all but reveals his identity as the servant of the servant of Lord Chaitanya (Krishna). Sriman Mahaprabhu has coined the verse: 'gopih bhartuh . kamalayor das das anu dasah', I am the servant of the servant of Lord Krishna. Though the spiritual master humbly thinks himself as the servant of Lord Chaitanya his sober disciples should understand him to be the transcendental expansion of Sri Chaitanya (Krishna), or His most confidential servitor. As Lord Krishna informs His beloved disciple Uddhava:

acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta sarva-deva-mayo guru'

Oh Uddhava! The spiritual master is known to be My very form. At no time should one neglect or disrespect the Guru as an ordinary mortal by envy, nor should he be viewed as having any faults. For this reason the Guru is the sum total of the demigods.

Two important verses in regard of service to Guru are illustrated:

sayam pratarupaniya bhaiksyam tasmai nivedayet

yacchanyad-apy anujnatamupaunjita samyatah

The disciple, by collection of alms (begging) in the morning and evening, should first offer this to the spiritual master. Then, only after obtaining his permission can he partake of these cooked grains in a disciplined manner.

susrusamana acaryam sadopasita nicavet

yajna-sayyasamasthanair natidure krtanjalih

One who is fixed in service to his spiritual master should humbly follow him while he is walking, to be vigilant while he is sleeping, at the time of his rest to massage his legs voluntarily and at the time of his sitting should wait nearby for his order with folded hands.

The Guru is the most beloved of Lord Mukunda. The evidence for this is illustrated in the following verses:

'gurum-varam mukunda prestatve smara' in 'Manah Siksa' by Srila Raghuantha Das, by Srila Jiva Gosvami in his 'Bhakti Sandarbha' (216/5)

suddha bhaktah sriguruh sri sivasya ca bhagavata

saha abheda drsthim tat priyatam matve naiva manyante'

and by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his 'Gurv astakam'

saksad dharitvena samasta sastrai uktas tatha bhavyate eva sadbhih

kintu prabho yah priya eva tasya vande guroh sri caranaravindam

"I offer my respectful obeisances to the spiritual master who is the non-different expansion of the Supreme, as meditated upon by the saintly people and also acts the dearest servitor of the Supreme Lord. Furthermore the Guru can be termed as the non-different expansion of Sri Radharani. Our most and compassionate spiritual master has referred to himself as Sri Varsabhanavi Dayita Das, meaning the one who is dearmost to Srimati Radhika engaged unalloyed in the service of Sri Krishna. he has revealed himself in his original identity as Nayana manjari, following in the footsteps of Srimati Radhika's beloved servant Sri Rupa Manjari (Sri Rupa Gosvami). In this way he is glorified.

tevam gopika vrsayavestan ayantikehasi

sevadhikarini guro nija . padma

dasyam pradaya kuru mam vraja kanane sri

radhanghri-sevanarase sukhinim sukhabdhe

O Gurudeva! You are immersed in an ocean of bliss and you can award transcendental service. You are the gopika beloved of Srimati Radhika. Please bestow on me the shelter of your lotus feet, so that I can be ecstatically engaged in the transcendental service of the Queen of Vraja, Srimati Radharani.

His pranam mantras are:

namah om visnu padaya krsna presthaya bhutale

srimate bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati iti namine

sri varsavhanavi devi dayitaya krpabdhaye

krsna sambandha vijnana dayine prabhave namah

madhuryajvala premadya sri rupanuga bhaktida

sri goura karuna sakti vigrahaya namas tu te

namas te gauracani sri murtaye dinatarine

rupanuga viruddhapa siddhanta dvanta harine

Meaning : - "I offer my respectful obeisances unto his Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati who is very dear to Lord Krishna, having taken shelter at His lotus feet."

"I offer my respectful obeisances to Sri Varsabhanavi Devi Dayita who is favored by Srimati Radharani and who is an ocean of mercy, delivering the science of Krishna."

"I offer my respectful obeisances unto you, the personified form of Lord Caitanya's mercy, who delivers the devotional service enriched with the conjugal love of Sri Radha and Krishna in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami."

"I offer my obeisances unto you who are the personified teachings of Lord Chaitanya the deliverer of the fallen souls. You never compromise with any teachings deviating from that as enunciated by Srila Rupa Gosvami."

October 11, 2004

What does that have to with the discussion ?

Just some more "submit" to your "betters" rhetoric. If you're looking for suckers...I mean supplicants...I mean disciples, look elsewhere.

When you have something to say that addresses the point, feel free to write that down. Simple repitition of non sequiturs serves what purpose exactly ?

Puru_Das · October 11, 2004

The fact that our acarayas are Rupanuga Vaisnavas,and that even their pranam mantras indicate that very clearly, has everything to do with the topic actually under discussion. which is the question posed by theist:

What is the characteristics that separate Gaudiya vaisnavism from other approaches to vaisnavism?

I have always just taken it to conjugal rasa. But really I'm sure how other lines look on congugal rasa.

Also Lord Caitanya's acintya bheda bheda apparently differs somewhat from Madhva and Ramanuja. I have never been able to understand these distinctions clearly.

Hoping for an intelligent discussion that is not overly scholastic so I can follow along. If that's not possible then so be it. Thanks

Shivaji, since you have your own opinions contrary to that of Sripad B.V. Tirtha Maharaja, and cannot see the relevance of pertinent information from His Divine Graces' Cc. purports, or Jaiva Dharma there is nothing much anyone can say to convince you otherwise. I'm simply trying to give information from our acaryas that elucidate the topic theist brought up and you want to argue, and discuss your personal conclusions.

The matter is very simple. Because Gopa Kumar's svarupa is not that of a manjari,in no way obviates the teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami, with regard to the siddha-svarupa of the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Al of the six Gosvamis have eternal forms as manjaris in Krsna lila:

In their forms in Vraja-lila, Srila Rupa Gosvami is Rupa manjari, Srila Sanatana Gosvami is Labanga manjari, Srila Raghunatha Bhatta is Raga manjari, Srila Jiva Gosvami is Vilasa manjari, Srila Gopala Bhatta is Guna manjari, and Srila Raghunatha das is Rati manjari. They each have two eternal forms, one as an associate of Krsna and the other as an associate of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

Pinnacle of Devotion pp.11

Anupam,the brother of two of the Gosvamis, though he tried, also could not worship Radha and Krsna because his svarupa is in seva to Sita Rama. Prabhodananda Sarasvati (Tungavidya in Krsna lila)and his brother Venkata Bhatta (the father of Gopal Bhatta Gosvami) both joined Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, even though their initial connection to Vaisnavism was in the Sri Sampradaya. Because they are parisads (eternal asociates) their svarupa placed them in direct contact to Mahaprabhu's lila. Prabhodananda Sarasvati Thakura is not a manjari either, but one of the primary gopis. His eternal identity has no direct bearing on the eternal position of the Rupanuga followers of Srila Rupa Gosvami any more than Gopa Kumar's does.

Gopa Kumar was not a Rupanuga Vaisnava. This means that even though he achieved pure bhakti as a gopa, still he was not a direct follower of Srila Rupa Gosvami [sri Rupa Manjari]. I'm not really interested in a debate with you based on your personal opinion. If you don't agree with our present or past acaryas in the matter of what following Srila Rupa Gosvami means then you are welcome to think what you will.

October 11, 2004

I made a simple point.

My point...again: Srila Prabhupada did not represent Gaudiya Vaisnavism as manjari centric. The words of Tirtha Swami did. I agree with Prabhupada in his teachings i.e the Gaudiya sampradaya teaches that there are is a variety of relationships that you can realize. He never promulgated the idea that Mahaprabhu and the Bhagavata school of thought coming from Him teach a manjari centric approach to Bhakti.

I said that while manjari bhava is indeed taught, the sampradaya is not exclusively teaching that path as it's raison d'etre or reason for existing. If it is, then why did Prabhupada not make that clear ?

In fact he never said anything like that anywhere. His teaching was always that there are different relationships to be had, and that your eternal relationship will be realized when you are ready. He never presented manjari bhava as the purpose of the Gaudiya teachings, and you will not find anywhere that he did so.

Finally you try and address one of my points i.e Brhat Bhagavatamrtam.

You say that Gopa Kumar was not a Rupanuga, therefore he is not a manjari.

This is indeed a novel concept. The story of Gopa Kumar is part of the condensed essence of the entire Bhagavatam, which itself is the condensed essence of all the Vedas. So essentially that book is the super condensed essence of all vedic knowledge. The story of Gopa Kumar is an allegory about the journey of the jiva from the material world to the highest possible plane of existence.

The story is specifically about Gopa Kumar going from one level or loka to the next, a step by step ascension to the very highest good fortune. He rejects Ramachandra's association, he even rejects Krishna's association in Dwaraka. The story is an allegory showing what is considered by all Vedic knowledge, to be the very highest position that the jiva soul needs to attain to, in order to be happy.

Eventually he enters Vraja, there he finally finds his hearts content. What is very clear is that both he, and the next jiva after him, who also becomes a gopa with the help of Narada Muni, is supposed to be experiencing the culmination of Gaudiya Bhagavat Siddhanta, after all, this is Sanatana Goswamis condensed version of the entirety of Vedic knowledge.

For you to then claim that Sanatana Goswami actually left out the actual, factual, highest teaching, is indeed a peculiar and novel idea. Certainly I have never heard anyone accuse Sanatana Goswami of being anything less then a foundational acarya of Gaudiya siddhanta. Yet his monumental work on the essence of all vedic teachings and knowledge, according to you, leaves out the raison d'etre, the very reason that the Gaudiya Sampradaya exists, its purpose for existing was not included in a book that was meant to teach the essence of all vedic knowledge.

I am sorry, but I cannot accept your teachings on this matter. This was my whole point. That there are some people who claim that manjari bhava is the sole purpose of Gaudiya teachings.Prabhupada never taught this concept, Sanatana Goswami never taught this concept. Those that do teach this concept are concocting a false dichotomy. They are trying to create a new teaching (relatively), and they present it as the "authentic" true tradition. They then usually will criticize Prabhupada for not stressing manjari bhava.

When debating these people, I usually (always, so far) find out that they have more misunderstandings about Gaudiya siddhanta as well. For instance some devotees who champion manjari bhava, insist that Radha and Her expansions are not Visnu Tattva, that She and they (Laksmi et al) are not Svamsa expansions of God. Others make similar types of miscalculations concerning the ontological position of Radha and Her expansions. What they also all have in common, is the insistence on presenting manjari bhava as the purpose of the Gaudiya Sampradaya, and criticism of Srila Prabhupada for not doing so as well.

October 11, 2004

Perhaps you should accept some guidance from a siksa guru and read Srila Prabhupada's books under his guidance. Then you might be able to understand that Srila Prabhupada is also a Rupanuga Vaisnava,otherwise not!!! You've read Srila Sanatana Gosvami and misunderstood what he said about who the greatest recipients of Krsna's mercy actually are. Unless you are prepared to study guaudiya philosophy with the assistance of another acarya of Srila Prabhupada's stature and realization you will always value your own intellect and spurious conclusions above and beyond actual gaudiya siddhanta. As you wish.

Puru_Das · October 11, 2004

Rather than going tit for tat about what Srila Prabhupada taught with regard to manjari bhava, better to read something he actually wrote about the matter:

" Ramananda Raya then began to relate the confidential and transcendental activities of Radha and Krsna. These activities cannot be understood in the emotional relationship with the Supreme Lord as master and servant, friend and friend or parent and son. This confidential subject matter can be understood only in the association of the damsels of Vraja, for the confidential activities have arisen from the feelings and emotions of those damsels. Without the association of the damsels of Vraja, one cannot nourish or cherish such transcendental understanding. In other words, these confidential pastimes of Radha and Krsna have expanded through the mercy of the damsels. Without their mercy, they cannot be understood. One has to follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja in order to understand.

When one is actually situated in that understanding, he becomes eligible to enter into the confidential pastimes of Radha and Krsna. There is no alternative to understand Their confidential pastimes. This is confirmed in Govinda-lilamrta (10.17): "Although manifest, happy, expanded and unlimited, the emotional exchanges between Radha and Krsna can only be understood by the damsels of Vraja or by their followers." Just as no one can understand the expansion of the spiritual energy of the Supreme Lord without His causeless mercy, no one can understand the transcendental sex life between Radha and Krsna without following in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja. The personal associates of Radharani are called sakhis, and Her near assistants are called manjaris. It is very difficult to express their dealings with Krsna because they have no desire to mix with Krsna or to enjoy Him personally. Rather, they are always ready to help Radharani associate with Krsna. Their affection for Krsna and Radharani is so pure that they are simply satisfied when Radha and Krsna are together. Indeed, their transcendental pleasure is in seeing Radha and Krsna united. The actual form of Radharani is just like a creeper embracing the tree of Krsna, and the damsels of Vraja, the associates of Radharani, are just like the leaves and flowers of that creeper. When a creeper embraces a tree, the leaves and flowers as well as the creeper automatically embrace it. Govinda-lilamrta (10.16) confirms that Radharani is the expansion of the pleasure potency of Krsna and is compared with a creeper, and Her associates, the damsels of Vraja, are compared to the flowers and leaves of that creeper. When Radharani and Krsna enjoy Themselves, the damsels of Vraja relish the pleasure more than Radharani Herself.

Although the associates of Radharani do not expect any personal attention from Krsna, Radharani is so pleased with them that She arranges individual meetings between Krsna and the damsels of Vraja. Indeed, Radharani tries to combine or unite Her associates with Krsna by many transcendental maneuvers, and She takes more pleasure in these meetings than in Her own meetings with Him. When Krsna sees that both Radharani and Her associates are pleased by His association, He becomes more satisfied. Such association and loving reciprocation have nothing to do with material lust, although it resembles the material union between man and woman. It is only because that similarity is there that such reciprocation is sometimes called, in transcendental language, transcendental lust. As explained in Gautamiya-tantra (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.285): "Lust means attachment to one's personal sense gratification. But as far as Radharani and Her associates are concerned, they did not desire personal sense gratification. They only wanted to satisfy Krsna." This is further confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.31.19) in one of the speeches of the gopis:

yat te sujata-caranamburuham stanesu

bhitah sanaih priya dadhimahi karkasesu

tenatavim atasi tad vyathate na kim svit

kurpadibhir bhramati dhir bhavad-ayusam nah

"My dear friend Krsna, You are now roaming in the forest with Your bare feet, which You sometimes keep on our breasts. When Your feet are on our breasts, we think that our breasts are too hard for Your soft feet. Now You are wandering in the forest and walking over stones, and we do not know how You are feeling. Since You are our life and soul, the displeasure You undergo in traveling over rough stones is giving us great distress." Such feelings expressed by the damsels of Vraja constitute the highest Krsna conscious emotions. Anyone who actually becomes captivated by Krsna consciousness approaches this level of the gopis. There are sixty-four categories of devotional service by performance of which one can rise to the gopis' stage of unconditional devotion. Affection for Krsna on the level of the gopis is called raganuga, spontaneous love. When one enters into a spontaneous loving affair with Krsna, there is no need to follow the Vedic rules and regulations.

There are various kinds of personal devotees of Lord Krsna in the transcendental abode. For example, there are servants of Krsna like Raktaka and Patraka and friends of Krsna just like Sridama and Sudama. There are also parents of Krsna, just like Nanda and Yasoda, who are also engaged in the service of Krsna according to their respective transcendental emotions. One who desires to enter into the supreme abode of Krsna can take shelter of one of such transcendental servitors. Then, through the execution of loving service, one can attain transcendental affection for Krsna. In other words, the devotee in this material world who executes loving service in pursuance of the activities of those eternal associates with Krsna also attains the same post when he is perfected.

