Can Swami Narayan be Krsna?

[Guest guest]

Bhagwan Swaminarayan said that one person who is greater or younger than never insult but you must show respect to them no matter who they are

[Guest guest]

jai swaminarayan

KrishnaBhakta, swaminarayan bhagwan did not punish a sant for disagreeing with him and i dont see where it says that he did that, if swaminarayan was so full of maya at that time, then how come we have such a great sant such as pramukh swami in this world? he is deatached from all worldy objects. my family and i belive in swaminarayan as well. i understand that you are entitled to your opinion

jai swaminarayan

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

First of all, what you follow is not the original path wanted by swaminarayana. He adopted the sons of his brother, and placed them as the head of the sampradaya. Also, the shikshapatri, that is read by the followers of the same sapradaya as pramuks swami is not the same one written by swaminarayana. it is the edited version created after the separation of the origional swaminarayana sampradaya. i'm not telling you to convert to the right path, but that who you believe in did not want you to believe in what you follow, or believe. hope that makes sense, or just read it a couple times.

 

what i was saying was that, even in shikshapatri he wrote that men should worship Krishna;

 

this is what i meant: as you might know, Srila Swami Prabhupada was a pure devotee of Krishna. he wanted to spread the message of Krishna, to let the world know about Him. a devotee claimed to Prabhupada that Prabhupada is Krishna himself. Prabhupada corrected this. swaminarayan did not. yes, he preached that Krishna is the source of all. his followers practically did the same thing. what did he do? he didn't correct them. he let them believe that. i hope you are following what i am saying.

 

also, my mom, from the teachings of the vachnamrut--book composed of swaminarayana's lectures--believes in swaminarayana as greater than Krishna; in the original shikshapatri it says that Krishna is the source of all incarnations--don't know if this is in the one you follow, but i doubt that; not what she believes again. i don't believe with her with a lot of beliefs; sorry about that.

 

yogi maharaj and pramukh swami and those in the lineage are not of the lineage that swaminarayana wanted to begin with. answer this to yourself: WHY WORSHIP A PERSON WHEN YOU GO AGAINST HIS TEACHINGS AND WHAT HE WANTED YOU TO BELIEVE?

 

there's no sense in it. i hope this helps. i have no intentions to preach against swaminarayana. i am trying to learn about the truth; not preach what i don't know about. i stated what i did about swaminarayana because i know that; from what my family practices. i am learning; hope you don't argue anymore. believe what you think is right. i have no desire to convert you in any way. just telling what i know.

 

----------------by KrishnaBhakta

[Guest guest]

excuse me but we are not going against his teachings... in the vachanamrut it says (and i can give you a page refrence for this) 'one should meditate on shri krishna bhagwan toghther with radhika' why do you think it says radhika? because maharaj says you should pray to gods greatest follower in this case radha. bhagwan swaminarayans greatest follower was gunatitanand swami and right now it is pramukh swami

[KrishnaBhakta 0]

i'm not going to argue about this. i know that in the vachnamrut it even says that one should meditate on the form of Krishna with Radha next to him. but, most followers of swaminarayana do not worship Krishna. pramukh swami is not part of the movement started by swaminarayana. nothing to argue about. for some reason, the original movement had some problems and something, and it split; also, i have never been to a temple where they follow pramukh swami and seen a deity of Krishna. when doing puja, even though swaminarayana said to worship Krishna, not many followers of swaminarayana chant Hare Krishna or such. they chant swaminarayana. don't think you can argue with that.

 

i don't want to start another argument on this, so it would be good if you left it to this.

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

in london mandir (swaminarayan mandir neasden) they do have a murti of shri krishna bhagwan and they also have one in gandhinagar mandir in india too

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

yes, but what i said was from the temples of pramukh swami i have visited. yes, they may have the murati of Krishna, but they don't worship Krishna. they may to an extent, but believe in swaminarayana as superior, and chant "jay swaminarayana" not "jay shree krishna". hope this is pretty clear to you.

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

well of course they sau jai shri swaminarayan....its his mandir after all. swaminarayan i belive is god

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

that is the point i wanted to make. swaminarayana said that Krishna should be worshipped. then why do his followers worship Krishna?

