Jesus the only Way

[theist 1]

 

SB 1.1.2: Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhagavata Purana propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhagavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyasadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhagavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.[/qoute]

 

That's a reasonable outlook Jndas. I share that view.

 

There is nothing to be gained by trying to establish an artifical equality that doesn't exist. One may find examples of pure religion in the Bible but on the whole what is seen is something further on down the path towards pure religion.

 

But we should have enough knowledge and maturity to see the reason these other religons are instituted by Krsna in the first place.

 

Buddhists are not destined for Goloka but should we decry Lord Buddha, a Shaktivesa-avatar? Of course not, we know his purpose.

 

Same with Christianity. Christ is willing to take his sincere followers to Christ-loka where he will give them further lessons on the Personality of Godhead. As for the bulk of them at least they are worshipping in some fashion an incarnation and in that way advancing instead of degrading themselves. I will aslo admit that there are those who call themselves Christians who will be rejected by Christ for just trying to use him as a doormat for their sinful activities.

 

But what is the point of some who feel the need to dominate them with philosophy? Better to try and encourage their relationship towards Christ. Yes challenge them on meateatting and reincarnation etc. but we can do that with an attitude of service to Christ and Krsna instead of assuming a sophmoric stance better suited to a Jr. High debate club.

 

Again, what is chala-dharma?

[Govindaram 1]

Hare Krishna

 

Quote from Indasji: Prabhupada rejected the writings of Tulsidas, which also appear to be filled with bhakti for Lord Ram".

 

Did Srila Prabhupada do this becasue of-course he is a devotee of Krishna.??

 

Also why then have dieties of Sri Sri Sita-Ram, Laksmana, Hanumanji in Iskon temples?

 

Please could you answer these questions for me, and please forgive me for any offences caused......Haribol! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Guest guest]

 

The Bhagavatam, being a literature for the top most rasika bhaktas (i.e. not us), is very strict in its definitions of dharma and rejects virtually everything that does not lead directly to bhagavata-prema. As such, even the paths of karma, jnana, and mixed bhakti are all rejected, what to speak of other religious paths. Our acharya's are so strict in this that they reject the writings of those great devotees who have a slight tinge of impersonalism. For example Mahaprabhu rejected Jagannath Das, the author of Oriya Bhagavatam, which appears to common people to be pure devotional sentiment (i.e. bhakti); Bhaktisiddhanta rejected the songs of Mirabhai, which are also full of devotional sentiment; and Prabhupada rejected the writings of Tulsidas, which also appear to be filled with bhakti for Lord Ram.

 

 

 

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what your take is on Thyaagaraaja? Admittedly, I love South Indian devotional music, and much of what I listen to is composed by Annamaachaarya and Thyaagaraaja. The former is, per my understanding, a Sri Vaishnava, and even performed the first kalyaana of Lord Venkateshwara in Tirupati temple. The latter, however, was I believe a smaartha by birth. And although he was reputed to have been instructed by Naarada, this is all merely legend, objectively speaking.

 

The reason I bring this up is, I have to put my South Indian sentiments aside when I think about scripture and what it teaches about pure Vaishnavism. Much of Thyaagaraaja's music is beautiful and moving, no doubt. But every now and then I hear something that just doesn't seem consistent with pure bhakti. For example, in one of his kiirtanas called "Paramaathmudu" he refers to the Parmaatmaa as that which he sees in Hari, Shiva, the living entities, etc, almost implying that Hari is not the same as the Paramaatmaa (saguna/nirguna concepts of Advaita?). Of course, it could be just a matter of semantics. But then again, there are other doubts I have had - nothing concrete, just unsettling things I have heard in his kiirtanas from time to time. Maybe it is worth discussing.

