Unique Relationships in Mahabharat

[Kulapavana 0]

many important stories are told in that section(s) of Mahabharata, as these stories (and lives) come to an end. you learn a lot about the real nature of these heroes and more importantly : how Krishna deals with the world and it's problems created by us.

[Guest guest]

I have been reading some of the threads about Karna in this website and am confused about some people's interpretation of events. Please help me clarify my doubts about these matters.

 

We all revere Bhishma as one of the most pure identities in the epic. Also revered and worshipped is Lord Krishna as the divine incarnation of Lord Narayana. However, their injustice towards Karna is something I cant comprehend. Both of these characters all along knew that the noble karna was the eldest son of Kunti but all along kept mum about it. People blame Karna for taunting Draupadi when she was being humiliated but should remember that she was the one who downright humiliated him in her swayamvara refusing to even give him a chance at the competition. And he wasnt even asking to marry her as he would be commiting an anuloma marriage. He just wanted to show his skill. So, people are ready to justify the revengeful pledges that Bhima & Arjuna took & also accept the utter vanity of Draupadi in humiliating Karna whenever she got a chance along with the Pandavas but cannot stand the fact that even he was human and could have brought out pent up emotions an one inopportune moment.

Also, what were Bhishma and Lord Krishna doing when time and again all of the Kuru clan, especially Bhima and Arjuna kept taunting him as Sutaputra in public and humiliating him? The only thing that I know is that Bhishma joined in the taunts further causing Karna to develop animosity towards the Pandavas. Only in the end do they accept his identity. But then it is too late as he is so deeply indebted to Duryodhana that he cant change sides. Infact, when Krishna reveals his true identity to Karna, he asks Krishna why he didnt inform him earlier and why he is informing him just before the war. Krishna doesnt answer the first question at all but moves to the second one and tells him that he wants to save his life and is doing so.Why didnt he want to save his unfortunate life and humiliations earlier?

 

Also, one gets the feeling that had the world come to know of his identity earlier, even Duryodhana would have accepted his beloved Radheya as the true heir apparent of the throne and stepped aside. But all events happened due to the will of Lord Narayana who wanted to exterminate evil from the world at the end of Dwapara Yuga. Karna was just an unfortunate pawn in the events. However, any doubts about his nobility should be put to rest with his rejection of Surya's warning that he was going to be cheated & looted of his biggest strengths.He did this just to protect his dharma of giving no matter who asked. Infact even Lord Indra behaved in such a selfish fashion towards him and Indra was the King of Devas.

 

About Karna's involvement in Abhimanyu's killing, it was no doubt a wrong thing to have done at the time and he did deserve a just punishment. That is the only time he gravely swerved from dharma.But even Arjuna kills Karna's sons right infront of his eyes as revenge.

 

So, not only was his death caused by his misfortune but because of the unchivalrous behaviour of Bhibatsu, the warrior who would never touch the unarmed!

 

As far as repentance goes, the only person who ever repents about Karna's killing is Yudhistira, the most noble one! It is only he who is deeply disturbed by karna's killing in the end. What about Bhima who was the chief initiator of all taunts to Karna as Sutaputra? What about Arjuna who killed his elder brother by unchivalrous means? People may say that Arjuna did everything at Krishna's insistence but Karna didnt give up his dharma even at Lord Krishna's insistence. This nature of upholding Dharma can only be compared to Yudishtira.

 

So someone please explain to me all this animosity in earlier threads towards Radheya, the great son of Surya!

 

[Guest guest]

Vey thoughtful post. I love it! I'm the biggest Radheya fan. I'm with you.

 

"The only thing that I know is that Bhishma joined in the taunts further causing Karna to develop animosity towards the Pandavas."

 

You know, Krishna, Vidura and Bhisma just say the secret had to be kept. No further explanations necessary?

 

Bhisma offers an explanation here (for what it's worth):

 

The only thing that I know is that Bhishma joined in the taunts further causing Karna to develop animosity towards the Pandavas.