 

Srila Prabhupada established many temples before he left this world. what do they chant at the temples? do they chant rounds of "jay srila prabhupada"? no. they chant Hare Krishna. that is the difference. Prabhupada said Krishna is God. but after some while people started accepting Prabhupada as supreme, then that is against Prabhupada's teachings.

 

hope you understand. worshipping someone and going against that person's teachings is wrong. not hard, is it?

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

sorry, but the above is supposed to say:

 

that is the point i wanted to make. swaminarayana said that Krishna should be worshipped. then why do his followers worship swaminarayana?

 

[Govindaram 1]

 

Not sure who I am asking but, doesn't SWAMI denote being the servant of somebody? So Swami-Narayana means, servant of Narayana, I'm trying to make a point you can see:)

 

 

[Guest guest]

swami ment "one who controls his senses"

[Govindaram 1]

 

 

thankyou,

 

so doesn't saying swami-narayana contradict?

 

I mean to say, and I hope I am not being offensive but, everybody knows Narayana is in the trancendental position, so adding Swami to somebodys 'spiritual name' means the person in question is of a material body right?

 

Sorry again for my offences, please forgive this fool.

[Guest guest]

I dont understand.

The word Swami behaves as an adjective to Narayan e.g. Vasudev Narayana, Krishna Narayana. Swami in this case means master of all. Brush up on your sanskriti vyakarana and you will see.

 

Whats this about material body? God assumes what APPEARS to be a material form so that we can see/hear/touch Him. That does not mean He is a material being.

 

 

[Govindaram 1]

 

 

you are right, jaya swaminarayana!

 

always chant the Holy names of God,.haribol!

 

Hare Krsna!

[Guest guest]

i'm sorry, but that was not the reason of my reply.

 

swami narayana means master narayana, yes. i know that. but, i would like to say something, but forget it. i could care less, and don't want to argue.

 

Haribol

 

KrishnaBhakta

[Govindaram 1]

<font color="red"> Morning Walk </font color>

--

March 24, 1974, Bombay

<font color="red"> </font color>

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, actually they are doing. Although we see that from bodily point of view they have become weak, but they don't care for it. They... You see. If they had been weak how they are chanting and dancing sankirtana? They are not weak at all. (Hindi) [break] "Now let me dance." Then I shall jump over your head." (Patel laughs) This is philosophy. "Now I am dasa, then I become your master."

 

Dr. Patel: How can you be master when I am nothing? When I am dasa, then I will be nothing before you.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That is voidism. You are something. How you are nothing?

 

Dr. Patel: How can you be the master of a master?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That is not possible, but these Mayavadis tries for this.

 

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: These Mayavadis, they want to become the master. (Hindi) [break]

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: They are Mayavadi?

 

Dr. Patel: No. They are Vaisnavas. All Vaisnavas.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: But they worship...

 

Dr. Patel: They worship Krsna.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No. Krsna and their original...

 

Dr. Patel: Guru. They worship you, don't they?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, no. The guru can be worshiped, but...

 

Yasomatinandana: They worship guru as God.

 

Dr. Patel: No. God is God. How can...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Hare Krsna.

 

Dr. Patel: They worship guru and God both.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That is guru. Guru and God...

 

Dr. Patel: And you. You cannot have God without guru.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: And, "Let God go away." Oh, that is not good. That is not good.

 

Dr. Patel: It is not so. I think somebody has wrongly informed you, sir. And I will get you some comparative literatures to... [break] There are no four-hand there. There are no... You have wrongly seen and I have wrongly seen. No. That is...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: But you showed me the wrong thing.

 

Dr. Patel: It was not right thing, but we have not seen in the dark. It was right thing, it was Krsna's own photograph, and there were no four hands.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: But I saw the picture. The guru has four hands.

 

Dr. Patel: No. We saw it in dark, both of us. And I also wonder... [break]

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: ...in a Rama mandira, but there was no Rama.

 

Dr. Patel: Yes, Rama mandiras have all degenerated.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: There was no Rama. The guru's picture. He's Rama.

 

Dr. Patel: That is Rama. All the temples of Saïjaya (?), there is always Krsna's (indistinct) there. [break]

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: ...(indistinct) What is this?