 

Of course, regardless of what the conclusion is, I don't doubt that Thyaagaraaja is way more advanced than I; I say this only to put it all in perspective. I do want to understand other devotees of Vishnu within the context of Gaudiiya Vaishnava conclusions, but I don't want to imply that they are not genuine Vaishnavas or that they are not worthy of respect. Nor do I want to falseley assume that everyone is a pure devotee without studying their concept of devotion. My view is that when we have such things as Nectar of Devotion to instruct us, then we should understand examples of pure devotion correctly.

 

yours,

 

- K

[Guest guest]

 

I wasn't trying to use 4.11 to validate anything, just noting that this is my response to the Christians. "Everyone follows Krsna's path in all respects." I wouldn't try to validate Christ to your mind any more than I would try to validate the mahamantra to your mind. They are pudding, beyond the jurisdiction of the mind.

 

 

The point is that BG 4.11 refers to various followers of the different yoga paths Krishna had mentioned previously. There is no reason to think that the "everyone follows Krishna's path" includes Christianity, and thus it is unclear as to how this is a response to Christians who argue that Jesus is the only way.

 

The verse does have a very nonsectarian spirit - regardless of how one worships, ultimately the results come from Krishna. But whether those results are further bondage in the material world, gradual advancement in the planes of material existence, emancipation from one's mortal coil, or loving devotion to the supreme Lord is another thing.

 

yours,

 

- K

[gHari 0]

K,

 

Then you disagree with Prabhupada's inference in the quoted Bhagavatam lecture as it references BG 4.11, and indeed with his entire long lecture about the essence of 4.11? Perhaps you missed them in your haste?

 

If indeed "BG 4.11 refers to various followers of the different yoga paths Krishna had mentioned previously" as suggested, it is unclear why Krsna would even bother to mention it? "These men on My path follow My path in all respects."

 

The mechanics of this systematic path of surrender is the reward "bhajAmy aham". It is what all men want; therefore they will eventually perfect their surrender in order to maximize the reward. The system, the path, the relationship is thus designed.

 

gHari

[gHari 0]

From a lecture on BG 4.11 in July 1966:<blockquote>PrabhupAda:<center>

ye yathA mAM prapadyante

tAMs tathaiva bhajAmy aham

mama vartmAnuvartante

manuSyAH pArtha sarvazaH

[bg. 4.11]</center>

This zloka, this verse, we discussed last Friday evening, and I tried to explain the supreme leadership of the Supreme Lord. By nature we are destined to follow a leadership. Nobody is independent. Even in the animal society, the animals, they have also got a group, and there is leader of the group. Perhaps you know it. So in every group... And we are trying to make some group according to the similarly of thought and propensities. There are association, you know, various association, mercantile association, bankers' association, lawyers' association, and there is a leader. That is the nature's way.

 

Now, the supreme leader is SrI KRSNa. That we do not know. Supreme leader, the leadership is accepted, but we do not know that the supreme leader is the Supreme Lord, or KRSNa. So that is informed in the Vedic literature, and in the Bhagavad-gItA also, the same thing is confirmed, that ye yathA mAM prapadyante: "Now, everyone is under My leadership, everyone. There is no exception." Especially He mentions the manuSya. ManuSya means the human being. The human being especially mentioned here because amongst all the human beings in this lower status of our existence, the human being is considered the highest perfectional stage of living condition. And especially human being has the prerogative to understand the supreme leadership of SrI KRSNa. The animals cannot understand it, or the persons who are in the animal nature...

 

Just like you will find in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gItA. The Lord says,<center>

na mAM duSkRtino mUDhAH

prapadyante narAdhamAH

mAyayApahRta-jJAnA

AsuraM bhAvam AzritAH

[bg. 7.15]</center>

"Those who are always engaged in mischievous activities, those who are fools, those who are lowest of the mankind, and those whose knowledge has been deluded by the external energy, they do not make their surrender unto the Supreme Lord." But there are other persons who are virtuous. They are considered that Arto jijJAsur arthArthI jJAnI ca bharatarSabha. There are other persons who are distressed and in need of some wealth or inquisitive or really research worker in the field of understanding what is the Absolute Truth. And this morning we were discussing in the morning class that the person who are research scholar in the matter of understanding the nature of KRSNa, transcendental nature of KRSNa, he is called jJAnI, or philosopher, and he is accepted, with bhakti, with devotional service, he is accepted as special for the attention of the Supreme Lord.

