Death for bhakti

[anadi 0]

In churchianism there is also some kind of dikSa. This is called the baptising ceremony, but is completly twisted.

Some ideas

-like giving a name (which should be a transcendental name)

- throubgh baptising the sins are distroyed

 

 

divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saNKzayam

tasmat dikzeti sA proktA diSikais tatttva kovidaiH

 

That which bestow transcendental knowledge -divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt

and destroys sins, the seed of sins and destroys avidyA to the root is called dikSa by tattva learned authourities

 

In churchianism they have no idea about the power of the transcendental sound uttered by the pure devotee:

 

The guru's spiritual mood of service

THE INTERNAL MOOD OF SERVICE to Sri Radhika and Krsna

is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of MANTRA (yo mantra sa guruh sAkSat yo guru sa harih svayam ) ."

 

The internal mood of service is transcendental, why?

Because bhakti is a function of the svarupa shakti, not of the material senses.

And to convey the transcendental (bhakti) you need the transcendental carrier which is the transcendental sound MANTRA, which can be vibrated by the transcendental person.

 

Everything is given in seed from within the mantra.

 

In normal case if one does not receive the transcendental seed of bhakti seva vasana, the desire to serve the divine couple (as in our gaudya vaisnava line), how can one make his devotional creeper (bhakti lata) grow?

 

As we see dikSa is not only formality, when dikSa is performed by the transcendental guru personally.

Why personally? Because guru is the manifestation of Sri Hari.

“Guru is not an ordinary person. Guru is transcendental".

 

No conditioned person can give the transcendental mantras,

just because one acts in the name of a realized person, as “HarikeS Svami” used to say

“I give you sannyasa in the name of Srila Prabhaupada”. What is this? This is cheating, kuti-nati (deceitful behaviour).

 

The transcendental mantras can be uttered only by the tattva darSi,

the persons that realized the Absolut Truth.

The transcendental mantras can be received only from the mouth

of the pure devotees, by their very presence.

 

[Guest guest]

BTW, i have many gurus, all representatives of Sri Sesa Balarama, chaitya guru. Three main gurus are.

 

1. those who introduce one to Krsna consciousness. I cannot list all those who cared to do such a wonderful thing with me.

 

2. those who teach the science of krsna consciousness. Again, I have many of these, some have acted as diksa gurus to others, but they are referred by me as siksa guru. I have consistantly recognized their right and responsibility to initiate those who approach them, and have never accepted the philosophy referred to as rtvik.

 

3. I was initiated by Srila Prabhupada in 1973. The relationship is based not only my accepting Him, but the reciprocal accepting of me as lowly disciple. This reciprocation is necessary, and as mentioned, I have vigorously opposed any ideas of initiation where the reciprocal exchange does not take place.

 

Hare Krsna. PS It is a very poor debating tactic to place opponents in camps, your referring to those who see through your arrogance as rtviks shows only one thing. That you have no convictions, thus are unable to convince others. This is good advice, take it. Present the positive points you make about the verse you cite, and refrain from anger-produced denigrating of just about everyone writing here.

 

ys mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Also, you insult initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada by your claiming that consulting his books is not consulting guru. He has told his initiated disciples to do this, and there is no difference between acting on the instruction of guru, and guru.

 

I, too, am concerned that some may say that all you need is books, and confuse shastra with guru, but like I said in a previous post, you dont really know who is reading here, and those initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada are not to search for another diksa guru, as many have done, due to faithlessness in the instruction of Srila Prabhupada.

 

mahak

[anadi 0]

 

The guru and the disciple must be bonafide, this is guru tattwa.

 

 

This is nice, and essential but is by far not at all the encompasing guru-tattva.

And to say that guru tattva (literaly the truth about guru)refers to the quality of the disciple is like saying krishna tattva refers to radha tattva or shakti tattva.

In a way for an advanced devotee as you are there is no difference, As for the neophytes as me Srila Jiva Gosvami and Srila Rupa Gosvami wrote all this truth, so that I can distinguish what is the truth about bhakti, guru, krishna, ...all this tattvas.

 

I don't write more, because slokas are too pompous for you.

Slokas are very important for neophytes.

And I am one of them.

 

all glories to sri guru and gaura

[anadi 0]

 

Also, you insult initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada by your claiming that consulting his books is not consulting guru.

