value of sadhu-sanga

[theist 1]

but it wouldn't open for me. I probably couldn't handle it anyway but it sounds like something I need as I am totally convinced that I am much much more valuable than the straw in the street.

[Guest guest]

only dust?

 

God ! that's pretty lowly to be only the foot dust of great

 

saints !

 

I guess that's more in tune with who I really am

 

your dust,

Bhakta Joe

[Guest guest]

i am not responsable of who is saying that diksa given by the tape recorded by the pure devotee is not valid.. if you are discussing with me why bring deviations spoken by other people?

 

vani is spiritual.. and vapu is spiritual

 

the pure devotees have no material body, if we are near them, walking with them, speaking with them there is nothing material

 

the complete picture is vani plus vapu.... if any one cannot have access to one of the two aspects is unfortunate, there's no doubt

 

i can read prabhupada books, but, hearing the impressions of disciples who have been with him in direct contact, i'd give a leg to go back in 1970, hear a class under his vyasasana and ask questions for 15 min.

 

paradox n9387: prabhupada in 1965 had to send only a box of books, why bother to go out of vrindaban? the phisical presence of a guru is not required!!

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(i understand that is almost impossible to find a pure devote, but let us not bring it at the excess and let us not offend who has find a bona fide spiritual master and appreciates vani and vapu ..... when it is possible)

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

i am not responsable of who is saying that diksa given by the tape recorded by the pure devotee is not valid.. if you are discussing with me why bring deviations spoken by other people?

 

 

I never made such an accusation. You missed the point of the statement. The fact that Prabhupada initiated many disciples without having physically seen them shows that physical proximity to the guru is not important.

 

 

the complete picture is vani plus vapu....

 

 

No, both are equally complete and transcendental. To state vani plus vapu is "the complete picture" implies that vani alone is the incomplete picture.

 

The form of the spiritual master is present within his instructions. By following the instructions of the guru, his transcendental form is revealed.

 

Srila Prabhupada's own view on this matter is relevent:

 

 

There are two--vani or vapu. So vapu is physical presence and vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same. So Krsna when He was physically present before Arjuna is the same when He is present before us by His vani of Bhagavad-gita. So far I am concerned, I do not factually feel any separation from my Spiritual Master because I am trying to serve Him according to His desire. That should be the motto. If you kindly try to fulfill my mission for which you have been sent there, that will be our constant association.

 

 

 

Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is more important than vapu.

 

 

 

...vani and vapu, and vapu means the physical body, and vani means the vibration. So we are not concerned about the physical body.

 

 

 

There are two ways of associating, by vani and by vapu. Vani means words and vapu means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not. Therefore we should take advantage of the vani, not the physical presence, because the vani continues to exist eternally.

 

 

 

Although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, that is living.

 

 

[Guest guest]

what i have said is very plain and simple.... prabhupada has come... he has not sended some books with UPS

 

the fact that he was not directly accessible by every disciple it was due to a state of emergency, in a real and well developed vaishnava environment direct association with guru is the normal rule

 

please ask to a people who has been with prabhupada for ten seconds if he think that it is not so important

 

both are trascendental... vani and vapu... transcendental means important and real

[theist 1]

None so deaf as he who will not hear.

[Guest guest]

i am too dull... i need a spiritual master /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Dear Theist, I do not want to upset you, but hearing listen, reading and asking from sadhu on this subject, I cannot agry with you.

 

 

So they say that sabda-brahman is not transmited via tape,or just by the will of Prabhupada, so Prabhupada was really tricking them until they could become eligible(obtain enough sukriti) for the real thing. Which of course is their guru who is now here to pick up where Prabhupada left off.

 

 

You do not take the transcendental sound from the tape recorder, never, and never.

 

"The second aspect of Srimad Bhagavatam's definition of sound that is unique from modern thought is that sound is defined as that which indicates the presence of a speaker. Thus sound must be a product of consciousness. "

 

The tape recorder has no cosciousness, because it has no soul, the tape recorder is an avastava vastu (a non spiritual object), like a dead Suka (parrot), not like the real Suka-deva.

 

"

Para-vak is also known as "rava-shabda" - an unvibratory condition of sound beyond the reach of mind and intelligence (avyakta), only to be realized by great souls, parama-jnanis.[/]

 

On the stage of para-vak there is no distinction between the object and the sound. The sound contains within it all the qualities of the object."

 

You do not take the transcendental sound from the tape recorder, never.

The tape recorder has no cosciousness, because it has no soul, the tape recorder is an avastava vastu (a non spiritual object), like a dead Suka (parrot), not like the real Suka-deva.

 

[Guest guest]

Previous post from the neophyte.

Sorry for the bad editing.