 

Now, everyone... Therefore everyone is following the leadership or the representative of the leadership. Now you will find in the Bhagavad-gItA. When there is some specific qualification of a person, just like political leader or some spiritual leader... Leader there must be. So suppose a political leader or religious leader is there, and thousands of people are following him. So that is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gItA, that they are invested with certain power of SrI KRSNa. Yad yad vibhUtimat sattvaM mama tejo 'Mza-sambhavam. So everyone is following directly or indirectly the supreme leadership of KRSNa. And the perfectional stage of accepting that leadership is when we accept SrI KRSNa as our direct leader.

 

We are going to that path gradually, going to that path gradually, but in the middle, we are hampered because there is want of sufficient knowledge. When sufficient knowledge is there... You'll find in the Bhagavad-gItA. BahUnAM janmanAm ante jJAnavAn mAM prapadyate: [bg. 7.19] "After many, many births, when one is developed in his real consciousness, he can understand." What? What he understands? VAsudevaH sarvam iti sa mahAtmA su-durlabhaH: [bg. 7.19] "That KRSNa is the Supreme. He is all in all, so I have to surrender unto Him." That is the perfection of knowledge. This stage one has to reach. Never mind whether he is following a principle of philosophical research, whether he is following the yogic principle, or whether he is following philanthropic work or political leadership or... So many things are going on, but the whole thing is targeted toward KRSNa. How it is targeted? That is explained. I shall try to explain.

 

Now, the whole material world is working under two energies: the lower energy and the higher energy. And the both of the energies, they have got different dimensions. Just like in this atomic age, you know, the material energy ends in the atomic portion, atoms, paramANu. Similarly, this is... Material energy is called lower energy, and there is another energy which is called spiritual energy. So both the energies, they are emanating from the Supreme Lord. In the VedAnta-sUtra also, it is confirmed, janmAdy asya yataH: [sB 1.1.1] "All energies, they are coming, emanating, from the Supreme." In the Bhagavad-gItA also, you will find the same thing confirmed. AhaM sarvasya prabhavo mattaH sarvaM pravartate [bg. 10.8]: "I am the fountainhead," Lord SrI KRSNa said. "I am the fountainhead of everything." So now to understand how everything is He, so two energies are working in this world in our experience. One is superior energy, or the higher energy, and the other is the inferior energy. The inferior energy is matter, and the superior or the higher energy is the spirit soul. [...]</blockquote>

[Priitaa 0]

Regarding Jesus as the only way, those who translated those words in an unbiased manner revealed they translate as one has to follow his method, not that 'he' is the only way, but his method of doing things (like chanting Gods names!). Proper translation is everything, as we all know in the Hare Krishna movement first hand. And fundamental Christians aren't going to tell it the way Christ actually told it. By the way, Christ did not speak Greek, but Aramic. Yet we depend upon Greek-to-English Bibles.

 

I agree that we do not need to Veda-ize all religions. I also feel of the bonafide religions out there (as there are many which are not), that Krishna sent His representative to preach according to time, place and circumstance. This gently elevated the people in general so in time they would come to direct Krishna Consciousness. Though I believe our focus should be on consciousness of Krishna now that we have finally arrived! However, there is always a natural curiosity, and for this reason I post the following link (from these boards) which IMHO, answers a lot of questions:

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/37816/6/collapsed/5/o/1

 

YS,

Priitaa

[Guest guest]

 

Then you disagree with Prabhupada's inference in the quoted Bhagavatam lecture as it references BG 4.11, and indeed with his entire long lecture about the essence of 4.11? Perhaps you missed them in your haste?