 

Guest (2) (Indian man): No, no. He is from that sampradaya. [break] They worship God as Swami Narayana. My Lord is Narayana. Swami means the Lord, and Narayana is the Lord. So they say always "Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana." Just like we chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, they chant "Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana, Swami Narayana." The Lord is Narayana, God is Narayana, God is Narayana. So Swami is Narayana. You see, actually what did he preach, "Our Swami is Narayana." So they have Swami Narayana song.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That is Mayavada. That is Mayavada.

 

Guest (1): That is Mayavada, or whatever it may be.

 

Dr. Patel: Everything is Mayavada.

 

Guest (2): Oh, Lord is Narayana.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: As soon as we say, "Our Swami is Narayana," it is Mayavada.

 

Dr. Patel: It is not that. It is... What he says is not right.

 

Guest (1): No, that is, I understand. I have not...

 

Dr. Patel: You read all the magazines that I have read. He accepts... [break]

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: ...Vivekananda has done: daridra-narayana. Here is "Swami Narayana."

 

Dr. Patel: That is different also. You don't put up two together.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, no. Same thing. Another...

 

Dr. Patel: Don't get excited or it will be...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, no. I'm not getting excited. You are getting.

 

Guest (1): You also don't get excited.

 

Dr. Patel: I am not getting excited, but it's not that. I will really bring you the real...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, no. I am asking what is the difference between this daridra-narayana and Swami Narayana? That I am asking.

 

Dr. Patel: See, he actually went to Badrinath. When we call Narayana, Narayana, as our Lord, how is it Mayavada? How it comes into Mayavadi?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That is explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih. Guru is accepted as good as God. Haritvena samasta-sastraih. Saba-sastra.

 

Dr. Patel: In all sastras.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktah **, it is said. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih **. And this principle is accepted by great saintly persons. Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. He's not one with the Prabhu, but he's very dear servant of Prabhu.

 

Dr. Patel: That is right.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That conception is Vaisnavism. And as soon as you simply say that "He is God," that is Mayavada.

 

Guest (2): Yes but we are not... But he has wrongly...

 

Guest (1): No, Swami Narayana, what I told you the principle of Swami Narayana is that...

 

Guest (2): Swami Narayana...

 

Dr. Patel: You have no right to speak.

 

Guest (1): No, no. What I understand about this...

 

Dr. Patel: There are three schools of Vaisnavism. But that... In that school, the preaching and everything in the worship is the same, more or less.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: [break] The thing is... This is the conclusion, that guru may be worshiped as Krsna, but the worshiper knows that "I am worshiping my guru not because he has become Krsna, but he is the most confidential servant of Krsna." That is Vaisnava.

 

Dr. Patel: All the Vaisnavas, what he has said. Every time he has said the same thing.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: This is the difference between Vaisnava school and Mayavadi school. Advaita-vada and dvaita-vada. They become very strong, at the same time, remain servant.

 

Dr. Patel: These suddhadvaita-vadis, their upper garment and lower garment the same as... [break] ...you call Mayavadis, they say that this is all humbug and nothing and nonexistence. They... [break] ...both are one and both are right and both are existent and both are... There is no illusion, as you say. The same thing.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Simultaneously one and different.

 

Dr. Patel: That is a little (indistinct)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: So unless you accept this difference, then it is Mayavada. Simply oneness is Mayavada.

 

Dr. Patel: That's right. You may... You accept one and the same, separate both or another explana..., another, only Krsna knows and nobody knows.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, no. No, why Krsna knows? One who is Krsna's devotee, he knows also.

 

Dr. Patel: All are Vaisnava devotees, aren't they?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, no. This is Mayavada. Not all of.

 

Dr. Patel: Accha. Vallabhacarya's devotees, Vaisnavas are not...?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Vallabhacarya is a sampradaya.

 

Dr. Patel: But are they not Vaisnavas?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That is a sampradaya. Visnusvami sampradaya. That is accepted. That is accepted.

 

Dr. Patel: Ramanujacarya's Vaisnava was not Vaisnava?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Oh yes.

 

Dr. Patel: Then why do you say so? They are all Vaisnavas but...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: But Ramanujacarya does not say that the devotee is God.

 

Dr. Patel: Nobody says so.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No. [break] ...oneness with diversity. Yes. That is visistadvaita philosophy. And nirvisesa. Nirvisista-advaitavadi sankhya philosophy. Nirvisista.

 

Guest (1): Nirvisista means?