 

the neophyte

[Guest guest]

i am the guest "i am too dull... i need a spiritual master"

............ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

i do not agree with you, the voice of the spiritual master works like the murti

 

vaishnava is omnipotent, if he decides, for preaching in a state of emergency, to give harinama and diksa through ritvik representatives and/or giving mantras with a tape recorder, krsna gives to him this power

 

in the same way krsna gives to him the shakti to be there in the photo and in the murti even if he is a jiva (with a body of earth, water, air and fire) and not a vishnu tattva

 

the point is that this predominance of vani (tapes, books, ritvik ecc.) in modern times is due to a state of emergency and it is for the unlimited mercy of srila prabhupad and today's iskcon/gaudya vaishnava gurus..... but it is not normal neither ideal for the vaishnava

 

every sincere disciple desire to be near to the guru more as possible

 

of course also this behaviour can hide pride and desire of sense gratification, but what aspect of the neophite's life is free from the danger of the deviation?

[Guest guest]

 

vaishnava is omnipotent, if he decides, for preaching in a state of emergency, to give harinama and diksa through ritvik representatives and/or giving mantras with a tape recorder, krsna gives to him this power

 

 

 

Could you please back up this statements with some substantial arguments from sastra,(or sadhu) or this is only the expression of what you are thinking?

 

the neophyte

[Guest guest]

Dear Neophyte,

 

Please read through this Sanga posting. In this Sanga you have the words of A.C. Bhaktivedanta and Sridhara Maharaja on the matter of initiation by tape. You also have the example of both Sridhara Maharaja and B.P. Puri Maharaja adopting the practice after hearing about it. I think you will find that there is considerable backing from both sadhu and sastra for the practice. As Sridhara Maharaja said - 'the will of the vaishnava is everything'.

 

http://swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_four/m195.html

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[theist 1]

 

"The second aspect of Srimad Bhagavatam's definition of sound that is unique from modern thought is that sound is defined as that which indicates the presence of a speaker. Thus sound must be a product of consciousness. "

 

 

 

The tape recorder has no cosciousness, because it has no soul, the tape recorder is an avastava vastu (a non spiritual object), like a dead Suka (parrot), not like the real Suka-deva.

 

 

 

 

So where do you think the sounds on the tape come from? Do you think the tape player put them there? Prabhupada is conscious. Beyond that he is Krsna conscious.

 

Anyway you have your source for information and I have another. That is freedom of choice.

 

[theist 1]

The link that Audarya-lila provided says it all I think.

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Or NOT.

 

Well, I feel this is true because , if we just give everything up to krishna , he will come, whether it is with a guru or not.

 

I don't think a living entity has to surrender to another living entity to get the grace of the supreme. Even though this is a little childish(because it goes against the scriptures)

 

I feel really strong about it and doesn't krishna say , "Surrender to me with out caring for any religion"?

[stonehearted 0]

theist: The link that Audarya-lila provided says it all I think.

 

Ditto from the Big Island.

[theist 1]

How can you be without guru though? You may not be in a particular persons camp so to speak, but without all those living entities writing and preaching we never would have any knowledge of transcendence or Krsna. This started with Brahma and has come on down. So our debt to them is very great.

[stonehearted 0]

I appreciate your sentiment, but it shows a lack of experience. Here's what Lord Krishna tells Arjuna in Adi Purana: "One who says he is My devotee is not my devotee; only one who says he is a devotee of My devotee is actually my devotee." And Lord Chaitanya identifies Himself as "a servant of the servant of the dust of the lotus feet of Krishna." Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself took initiation from a devotee of Krishna's devotees.

 

(Sripad Tripurari Maharaj made a comment like this in one of his discussions I've heard: "Do you know why worshiping vaishnavas is so important? Because this is vaishnav-ism!")

 

This is simply common sense. Even in the material world, we can't just approach an important person on our own. We need to be introduced by someone in his or her circle. Isn't that so?

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Annamaya, Meerabai and every one else?

 

Then prabhu , if one is very devoted to krishna but does not find a guru, would that mean he/she will not reach krishna?

 

 

[AncientMariner 0]

 

 

 

 

I thought I read that if the devotee can't find a suitable guru that Krishna acts as guru from within the heart of the devotee. I can't seem to find the quote though so I may be wrong. Can anyone verify this?

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

Then prabhu , if one is very devoted to krishna but does not find a guru, would that mean he/she will not reach krishna?

 

 

If one is truly sincere Lord Krishna will send a sat-guru to them.

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Chaita guru is not enough?

[gHari 0]

I placed the file here too:

 

http://home.primus.ca/~caitanya/GKISORDB.ZIP

[stonehearted 0]

Chaitya guru arranges for the sincere devotee to meet sad-guru. This is what happened in the case of Dhruva: when the Lord saw depth of the boy's determination, He arranged for him to meet Narada, who in turn instructed Dhruva in a sadhana that brought him face to face with the Lord. Srila Prabhupada taught us that by the grace of Krishna, one gets guru, and by the grace of guru one gets Krishna.

 

I've mentioned this before, but when Srila Prabhupada was discussing guru with that Irish poet, the poet suggested that our real problem is finding a qualified guru. Srila Prabhupada countered that our real problem is becoming sincere.

[theist 1]

Thanks again gHari but I still can't open it. I get a box saying can't find aol.exe

 

So whatever that is I guess I don't have it

 

hare krsna