 

 

 

Not at all. As I mentioned previously (I think twice now), Krishna is indeed the one who authorizes results of any religious practice, via the material nature in most cases, or Himself in the case of his pure devotees. No one, be he a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc can receive anything unless it is at least indirectly authorized by Krishna. Furthermore, as all jiivaa-s are constitutionally part and parcel of the Lord, all of them are trying to satisfy their propensity to serve the Lord, albeit perverted by the material nature into serving various things that may not be transcendental. This is basically what Srila Prabhupada has said regarding "All men", taking his BG 4.11 purport and that Bhaagavatam lecture you quoted.

 

Where I disagree with your position is the idea that "all men follow my path in all respects" somehow validates other, non-Vedic religions. For one thing, no non-Vedic religion has been mentioned by Krishna in the text or Srila Prabhupada in his purport. For another thing, the context involves only discussion of karma, saankhya, and buddhi yoga up to this point. Finally, if "all men follow my path" means that all paths followed by those men are also on Krishna's path, then this logically includes even misleading doctrines (Advaita, Buddhism) or blatantly fraudulent religions like Rajneesh's cult. In such a case, one would be forced to conclude that one can either get the transcendental result from such non-devotional religions (clearly unacceptable), or that not all paths included by Krishna in His statements in 4.11 lead to the supreme goal. Either way - no points for Christianity here.

 

There is no way to be independent of Krishna. People can choose to surrender to other religions, but no result they achieve by such religions can be had without Krishna's (via the material nature) approval.

 

 

If indeed "BG 4.11 refers to various followers of the different yoga paths Krishna had mentioned previously" as suggested, it is unclear why Krsna would even bother to mention it? "These men on My path follow My path in all respects."

 

 

 

It's actually quite clear - because those who practice karma-yoga, j~naana yoga, etc must be reminded that Krishna is the ultimate goal. Even if they worship demigods by performance of karma-kaaNDa rituals, this does not make them independent of Krishna. Krishna is the supreme goal, so if one is making "spiritual advancement," then it is towards Him.

 

If you read Chapter 2 and 3 in the original Sanskrit, you can see that Krishna does not explicitly emphasize Himself as the goal in every single verse. Rather, you see Him only doing this maybe 2-3 times at most per chapter. Since Krishna wants that there be no misunderstanding on this point, He is stating that regardless of the yoga path chosen, ultimately it leads to Him. This also includes different Vaishnavas who worship Him in His different forms. Please reread Srila Prabhupada's purport to 4.11 and you will get the idea.

 

 

The mechanics of this systematic path of surrender is the reward "bhajAmy aham". It is what all men want; therefore they will eventually perfect their surrender in order to maximize the reward. The system, the path, the relationship is thus designed.

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what it is you are trying to say here. It sounds like another attempt to say that Christians will get the surrender by the religion they practice.

 

All that is said in this verse is that as one surrenders to Krishna, so He accordingly rewards them. Thus all men follow his path in all respects. Hence, those who are successful j~naanis get impersonal liberation. Those who worship the demigods get promotion to the planets of the demigods. And so on and so forth. Not all such rewards by Krishna are loving surrender - nevertheless, they are a step up from crass materialism (at least in the above examples referred to by Srila Prabhupada in 4.11 purport).

 

yours,

 

- K

 

[Priitaa 0]

 

If you read Chapter 2 and 3 in the original Sanskrit, you can see that Krishna does not explicitly emphasize Himself as the goal in every single verse. Rather, you see Him only doing this maybe 2-3 times at most per chapter. Since Krishna wants that there be no misunderstanding on this point, He is stating that regardless of the yoga path chosen, ultimately it leads to Him. This also includes different Vaishnavas who worship Him in His different forms. Please reread Srila Prabhupada's purport to 4.11 and you will get the idea.

