The Death of America

[livingentity 0]

I heard that Saddam has killed more muslims than anyone in recent history! People have a short memory - the muslims are up in arms - crying out for this demon dictator to be left alone when it is he who tortures and kills them.

 

The female MIA soldier that the marines just rescue had two broken legs, a broken arm and shot wounds. Now how did she get two broken legs and a broken arm? She was tortured!! An Iraqi witness told one of the marines that this girl was tortured.

 

I am also getting sick of the US getting beat up over this while Saddam tortures his own people then cries foul when someone tries to make him pay.

 

Great analogy - "Cops". I haven't watched that show for a long time but true - mainly domestic violence. That is exactly what Saddam has been perpetrating for years on a large horrid scale.

 

 

 

[livingentity 0]

This is kali yuga. This is the age of quarrel. There will never be real peace. Protect yourself with the armor of the Holy Names.

[Guest guest]

They are in the military because they didn't have much of a choice. Do you think is right to have women in the military? Is that vedic?

Jennifer Lynch joined the service because was her only chance to see the world and get out of dirt poor West Virginia. Most of the inmigrants joined because they may become citizens.

 

We can't compare it with Iraq where crazy Saddam rules.

 

My point was that too many in the military here are not in it because they are warriors, they join voluntarily the service because is the only alternative they see -"the army offered her the best deal"- and the government (R and D) take advantage of it.

 

 

[Guest guest]

It won't be over soon, even if they kill Saddam.

 

Don't you get it?

[livingentity 0]

No one forced them to join. Yes, they do have a choice. There is no draft. Nobody dragged them kicking and screaming into the service.

 

No one is forcing the women to join. These women fought to be equal to the men and so they are now fighting on the front lines - this is what they wanted and they got it!!

 

All of our military in Iraq chose the military and trained to be warriors there. Maybe it was more than they bargained for but they chose it. Personally I am happy that there are people who feel compelled to do this - I am not that brave.

 

They want to be in the military - this is their job and they are doing it well. I pray that they get Saddam quickly with as little life loss as possible.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have nothing else to say. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

addressed students and government officials at the campus Taifla at the University of Nairobi in September 1972.

 

" We are therefore invite the most intelligent men in the world to understand this Krsna conscious philosophy and try to distribute it all over the world....You are trying to develop yourselves, so please develop spiritually, for spiritual development is sound development. Don't imitate the Americans and Europeans, who are living like cats and dogs. Such civilizations built in the consciousness of sense gratification can't stand. The atomic bomb is already there, and as soon the next war breaks out, all their skycrapers and everything else will be finished. Try to understand this from the real viewpoint of human life, the spiritual viewpoint. This is what this Krsna consciousness movement is about. We therefore request you to try to understand this philosophy. Thank you very much".

[theist 1]

>> ....and after they have been killed the world may have a little peace".

 

What about us? <<

 

 

They means in the context of the conversation the jihadis. "What about us" I don't understand this question.

 

This is what I was refering to.

 

SB 6.1.11 lecture NY July 25 71

 

"But that one kind of war causes some disturbances and another kind of war stops it for some time, for the time being, that is not ultimate solution of the problem. Any intelligent man can understand it. "

 

Many people will say all violence is automatically bad. That is unless someone is attacking them, then its "Please get them off me by any means necessaryPlease helpCall the police"!!!

[Guest guest]

Theist,

 

Your quotes from Prabhupada are a poor excuse for justice. Words are always spoken in context. Prabhupada's words do not address time and circumstances.

 

Your logic is like commiting violence on someone and saying he deserved it from a previous birth.

 

Your attention deficit is active again. You forget that America helped make the monster Hussain years ago and there was no outcry to his atrocities then.

 

As pointed out by Enlightened I think, America has violence throughout it's history. Why are you such a blind patriot? What is so great about America that you have to blindly follow? What is it you are following? Freedom? Justice? Concentrate!

 

You show the symptoms of a man who worships the land of his birth; a gross material concept.

 

You try to present yourself as spiritually educated by quoting Prabhupada out of context, but you start with advocating the blame of innocent persons.

 

You cannot blame someone for something he hasn't done and punish him for something you think he's gonna do. You have to deal with people in this life. Not what you think their past lives where.

 

America is guilty 10 times over for what Hussien has done. Her capitalists leaders are all over the world corrupting everything. You think business is just some innocent little activity? It's based on false proprietorship, greed and exploitation. Wake up man! How harder has the rich made your life in the last 30 years?

 

Where is your empathy for the exploitation of other countries and people at the whims of American capitalists? You don't hear about their problems 'cause it is planned that way. Your information is subverted and manipulated by mainstream media.