 

Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: NirvisisTa means... No, Vallabhacarya... suddhadvaita. Suddhadvaita. That is called kevaladvaita. Kevaladvaita. [break] Krsna is adi. Visnu is in the material world, He's accepted as one of the devas. Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. So Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam.

 

Guest (1): So Krsna is adi of Visnu...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Visnu also.

 

Dr. Patel: Maha-Visnu.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Yes. No Maha-Visnu is adi. Maha-Visnu is kala-visesa, partial exhibition of Krsna.

 

[Govindaram 1]

<font color="red"> Morning Walk </font color>

--

March 2, 1974, Mayapura

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: "Swami Narayan is better than Krsna," then what they learn?

 

Indian man: (indistinct)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: In London they have got a branch, and they're chanting....

 

Indian man: (Hindi)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: (Hindi) Swami Narayan. That is my objection. Why they are putting...

 

Indian man (2): "Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan." (laughs)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: What is this thing? "Swami Narayan." Narayana is there.

 

Indian man (4): Narayana is there.

 

Indian man (2): Swami is their guru and Narayana is God, so both, Prabhupada and Krsna, Prabhupada and Krsna, Prabhupada Krsna...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: But that does not mean they should chant. Just like, we are not instructing our disciples to chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami..." No. They're chanting Hare Krsna. Hari-tvena samasta-sastrair uktah. Guru is respected as good as Krsna, but that does not mean I shall teach them to go and chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami." What is this?

We are teaching, "Chant Hare Krsna." Harer nama, harer nama... [Adi 17.21].

 

Indian man (3):Prabhupada so much...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Because he, my disciple respects me as God, that does not mean I'll think I have become God.

 

Indians: (indistinct)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Hold some meeting, and you are belonging to the, you asked them, "Why you say like this?"

 

Indian man (4): We are... here I represent them, and you represent...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, they're preaching.

 

Indian man (4): Both are Vaisnavas...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: Just like these boys said.

 

Indian man (3): [break] ...all difference here, and they have got no difference at all.

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: No, no.

 

Indian man (3): I would not say that...

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: I can understand that. That is not difficult.

 

Indian man (3): Ah?

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: So only thing is that why they're preaching against their own principle?

 

Indian man (4): Eka vasinam tapasa tapa ya bratah... (?)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: That is my point. That is my point. Everything is there for Krsna, but they're chanting "Swami Narayan." Why?

 

Indian man (4): There are... In Swami Narayan's sampradaya there are...

 

Indian man (3): (indistinct) ...you have to follow me." (Indians laugh)

 

<font color="red">Prabhupada</font color>: So far we are concerned, Gaudiya Vaisnavas, there is no different conclusion. The conclusion is there. <font color="red"> Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. </font color>

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

very nice, prabhu. thank you very much.

 

Haribol

 

----------KrishnaBhakta

[Guest guest]

You keep confusing Swaminarayan with Swami Narayan. The Swaminarayans believe Swaminarayan (Sahajanand Swami) to Be Krsna and worship Him as so..

The Swami Narayans believe Swami to be Pramukh Swami their Guru and Narayan to be Sahajanand Swami.

 

How does Mayavad come into this? Same can be said about Caitanya worship

 

www.baps.org

www.swaminarayansatsang.com

www.swaminarayan.info

[Govindaram 1]

 

Hare Krishna,

 

Its clear from above posts, whats being said.

 

Haribol.

 

[Guest guest]

It would be clear to you, yes. After all, you were the one who posted it.

Any insights?

[Govindaram 1]

 

haribol!

 

I can't give any, the quotes from His Divine Grace, speak for themselves, hare krishna. somebody else can do so if they like.

[Govindaram 1]

'something'..

 

Right, Swaminarayana is Guru, that is what SP is saying, but ppls worship him as God, which is Mayavadi, Guru and God not the same, though we worship Guru as well etc, so its pretty clear, if I'm wrong then correct me, but its pretty clear from what Srila Prabhupada said, Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam, so we worship Krishna as Supreme, Guru is servant of Krishna. Thankyou.

[Guest guest]

The guru himself worships a Deity of Sri Krsna. So if you are looking for God then why not follow his example and simply worship Sri Krsna according to the way Sri Krsna Himself recommends for this age? Chanting the Maha mantra. Also all of the big leaders of Swami Narayana study Srimad Bhagavatam....u too can do this by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada.