Srila BV Svami Prabhupad is a nitya sakhi

[Guest guest]

 

I've heard this, too, but only from those who follow Srila Narayana Maharaja. There does seem to be a tradition that the oldest son light the funeral pyre, but I don't know of anything beyond that.

 

I do think that one of the points gleamed from the samadhi ritual was the intimacy between one vaisnava and another and the trust and confidence shown by Swami Maharaja in Narayana Maharaja to perform it. One also can see the vast correspondence between Swami Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja (however that which remains was only a fraction of those actually had, due to errors on both sides. I do know the brahmacari at the Math who mistakenly, cleaning out his room, discarded many of the letters swami maharaja wrote to Srila Gurudeva)

 

 

When asked about how to conduct things after his departure, Srila Prabhupada told us we could ask Narayana Maharaja about the last rites, etc. because he's familiar with such things, and we were obviously not. And he said we could consult Srila B. R. Sridhar Maharaja for philosophical inquiries. It should be clear from Srila Prabhupada's instructions over many years that he desires that his disciples--all of them--serve as his successors. That's natural, traditional, and proper. They're the ones he trained. They're the ones who responded to his call to give up everything and go everywhere to spread the sankirtan movement.

 

You really contradict yourself a few ways here. You say that Swami Maharaja wanted all of his disciples to succeed him, yet you tell us that he wanted his noninitiated disciples to place him into samadhi and that we should go to someone other than his direct disciple to consult on philosophical issues? Moreover, obviously all of his disciples are going to have different opinions on many issues so how can they come up with a definitive conclusion. Indeed, one needs not go far to ascertain this, just look at the GBC. I would agree he wanted his disciples to succeed him, but not in the exact literal sense you mentioned. Perhaps to succeed him by maintaining his legacy, but not without proper guidance and siksa. Guru is one, 'his call' does not just mean Swami Maharaja's call, and ISKCON does not just mean ISKCON, inc. My Gurudeva also responded, rather vehemently, to the call of our Parama Gurudeva Srila Bhaktiprajana Kesava and gave up everything. That is a REAL disciple of Guru and he is spreading the sankirtan movement in ISKCON.

 

 

I've met Narayana Maharaja many times, here in Hawaii and in California, as well as in Vrindavan in 1982. I study many of his books, and I'm grateful that he has engaged devotees in putting them together and distributing them. And I'm grateful to him for the help and guidance he has given so freely to so many of my Godbrothers and -sisters, and to their children, whom ISKCON has largely failed, sometimes rather spectacularly. I have a great deal of respect for him, and I think that his giving his all in his later years to going everywhere to instruct devotees is a wonderful example to everyone. However, I'm not his disciple. And I think the suggestion by some of his disciples that he is Srila Prabhupada's designated successor is an affront to all those who, however imperfectly, have dedicated their lives to his service.

 

I am glad that you have such an appreciation for Srila Gurudeva however your claim that his consideration by his disciples of being a successor is an affront to those who have dedicated their lives to Srila Prabhupada is clearly shallow and unthoughtout. First we have to understand why he would be considered a 'successor'. Siksa Guru is supposed to deepen the relationship between the disciple and his original diksa guru. Because these disciples of Swami Maharaja, and others who grew up in ISKCON feel they have been brought closer to Swami Maharaja by Srila Gurudeva is the reason why they choose to consider him their Siksa Guru. I don't prefer the successor term, because that implies that Prabhupada's importance would be diminished, which is certainly NOT the case. Believe me, if Prabhupada's sisyas did not feel that they were brought closer to their original Guru I doubt they would be following him. Indeed, our Srila Gurudeva has indeed made Prabhupada's importance and life ever more glorious. I don't think I would have pursued Gaudiya Vaisnavism if I hadn't met Srila Gurudeva, and I do believe that this is something which Srila Prabhupada appreciates as well.

 

 

At the same time, I have often shared my strong conviction that those who make a campaign of vilifying him (and others--both outside ISKCON and within) don't have far to look if they want to know why their devotional creepers aren't actually growing as they should. And I agree with Deborah that Devarshirat's posts fall short of the cramming that Ksamabuddhi complains of. His post doesn't insist that Srila Narayana Maharaja is Srila Prabhupada's successor; he admits it's something he hear, and he asks for further information. Let's ratchet the discussion down and avoid turning this thread into a festival of nama-aparadha.

 

Indeed, to criticize an advanced vaisnava is the worst possible offense.

[stonehearted 0]

 

I do think that one of the points gleamed from the samadhi ritual was the intimacy between one vaisnava and another and the trust and confidence shown by Swami Maharaja in Narayana Maharaja to perform it.

 

I believe the word you mean to use is word is "gleaned." I don't deny, or mean to diminish, the relationship between Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja. To suggest that their relationship was more intimate, however, than his relationship with those who gave up so much to serve his vision is to demonstrate ignorance of his character.

 

One also can see the vast correspondence between Swami Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja (however that which remains was only a fraction of those actually had, due to errors on both sides. I do know the brahmacari at the Math who mistakenly, cleaning out his room, discarded many of the letters swami maharaja wrote to Srila Gurudeva)

This is not a particularly useful argument: arguing on the basis of evidence that, for whatever reason, doesn't exist. Let it go.