The sages mentioned in the Upanisads and in sruti also desire the post of the gopis, and they also follow in the footsteps of the gopis in order to attain that highest goal of life. This is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.87.23) when it is said that the sages practice pranayama (trance) by controlling the breathing process, mind and senses through the mystic yoga practice. Thus they try to merge into the Supreme Brahman. This same goal is attained by atheists who deny the existence of God. If such atheists are killed by an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they also merge into the Brahman existence of the Supreme Lord. However, when the damsels of Vrndavana worship Sri Krsna, it is as though they have been bitten by a snake, for Krsna's body is compared with the body of a snake. A snake's body is never straight; it is always curling. Similarly, Krsna often stands in a three curved posture, and He has bitten the gopis with transcendental love. The gopis are certainly better situated than all mystic yogis and others who desire to merge into the Supreme Brahman. The sages of Dandakaranya also follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja in order to attain a similar position. One cannot attain that position simply by following the regulative principles. Rather, one must seriously follow the principles of the gopis. This is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.9.21) wherein it is stated that Lord Sri Krsna, the son of Srimati Yasoda, is not easily available to those following the principles of mental speculation but is easily available to all kinds of living beings who follow the path of devotional service.

There are many pseudo-devotees, claiming to belong to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sect, who artificially dress themselves as the damsels of Vraja, and this is not approved by advanced spiritualists or advanced students of devotional service. Such people dress the outward material body because they foolishly confuse the body with the soul. They are mistaken when they think that the spiritual bodies of Krsna, Radharani and Their associates, the damsels of Vraja, are composed of material nature. One should know perfectly well that all such manifestations are expansions of eternal bliss and knowledge in the transcendental world. They have nothing to do with these material bodies; thus the bodies, dresses, decorations and activities of the damsels of Vrndavana are not of this material cosmic manifestation. The damsels of Vrndavana are not a subject for the attraction of those in the material world; they are transcendental attractions for the all-attractive Krsna. Because the Lord is all-attractive, He is called Krsna, but the damsels of Vrndavana are attractive even to Krsna. Therefore they are not of this material world.

If one wrongly thinks that the material body is as perfect as the spiritual body and begins to imitate the damsels of Vrndavana, he becomes infested with the Mayavadi impersonal philosophy. The impersonalists recommend a process of aham grahopasana by which one worships his own body as the Supreme. Thinking in this way, such pseudo-transcendentalists dress themselves as the damsels of Vraja. Such activities are not acceptable in devotional service. Even Srila Jiva Gosvami, the most authoritative acarya in the Gaudiya sampradaya, has condemned these imitators. The process of transcendental realization is to follow in the footsteps of the associates of the Supreme Lord; therefore if one thinks himself to be a direct associate of the Supreme Lord, he is condemned. According to authorized Vaisnava principles, one should follow a particular devotee, and not think of himself as Krsna's associate.

In this way Ramananda Raya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In Caitanya-caritamrta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities and not imitate the dress of the associates of Krsna. One should also always meditate upon the affairs between Radha and Krsna in the transcendental world. One should think of Radha and Krsna twenty-four hours a day and eternally engage in Their service. One need not externally change his dress. By following the mood of the associates and friends of Radharani, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage and be transferred to Goloka Vrndavana, the transcendental abode of Krsna.