 

You think Suddam is a bad man and we all agree. We even agree he has it coming. But America is presenting useless political philosophy and dictatorial tendencies in trying to punish the man. It is simply another pretext for exploitation. Study European and American history and how they simply had a tendency to exploit whatever power structures existed for material gian - even and especially religion.

 

And your suppoort of America is more desrerving of a gross materialists than a spiritually enlightened person.

 

Now this greed and explolitation is reaching new heights and all you can say is, "Well done!"

[Guest guest]

"that is not ultimate solution to the problem"

[livingentity 0]

words are ever-fresh and relevant.

 

 

Theist,

 

Your quotes from Prabhupada are a poor excuse for justice. Words are always spoken in context. Prabhupada's words do not address time and circumstances.

 

 

[Guest guest]

living entity,

 

To say words are ever fresh and relevent is to say nothing of the context or meaning of the words.

 

Prabhuipada would preach to Inidans different than Americans. Prabhupada had hopes of ISKCON saving the world by the dissemination of spiritual knowledge and religious practice, yet he adjusted according to time and circumstances. He would hear his disciple's problems before judging on the merit of their problems. This is common sense.

 

When you judge America according to what she says and then again by what she does, you get a very dirty picture. In fact, it is almost entirely dirt.

 

If you were going to pick between the lesser of two evils, it would have to be Saddam.

[livingentity 0]

 

If you were going to pick between the lesser of two evils, it would have to be Saddam.

 

 

Tell that to the citizens of Iraq who have witnessed family and friends being put into wood chippers feet first! The lucky ones were the ones who were put in head first - they died faster!

 

Then there is the torture chamber that our marines located yesterday - it had hooks on the ceilings of one room to hang people from and another room had an electric wire lying on the floor and two tires. The two rubber tires protected the torturer while the victim had to stand on the floor. The room was then flooded and the electric wire plugged in. I do not think this was done out of love!!

 

Until we find these type of things going on inside the White House basement - Saddam is not the lesser of two evils.

 

Are you working? I think they might need some more human shields over in Iraq.

[theist 1]

Human shield? Yes good suggestion. Better hurry the battle for Baghdad may soon be over.

 

This guest probably lives safely in North America somewhere enjoying the leisure of being an armchair critic while never stopping to consider the self sacrifice of others that makes it possible.Criticism is good but so is considering the larger picture first.

 

Nobody has even remotely suggested that America is perfect. But when considering where they would like to live I notice that America's borders are being overwhelmed with immigrants while Iraq with a population of 24 million has 4 million living outside having escaped. Not easy to vote with your feet like that. But millions have.

 

When packing guest don't forget your bullseye T-shirt.

[livingentity 0]

one time opportunity to show your pride and protect dear old misunderstood Saddam! What size shirt do you wear?

 

Excellent point Theist!

 

Nobody has even remotely suggested that America is perfect. But when considering where they would like to live I notice that America's borders are being overwhelmed with immigrants while Iraq with a population of 24 million has 4 million living outside having escaped. Not easy to vote with your feet like that. But millions have.

 

 

No place is perfect - this is the material world - the age of Kali!! But some are far worse than others. We are fortunate to have been placed in this country in these bodies.

[theist 1]

that no one opposing the over throw of Saddam in this war has been able to offer a better solution. Of course we hear the occasional let's talk about it some more in the UN. After 12 years and 17 resolutions youwould think the subject has been well discussed there with no solution to the matter. In any case I think this may be an imporatant story.

 

A fatwa(edict) from a top Shi'ite cleric who once opposed the coalition has now instructed his followers not to interfer with the coalition forces.

 

 

 

Cleric Urges No Resistance as U.S. Moves Into Najaf

Thu April 3, 2003 12:04 PM ET

 

 

By Kieran Murray

NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters) - After battling pro-Baghdad loyalists, U.S. troops moved into the center of Iraq's holy city of Najaf on Thursday, bolstered by an edict from a top local Shi'ite Muslim leader urging people not to interfere with them.

 

U.S. officers said they believed most of the Fedayeen paramilitary fighters loyal to President Saddam Hussein had dropped their equipment and fled -- but that a few were still in the city putting up a fight.

 

"Ideally, we would kill them all," Col. Joseph Anderson, a brigade commander of the 101st Airborne Division, told Reuters. "But if they choose to change their mind and flee, there's not much we can do."

 

The U.S. military said a senior Shi'ite Muslim cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who had been held under house arrest by Saddam's government, had ordered local people in a "fatwa" (edict) not to interfere with the U.S.-led invasion troops.