 

ancient paztriot

[Guest guest]

The only thing that I know is that Bhishma joined in the taunts further causing Karna to develop animosity towards the Pandavas. Messed up on the past above. Here it is:

 

So he sat for a long time. After a while he got up. The night was no longer young. He could go now to Bheeshma. There was silence everywhere. Not a soul was awake. Shocked as they were by the fall of Bheeshma, the Kauravas were all sleeping the sleep of sheer exhaustion. Radheya hurried with quick and silent steps towards the place on the field where the Kuru ancient had fallen. His mind was in a turmoil. He was nervous about going to Bheeshma: Bheeshma had never liked him. In fact, he disliked him. With this in his mind Radheya walked slowly and with great hesitation towards Bheeshma. He came near the great man. He saw him lying on a bed of arrows. His body was full of arrows. His eyes were closed. Radheya looked at him for a moment. He thought that his heart would break. This man, this great Bheeshma, had been killed by Arjuna. And he was his kinsman too. Bheeshma was his grandfather too. With tears choking him he fell at the feet of the great man and held his feet in his hands. Bheeshma opened his eyes. He said: "Who is it? Whose tears are burning me more than these arrows? Who are you child, that sheds such hot tears of anguish on my feet? Who are you that is so upset by the sight of me that words refuse to come to your lips? Come near me. I cannot see you. It is dark and my head is hurting me so. I am not able to turn it".

 

Radheya sobbed out: "My lord, I am Radheya. I am the unfortunate Radheya who has never had the good fortune to be liked by you. I have come to pay my respects to you. I would have come earlier but, my lord, I was afraid of being hurt by your words in the presence of others. Hence I waited for night to fall before I could venture into your presence". The eyes of Bheeshma filled with tears. He raised his eyelids slowly and looked at Radheya with affection. He called him to his side and he embraced him as a father would his beloved son. He said: "No, my child. You are wrong. I have never once disliked you. How could I, knowing that you are my grandson?" Radheya said: "Yes, my lord, I have been told that you are my grandfather: that I am the son of Kunti and that the Pandavas are my brothers. I was told all this by Krishna when he came to Hastinapura. But how did you know?"

 

Bheeshma said: "I knew about it long ago. Vyaasa told me. But it had to be a secret and my lips were sealed and those of Vidura too. I was in the habit of decrying you. But that was because I did not want your pride to blind you. That was the reason why I dampened your enthusiasm in the court of Hastinapura many times. You would talk badly of the sons of Pandu even though they did you no wrong. That was displeasing to me. In the court of the Kauravas I would hurt you with my words. It is true. But that was because I was fond of the Pandavas. I do not dislike you. Please believe me, Radheya. I love you as much as I love Duryodhana. If it had not been for your friendship, Duryodhana would not have thought of this enmity with the Pandavas. That was the reason why I would talk to you so harshly in those days. Please forgive me for that. I know your valour. I know that you are invincible. I know about your generosity. I know that you are the greatest of all givers. There is no one to equal you in archery. You are the equal of Arjuna and Krishna. I know how you went and fought with the king of Kasi single-handed and won a bride for the Kuru Prince even as I did in those days of the long ago! I know that Jarasandha, who had easily defeated Krishna, could not stand up to you in battle. I am proud to have you as my grandson. You are a great man. You have always been truthful. You are as gloriou's as the sun. You are no ordinary mortal. You have a god for your father. Fate has never been kind to you. She has deliberately made you suffer. We cannot guess the will of God. The Pandavas are your brothers. I will be happy, so happy, if you go and join them. If you go, this war will end. Let me be the only one who has been made to die. Let this enmity end with me".

 

Radheya said: "My dear grandfather, if only it had been possible! If things had been different! But, my lord, things are not what we wish them to be. Once, when Duryodhana and I became friends I had told him: 'I will do anything in the world for you. Even if it seems an impossible task I will be happy to do it and please you. I want to keep that promise to Duryodhana. I will give my wealth, my wife, my children, my body and this life of mine to Duryodhana. He is the only star in my mental horizon. I will die for him. Duryodhana had nursed this anger against the Pandavas, depending on me and my valour. I cannot let him down. When the gods conspire to ruin a man, what can be done? Nothing. I love the Pandavas and I have to fight them. I must walk to my ruin. I know that we are all going to be destroyed. You have told us and uncle Vidura has been telling us all these days. I have been watching the omens. I have had dreams too. They all point to the same thing: the destruction of the Kauravas. I know the greatness of Krishna. I know that he has already decided the fates of all of us. A kshatriya should not die in his bed. The world may think that I am a sutaputra. But I know and you know that I am not a sutaputra. I am a kshatriya. I am determined to die for my friend Duryodhana. Grandfather, please give me your blessings, I beg you. Please forgive me for all the cruel and harsh words which I have often used against your revered self. The great should forgive the faults of the ignorant".