 

 

 

You still haven't got the point.

 

zikSa guru is one that out of many competent Sravana gurus who gives instructions on bhajana which is specifically suitable to the bhava of his disciple.

 

This is not given through books.

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami says:

 

atha Sravana guru bhajana Sikza guroh

prayakam ekatvam iti tathaivAha

 

from Bhakti Sandarbha. Ann.206

which says that

the Sravana and bhajana Sikza guru are usually the same.

 

3. DikSa guru (mantra guru) is one who

- gives a mantra for worshiping according the rules of the scriptures

- should posses all symptoms of a mahat puruSa sad guru

- has direct experience and realization of bhagavan

- is well conversant in the conclusions of the Sastra

- is expert in expounding the conclusions of the acaryas

 

There is only one dikSa guru.

Normally the dikSa guru is also the bhajana Sikza guru. If not, one should accept a sad Sikza guru.

 

Have you taken dikSa from Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami?

 

divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saNKzayam

 

What is the meaning: bestow transcendental knowledge -divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt ?

 

this divya jJna refers to sambhanda jJna, knowledge of one's relation with the deities of his mantras.

 

Do you have knowledge about your sambhanda jnana? This comes not from the books.

 

[Guest guest]

Perhaps slokas are important, if taken in context (remember, the devil uses the bible to prove his points, but maybe that should be discussed on the more occidental topic=;-].

 

However, confidential discussion is how devotees should speak. Speak from the heart, and Guru WILL come thru, loud and clear. We certainly use shastra to prove to those who controvert our realizations, but it is rather dry to throw quotes incessantly at each other.

 

The third calss (kanistha) is a position one should try to rise above, and second class (clearing) kicks in upon initiation from a bonafide spiritual master. (By the was, this is covered by sloka, but Ill just say its from the nectar of instruction, hoping the reader will read the whole book trying to find it. Also from NoI is good advice on how devotees should d3eal with each other.

 

Neophytes should be respected as very rare persons, initiated disciples of a bonafide disciple should be respected with humble obiesancies. First class devotees, those who follow the principles of guru shastra and sadhu, and are krsna conscious, should be heard from and served with rapt attention.

 

Slokas are not pompous, folks who throw them around without even understanding them are the epitome of third class pompousity. Radha has no meaning aloof from krsna, and Srila Prabhupada says pictures of krsna alone are not bonafide, so my insistance on disciple being absolutely included in the TRUTH ABOUT GURU is not a pretentious statement, in fact, it is rather rudimentary to this discussion.

 

If you are shining the light on your guru, what is the value if a disciple cannot be canvassed by your effort. None at all. Just a holy man on a photo that folks may think is a cool dude. It is nopt until someone decides to enter into a guru-disciple relationship that the Rajavidya is passed on.

 

Do we wonder, or do we commit. Lets have a civil discussion on another topic line about reciprocal commitment between guru and disciple, it would be a better venue that your silly "death of bhakti" title, something that is impossible, unless you think you are the recipient of bhakti.

 

Haribol, ys, mahak

[Guest guest]

anadi states:

 

There is only one dikSa guru.

 

For a disciple, this is a fact. However, there is a tendency for all those hypocrites (meaning those who devise principles for others to follow) to think this means that the entire universe can only hold one diksa. I have heard this, and it is not correct. Each of the goswamis had disciples, Lord Nityananda and Lord Chaitanya had disciples, and Lord Brahma and Narada and Vyasadeva are still very much present. I would hope that the discerning student of this science would refrain fr5om the evil sectarianism that this idea may create.

 

But yes, when a disciple experiances the disappearance of His guru-maharaja, there is no factual disappearance, The disciple does not lose vapu and replace it with vani. The Spiritual master resides, factually, in the heart of the disciple, and, as Sriula Prabhupada affirms, his personal consu7ltation does not end with disappearance, just as Srila Bhaktisiddhantas consultation with Srila Prabhupada continued even while he was acting as diksa for others.

 

If a siksa guru's diksa guru is present, he will not act as diksa, nor will he ever attempt to give diksa to a disciple who had previously taken diksa initiation from the siksa. However, if a siksa guru, whose guru has left this plane, decides to give diksa, this is proper, and affirmed by Srila Prabhupada often to his disciples. The only impropriety is that which is mentioned, never did Srila Prabhupad prohibit his disciples from ever initiating their own disciples if so directed by Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist 1]

 

Do you have knowledge about your sambhanda jnana? This comes not from the books.