 

"We believe this is a very significant turning point and another indicator that the Iraqi regime is approaching its end," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told reporters in Qatar.

 

A Reuters correspondent in Baghdad just one week ago saw a fatwa issued by Sistani still pinned to the door of a main Shi'ite mosque in the capital saying Iraqis would "stand together against any invasion."

 

In London, the Shi'ite Al Khoei foundation confirmed the ayatollah's new ruling and said that until now his followers had been "confused" over whether to fight the U.S forces.

 

Najaf, 100 miles south of Baghdad, is one of Iraq's most important religious centers and home to the revered gold-domed Ali Mosque, which contains the tomb of Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet Mohammed.

 

Some Najaf residents appeared alarmed by the actions of the U.S. troops. CNN footage showed soldiers trying to calm a crowd who apparently thought they were planning to seize the mosque.

 

U.S. military sources said one of the two brigades of the 101st Airborne in Najaf had been in negotiations with Sistani about how to govern Najaf in the absence of pro-Saddam forces...

 

 

 

 

...Some civilians waved and smiled at U.S. troops but most looked on blankly or simply took cover in their homes.

 

Ayatollah Sistani, the supreme religious authority at the al-Hawza al-Ilmiyya theological school in Najaf, is one of Iraq's top Shi'ite clerics and his help could be valuable as U.S. troops seek the support of ordinary Iraqis.

 

Shi'ites form a majority in Iraq, and especially in southern areas now largely controlled by U.S.-led forces, but have long been dominated by the Sunni minority, to which Saddam belongs.

 

-------------------------------

 

For those that don't already know Google now has a news section that has hundreds of articles from around the world on many many topics. A great source for world news.

 

 

 

[livingentity 0]

lose their fears of repercussions from their sadistic government we will see more examples like this. Excellent article Theist.

 

Also, as the people lose their fears and feel more comfortable - we hear more and more of the horrors perpetrated on the innocent citizens of Sadistic Saddam's regiem.

 

Just the other day the journalists that had been carted off from their hotel to the most notorious Iraqi prison - the one so well known for the most horrific of tortures - turned up in Kuwait or Jordan (can't remember now).

 

Fortunately they had not been tortured but they told of hearing the screams and the tortures being done. These journalists had to endure the anquish of extreme fear and hearing these things going on - not knowing if they were next.

 

Tell me guest, do you think they would choose to protect Saddam? I think not!! They have personally witnessed both sides and their choice would be a no brainer.

 

I am looking forward to the release of the info from the rescued pow.

 

We have only just begun to hear the horrors of this regiem.

[Guest guest]

living entity,

 

You seem to be very receptive to media coverage. It takes attention from our brain to process information, especially the media coverage of the war where there is all the excitement of death and destruction.

 

I personally have killed my tv, I'm not interested in the official spin on the war.

 

Saddam is a monster. I think we already agree on that. I think we can even agree that it is his karma. But the pretext for punishing him is irrational given the circumstances of history and our own misgivings. This larger picture is a sober one based on universal concepts.

 

A woman is generally very cunning and indirect. You'd think America is run by a bunch of women who are just calculating for their own profit.

 

Why does our government allow arbitration against all established prinicples of freedom and justice? Why do they create this horrible parking conditions in the city and then exploit them by hauling your car away? Why can businesses poison the world and you can't burn leaves in your yard without a permit? Why do they declare an enemy on the other side of the world for you and yet you can't defend yourself on the street from agrressors? This listing could take up this whole board area.

 

Remember that true story Erin Brokovich? You had PGE corporate lawyers sending flyers to local residents poisoned by their toxic pool telling them it was safe. Why? To change their faith and avoid suspicion... because they knew the were to simple or too poor to provide the scientific proof needed for a challenge.

 

Now do you think that kind of activity is any less horrible than some of your examples above?

 

Well, that's exactly what we get in America just about everywhere you turn; lies and deception. And the stakes are often life and death as with this Iraq war.

 

You can kill just as many people with a pen as with atom bombs. Again, America's influence on the world has been thousands of times more devastating than Saddam and his regeim, probably more than all the other countries put together.

 

America is doing the same horror right now that they accuse Saddam of! But they have simple people psyched out "It's not what you think. Let us tell you what to think." Remember Rodney King? Remember how you had so many useless people telling you what you see on video tape is not really happening?

 

Yes, America is the land of corporate wizards. Unfortunately, that little dog who pulls the curtain back as in the "Wizard of Oz" is missing.

 

We are supposed to be able to see universal, spiritual truths beyond the body and it's place of birth. Faith is essential. America does the same activities in subtler forms and then brainwashes people into approval. Practically everything America does fits this pattern. Worldwide, they are destroying the world by decimating the planet and yet everyone approves... democracy, free-enterprise, scientific advancement, blah, blah, blah.