 

Bheeshma embraced Radheya and said: "Go, my child. Can a grandfather be angry with his grandson? You and Duryodhana mean the same to me. I bless you. This terrible enmity between the cousins cannot be wiped out by anyone. You have got to fight. I know that. Die in the battle like a great hero and reach the heavens. I will be there too. Do your duty as a kshatriya and die bravely. You will get what you want. Your name will always be remembered by posterity. I will soon join you in heaven. I must wait for the coming of Uttarayana".

 

Radheya saluted him and said: "Grandfather, I have a boon to ask of you". "What is it?" said Bheeshma. Radheya said: "Please let this be a secret always. Let the secret of my birth die with me", Bheeshma said: "After you have gone, I will tell my Duryodhana about it. Just him, and no one else. He must know the extent of your love for him. But do not be afraid. I will see that he does not tell the Pandavas about it". Radheya stood with folded hands in front of Bheeshma. The old man embraced him again and again and bade him adieu.

 

ancient paztriot

[harekrishnadas 0]

Ancient paztriot - Thanks a lot for posting that beautiful passage. Where did u get this passage of the Mahabharata - is it available on the internet somewhere? If so please provide the website address or tell us about the source of this passage.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

I love the Gita and Bhagavatam. But this narrative form of the Mahabharata is awesome.

 

I recognize the need to expose these literatures. And putting them up on the web like this is a great way to do it. Just like you, when people open it up on screen they'll be hooked… and awed! I am workiing on a Prabhupada web site that will include this Mahabharata too.

 

I got my hardcopy from a devotee mail order store in Texas called Vedic Resource.

 

This is their website… www.VedicResource.com/

 

I didn't see the Mahabharata there just now. Didn't look hard though.

 

Actually it's not in their catalog I have either.

 

But they have it. Just ask for Mahabharata by Kamala Subramaniam

 

VedicResource tele… 800-829-2579

[Guest guest]

That is indeed a great passage in the epic. The meeting b/w Bhishma & Karna. If at all one could pick out 2 really heroic characters in the epic who deserve sympathy, it is these 2. They are always alone & lonely but still are upright and truly uphold their dharma till the very end. Bhishma in his devotion to his motherland and his pledges and Karna in his undying loyalty to the one person who stood by him when the whole world including his mother abandoned him and also his devotion to his dharma of giving.

 

However, it is ironic that Bhishma feels that Karna hates the Pandavas without reason. I would tend to think that the Pandavas gave him every reason to hate them. They always put him down in public as Sutaputra. They refused to recognize him as a Maharathi like themselves. Draupadi humiliates him whenever she gets the chance and so on..

Also, Bhishma felt that Karna was too proud. If Karna was too proud what were Bhima & Arjuna?Atleast in Karna's case he was justified in being proud because inorder to survive in an atmosphere where everyone put down his skills & worth he had to say/do things which would not let them walk all over him. However Bhima and Arjuna were always favoured by one and all. They even had the complete support of Krishna no matter what they did. So how were they justified in being vain about their skills and strength?

 

WHat is more ironic is that Krishna never once tells the Pandavas to treat him with even a modicum of respect. It is ok if Krishna doesnt let out the secret of Karna's birth and lets him suffer thro' out his life. He had his higher purpose to serve in that incarnation.But he could have atleast forbidden his favoured Pandavas from humiliating Karna whenever they got a chance.

 

That just goes to show that there is no character in the epic who is truly perfect or totally righteous. Every character had shades of grey in them.

[Guest guest]

Krsna katha is so nice. The substance is the essence.

 

"If at all one could pick out 2 really heroic characters in the epic who deserve sympathy, it is these 2"

 

So cool to say so I think. "Sympothy" is the keyword; and I agree.

