Death for bhakti

[anadi 0]

 

Consulting guru is done every time we read a Prabhupada purport.

 

 

Is there any scriptural evidence for this speculation?

No, never!

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada says himself:

One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

Does he say try to find the books of a genuinely qualified spiritual master?

No. He says, try to find the spiritual master.

 

[anadi 0]

One may continue with the speculation, and say:

He is living in his books.

 

Do you know the opinion of Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja, his most dear and "special"(not like the "others") disciple, in this connection?

If not, I would be glad to share it with you.

[theist 1]

No thanks. I have wasted enough time on this already. Pray to the Lord in the heart and then accept Him where He chooses to reveal Himself to you.

 

Find another windmill to joust with.

[anadi 0]

 

Pray to the Lord in the heart and then accept Him where He chooses to reveal Himself to you.

 

 

 

This is not an advice from a bhakta, for a bhakta.

this the advice of a theist person who pose as a bhakta, trying at his level best, to distroy bhakti, from within.

 

You should pray for the mercy of guru and vaisnavas, and see them as your deva and your atma.

How do you pray?

By serving them, and than you can ask question...not before (tad vidhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya), and by their mercy you may get some realization.

 

Krishna says:

ye me bhakta janah partha / na me bhaktas ca te janah

mad bhaktanam ca ye bhakta / mama bhaktastu te narah

 

"Those who claim to be my devotees, really are not my devotees. Those who are the devotees of my devotees, are my devotees."

From Adi Purana (BRS 1.2.218)

[Guest guest]

If you got a gripe, air it, but it is obvious you are trying to make useless arguement here.

 

Death of bhakti means to make offense to a faultless person. Nothing kills bhakti deader than trampling on the innocent with only motive to make show of erudition. Now what do you want to talk about, because both myself and theist have always recommended approaching advanced vaisnavas, submitting to their teachings, and asking pertainent questions.

 

Are you trolling for rtviks or something?

 

Haribol, mahaksadasa

[anadi 0]

Haribol Mahak,

 

Someone who emphasizes in every post that

"disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially" wants most prbably to institute the exception as a rule, and by this he is trying to distroy bahkti, namely the backbone of bhakti:

1. guru padashraya

2. guru diksha shiksha adi

Guru is the backbone of bhakti. First ist guru, namely service to guru and vaisnava. Guru must accept you; not like ritvik Ekalvia, who made a murti of his living guru, and worship that murti. And this ritvik are praising now the so called "christianity", this fraud propagated in the name of love and Jesus.

 

These are the people who like to support their speculation, looking in some letters that a saintly person wrote to some of his disciples.

When the bible was assembled, the paulinist, took 13 Paulus letters to make, with other of 4 gospels, that what they called "the new testament". Than they took some text of the mosaic religion, and through the method called "the pious fraud" they made "the old testament". And this was sastra?

Was this sastra made by the holy ghost as they claim, and as some of us say that this is a scripture for a certain type of faith.

This is not a scripture, but a fraud, as you at least aknowledged in the other thread on the amount of 90%.

 

The same tendency I see it here. Another kind of pavelinism and researching of letters.

 

And you spoke about love. To tolerate the evil of propagating apasiddhanta is not love.

[anadi 0]

 

Nothing kills bhakti deader than trampling on the innocent with only motive to make show of erudition.

 

 

Look at the innocence of theist, the personification of the death of bhakti:

 

"Consulting guru is done every time <font color="blue"> we read </font color> a Prabhupada purport."

This is his understanding of

1. guru padashraya

2. guru diksha shiksha adi

and he is not alone, and he knows that, that is why he says we read!

 

No, he is not the "innocent", to whom you could preach something, he reads sastra in the company of ... others like him, and go to preach that one does not need a guru, than parampara does not mean to take diksa... . One does not go to preach untile he attains bhava... but one can assist the preaching of his guru devatatma, disksa and siksha guru and yuta! Does one know in which yuta he is?

Does one have a lillte glimpse of his sambhanda?

Does one chant with sambhanda?

 

Am I trampling this "innocence" that you praise, which is only the death of bhakti?

 

[theist 1]

This poor rabid anadi will never here what I have said a thousand times but someone else will. To them I speak.

 

I have NEVER said one doesn't need guru. Without guru from Brahma on there would be no knowledge of transcendence to even discuss.