 

 

Well it refers to the relationship between the living entity ,God and His energies like the universe. I have learned a little but am still working on it. Afterall I still conceive of myself as an owner of things so obviously I haven't learned anything too deeply.

 

But you must be talking about something else because what little I have learned has come from Prabhupada's books.

 

Please explain.

 

 

[gHari 0]

Isn't it all dependent upon accumulated sukriti for sadhu sanga? Words for the head - no we need sukriti for the heart. Can we be that merciful?

 

[Guest guest]

Do you have knowledge about your sambhanda jnana? This comes not from the books.

 

mahak: Also, except in most intimate cases, such things are not openly discussed. A spiritual master will sometimes divulge such information to a disciple, and even sometimes, a spiritual master and an advanced disciple will share, so much so that the awe and reverence a disciple will naturally have for guru changes to friendship. (What we have here, not to change the topic, is the graduation from third class devotee to the second class stage, real initiation, that which internally connects the disciple to the sampradaya of guru. Lord Jesus briefly hints at this by referring to He Who Sent Him as abbah, Supreme Friend.)

 

Srila Bhaktivinode sings of his swarupa in his Kabe Habe bolo se din amare (the long version). Wonderful things, such as the color of his skin, mood of gopi bhava, etc. But, these things are very intimate, and if a disciple is in a clearing stage because he accepts INTERNAL initiation from a bonafide spiritual master, and has visions of swarupa as one sees things through clearing smoke, such things are not blurted out. No one's business, who is not involved, thus the extreme danger exists when one interferes in the relationship between guru and disciple.

 

So you ask a question, and it is responded to.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

[anadi 0]

 

Perhaps slokas are important, if taken in context (remember, the devil uses the bible to prove his points, but maybe that should be discussed on the more occidental topic=;-].

 

 

In Jaiva Dharma Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, which is gaura shakti svarupa, says in a quite moderate tone that his opinion is that such a person as “the devil” or “satan” does not exist.

 

We should try to free oneself from the thoughts of a book which is an eclectic fraudulent work of people concerned more on imposing a concocted doctrine about the Absolut Truth, and bhakti, and as in the above statement tried to intimidate to ones who will see something else in the words of that book as their own concocted dogmas, and as such they must be “the devil”.

 

 

Goräcända: Isvara is one without a second, and He has no rival.

Everything in this world is created by Him and is under His control.

Therefore, He can be satisfied with any object when it is used in

His worship. There is no object in this world one can worship that

can arouse His malice, for He is all-auspicious. Even if a person

such as Satan exists, he is no more than a special jiva under the

control of God, and has no power to do anything that is opposed

to God’s will. However, in my opinion, it is not possible for such a

monstrous living entity to exist.

(Jaiva Dharma , Ch.11 Nitya Dharma & Idolatry)

 

[Guest guest]

Seems like im wasting words here if you think i was talking asbout a lucifer or a satan. What I was talking about is that any fool can use scripture to verify the foolishness. Why pick an insignificant aside when so much was spoken of.

 

mahak

[anadi 0]

The two points highlighted here are significant:

The one who reads sastra by his own, and quotes it to prove his own point of view, or the point of view of some groups who run astray from the meaning of it, making new doctrines which are against the meaning as it was delineated by previous acaryas, these people posses two characteristic:

1. they have a demonic nature (not “the devil”), which means they are rascals

As you previously said:

“Perhaps slokas are important, if taken in context remember, the devil uses the bible to prove his points “ (although you are against in my using the slokas in proving the points my Gurudeva and the previous acaryas delineated, the matter of fact you just stress once again my point in using the sastra without being under the guidance of the realized sat guru)

2. they are fools

( as you said: “What I was talking about is that any fool can use scripture to verify the foolishness.”

But that they have a demonic nature, not that they are the devil, this is also true.

[anadi 0]

"Do you have knowledge about your sambhanda jnana?"

 

Knowledge about one's sambhanda jnana is imparted in the heart of the disciple by guru, and this entails the personal relation of the disciple with the Deity of his mantra. This might come shortly prior to the stage of ruci, when the disciple is already in the nisthita bhajan.