 

"They are always alone & lonely but still are upright and truly uphold their dharma till the very end."

 

This is debateable (Spelling looks aweful either way). they held true to the tennents of scripture and ettiquitte, but they did not ultimately side with Krsna. That is a fault. I guess. Maybe not.

 

"However, it is ironic that Bhishma feels that Karna hates the Pandavas without reason. I would tend to think that the Pandavas gave him every reason to hate them. They always put him down in public as Sutaputra."

 

But that's what he was to them and himself - at the time.

 

"They refused to recognize him as a Maharathi like themselves."

 

Hey, these people had the potency of Krsna. What did they care for challenges?

 

"They refused to recognize him as a Maharathi like themselves. Draupadi humiliates him whenever she gets the chance and so on."

 

Isn't it ironic? …And the key players are quiet about it. But Yudhisthira suspected. (Maybe Draupadi was really attracted and rejected him out of feminist ego at the tournament and later as a chaste wife… who knows? She probably just thought him a lowborn man siding with Duryodhana … Everyone was wrong about him!)

 

"Bhishma felt that Karna was too proud. If Karna was too proud what were Bhima & Arjuna?"

 

Well, the "known" Pandavas were always righteous in their behavior. They were the best devotees and this showed to those who could see … like Bhishma. He favored those whose Grace Krsna bestowed… self-evident.

 

"At least in Karna's case he was justified in being proud because inorder to survive in an atmosphere where everyone put down his skills & worth he had to say/do things which would not let them walk all over him."

 

Wow, you leave me speechless. Nice rhetoric. So true!

 

"So how were they justified in being vain about their skills and strength?"

 

Our eternal problem; for everyone.

 

"WHat is more ironic…"

NO. Krsna is consistent with His plan.

 

"That just goes to show that there is no character in the epic who is truly perfect or totally righteous. Every character had shades of grey in them."

 

Wow. That's quite a summation. I don't think I agree at all!

 

ancient paztriot

[Guest guest]

"That just goes to show that there is no character in the epic who is truly perfect or totally righteous. Every character had shades of grey in them."

 

I say this is a material estimation.

 

For one thing, Krsna's desire or fancy or whatever you want to call it--is truth.

 

If the whims of our so-called leaders can be manifest by their desire and the masses accept their policy as truth… then what can Krsna accomplish?

 

Duryodhana had not the common sense that everyone else had… to ultimately accept Krsna's opinion as the last word. It defies logic!

 

Krsna must have made him act that way. No other explanation? Huh, anyone?

 

Similarly, all the characters had their part to play… most of these assorted characters were demigods that appeared in key roles to facilitate Krsna's purpose.

 

Their resolve, their purpose, the fortitude… WE CANNOT COMPREHEND!

 

ancient patriot

[history_lover 0]

Actually during those times, human beings could be regarded as property. Look at all the servants(daasis and dasaas) in the palaces. Were they not property? Their position was similar to the black slaves in America. A daasis son(unless born to a king-for example Vidura) would be born into slavery. Kings could gift their servants to another king.They could indiscriminately have children with daasis, using them like property. Dhritharashtra also had a son with Gandhari's chief daasi while Gandhari was pregnant.Ambika sent her Daasi instead of herself, when she had to undergo Niyoga with Veda Vyasa the second time. So there is nothing demonic about Duryodhana regarding Draupadi as his property. In fact, Yudhishtira was demonic since he pledged his brothers and his wife as HIS property- why is no one accusing him? I am not supporting the fact that Duryodhana and his friends humiliated a woman, but what were the Pandavas doing at that time? Their duty as husbands was to protect their wife-whether they were kings or slaves was irrelevant. When a husband himself cannot protect his wife, why should anyone else be blamed if they ill-treat her? Yudhishtira himself did not respect his wife at that moment. Of course,the reason he had was that he wanted to prevent a war(based on Rishi Vyasa's premonition that Yudhishtira would be the cause of a war thirteen years later). Secondly, he wanted all the Pandavas and Draupadi to be together even in bondage. But he disrespected his wife, in order to prevent a war, so he set the path for other people also to disrespect her.

[history_lover 0]

Before you continue bashing up Karna, maybe you should look at the story of his life-just once.

 

From the moment he has been introduced into the story, Karna was humiliated and put down. When he challenged Arjuna in the display of arms, Bheema gave him the title of Sutaputra, and he was never given a chance to exhibit his talent.Karnas challenge in fact made Arjuna wary, and Arjuna even in the war was worried only about Karna. From that moment, all the Pandavas, except Yudhistira call him Sutaputra, and dont give him an ounce of respect(as a human being, forget about the caste). They also never recognize his talent as a maharathi.

 

During the swayamvara, Draupadi did not even give Karna a chance to take up the challenge.She could have easily said "You can try, but I will not be able to marry you even if you win." That would have been the polite thing to do. Instead,she arrogantly insluted him in front of all the other kings. Put yourself in his place-how would you feel if you are trying to prove that you have a talent, and someone(that too a woman) insults you in that manner?

 

When Duryodhana visits Indraprastha, and falls into the "magic" lake, Draupadi guffaws in fromt of all the servants and calls him a "blind man's son". Was that not wrong? Did she not inslut both Duryodhana and Dritharashtra(indirectly). In fact, due to her behavior at that time, Duryodhana's hatred to the Pandavas increaed further, and he wanted to humiliate them in the same way that Draupadi humiliated him. When he tells Karna about this, Karna naturally agrees to support him in his humiliation of the Pandavas.

 

All these events lead to Karnas behavior at the throne hall. Of course, it was completely wrong of him to call Draupadi names(refering to her as a woman held in common by five men). He instigated the disrobing of Draupadi etc. But he definitely regretted his actions.He was also NEVER in favor of the game of dice. Can you give me one instance where Karna supports the cheating ways of Shakuni? He does not support the buring of the palace at Vanaravata(hope I got the name right). He always used to tell Duryodhana that a true Kshatriya fought his battles in the battelfield, NOT with dice or through cheating. But Shakuni used to brainwash Duryodhana and thus Karnas honourable intentions had no effect on him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This history_lover comes out of nowhere with these attitudes. Has he been around?

 

It is a mixture of fact and fancy.

 

I can anser him. I hope someone else can.

 

ancient paztriot

[Guest guest]

Ok, you beat me to a response. I gotta read what you wrote.

 

ancient paztriot

[history_lover 0]

I would not call their relationship "special". But it was important since that was the only way Bhishma could die.

 

It is interesting how K.M. Munshi has intertwined Krishna, Amba and Drona in the conversion of Drupadas daughter(Amba) into Shikandi by the Yaksha Sthoonakarna(under Dronas orders)

[history_lover 0]

I'm sorry- could you plese point out the facts and the things I have imagned in my reply? I would like to correct myself if I was wrong in my summation.

 

One more thing. This was not a rebuttal to your posting. I was replying to another person(guest pg 1) who said he hated Karna due to his behavior in the throne hall

[Guest guest]

Sideline: Another sad character is Ekalavya, the Nishada… an archer who impressed even Drona - as the best.

 

" …and he was never given a chance to exhibit his talent"

What do you mean? Duryodhana fixed that.

 

"Karnas challenge in fact made Arjuna wary, …

 

I really doubt it. Arjuna was part of Nara-Narayana (whatever that means).

 

"… and Arjuna even in the war was worried only about Karna."

That was probably because Arjuna knew his father gave an invincible weapon to Karna. Otherwise, it was Yudhisthira who worried about Karna's prowess.

 

"They also never recognize his talent as a maharathi."

 

Not so sure about this. I think it was just that the Pandavas felt secure in their posiiton and support of Krsna. (Arjuna accomplished the impossible many times over).

 

"During the swayamvara,…"

Well, he was known as a lowborn man… despite his prowess. After all, he could not surpass Arjuna. Arjuna and his clan were known as contenders for the earth. Karna? No chance!

 

Now what do you know of women and the choices they make? (not being disrespectful… just pragmatic)

 

"When Duryodhana visits Indraprastha…"

Oh give me a break! Draupadi knew Duryodhana had already attempted many assination attempts. she should show mercy to someone determined to kill them at all cost?

 

"He instigated the disrobing of Draupadi etc…"

Karna did not instigate the disrobing of Draupadi. He made some supportive comments, but he did not initiate it.

 

I guess I agree with the rest.

 

ancient paztriot

 

 

[Guest guest]

Please be specific in your questions; cite "exactly" what you question me on.

 

ancient paztriot

[Guest guest]

Do I need to remind you that you are posting on a forum? Replied can come out of nowhere.

 

I've been feeling I've posted too much lately, maybe you're right.

 

ancient paztriot

[history_lover 0]

well, thats why I'm mentioning your name in the subject. Most people appear as guests and dont have a name.

[history_lover 0]

Sideline: Another sad character is Ekalavya, the Nishada… an archer who impressed even Drona - as the best.

>>Yes, it is sad how people forget Ekalavya-in fact I had totally forgotten about him, till now.

 

" …and he was never given a chance to exhibit his talent"

What do you mean? Duryodhana fixed that.

>>how? even after he was made King of Anga, they still wanted to know his parentage.And once that became known, Bhima started taunting him and told him to hold the reins of a chariot,sicne that was all he was fit for. And then the sun set, so there was no chance for Karna and Arjuna to have a duel.

 

"Karnas challenge in fact made Arjuna wary, …

 

 

"They also never recognize his talent as a maharathi."

 

Not so sure about this. I think it was just that the Pandavas felt secure in their posiiton and support of Krsna. (Arjuna accomplished the impossible many times over).

>>yes,what you say does make sense

 

"During the swayamvara,…"

Well, he was known as a lowborn man… despite his prowess. After all, he could not surpass Arjuna. Arjuna and his clan were known as contenders for the earth. Karna? No chance!

>> Agreed. He was lowborn. But Karna explains that he only wanted to show people that Duryodhana friends who could take up the challenge. And he also says that he could never marry Draupadi as it would be a Pratiloma marriage.Draupadi could have given him a chance after she heard this. And why could he not surpass Arjuna? In the war,when he and Arjuna met, if Karna did not have all those curses upon him, he could have probably won, the way he was fighting.(this is not a fancy, by the way)

 

Now what do you know of women and the choices they make? (not being disrespectful… just pragmatic)

>> Now why do you presume that I do not know anything about women?-not being disrespectful, just pragmatic /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

"When Duryodhana visits Indraprastha…"

Oh give me a break! Draupadi knew Duryodhana had already attempted many assination attempts. she should show mercy to someone determined to kill them at all cost?

>> Yes, I agree that Draupadi knew how evil Duryodhana was.But does that give her a right to insult a guest, especially knowing that he has been taunted as "a blind man's son" throughout his life by Bhima? Think about how frustrated Duryodhana would have felt, hearing that comment all throughout his life(even at the swayamvara), and now from a princess whom he could not win.

 

"He instigated the disrobing of Draupadi etc…"

Karna did not instigate the disrobing of Draupadi. He made some supportive comments, but he did not initiate it.

>> Actually,C.Rajagopalachari and K.M. Munshi both say that Karna initiated it. I'm quoting both authors:

 

"O Vikarna,forgetting that there are elders in this assembly,you lay down the law....Even the clothes they have on are now Shakunis property.O Dushasana,seize the garments of the Pandavas and the robes of Draupadi and hand them over to Shakuni"(Rajagopalachari,Mahabharatha Pg 94)

"Vikarna, you think that you are wiser than all the Elders gathered here,don't you?...The five brothers have no right to wear even the clothes they have on. Dushasana,remove the clothes from these five men and also from Draupadi,and surrender them to their lawful owner,Duryodhana" (Munshi,Krishnavatara VII,Pg 133)

 

 

[Guest guest]

"And then the sun set, so there was no chance for Karna and Arjuna to have a duel."

 

Yes, things were heating up. But Karna got his chance to compete due to Duryodhana.

 

"Agreed. He was lowborn. But Karna explains…"

I think I agree with all this.

 

"Now why do you presume that I do not know anything about women?"

A question with a question?

 

"Yes, I agree that Draupadi knew how evil Duryodhana was."

Well, I disagree with you here. The sins of the Pandavas do not balance the sins of Duryodhana on any scale. Draupadi was intelligent. She gave him no quarter. So many people did. Was their faith rewarded with an expectant change? No. To turn the cheek for someone trying to kill you is usually a mistake.