 

I would say this kind of generated faith by the capitalists monsters is much more dangerous than simple monsters like Saddam. Because when you capture peoples faith, you don't need guns and chains or torture, you just need to perpetuate their ignorance.

 

Guess Guest.

[livingentity 0]

are worthless and their handling the past 12 years of this situation is proof positive of it. They are inept wimps!! They will probably go the same way as the League of Nations (or whatever it was called).

 

I would love to hear what guest thinks the solution to this Iraq problem is.

 

The way I see it there are only two ways to go and one is totally unacceptable.

 

1. Leave Iraq alone to continue as it has all this time. Saddam and his boys get to continue to play with the lifes of the Iraqi citizens and quite possible the rest of the world.

 

2. Or we do as we are doing now -

 

What are your solutions Guest?

[Guest guest]

living entity,

 

And then where all this deception and marketing dogma fail, it's time to resort to Saddam's tactics - as they are doing now.

 

You people need a healthier perspective.

[Guest guest]

living entity,

 

You have to ask after all I've said?

 

Guess guest.

[livingentity 0]

have to ask. You have said a lot but I see no answers.

 

 

[theist 1]

and I have to ask also. You point to topics we all know well, but have no bearing on the current situation.

 

The whole material world is more or less based on exploitation of some kind.

 

Let's say at night someone is breaking into your house and you dial 911 for help. Do you then start questioning if the policemen that will be sent to rescue you are virtuous or not? No you asked them to please come quickly.Hopefully all will agree that rescuing a victim from being held hostage and tortued is a virtuous act in itself. Does the victim care if the rescuer also wants to be known as a hero? Or that he may be motivated by the reward money? No, not at all. Only the sideline critics have the luxury of mulling over such considerations.

 

Try to bring your awareness into the present time and circumstances. More specifically into the position of one of Saddam's victims. If you can do that you may be able to get a sense of where Living Entity, others and I are coming from.

[Enlightened 0]

No body wants to go to war, but like it was said in the past posts, if you go into the military of USA, you get alot of benefits. Like, the veterans get huge amounts of money for college education and stuff.

 

Anyway, you can get drafted, the country has a law where the person can get drafted into the army whether he likes it or not, but it is only limited to males.

 

Women in USA never get drafted, lucky bunch of people eh? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

but Women can go into the military but most of them will not fight , they work as doctors or pilots for shipping missions etc. They won't fight because it is said that it reduces the military moral and improves the moral of the opposing army .

 

For example, the opposing army is muslim and most of the muslims are sexists so they say : HAHAH we are fighting against some bunch of girls. So, they almost never fight.

 

 

I saw this in DISCOVERY channel. cool huh?

 

 

Sudszy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Guest guest]

No bearing on the current situation theist? No bearing for blind patriots with tunnel vision. You say you all know it, but it doesn't fit into your equation? Well that's not very rational.

 

Your policemen scenario is not the only possibility. You could take care of the intruder yourself (even if that's against the law). Waiting for the police to arrive may be a sucker's game. Guess it depends on your neighborhood (and the wealth therein).

 

Again, your example does not cover the example of misplaced faith - which has very broad applications these days. You should not want to be saved from someone who really doesn't have your empathy or interest at heart. They may just go through the motions and not save you anyway. Where are the police in many gangland shootings? They think just let them kill each other. Your example certainly doesn't fit there. Nor does it fit in many college campus rapes or innumerable other examples.

 

Even during an emergency, people weigh their options and make their choices. If you misplace your faith, it could cost you your life.

 

Some people would rather die than get help from rascals. This too happens. It is a high moral ground that really just subverts your so-great example.

 

Boy are you a hard nut. Empathize with Saddam's victims? I'm empathizing with all suppressed people in the world. You sound like some news reporter or something who takes it for granted the new is what the boss makes it.

 

These topics of world-wide empathy and capitalists exploitation have no bearing on the situation? Purposes are subsumed under larger purposes - like going for the oil.

 

I'm repeating this for slow people...

 

"WE ARE OVER THERE DOING THE VERY ATTROCITIES WE PRETEND TO CONDEMN."

 

And it is yet to be seen if we will even get Saddam. We all know what happened - or didn't happen - with the Bin Laden thing.

 

So what have we really accomplished in Afghanastan. Just another blunder. The blunder of this Iraqi mess is evident from the start. There will always be some people that just don't get it while declaring others don't get it.

 

Why don't you bring your awareness to present time and circumstances and see how the world is being victimized by America? My country right or wrong?

 

Guess Guest.