 

What I do say is the way to find guru, is not by listening to the votes of some ecclesiastical body, nor drawing straws or flipping coins.

 

That knowledge of who is your guru is directed to us from Supersoul. This is basic Bhagavad gita. So I am saying that one should consult Supersoul and pray to be directed by Him to the one He knows will directyou straight to Him. Krsna knows who His real devotee is. We can't. We are helpless in this matter and all we can hope to do is pray to Him with sincerity.

 

Want to cheated? He will arrange it.

 

Want the real thing? He will arrange it.

 

He is also troubled because I accept siksa as being the essential thing in a teaching line. I accept Prabhupada as existing within his purports and instructions. He apparently sees Prabhupada as unreachable, I don't.

 

I have no problem,no would it be my place to anyway, if Supersoul directs a soul to another guru other than Srila Prabhupada. That's his business and between himself, God and guru.

 

I also have no problem accepting that several bone fide teachers may be teaching contemporaily to each other, and krsna may send different souls to each of them to learn from and serve.

 

One of the conclusions of the Vaisnava's that I appreciate is the acknowledgement of variety within spiritual oneness.

 

The fanatic, flag waving, allegiance only to my group leader, crew are drowning out that message with their narrow minded vision which they loudly shout out in hopes of being the only voice heard.

 

Such as it ever was.

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

That pleasing Guru is not boring mundane task set on by Supersoul. Krishna is more pleased when you serve His devotee.

 

Just wanted to say this lol

[theist 1]

In reference to...?

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Thiest

That knowledge of who is your guru is directed to us from Supersoul. This is basic Bhagavad gita. So I am saying that one should consult Supersoul and pray to be directed by Him to the one He knows will directyou straight to Him.

-

 

To that.

[Guest guest]

Such writing, to what avail. Sounds like Puru to me.

 

Cant have a discussion among vaisnavas without hammering them into submission. Okay anadi, all glories to anadi, you have proven thayt Ch Ch was referring to you, in blue letters, as the authority we all need to consult and serve with rapt attention.

 

BTW I think you have quoted your verse in blue enough.

 

mahak

[theist 1]

Seems like this guru squabble will ever be here. Decades are passing. Asking God for direction is now a contentious issue.

 

Maybe this is really a twilight zone episode I have fallen into.

 

Pankraja, I am still confused as to what you are trying to say, but that's ok.

[anadi 0]

This duplicity is not evident to anyone.

 

First theist says: the Supersoul gives you what you want.

If you want to be cheated, He will cheat you.

Ok. But don't go on spreading your cheating.

What does theist wants?

He wants this guru: Srila Prabhupada.

Where is this Srila Prabhupada?

In his books!

Really does nobody sees his cheating mentality? and his proficiency in twisting the words?

 

Guru is not sastra.

 

 

A Living Sadhu

A Conversation with Sri Srimad

Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada always emphasized that he was eternally present in his books, instructions, tapes, and letters. So when you say we should take association of a sadhu can we do that through Srila Prabhupada's books?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: If Prabhupada says he is there, then you try to see him, associate with him, and listen from him. Do you see Prabhupada? Do you hear from Prabhupada? Is he speaking to you?

 

Devotee: Through his books.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through books. This is not a new thing. This is our Vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinode Thakur? Can you see Jiva Goswami? You may say, "Oh I have read their books; I have their association." That won't help you.

 

You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, "We need only to read books. There is no need of associating with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu? No, there is no sadhu at all."

 

Your motto is, "Seeing is believing." You cannot see, so you cannot believe. Because you are a conditioned soul, your vision is defective. You cannot see a sadhu. Krishna is there. Can you see Him? No, you cannot, because you are not endowed with proper vision. First develop the proper vision and then you can see Krishna. Then you can see how a sadhu is there.

 

....

Devotee: So we have to associate with a living sadhu?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Definitely. There is always one there. But he is not a cheap person. Such a person is very rare. If you can get his mercy then you can see him. Otherwise, by your own effort and perception, you cannot see him. No, no, no.

 

...

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. The sadhu is the seer. If he showers his mercy upon you, he sees you. If you receive that merciful glance then you are very fortunate. However, you are in the category of bodily consciousness. How can you have it? Guru is the manifestation of the Supersoul, caitya-guru, in the heart. He manifests a body and appears. He knows your heart.

