Not gurus, Not ritviks - then what?

[Guruvani 0]

I have noticed there there is a class of devotee in these forums who reject the ISKCON gurus, reject the ritvik doctrine and reject the GBC. They seem to feel that they have a direct connection to Prabhupada though they have never been formally initiated by Prabhupada or anyone else as far as that goes.

My curiousity is; if they do not accept the ritvik doctrine, do not accept the ISKCON diksha gurus, do not accept the GBC - then what is their proposal for how ISKCON should continue in the absence of Srila Prabhupada.

Do they propose that some Gaudiya Math type guru become the new acharya of ISKCON even though they all have severe differences with Srila Prabhupada? Do they propose that ISKCON be dismantled or dispersed?

If we reject ritvik and ISKCON gurus both, then what is the proposed alternative to these two solutions for the future of ISKCON?

[theist 1]

Everything should be centered on Srila Prabhupada. As his disciples advance one or more of them will become genuine guru and be revealed by his self-effulgence. Such souls may start their own missions or remain in Iskcon association in some ways.

 

Iskcon is not the center, Krsna is. The flow of Krsna consciousness may be stronger in one location for a time and then more strongly perceived in another at a later date. I feel it is more important to follow that flow then to try to mold the sampradaya into the form of an instituion.

 

Institutions may form around the flow of Krsna consciousness. But Krsna conscious is not subject to being molded and compromised with, just for the sake of the convience of the institution. To do so, appears to me, to be placing more importance on the energy than the energetic.

 

Some of us would like to see Iskcon exist with an emphasis on Prabhupada Vani and without the formality of ritvikness.

 

Prabhupada spoke that sometimes diksa guru is not available and in that case just continue with siksa.

 

All the hubbub over the issue to us appears like a collosal disturbance. Zonal gurus and guru's by vote and ritviks, just so much noise to me.

 

Have some diksa for Deity worship and drop the *I'm your eternal guru* game unless you yourself are established in eternity.

 

This would make for a conducive atmosphere for the topmost devotee to manifest in.Just continue working on cultivating personal sincereity and attachment to Krsna. Then you can ask that purified soul how to proceed from there when he does manifest.

 

Ritviks strike me as a confused lot. On one hand they say siksa contains the potency but insist on formalities that are unnecesary. Just hear Prabhupada.

 

Just my view.

[gHari 0]

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[Guest guest]

No man cometh unto the Father Krishna except through Guruvani. Praise the Lord most High .Guruvani is our most beloved benefactor ,friend and wellwisher of everyone.Just see how glorious is Guruvani.He is the whole world of nasty eva.

[Krsnanatha 0]

I know some folks who have become attracted to Krsna Consciousness but are realistic about where they are at. They have seen how many people maintain the strict vows of initiation and are not ready to sit in a fire sacrifice and swear in front of the Dieties and devotees to never stray into material life again. From this position such persons take shelter of the books Prabhupada (and in some cases the siksha of other Paramahamsas as well) with no immediate concern for who will be their diksha connection.

It is not the recommended path from a sastric view, life can be finished at any second and such delay in making a decisive move could be a source of regret.

This reality taken into account such individuals seem to generally agree that as their bodies age and the level of passion which youth produces subsides they will contemplate making the serious vows and heavy commitments Diksha demands and hopefully be in a position to properly honor such convictions.

I am not promoting or excepting such a stance, merely offering to the discussion that this catagory of Krsna Bhaktas are also there.

I have always been taught and also personally experienced on some level, if one sincerely prays and petitions for real thing in spiritual life whatever the issue at hand may be, real thing Krsna will eventually send.

(Of course sometimes a bit more circuitous then for our liking but He will send.)

[theist 1]

Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion.

__________________

 

I believe the conclusion of this parampara

should be emphasized and not this "offically diksa at all costs" doctrine. So many people have been offically initiated with the expectation that they had to accept whatever body appeared to be next in line only to then be thrown into confusion when they find out that body was inhabited by a less then perfect soul.