 

 

 

I don't want to get into your overall debate, but just this one point.... I don't know what version of the Gita you are reading, and it is nice you can read original Sanskrit, but we all know that so many will translate it differently from the next. That is why it is important to read it "As It Is," or translated by a pure devotee, otherwise we only get our own materially influenced understandings as per the teacher who first taught us Sanskrit for example. Anyway, no offense intended. In Prabhupada's Gita we read repatedly where Krishna emphasizes Himself as the goal. I have not torn those particular chapters apart, but I know that this is a major point in the purest of the pure translations. So please give Prabhupada's words on this a place. Thanks for loaning an ear.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

<< On one side we condemn saints like Tuslidas as impure, but we hold the Koran and Bible to be pure and equal to the Bhagavatam. >>

 

dear jn das ji,

 

are you saying the above as an iskcon authority?

Or, is it your opinion about iskcon?

 

if koran and bible are equal to bhagavatam,

then there was no need for you to accept KC.

you were just fine as an . or a muslim.

why changed then please?

 

which muslim religious authority /scripture has said koran or bible is same as bhagavatam please?

 

please give some concrete quotes and referances.

 

as far as i know, koran is 180 degree apart from gita and bhagavatam. bible gives no knowlege about the soul and supersoul as gita does.

 

if you really belive koran is same as bhagavatam, then why the followers of one are brute and violent and aggresors since the birth of islam, and the followers of the other are most tolerant please?

 

were you a muslim before you were a HK please?

would you like to live in divine saudi arabia or divine iraq or divine afghanistan please?

why divine india chosen please?

 

jai sri krishna!

 

 

[Guest guest]

You have misunderstood what jndas was saying.

 

He was not makeing the statement (as his own) that:

 

<< On one side we condemn saints like Tuslidas as impure, but we hold the Koran and Bible to be pure and equal to the Bhagavatam. >>

 

But was making the point that such statements are ludicrous. Then saying (from his viewpoint) that:

 

"Such a ludicrous position (that saints like Tuslidas are impure, but that the Koran and Bible are pure and equal to the Bhagavatam) is propogated by many devotees in the name of harmony and broadmindedness."

 

He then said that when such things are done by devotees in general or devotees in Iskcon (in the name of harmony and broadmindedness) it is only fair that the Hindu community

criticize them for such absurd views.

[Guest guest]

 

I don't want to get into your overall debate, but just this one point.... I don't know what version of the Gita you are reading, and it is nice you can read original Sanskrit,

 

 

I read Bhagavad-Gita As It Is, with the original Sanskrit text and translations by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. This should have been obvious from what I wrote earlier:

 

 

If you read Chapter 2 and 3 in the original Sanskrit, you can see that Krishna does not explicitly emphasize Himself as the goal in every single verse. Rather, you see Him only doing this maybe 2-3 times at most per chapter. Since Krishna wants that there be no misunderstanding on this point, He is stating that regardless of the yoga path chosen, ultimately it leads to Him. This also includes different Vaishnavas who worship Him in His different forms. Please reread Srila Prabhupada's purport to 4.11 and you will get the idea

 

 

 

- K

[Priitaa 0]

K-

 

You are in a mood of debate. Your "this should be obvious" comment is evidence of it, especially since I all ready pointed out that I had not taken apart the chapters of the Gita "you" mentioned. Please try to hear instead of tearing apart posts. Good luck.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[theist 1]

perhaps k_ will hear

[gHari 0]

K,

 

In a quote in this thread Srila Prabhupada suggests that Lord Krsna does include philosophical developments like Buddhism and Advaita in "mama vartmAnuvartante manuSyAH pArtha sarvazaH". He is also quoted: "Never mind whether he is following a principle of philosophical research, whether he is following the yogic principle, or whether he is following philanthropic work or political leadership or... So many things are going on, but the whole thing is targeted toward KRSNa."

 

This is from the vantage point of the mahabhagavata and Sri Krsna, so we have to reach for the swan-like position to comprehend. Everyone is on the way to Krsna, some not so directly. Invalid philosophies and invalid following become simply fruitive activities, to be evaluated and corrected by the laws of karma in the modes of nature (those who worship ghosts take birth ... etc). But it's all Krsna's mercy designed specifically for our capability.

 

This is the second time you have put these statements in my mouth 'Where I disagree with your position is the idea that "all men follow my path in all respects" somehow validates other, non-Vedic religions'. I corrected you once clearly.

 

I leave you alone with your words. You seem unable to understand mine or Srila Prabhupada's now.

 

gHari

 

[Guest guest]

 

In a quote in this thread Srila Prabhupada suggests that Lord Krsna does include philosophical developments like Buddhism and Advaita in "mama vartmAnuvartante manuSyAH pArtha sarvazaH". He is also quoted: "Never mind whether he is following a principle of philosophical research, whether he is following the yogic principle, or whether he is following philanthropic work or political leadership or... So many things are going on, but the whole thing is targeted toward KRSNa."

 

 

As previously mentioned by me, Krishna is either referring to just the yoga paths, or all paths, and in the latter case, no validity is ascribed to any of them necessarily, other than to say that Krishna is the one who rewards according to the level of surrender.

 

Again, there is nothing here to substantiate the credibility of any non-Vedic religion. All this verse is saying is that the results of sacrifice performed by all men come from Krishna according to one's level of surrender. If false doctrines are included in the "all men follow my path in all respects" then this logically includes even negative results of religious practice.

 

regards,

 

- K

[Guest guest]

 

I don't want to get into your overall debate, but just this one point.... I don't know what version of the Gita you are reading, and it is nice you can read original Sanskrit,

 

 

 

 

You are in a mood of debate. Your "this should be obvious" comment is evidence of it, especially since I all ready pointed out that I had not taken apart the chapters of the Gita "you" mentioned. Please try to hear instead of tearing apart posts. Good luck.

 

 

 

Please try to read what has been written instead of tearing apart posts without reading them.

 

Thank you.

 

- K

[gHari 0]

K, Govindaram intially asked why didn't Krsna say that He is the only way. I noted that He did in 4.11. There was never any discussion about the validity of any non-vedic religious heritage. You must be confused with some other thread.

 

gHari

[gokulkr 1]

when i studied the guru-parampara chain in "Bhagavath gita as it is" By Srila Prabhupada.

 

There i saw Lakshmipathi next to Sri Vyaasa thirtha.

 

i want to know whether "Sri Lakshmipathi" was direct disciple of "Sri Vyaasa Thirtha" ? was sri lakshmipathi directly instructed by sri vyaasa thirtha ?

 

pls tell

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri krishna

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krishna

 

It says in the Bible, and Christians always quote the verse,

why would Jesus Christ say that, and Krishna with His complete sweetness Not say He is the only way?

 

 

I haven't got time to read thru three pages of posts, so maybe this has been covered, but maybe it hasn't. Anyway...... I have read studies made by those who examined the original words of Christ, the original Bible, which is not what we have, and they claim Christ did not say HE is the only way, but that his METHOD is the only way. Now if you look at his method, his original one, he advocates dancing in the streets, playing horns or instruments, while glorifying God! As well as just glorifying God at any time. Hmmmmm sounds familiar to me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

"Christ is willing to take his sincere followers to Christ-loka where he will give them further lessons on the Personality of Godhead"

 

Christian: There is one book called The Way of The Pilgrim, about a Christian who chants the name of Jesus on beads.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, the Catholics also use beads. Some Christians may chant the name of Christ.

 

Christian: This man was chanting the name of Jesus, his heart was growing soft, and he was feeling ecstasy, great love for Jesus.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Then he may attain the position of Jesus, at most. It may be that in his attempt for perfection, his growth is finished there, in the eternal paraphernalia of Jesus. He may remain there. If he has found his fullest satisfaction, he is fated to be there. ~The Search For Sri Krsna Reality The Beautiful~