 

Devotee: I don't quite understand.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, try to understand. As I told you, just hear patiently. A new bhakta cannot understand it because it is a topic of the highest class. You are in pre-primary class, how can you understand? You are not even in the primary class. How can you understand this topic of the highest class? Just accept the bona fide authorities. That will help you.

 

My guru-maharaja says in his purport that the beginning is purity of consciousness. First come to this beginning stage. Then gradually other things will come up. You are not in the beginning stage so how will the higher topics come up? This is a very, very subtle and very deep philosophy.

 

Putting full faith in the sadhu you need only submissively hear — sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. In that way you can get the mercy of that sadhu. That will help you. Only one thing is required, nothing else — sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. Just hear. Serve that sadhu, please him, hear submissively, surrender yourself at his lotus feet, and submissively ask questions. Out of mercy, the sadhu will impart this tattva-jnana to you. This is the only process.

 

Unless you get association with a living sadhu, what can you do? Will you put some question to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada will answer you? This process is a living thing. It is always there, and it is always current. It is not that inquiry was done a certain way in the past and now things are done differently. No! It is an eternal.

[anadi 0]

Cant have a discussion among vaisnavas without hammering them into submission. Okay anadi, all glories to anadi, you have proven thayt Ch Ch was referring to you, in blue letters, as the authority we all need to consult and serve with rapt attention

 

Thank you that you are only ridiculing me, subscribing to the demoniac teachings of ridiculing when there is no argument at hand.

 

And you didn't answer the question "What is real love of god?"

 

in replay to

"and Ill gladly hear from devotees like theist and gHari, scholars, indeed, but most of all, devotees, who see scholarship as secondary to real love of god."

 

What is real love of god?

[theist 1]

Prabhupada:...“Even a moment’s association with a pure devotee—all success.” Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous, no. Generally it is so, but sädhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahäprabhu said, lavamatra sädhu sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in the Sanätana-çikñä in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

 

Revaténandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Revaténandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

 

Prabhupäda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it.... Dec.13,1970 Indore

[theist 1]

Paramahaàsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gétä, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-gétä. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you. - MW June 11,1974, Paris

[theist 1]

I read the above and am satisfied. Others can make up their own minds.

[Guest guest]

Same old neophyte game playing out on this thread: Whose the "guru"? What's "bonafide"? Where's the "demon"?

 

"Revaténandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

 

Prabhupäda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it...."

 

Yes, when Srila Prabhupada was with us physically, in person, we were most "eager to take it". Some actually "got" it more than others, for whatever reason. In fact, to some extent the entire WORLD got it. So now what? Any progress made on this path remains eternal, we're assured. The choice of whether to try and remain "fired up", as we used to say, is ours' alone to make. Otherwise, what is the use of freewill, let alone the meaning of "love"?

 

Theist is only encouraging others according to his own realizations. Anadi is attempting to do likewise. Both have their unique approaches to preaching/sharing as should we all, since each we're different individual persons. One major difference is that Anadhi's chosen guru has not yet passed, while Theist's has. Soon enough, we will see how the disciple's of Srila Narayan Maharaj react when he moves on...

 

Those of us who have been involved for several decades now have had plenty of time for all this to settle. It has become more clear that our "advancement" might not be quite as much as we'd originally thought when everything was "happening". We've had to examine ourselves over the years and have adjusted to what we may consider a more realistic and honest appraisal of our position.

 

Are we continuing to cheat ourselves and somewhat mislead others while attempting to justify our interpretation of the Absolute Truth in such a way that we can procrastinate and maintain material attachments? No doubt, for surely none of us can yet claim perfection to any substantial degree. Indeed, we have been forced to accept that what we had thought was imminent will likely take many more lifetimes...

 

Bhakti can never be completely stopped, as Theist pointed out very nicely I thought. Radha controls Krsna, not vice versa. This for me is THE most important understanding. Also, our guru is only ONE of Her confidential servants, not the be all and end all. To see our beloved gurudeva anywhere everywhere requires a deep appreciation of "simultaneously one and different" that I won't attempt to explain here. However, it must be emphasized that for Gaudiya vaishnavas it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to take shelter in Srimati Radharani, NOT "supersoul". God has many aspects, relating to differnt jiva souls in various situations. For us, it's ALL ABOUT RADHIKA!