 

Better to emphasize siksa and let Supersoul take care of the rest.

 

[gHari 0]

Theist,

 

I've been feeling some guilt for not mentioning this to you earlier. A week or so ago I looked at this quote and another in context in depth, and reached the conclusion that they actually had a different meaning, relating to Arjuna where Prabhupada was explaining how he could be in our disciplic succession without having been formally initiated into the line; not necessarily that he hadn't been initiated at all, but just not in the Gaudiya line.

 

I noticed that you had quickly dismissed my conclusion, but I think if you look at it in context for a while you might see why I reached that understanding.

 

At the time I thought maybe you were a little steamed about seemingly having been accidentally locked out of the forums for quite some time. It wasn't like you to reject something so quickly, at least not without some diplomatic revelation. I should have known that a little steam shouldn't stop me from being honest with a friend. But I now forget what the thread was, unfortunately. Duh, I used the Search function and got it right away CLICK ME JUNUH

 

gHari

[Krsnanatha 0]

We are personalists and what subject and decision beside accepting a guide who is to have eternal ramifications on ones spiritual development, could be of a more personal nature.

I have seen in my few years around this Vaisnava culture an encouragement and concommitant tendency on the part of young Bhaktas (Myself, once included, but since reversed by undeserved, uncalled for grace) to jump at the first possibility, often with unhappy results for all involved.

The "It could be my last day on Earth" premise is there, but it should not be impetus for making poorly thought out choices regarding such a serious resolution as who one will surrender the complete welfare and well being of spiritual life to.

I have seen the desire to "get a new name" as paramount to joining the club, getting in the door, ect...as opposed to the most sober plan a human can execute in this life. Diksha is the equivalent to shoving off on the boldest journey the soul, surrounded by Maya can try to engineer.

Sadly I can recall hearing (fortunately some years past) this sober execution reduced to the deplorable triteness of;

"So and So Swami says he gives first initiation to fire 'em and second to get 'em to stay."

 

I think I must have missed the class that covered that verse.

[gHari 0]

I was busy being Daddy and then suddenly, I entered Govinda's Restaurant and they told me that Srila Prabhupada had left the planet.

 

If circumstances had not been as they were I would now be on my third guru, since we were expected to pick the local external representative of Caitya-guru.

 

I would love to be able to believe in Ritvik because Srila Prabhupada owns my heart, but I just can't.

 

I have seen lots of wonderful things happening in ISKCON - we see it here on the net all the time. I am not desperate thinking that I won't get hooked up officially. Krsna has been kind. He will not let me down.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

1)we have pray krsna and prabhupada to send us a pure devotee to have siksa and diksa

2)in iskcon there are some pure devotees, let us recognise him

3)re-link with gaudya math, searchin for advices and collaboration.... better to change a relatively little regulation but reviving in iskcon the principle of the living guru and fight impersonalritvik

4)there's no need of a FOLIOITIS guruless leadership

[Krsnanatha 0]

Your good self is a perfect example that we have joined the International Society for Krsna Consciousness. Not the International Society for Rules and Regulations.

Krsna is the ultimate autocrat and no box anyone can construct no matter how seemingly well composed of the elements of perfect argument, can confine him.

Sincerity of purpose and dedication is the currency which will pay our way toward the Supreme.

A bit of history from my side.

I originally took Diksha in 1982 from a dedicated (but ultimately immature for such a post) disciple of Prabhupada. At some point years later he was forced to go away for a variety of causes both obvious and concealed. Orphaned I prayed like this;

"Srila Prabhupada I know that I am not your direct diksha disciple but some how I have been left alone here so I am taking shelter of you. You, Srila Prabhupada once told your students that the Grandfather Guru the Param Guru is even more merciful than the Guru himself. So please be so kind upon me and make some new arrangement for me. Please Srila Prabhupada help me out of this dreadful circumstance." I prayed like this every day and night for sometime.