 

See Madhurya Kadambini

 

Cloudbank of Nectar

 

CHAPTER 4

 

Fourth Shower of Nectar

 

Previously, in the discussion of the two types of bhajana kriya, anishthita and nishthita, six types of the anishthita bhajana kriya were described. Without describing nishthita bhajana kriya, anartha nivritti was discussed. Because it says in Shrimad Bhagavatam:

 

SRNvatam sva-kathAM kRSNaH punya-SravaNa-kIrtanaH

hRdy antaH stho hy abhadrANi vidhunoti suhRt satam

 

naSTa-prAyeSv abhadreZu nityaM bhagavata-sevayA

bhagavaty uttama-Sloke bhaktir bhavati naiSThikI

 

Lord Krishna, who is affectionate to His devotees and situated in their hearts, destroys all inauspicious elements of those who hear topics about the Lord. When the inauspicious elements have been generally destroyed by devotional service, steady devotion to the Lord appears. (SB:1.2.17-18 ) The first verse (SRnvatam sva-kathaH...) refers to the stage of anishthita or unsteady bhakti, for naistiki bhakti or nishthita bhakti makes its appearance later in the second verse. Abhadrani vidhunoti (destruction of inauspicious elements) which appears between these two stages, refers to the stage of anartha nivritti. The words nasta-prayesv abhadresu (inauspiciousness is almost destroyed) means at the stage of nishtha, only a small portion of anarthas remains. Thus, The proper order according to Shrimad Bhagavatam is bhajana kriya, anartha nivritti, nishtha. Therefore in its proper place, nishthita bhakti will be discussed now.

 

Nishtha means to be endowed with the quality of steadiness, or non-movement (naishchalyam). Though a person tries for steadiness every day,

while the anarthas are still present, he will not attain steadiness.

This is due to these five persistent obstacles:

laya (sleep),

vikshepa (distraction),

apratipatti (indifference or disinterest in spiritual topics),

kashaya (tendency toward bad habits) and

rasasvada (taste for material enjoyment).

 

After the stage of anartha nivritti, when these obstacles are almost completely destroyed, one achieves steadiness. Thus, the symptom of nishtha is the absence of the above mentioned obstacles.

 

[Guest guest]

"Purport" = sruti now?

[anadi 0]

 

the gopis didn't have a guru yet they are the best of all devotees - pure and utter love for Krsna.

 

 

Of course you referred to sadhana siddha gopis.

 

And they don’t go to mangala arati to sing

mangala sri guru gaura mangala murati / mangala si Radha Krishna yugala piriti

 

And they don’t chant maha mantra as Sri Gauranga taught his nija jana.

 

Why? Maybe you know the answer, I mean you know how they attaind the body of a gopi in Radha-Krishna prakat lila.

[vanamali 1]

When the gopis came to meet Krishna, He told them:

-----------

shravaNAt darshanAt dhyAnAt mayi bhAvo’nukIrtanAt /

na tathA sannikarshheNa pratiyAta tato gRhAn // meaning,

 

“Transcendental love for Me arises by the devotional

processes of hearing about Me, seeing My Deity form,

meditating on Me and faithfully chanting My glories. The

same result is not achieved by mere physical proximity. So

please go back to your homes”.

 

--------

 

But did that stop them?

[Guest guest]

Dear Anadi,

 

Since Madhurya Kadambini explains the Adau zraddhA verse, perhaps you could tell me where exactly in that book Visvanath says that one should start thinking about one's svarupa? Is it at ruchi, or Asakti, or niSThA?

 

Jagat

[Guest guest]

Ol friend, hope you are well. My point in all this is that some things are not discussed in public, what do you think of this. Your imput is valued, hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

"One should always remember that a person

who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated

is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. "

 

This thing would have some significance if it came in an envelope stamped "Goloka Post Office".

[Guest guest]

Haridas Thakur could not become initiated properly, however, his Guru was Lord Chaitanya. He is caretaker of the Holy name.

 

The ChCh Adi 1-35 is cited by all camps, and all camps do not present the entire purport, just the sections they want. This is why I dont cite shastra, because the entire message should be read, in context. This purport by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (not BVS) is very important. It does not authorize eccliastic religion of either side of a particular bickering consciousness going on, nor does it allow for someone to accept a guru just because a person has a lot of followers and a good advertizing campaign. It does affirm that when ones Guru leaves, the instructions do not, that they are one and the same. And this purport does affirm that if one cannot come into association with a bonafide spiritual master, the teachings of a True Acarya will suffice.

