theist 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 I like to ask myself some simple fundamental questions. Like in this case why do I bother learning? What is the purpose of it? I have found that my mind has a prepared response already to go. "Well its the purpose of this human form of life to acquire knowledge about God and self-realization". Then I have to make it more personal and get past the stock answers, rather if they are true or not. Why do I bother reading Prabhupada's books? What is my real motive? To come to know Krsna and my relationship to Him? Well.... Thinking that I will at least acquire a better situation in the universe for myself in the future? Sounds good for the interim and surely plays a role. To get final liberation from my suffering? Definetly at some point. But a motive that is dark in nature is also strongly there. I have found that by superfically taking in some of these basic arguments put forward by the Gaudiyas I can then spit them out at the right time and defeat others with them. Establishing what feels like a superior position over them. Thus the Ravana in me reveals an ugly head. Trying to make use of the Lord's internal potency (in the form of divine knowledge) for the purpose of my own enjoyment. So while imitating a devotee, the truth is I am Ravana's servant. This is distressing to see an admit to myself. One way this dark tendancy manifests in engaging in sectarian quarrels with the motive of defeating someone else's belief's. Bringing them over to 'my' camp (way of thinking) so that I may savor the taste of ego victory and a sense of expansion as our numbers grow. The devotee will also debate but with the motive of helping liberate the person(s) he is talking to and pleasing his guru and Lord by that work. There and there alone he finds his own pleasure and satisfaction. He himself is satisfied and feels no need for any personal gain. Its kind of uncomfortable but I must always watch the nature of my true motives. It seems maya has a shadow like copy of all that is real for me to adopt assuming it to be the real thing and actual substance. Which brings up another related question. Why do I continue to choose to live in the shadows and avoid the Light? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 2003 your eternal form is 'cit' and your are surrounded by 'avidya' (this material body) right now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hare Krishna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 because you want to be happy, that is always our primary consideration Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 Yes I agree that transcendental knowledge is a constituent of my very self. But upon inspection I find I avoid the realization that is that knowledge. We are meant to be absorbing realizations and passing those realizations on others in a spirit of love. But for some reason I prefer the imitation of that. Accepting only that which sounds and appears like knowledge and passing that on. I clearly have fallen into some subtle trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 Kulapavana, Yes I accept what you say. But then why do I continue to allow myself to be motivated from my lower 'self'even though it appears I understand this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 2003 "Yes I accept what you say. But then why do I continue to allow myself to be motivated from my lower 'self'even though it appears I understand this?" Because if you truly meditate on it, it is not the "lower self" that you will see. It will be a want for krishna. What you want is happiness and in your subconscience, you think that you feel happy when you act through your lower self which you have explicitly explained in the first post. However, you also know in your subconscience that this is not the case and you can only get happiness through service to krishna. I do not agree with your first post, with your words you do not seem to be "ravana's servant" at all. It has been said that you will know a fool as soon as he speaks and by the way you wrote your post, you are no fool. There are three gates to hell : lust, anger, greed. These three need to be given up gradually and it is a long process which is to be left to krishna while serving him, He will remove them and will make sure that we are elevated to the lotus feet of Shree Radhakrishna. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 desire for happiness is there in both "lower" and "upper" self. you need to chose your path based on intelligence or "higher" self, and you know that. but the pain of austerity is unavoidable. just learn to live with it - it gets easier with time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 Because if you truly meditate on it, it is not the "lower self" that you will see. It will be a want for krishna. This is very deep and I will try to focus more on what you say. But isn't this the same for everyone including the atheist as well? I see my position similar to the thirsty man who goes to the rivers edge and instead of drinking the water he spends all his time turning to those behind him and trying to describe the qualities of the water. "Oh its very good, you must come and have some..." An intelligent person would first drink some and then describe, drink more then describe some more. I have been fooling myself for so long. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 desire for happiness is there in both "lower" and "upper" self. you need to chose your path based on intelligence or "higher" self, and you know that. but the pain of austerity is unavoidable. Just learn to live with it - it gets easier with time. Yeah I think this gets close to home. It's a process and determination and patience are needed. I hate austerity. Maybe this is part of the reason for my pretense. Not willing to make the real change of heart but knowing I must. Painful spot to be in. So I choose to let my mind fool me. Thanks for the help folks. Anything more on this subject would be of great interest and usefullness. Hare Krsna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 Knowing your varna and acting accordingly helps tremendously in this process. Dig up my varnashrama thread on this board if you like for more info. You cant force a change in your heart - it happens on its own, with time and devotional service. Patience grasshopper, patience... /images/graemlins/wink.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 Patience..? OK But when does that come? I've been chanting off and on for a while now and I still don't see Krsna. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 I can actually see some progress I have made over the years, the 25 or so years that is... /images/graemlins/wink.gif seriously though, the understanding of my varna (kshatriya in my case) helped me understand my problems and not get frustrated waiting for things I will most likely never see while in this body. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 it would be helpful to know one's varna. I have tried to analyze this within my own mind and all I see is a confusing mixture. I also think this pressure may be necessary for me. It may help drive me to really fall at Krsna's feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 he he... pressured surrender is OK but I always pray for intelligence to surrender on my own. it hurts a lot less... /images/graemlins/wink.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 2003 "he he... pressured surrender is OK but I always pray for intelligence to surrender on my own. it hurts a lot less... " People always say "surrender to krishna, the reason for your restlessness is not surrendering, you need to do work for krishna" and "surrendering to krishna is perfection of life". I try to surrender ok! and it is making me restless! I cannot work, I probably read too much about krishna. I am messing up my social life and everything, sorry but thats how I feel. I am more restless now than I was before I went into bhakthi. If I am humble to every one that is just making me more and more depressed and if I am chanting aloud that is just making the other's whom I live with restless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted October 23, 2003 "I try to surrender ok! and it is making me restless! I cannot work, I probably read too much about krishna. I am messing up my social life and everything, sorry but thats how I feel." Do not be alarmed. These are actually good symptoms and show your sincerity. Your world is changing, as you wanted it to change. Some people in your life will even turn away from you. Do not try to change them now, concentrate on doing practical things like chanting, service and association with other devotees. Nobody said going back to Krishna is easy, but it is well worth the effort. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 2003 well if you didn't have some amount of mundane desire you would be in direct communion at all times with God. That is in fact the only thing that is keeping you from that association. due to identifying with the mind and body we see reality differently then from what it really is. in reality our mind is not under our control, the gita explains, the self realized sage sees the supersoul guiding the actions and thoughts of all living entities, this includes himself. He sees God in all things, at all times. He knows that our desire for anything other then pure devotion,is illsuory and keeping us apart from our birth right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 2003 Thanks, that just made my whole day of self pity into something useless. I feel so much better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 Not pressure relly from a temple commander or something.lol I really couldn't handle that. "Time to brush your teeth prabhu" No thanks. I mean the situation I find myself in is pressure enough when I can muster the strength to look at it. My 'death' is certain. After that birth is certain. No genuine happiness in between. Sayuja mukti sounds like such a blah, jay around unconscious for God knows how long, get bored and then pop back out into birth and death again. Nah, that's not an option. The inner voice keeps saying "Just love KrsnaJust love Krsna" But I am just to friggin' proud or stupid or both. It's a trapped cornered feeling that I live with. No real transcendental bliss. But its better to have this pressure and struggle then to be 100% sold out to maya. It's a start at least. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 24, 2003 "Not pressure relly from a temple commander or something.lol I really couldn't handle that. "Time to brush your teeth prabhu" No thanks." /images/graemlins/smile.gif hahahah! that should be the case for us rebellious spirit souls. "The inner voice keeps saying "Just love KrsnaJust love Krsna" But I am just to friggin' proud or stupid or both." This is the same thing for me, but it only comes up when I am too angry, or depressed and calms me down. Sometimes, it even comes when I try to show off or hurt someone through a verbal arguement, to make me realize "is this what you want?", but I do it anyway and feel guilty later on and it says "stop worrying about the past, try to correct yourself and work for krishna, surrender ot krishna , everything will get better" . It is most unfortunate but we can't quite really know if it is good or bad, we can only judge it by the words that come out of it, but lucky for most of us , its words are always so wise and true. Most of the times it empowers us to act in a certain way, or feel a certain feeling of guilt. I think it is a "commander" of our "temple"(body). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 24, 2003 "The inner voice keeps saying "Just love KrsnaJust love Krsna" But I am just to friggin' proud or stupid or both. It's a trapped cornered feeling that I live with. No real transcendental bliss. But its better to have this pressure and struggle then to be 100% sold out to maya." I think it is a reflection of our true selves, striving to search for the divine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gHari 0 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 Jnani Theist in the Ganges with Gaura, Learning generates faith. It's all so logical; something deep inside resonates YES. It's the old adage "If ye had but faith ye could move maya". Faith kindles desire for Krsna. As that desire eventually totally consumes us, everything disappears, pride, babes, broccoli, glory - and only Sri Krsna is left. That's what He wants. That is our reality. When you can't live without Him, then you will live with Him. If it doesn't say that in shastra, then it should. But learning for glory? Yes, the good ol' mode of passion gets us sometimes; being seen, adored, praised, all that empty stuff from our silly cool youth. Our fictitious need to be accepted or adored when combined with learning produces some pretty wild debaters and humongous egos. Maybe that's how we kill rajo guna though? But learning should engender faith, and that faith and learning humility, and that humility Krsna. Jnani gHari's Thoughtless Thoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theist 1 Report post Posted October 24, 2003 for making this thread much more than I had hoped for. I grew today because of your words. "..in the Ganga with Gaura" You saved me with that image gHari prabhu. As I read that one line I received a vision, yes a vision, of Gauranga bathing in the Ganga some distance upsteam from myself and the same water that washed over His body flowed down to wash over mine. Hare Krsna all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 24, 2003 It is the Ashrama of the Brahmana,Learning,that is. That is his/her occupational duty. As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Prtha. One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well. For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy PURPORT Actually, every living entity is intended to abide by the dictation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is seated in everyone's heart as Paramatma. When the mind is misled by the external, illusory energy, one becomes entangled in material activities. Therefore, as soon as one's mind is controlled through one of the yoga systems, one should be considered to have already reached the destination. One has to abide by superior dictation. When one's mind is fixed on the superior nature, he has no alternative but to follow the dictation of the Supreme. The mind must admit some superior dictation and follow it. The effect of controlling the mind is that one automatically follows the dictation of the Paramatma, or Supersoul. Because this transcendental position is at once achieved by one who is in Krishna consciousness, the devotee of the Lord is unaffected by the dualities of material existence, namely distress and happiness, cold and heat, etc. This state is practical samadhi, or absorption in the Supreme. For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me. PURPORT A person in Krishna consciousness certainly sees Lord Krishna everywhere, and he sees everything in Krishna. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of Krishna, knowing that everything is a manifestation of Krishna's energy. Nothing can exist without Krishna, and Krishna is the Lord of everything -- this is the basic principle of Krishna consciousness. so here we see what our vision should be, Everything is a manifestation of god, I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. by engaging the mind in Transcendental activity ,or Bhakti yoga ,then one is situated in the Transcendental realm, the path of perfection,the mind will be the best friend when it is engaged in its eternal natural occupation, for the perfected souls they are naturally on that stage, they see all things equally,knowing that God is everything and controlling everything,they have no Anxiety,they exist in Vaikuntha, Which means no anxiety. These are the liberated souls who are not deluded by the force of Maya, for them Maya is their servant, their best friend,for others Maya can be a great obstacle, all that is needed is engagement of the mind in Bhakti yoga,like holding a piece of wood in fire, after a while the wood becomes non different from the fire, the mind when engaged in Transcendental reality, becomes transcendental. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gHari 0 Report post Posted October 25, 2003 Yes, He wove a wreath of the Holy Name around the world. Now we can bathe in it. That same purifying water. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