Not that very much long after I began this plea I came in contact with an old dear friend who had a great appreciation for the sweetness that was known as Srila Sridhar dev-Goswami. I will not rail on about Srila Sridhar Maharaja, his qualities are self evident to those who desire to see. I will say unfortunately I had been trained from my earliest days as a Bhakta to be an aparadhe towards him. Not indifferent or disinterested, but actually enimical. In retrospect a very scary thing.

After hearing some nice compliments paid by Srila Prabhupada to Srila Sridhar Maharaja which had to that point been totally concealed from me I had the embarrassing realization. Like an old sixties commercial......From the makers of So and So, the fallen yet, somehow or other qualified Guru comes Sridhar the envious God brother. I realized I had been severely misguided by those I had trusted to tell me what were the rights and wrongs in Vaisnava life. I don't mean to gratuitiously speak bad about the institution but this is sad, factual history.

I love ISKCON, I love the devotees and the Dieties that are ISKCON. But it can't be ignored mistakes were made by the administrative element.

I have never not been allowed to visit an ISKCON temple. I am low key and not antagonistic on this subject. I am of the ilk, "What is the use for stirring up unresolvable fights." But I do know I would not be allowed to live and serve there, merely because of my initiation from Sridhar Maharaja. And as a footnote, when Sridhar Maharaja initially gave diksha to some ISKCON devotees it was understood they would serve in ISKCON. He said, paraphrasing, you are my disciple serving in the mission of Srila Swami Maharaja (Prabhupada). I have always maintained this mood, Srila Sridhar Maharaja sisha, serving in the mission of Srila Prabhupada.

I look to the future when we all realize we're all playing for the same team and gang up on maya instead of one another.

 

 

 

[Guruvani 0]

The original idea for a society of devotees that live together for the purpose of cultivating Krishna conciousness comes from Srila Rupa Goswami. Srila Prabhupada starts The Nectar of Instruction by saying:

"The Krishna consciousness movement is conducted under the supervision of Srila Rüpa Gosvämé".

 

ISKCON was Srila Prabhupada's attempt to make that ideal of Srila Rupa Goswami a reality for devotees all over the world. Beginning with Srila Rupa Goswami there was seen a necessity for devotees to have their own society, their own sub-culture as a microcosm within the ordinary civil society.

Srila Prabhupada was very adament that it was not possible to cultivate Krishna consciousness properly outside of the society of devotees. I believe that it was in the Krishna Book that he said that anyone who thinks they can be Krishna conscious living outside the Krishna consciousness movement is living in a great hallucination.

 

ISKCON is not about "society consciousness" or "rules and regulations" consciousness that has become a popular term used in the devaluing and belittleing of ISKCON. ISKCON is about Prabhupada's answer to Srila Rupa Goswami's call for devotees to combine and unite in a society for the purpose of cultivating and propogating Krishna consciousness.

 

A unified and cohesive society of devotees is the command and call of Srila Rupa Goswami. It is not some neophyte's "society consciousness" that can be attacked and villifed as external and superfluous. The minimizing of the importance of keeping Prabhupada's mission alive and flourishing is very unfortunate and offensive.

 

The success of ISKCON is the success of all the devotess and the failure of ISKCON is the failure to succeed in Prabhupada's mission to establish the devotee society that was the vision of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Failure is not an option!

Splintering and factioning is not an option!

Allowing Prabhupada's antogonists to disrupt and impede his mission is not an option!

Minimizing the importance of ISKCON is not an option!

 

For the disciples of Srila Prabhuapda the only option is to somehow or other unite and work together cooperatively. Sure, ISKCON has become a topheavy bureaucracy with too many by-laws and bureaucrats. That needs to be rectified and ISKCON needs a more fluid and flexible administrative approach.

 

However, the work to build and promote the international society of devotees that Srila Prabhupada established has to be continued, has to be completed and has to be accomplished.