 

Alkso one should reme3mber that shastra is clear that an uttama adhikari is not necessarily bound by the strictures of shastra (sadhana bhakti). The gopis have no need of guru for they are in their constitutional, original position. They have nothing to learn from a guru because4 they have spontaneous love for Krsna.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[anadi 0]

Dear Jagat prabhu, dandavat pranama

 

The answer might be found in Jaiva Dharma,

Paramahamsa Babaji revealed Sanyasi Thakura his siddha deha just a few days previously to ruchi (that means Sanyasi Thakura was still in nistha).

 

"A few days after residing in the kuïja, SannyAsI ThAkura became

anxious to inquire about spiritual truths from ParamahaNsa

BAbAjI. By this time, the sannyAsI had adopted all the ways of a

VaiSNava, except for his outer dress. During his previous training,

SannyAsI ThAkura had developed qualities such as full control

over his mind and senses, and had become firmly established

in the conception of the non-dual, all-pervading Absolute

(brahma-niSThA). In addition, he had now acquired staunch faith

in the transcendental pastimes of Parabrahma Sri KRSNa, and had

become deeply humble."

 

This means Sanyasi Thakura was in nistha.

 

Suddenly Paramahamsa BAbAjI said to him, "O sakhI, silence

KakkhaTI (Srimaté RAdhikA's monkey) at once, otherwise she will

rouse RAdhA-Govinda from Their sleep of divine pleasure; then

LalitA-sakhI will become distressed, and will rebuke me. Look there!

AnaNga MaNjarI is signaling for you to do this. You are RamaNa

MaNjarI and this is your designated service. Be attentive in this

regard."

 

At the end of the next chapter we find the revelation:

"SannyAsI ThAkura was deeply immersed in the nectar of BAbAjI

MahArAja's instructions, and he began to dance as he chanted Sri kRSNa-

nAma: "Hare kRSNa, Hare kRSNa, kRSNa kRSNa, Hare Hare /

Hare RAma, Hare RAma, RAma RAma, Hare Hare".On that day, he

experienced ruci, a natural taste, for hari-nAma."

 

The text from Madhurya Kadambini, is there only to show that in nistha does not mean that all the anarthas are away, but the most disturbing ones in performing Radha-Krishna bhajana.

[anadi 0]

What is the meaning of vapu?

What is the meaning of association with sadhu?

What is the meaning of diksa mantra?

What is the meaning of Bhagavatam?

 

If the path is transcendental why do you limit it by physical association?

 

Answer by Srila Bhaktivedanta Aranya Maharaja in Vraja Mandala Parikrama 2001:

Because it is transcendental therefore any transcendetal thing, comes from transcendental source;

like harinama, diksa mantras are transcendental hari katha is transcendental, srimad bhagavatam is transcendental;

so transcendental things come from transcendental source.

Everything in THIS world is material! So, where it will come from?

Only when any realized person descende in this world and is carying bhakti-shakti with them, than you can receive what is transcendental.

 

When a pure devotee speaks, mixed within his voice are the safron particle of the lotus feet of Krsna, says Srimad Bhagavatam;

so,

sound has 4 dimensions:

vaikari, madya, para, pashianti.

First dimension is the outer portion of the sound, what you speak, what you hear, and what is going in your tape recorder.

Next two levels are on the subtle platform of the mind and intelligence.

The fourth level is called shabda-brahma and goes from soul to soul."

 

The transcendental sound can be uttered by the realized soul

and imbibe the audiance with seva vasana

(the seed of the desire to serve the DIVINE COUPLE- if the one that utters the sound is a RUPA-ANUGA.)

 

Only a sat guru (the one that have seen Krsna face to face) can give the transcendetal sound.

He is the only one who can give real initiation through the transcendental sound in Hari-nama and diksa (Gopala-mantra, Kama-gayatri-mantra, Brahma Gayatri-mantra...) but

bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta sangena parijayate

SAT-SANGA prapyate pumbhih SUKRITI purva sancite

 

The inclination for bhakti is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord

And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA) can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over many life times.

(Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)