 

"Actually,C.Rajagopalachari and K.M. Munshi both say that Karna initiated it."

 

I'll grant you I'm probably wrong about this. I thought I might be after I posted it. I'll check my book and see. If I don't reply you are right.

 

ancient paztriot

[Guest guest]

I was irritated by this earlier:

 

"That just goes to show that there is no character in the epic who is truly perfect or totally righteous. Every character had shades of grey in them."

 

This just didn't sound right. Krsna is Himself the measure of right and wrong.

 

But I'm remembering how Krsna and the elders didn't do right by Karna. Also, when it was learned that Karna was a brother at the funeral rights, Yudhisthira first asked if Krsna knew about Karna and kept quiet. The answer was chilling.

 

Seems Krsna didn't do right by some. Can anyone help me here?

 

Still, the absolute nature of Krsna holds.

 

No one lives a perfect life. Do they?

 

ancient paztriot

 

I'm gonna look up Karna in a minute.

[history_lover 0]

"Yes, I agree that Draupadi knew how evil Duryodhana was."

Well, I disagree with you here. The sins of the Pandavas do not balance the sins of Duryodhana on any scale. Draupadi was intelligent. She gave him no quarter. So many people did. Was their faith rewarded with an expectant change? No. To turn the cheek for someone trying to kill you is usually a mistake.

 

>> Yes,you are right about that.

 

"Now why do you presume that I do not know anything about women?"

A question with a question?

>> Well, let me answer your original question by saying that I do happen to know something about how a woman's mind works.

 

 

[history_lover 0]

I guess the best person to asnwer your question would be the guest who posted that opinion.

 

Here's my point of view. Krishna was born with a purpose-that was to eliminate evil(from what I've understood) and to reduce the burden on Mother Earth.Although he knew that Karna was the Eldest, he had to keep that a secret so that the Pandavas would fight the battle, and those who were destined to be killed ,would be. That is the only possible explanation I can think of. It is unfair on Karna, definitely. Another thing that strikes me is that none of the Pandavas except for Yudhishtira, showed any remorse or sorrow when they got to know about Karna. Even Yudhishtira was not lamenting the way Duryodhana was. Their reactions-or lack thereof, are surprising and disappointing.

 

Any word on Karna yet? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

HL

[Guest guest]

I got the guests mixed up. Sorry. Happens all the time.

 

To whom it may concern:

 

Seems you are right about Karna. He did instigate the taking of clothes, but not the direct affront to Draupadi. He said something very nasty about getting her used to her new duties.

 

This is long. I'm repeating it for the benefit of others. The point of contention is at the end.

 

The hall filled up slowly. Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa, Vidura, they were all there. The king was there. The game began. THE DIE WAS CAST. Yudhishthira announced his stakes: his jewels, his precious stones and his wealth. The prince Duryodhana said: "I am laying my wealth against yours. Here it is". Sakuni took the dice in his hands.. He shook them deftly and threw thein on the floor. "Wore', said Sakuni. Yudhishthira, gave gold coins in thousands, and necklaces studded with precious stones. The same wager was laid by the prince. The die was cast once again. Once again Sakuni's "Won" could be heard by all the people in the hall. Silence reigned there now.

 

The game went on. The fever was now in the blood of poor Yudhishthira. Game after game was played. Sakuni's "Won" now became just a monotonous refrain for the dreadful game. It was no longer an exclamation of pleasure. Yudhishthira kept on losing steadily. He lost his jewels, his chariots, his gold, his horses, his wealth, his elephants, his army, his slaves, his treasury, his granary, his vessels: everything was being swallowed up by the demon Sakuni sitting there with his persistent taunting voice announcing "Won". Vidura thought that it was time someone interveAed. He told the king: "My lord, you have got to listen to my words even if they are not pleasing to your ears. A sick man will not relish the medicine which the physician prescribes. But take it he must, if he has any desire to get well. You must remember the time when this darling son of yours was born. Evil, dreadful omens could be seen. You asked me why. I told you that your son would be the cause of the destruction of the world. I asked you to kill him in order to save the world. You would not listen to me. Now, at least now, believe me when I say that the time has come when the portents will prove their prophecy to be true. The world will end if the game continues any more. The injustice that is being meted out to the Pandavas will not go unpunished. You will suffer great sorrow in your old age because of the death of your sons; yes, all your sons. Do not ill-treat these great heroes. Avarice is a terrible thing. You are afflicted with that terrible disease, and your son has inherited it from you. Your son has not the strength to fight the Pandavas in open manly war. He is cheating them with the help of this prince among cheaters. Please do not countenance this. It is sure to have terrible results. I beseech you, stop this". He did not get a single word of reply from the king.