 

Philosophy, religion, etc. just won't cut it with Her. On the other hand, She is readibly approachable and always accessible for any devotee. It isn't for me to say what that entails for those I hardly know, because that relationship with Swamini-Kishori is highly personal. My only recommendation is to learn all one can about Radharani, becoming an essence seeker, and focus wholeheartedly on that particular aspect of the Supreme Personality until you get Her attention personally. Then Krsna and guru can easily be seen as they are and thus related to accordingly...

 

There's only ONE HUGE PROBLEM, prabhus -- APARADHA! Avoid that and the rest will take care of itself perfectly naturally. The right motivation will automatically arise along with spontaneous affection. There will be no need to overly depend on definitions, obsess over interminable debates, dissect scriptural injunctions taken out of context, quote guru's instructions often intended for a particular time and place, etc. etc. The Holy Names will be recognized as sufficient in themselves. Not that the rest has no value, but conflicts and apparent contradictions will quickly disappear, more or less simultaneiously.

 

If we can simply try to appreciate one anothers' different respective roles just a little, without negating ANYONE, accepting that ultimately Radha and Krsna are totally in control, that would be an excellent start. All depends on the causeless mercy of the vaishnavas. There but for the Grace of God go I. I'd hoped we passed through that nasy demonizing stage a long time ago. WE NEED EACH OTHER! Can't overemphasize the significance of that one basic fact, prabhus. Seeing and applying it personally will inevitably attract the very source of devotion Herself. Jai Sri Radhe!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Theist prabhu, it's a matter of degree. All is not simply one. The value can only be truly appreciated by recognizing differences as well. Of course, oneness is also there simultaneously. This is our philosophy, yet She cannot be understood philosophically.

 

God and guru are beyond comprehension, so how can we pigeon hole them for our convenient purposes? Both exist to jolt us from misconceived attachments, not to be used as justification for lingering on in this material world. Nor are they here for us to use as a kind of security blanket, protecting us so we can continue sleeping complacently.

 

Do so if you choose to, but what upsets Anadi is that he sees as your interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's words encouraging others to seek shelter in him, Lord Jesus and God ONLY, knowing full well that none of those will directly confront our misuse of their teachings in person. In fact, their advice is easily manipulated by our false-egos to rationalize whatever we may want, particularly if taken out of context.

 

Everything Srila Prabhupada gave us has it's purpose and surely he hasn't left us alone, neither has Krsna. Help is needed though from self-realized souls in person, who know us personally, and can reciprocate as such. Aside from that, association with like-minded souls on this forum can only go so far. Satsang it may be, but certainly not the best. It often allows us to entrench ourselves even deeper in our misguided self-serving beliefs. You know, blind leading the blind...please, prabhu.

[Guest guest]

 

Cant have a discussion among vaisnavas without hammering them into submission. Okay anadi, all glories to anadi, you have proven thayt Ch Ch was referring to you, in blue letters, as the authority we all need to consult and serve with rapt attention

 

Anadi: Thank you that you are only ridiculing me, subscribing to the demoniac teachings of ridiculing when there is no argument at hand.

 

 

Anadi prabhu, I don't see this as "ridiculing", only sarcasm born of angry frustration. Don't you have anything more to offer from yourself than quotations and if not, can they not be presented more gently? You've gotten identical reactions on all the forums, have you not? Doesn't that tell you something? Maybe it's time to touch base with Srila Narayan Maharaj himself, like gHari suggested while he's still with us and can advise in this regard. Otherwise, methinks you could very well end up like those you seem so crital of, only worse. Meanwhile, that apparently self-appointed sargeant-major attitude of yours towards pretty well everyone here, regardless of their history and including initiated Prabhupada disciples, has become grating to say the least. Maybe it's your cultural background showing, but it comes across as, "You vill listen, und you vill enjoy it!"

[Guest guest]

"You've gotten identical reactions on all the forums, have you not? Doesn't that tell you something? Maybe it's time to touch base with Srila Narayan Maharaj himself, like gHari suggested while he's still with us and can advise in this regard."

 

Anadi has been chastised before by his own godbrothers for behaving like this. I have reported his "preaching" to disciples who are very close to Srila Narayana Maharaja, and they strongly disapprove. We will find fanatics in any large mission, and this is a good example.

 

From a godbrother who is very very close to Srila Narayana Maharaja, after I reported Anadi's latest misguided preaching efforts:

 

"Sorry to hear that Anadi is at it again. I guess he chills for a while after he gets chastised and then goes off the deep end again. Any person with even meagre intelligence should be able to seperate his roaming speculations from Srila Gurudev. There will be those however who want to fault gurudev no matter what and will use anything to do so."