The mood of the gopis' emotional pursuit is called siddha-deha. This word indicates the pure spiritual body which is beyond the senses, mind and intelligence. Siddha-deha is the purified soul who is just suitable to serve the Supreme Lord. No one can serve the Supreme Lord as His associate without being situated in his pure spiritual identity. That identity is completely free from all material contamination. As stated in Bhagavad-gita, a materially contaminated person transmigrates to another material body by material consciousness. At the time of death he thinks materially and is therefore transferred into another material body. Similarly, when one is situated in his pure spiritual identity and thinks of the spiritual loving service rendered to the Supreme Lord, he is transferred to the spiritual kingdom to enter into the association of Krsna. In other words, by attaining one's spiritual identity and thinking of Krsna's associates, one can become qualified to transfer to the spiritual kingdom. No one can contemplate or think of the activities of the spiritual kingdom without being situated in his pure, spiritual identity (siddha). Thus Ramananda Raya said that without attaining siddha-deha, one can neither become an associate of the damsels nor render service directly to the Personality of Godhead, Krsna, and His eternal consort Radharani. In this regard, Ramananda quoted Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.47.60):

nayam sriyo 'nga u nitantarateh prasadah

svar-yositam nalina-gandha-rucam kuto 'nyah

rasotsave 'sya bhujadanda-grhita-kantha-

labdhasisam ya udagad vraja-vallavinam

"Neither the goddess of fortune, Laksmi, nor even the damsels of the heavenly kingdom can attain the facilities of the damsels of Vrajabhumi--and what to speak of others."

Lord Caitanya was very satisfied to hear these statements from Ramananda Raya, and He embraced him. Then both of them began to cry in the ecstasy of transcendental realization. Thus the Lord and Ramananda Raya discussed the transcendental pastimes of Radha and Krsna throughout the night, and in the morning they separated. Ramananda left to go to his place, and the Lord went to take His bath.

At the time of separation, Ramananda fell at the feet of Lord Caitanya and prayed: "My dear Lord, You have come just to deliver me from this mire of nescience. Therefore I request that You remain here for at least ten days to purify my mind of this material contamination. There is no one else who can deliver such transcendental love of God."

"I have come to you to purify Myself by hearing from you the transcendental pastimes of Radha and Krsna," the Lord replied. "I am so fortunate, for you are the only teacher of such transcendental pastimes. I can find no one else in the world who can realize the transcendental loving reciprocation between Radha and Krsna. You are asking Me to stay here for ten days, but I feel like remaining with you for the rest of My life. Please come to Jagannatha Puri, My headquarters, and we will remain together for the rest of our lives. Thus I can pass My remaining days in understanding Krsna and Radha by your association."

Sriman Ramananda Raya came again to see the Lord the next evening, and there were further discourses on this transcendental subject matter.

"What is the highest standard of education?" Lord Caitanya began His inquiry, and Ramananda Raya immediately replied that the highest standard of education is knowledge of the science of Krsna. The standard of material education is sense gratification, but the highest standard of spiritual education is knowledge of the science of Krsna. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.29.50) it is stated that that work which pleases the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the highest work, and that science or knowledge which places one in full Krsna consciousness is the highest knowledge. Similarly, Prahlada Maharaja, while instructing his childhood friends at school, also stated that hearing of the Lord, chanting, remembering, worshiping, praying, serving, making friends with Krsna, and offering everything to Him constituted the highest spiritual knowledge.

"And what is the greatest reputation one can have?" Lord Caitanya asked Ramananda Raya, and Ramananda immediately replied that a person reputed to be Krsna conscious should be considered the most famous man in the world.

Chapter 31

Teachings of Lord Caitanya

October 11, 2004

To the first guest:

What ? Now you have decided I need to become the disciple of someone who can explain my misunderstanding ?

Hey, I got an idea...why don't you enlighten me ? Since you seem sure that I made some mistake, please instruct me on your conclusive points...I'm all ears.

To Puru: do you know what obfuscation means ?

If your going to quote Prabhupada to show my mistaake, how about showing where he agrees with you and Tirtha Swami. Show where he says the Gaudiya sampradaya's reason for existence is to teach manjari bhava.

Just quoting random stuff about manjari bhava has nothing to do with my point. I agree that manjari is included within gaudiya teachings, but my point is: it is not exclusively taught as the goal for everyone, and as the sole purpose of the gaudiya sampradaya. Can you show where Prabhupada agrees with yours and Tirtha Swamis representation of the Gaudiya sampradaya ?

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