 

There was silence after this. The only music was the music made by the dice as they rolled on the floor, with Sakuni's "Won" keeping time to this. No one spoke. Duryodhana turned his face to Vidura. He came and stood near him. He said: "My dear uncle, you are great in praising the virtue-, of others in our presence. Ever since my childhood I have been noticing one thing. You have always been partial to the Pandava-s. You have never liked me. All the time you have tried to malign me. You are very ungrateful to the hand that feeds you. You are trying to kill the natural affection my father has for me. You say you are our well-wisher. I do not think it is true. In fact, I believe it not to be true. You need not grieve for us. We are all right. You can feel sorry for your favourite nephews who will become beggars in a matter of a few moments, thanks to my real well-wisher, my uncle Sakuni. As for your warnings about the future, there is no one who can change the writing of the Creator who set me on this strange eventful voyage called life. Any good qualities I have, any bad qualities I may have, any action of mine now or in the days to come, have all been already ordained by Him who set me on this journey. Please do not flatter yourself that by your words to my father or to me you can change the. course of destiny. Leave us alone. Please do not talk any more words of this kind to my father". Duryodhana turned away from there and walked towards the platform where the fateful game of dice was being played.

 

The game was going cn. Sakuni with his sinister smile said: "I am afraid you have lost all your earthly belongings, Yudhishthira. You have nothing now. If you have something that you can call yours, you can wager that. I will wager all that the prince has won so far. If you win, you can claim it all back". The madness of the game had made Yudhishthira lose all his sense. He was silent for a moment. Suddenly he made up his mind. He said: "I still have something to offer as my wager. This young, dark and handsome brother of mine, this Nakula, will be my wager". "Won", said Sakuni. Yudhishthira said: "The wise Sahadeva is the next wager. There is no one like him in this world. I do not like the thought of using him as my wager But I have to do it". "Won", said Sakuni. Then Sakuni said: "The sons of Maadri are lost. You have two more brothers. Evidently you do not think they are good enough to be used as wagers. I think you are right. Nakula and Sahadeva are dear to you and so you used them as wagers. But actually we did not consider that the stakes were equal. Still, we could afford to be broad-minded. That is why I allowed you to use them as your 'wealth' against that of the king. Let it pass. We have won. But considering the remaining brothers, I think you are right in thinking that they are not good enough as wagers. I think so too. But you must do something if the game is to continue. Or perhaps you think that they are far superior to the sons of Maadri. That is perhaps the reason for your hesitation". Sakuni waited for Yudhishthira to speak.

 

Yudhishthira was extremely angry with Sakuni for his words which burned him like fire. He said: "Please do not say such things. Your idea is to cause dissension among us. You can never do that. Here is Arjuna who has no equal in the world. He is my wager". "Won", said Sakuni. "Here is Bheema", said Yudhishthira. "He is the commander of my army. This is Bheema whose strength is greater than that of all of you. Bheema is my next wager". "Won", said Sakuni. "I am the wager now", said Yudhishthira. "Won", said Sakuni. There was a moment of stunned silence. In the midst of that silence, like drops of liquid fire, the slow words trickled out of the leering lips of Sakuni: "You still have Draupadi. You have not lost her yet". Bheema grasped his mace firmly in his hand to throw it at the head of Sakuni.

 

Arjuna stopped him with his eyes. With his senses completely out of his control, Yudhishthira said: "Draupadi, the favoured queen of the Pandavas, is my wager now". The dice was thrown for the last time. For the last time the hall resounded with the triumphant "Won"' of Sakuni. All was lost.