 

Please Anadi prabhu. Use your discretion. You are not a maharathi, here to take on all comers and convert them by calling them demoniac. Judge by the results. What are you accomplishing here. Most people here don't know Srila Narayana Maharaja, so they assume that you must be representing him, and then they commit offenses against him. Is that what you want?

 

Forgive me for chastising you. I am torn as to whether I should just stay out of this or not. But, as one who is favorable towards Srila Narayana Maharaja and his disciples, I really do not like to see him misrepresented in this forum. Please learn when and where to pick your fights.

 

Please forgive my offenses.

 

Major Tom

[anadi 0]

 

One major difference is that Anadhi's chosen guru has not yet passed, while Theist's has.

 

 

I think there is another major difference.

 

1.Does theist has a diksa guru and who is his Siksa guru?

2.Does theist know what is the difference between siksa guru and sravana guru, when he pretends like Ekalvia pretended he would be the disciple of Drona, because he worshiped his murti?

 

 

Soon enough, we will see how the disciple's of Srila Narayan Maharaj react when he moves on...

 

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Madhava Maharaja is the personal servitor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja for about more than 30 years. Such a sad sishya as Madhava Maharaja is nothing but a sad guru. And still he is not alone. Gurudeva imbibed is mood and knowldge in many other special soul, so that we, the others can come from anishtata bhakti to nista, ruci asakti bhava.

We will react as he taught us:

 

krishna-bhakti-janma-mula haya sadhu-sanga

krishna-prema janme, tenho punah mukhya anga

CC( Madhya-lila 22.83)

 

Sadhu-sanga is the root cause of krishna-bhakti. The life of krshna-prema is this sadhu sanga and nothing else but sadhu-sanga is the principal limb of attaining it.

 

When I say that the personification of the death of bhakti is theist, one may start to speculate, as theist did, that bhakti devi is transcendental, and eternal. But his speech, although in this connection not wrong, was only a deluding tactic, from the ideea that our guru parampara has alwasy stressed: there is no bhakti without the association of the saintly person, the sat guru.

Someone who makes a "bhakti"-line, without taking in consideration the principle enunciated in the verse above, should know that in that line "bhakti is dead". There is no bhakti in that line, although they might talk about bhakti.

 

The propagator of such a line is theit, and therefore he emphasizes in every post "disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially" although he pretends he would be no ritvik. At least the ritviks are not duplicious, they say directly that the books of "Srila Prabhupada" are enough (the matter of fact the same thing said theist) and the others were only concern that I am attacking theist, which means they are like him.

 

The idea to make an institution that promise bhakti, but will never give it, because the root cause and the very life of Krishna bhakti and Krishna prema is missing, cannot be but a negative utopia, something better than a fraud?

And where there is no sadhu, apasiddhanta will flourish.

 

 

[theist 1]

I have NEVER refered to myself as anyone's disciple. Nor am I. It is a rather large claim when you think about it. As I try to grow a little in spiritual understanding I choose to give supremacy to that understand which comes through Srila Prabhupada.

 

As far as seeing this anadi as a representative of Narayan Maharaja I surely don't. I am familiar with this mentality as it can be seen in all religions, sects and camps. The danger is others may be fooled and associate it with a genuine teacher. That would be unfortunate.

[anadi 0]

 

"You've gotten identical reactions on all the forums, have you not? Doesn't that tell you something? Maybe it's time to touch base with Srila Narayan Maharaj himself, like gHari suggested while he's still with us and can advise in this regard."

 

 

How did you know, were you too on the side of ritvik prabhupadanuga forum of padda, that banned me even from the moment I started to post something on guru-tattva?

 

If you worry for Gurudeva's reputation, which emphsizes that guru is the backbone of bhakti, how do you praise, the ones that say in a croocked way: What need of guru, "Consulting guru is done every time we read a Prabhupada purport"

 

Please tell me who you talk to, so we can present both this case.

 

 

Anadi has been chastised before by his own godbrothers for behaving like this.

 

 

 

You think I was chastised previously for behaving like this , which I think is a little bit more than twisted.

Except the case of "Gopal the liar", I never behave like this. And now is the case of theist the disguised ritvik.

 

Previously the sugestion to leave this forum was for other reasons, which went more in the babaji direction.

 

Please forgive my offenses Major Tom