 

If not under the banner of Prabhupada and ISCKON, then what hope is there for establishing this international society of devotees to provide sanctuary and haven for all the suffering devotees in the world?

 

Is Prabhupada's ISCKON going to be pushed by the wayside and rejected for a splintered and scattered alliance with those who have no allegiance or affiliation with ISKCON?

 

Is a catastrophic desertion of Prabhupada for the company of anti-ISKCON Gaudiya Math type sadhus who oppose Prabhupada's innovations the real solution?

 

Prabhupada deserves the right of leading and unifying the international society of devotees. The dispersal and disintegration of ISKCON for a broken, belligerant, antagonisitic variety of sects and cults is not what Prabhuapda envisioned as the fullfillment of Rupa Goswami's vision of an international society of devotees. It is not the fullfillment of Rupa Goswami's vision. It is maya's attempt at impeding the fullfillment of the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

ISKCON was supposed to be about Dhaiva Varnashram - a society and culture of devotees working in a practical way to meet the needs of human society. The act of interfering with the fulfillment of that mission and creating a broken, disjointed, scattered smattering of devotees living within the ranks and confines of ordinary society has nothing to do with the fullfillment of Srila Rupa Goswamis vision for the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Prabhupada wanted to provide a haven, a Shangri-La for devotees. He did not wander about the Earth initiating anyone that walked up to just leave them abandoned and isolated without support, association. temples and service.

He was not a cheater like those people. Prabhupada organized a movement, a society, a sub-culture for devotees to have the tools and facilities to make Krishna consciousness a practical lifestyle instead of a hopeless, impractical and indeed IMPOSSIBLE ideal.

 

If not Prabhuapda, if not ISKCON, then who, what, when and how will there ever be the international society of devotees working together for a common goal?

 

The view that devotees can just be initiated all over the world and then left without any support structure, without any temple and without a Varnashram social structure, is a very feeble and foolish effort that cheats devotees for the sake of someone's personal ambitions.

 

ISKCON is not about society consciousness. It is about fullfilling the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. Disrupting and interfering with ISKCON is nothing less than disrupting and interfering with the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Rejecting ISKCON to chase after some so-called rasika-acharya who has no vision or committment to fullfill this mission of Srila Prabhuapda to provide a working model of Vaishnava society as a sub-culture and counterculture to ordinary society is not helping the mission of Srila Prabhuapda. It is rather obstructing and opposing the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Everybody likes to talk about "love of Krishna" and "rejecting society consciousness for Krishna consciousness", but without the success of ISKCON there will be no "love of Krishna" if all the devotees are imbedded and integrated into ordinary mundane society and surrounded by bad association and not having any meaningful work in the Varnashram culture of a Krishna conscious sub-culture.

 

Talk about society consciousness? Here's your society consciousness - living seperate from ISKCON within the rank and file of ordinary society and claiming to be a lover of Krishna while rejecting the only movement that has the potential to build a practical working model of Varnashram culture that can save us from the Hells we call cities that we are so attached to!

 

Indeed, as Prabhuapda has said in the Krishna Book,

"Anyone who thinks they can be Krishna conscious outside this movement is living in a great hallucination".

 

Lover of Krishna? Or, lover of Maya in the name of rasika acharya?

[Bhaktavasya 0]

Guruvani quoting Prabhupad: "Anyone who thinks he can make advancement outside this movement is living a great hallucination."

 

Srila Prabhupad also said in a purport in CC: "There are many branches of the Caitanya Tree, this International Society for Krishna Consciousness is a one of them."

 

Undoubtedly ISKCON has done much to both spread and defame the wider 'movement' of Lord Caitanya over the past 26 years, but the benediction rays of Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement is not confined to ISKCON.

 

You praise Sridhar Maharaja (and rightly so) but he did not come out of iskcon and many who have left the institution continue to help spread those rays. After all, Krishna Consciousness is non-sectarian, as Prabupad himself always claimed.