 

 

You really contradict yourself a few ways here. You say that Swami Maharaja wanted all of his disciples to succeed him, yet you tell us that he wanted his noninitiated disciples to place him into samadhi and that we should go to someone other than his direct disciple to consult on philosophical issues?

What contradiction? He said himself that he wanted all of his disciples to carry on his work. Asking Narayana Maharaja to carry out the samadhi ceremony does indicate confidence in him, especially to show us how this should be done. He's a senior man, a personal friend, and a long-time confidant. Asking him to do so was at least an expression of affection. And why is it contradictory to cite Srila Prabhupada's own instruction to several disciples that we consult his senior Godbrother, In whom he had on several occaisions expressed such confidence that he asserted that he considered SSM a siksa guru?

 

[Guest guest]

 

I believe the word you mean to use is word is "gleaned." I don't deny, or mean to diminish, the relationship between Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja. To suggest that their relationship was more intimate, however, than his relationship with those who gave up so much to serve his vision is to demonstrate ignorance of his character.

 

I think you fail to realize that the relationship between advanced Vaisnavas is not so external that they maybe recorded in nauseating amounts of written record. The only ones that can claim to know the extent of Srila Prabhupada and my Srila Gurudeva's relationship are Them, and the disciples they've chosen to reveal it to. I've been in many classes of my Gurudeva and many many Senior Prabhupada Disciples classes, and never have I encountered such pastimes of Srila Prabhupada so intimate and endearing as the ones I've heard from them.

 

 

 

This is not a particularly useful argument: arguing on the basis of evidence that, for whatever reason, doesn't exist. Let it go.

 

 

Can't let go... There remains ample evidence. It has even been published. Download letters from america, it's all there. Check out www dot purebhakti dot com go to the library

 

 

What contradiction? He said himself that he wanted all of his disciples to carry on his work. Asking Narayana Maharaja to carry out the samadhi ceremony does indicate confidence in him, especially to show us how this should be done. He's a senior man, a personal friend, and a long-time confidant. Asking him to do so was at least an expression of affection. And why is it contradictory to cite Srila Prabhupada's own instruction to several disciples that we consult his senior Godbrother, In whom he had on several occaisions expressed such confidence that he asserted that he considered SSM a siksa guru?

 

 

What contradiction? You're telling me that you think Srila Prabhupada wanted you to all be successors, and at the sametime consult other senior vaisnavas but not accept a Siksa Guru? Right.. we should all be successors, and as misguided post '77 sannyasis and brahmacaris drop like flys in the ocean of Maya without taking shelter of a bonafide siksa guru. What contradiction? You think Prabhupada would suggest consulting a vaisnava but not taking shelter in them as Guru?

 

 

I'm really tempted to say, Duh!" but I'll let it go. That's why he wants us to consult with more experienced devotees. His example: Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja of Navadvipa.

 

 

Isn't that what happened when Prabhupad was here? You'd ask senior devotees any questions, etc. and if an authoritative conclusion was needed you would ask the Acarya, i.e. Srila Prabhupada. That's what Srila Prabhupada meant, he wanted you all to suceed in that sense, but still be under the shelter of a bonafide Guru.

 

 

I don't know what "exact, leteral sense" you are inferring here. Let me say it more plainly: He wants all of us to carry on his mission in every sense possible. Yes, he wants us to be aware of and honest about our real position, our limitations. But he repeatedly exhorted us all to become his successors. And although I join you in not being excited about that word, when someone else asked him who would succeed him, he said explicitiy that we all would.

 

 

How can one claim to succeed Prabhupada when most people don't even meet Rupa Goswami's outlined qualifiication 'vaco vegam' iti. You think that just by being 'aware and honest' about your own limitations qualify you to succeed Srila Prabhupada? Disgusting.

 

 

No--you just didn't read it carefully. I didn't say anything about your gurudeva's being a successor. I conceded that he clearly is by my gratitude for his working so hard in the last part of his life to help carry out Prabhupada's work. My exact words were "Srila Prabhupada's designated successor." The implication is, as we've heard too often from some of Srila Narayana Maharaja's more zealous proponents, is that he is the successor to Srila Prabhupada. I think that's what Ksamabuddhi was complaining about.

 

 

There are many pure devotees who are successors to Prabhupada. I will concede that much. Certainly those like Mahabhagavat Swamis BR Sridhara, BP Puri, BB Tirtha clearly are. But to think that YOU and many of his followers succeed him is absolutely ridiculous. Indeed you succeed him by the fact that you are lit. here after him, but connotatively speaking, you and the majority of his followers don't. We don't succeed Srila Prabhupada, we strive to serve and deepen our relationship with him by taking shelter of a senior siksa guru.

 

 

I've made an exception to a self-imposed ban on responding much, if at all, to folks who refuse to identify themselves in some way. Many here have user names adopted in years past, but we've gotten to know them well enough that we do know who they are. Although I've kept the username I foolishly signed on with years ago, anyone who has been here for any length of time knows who I am, where I live, and probably a good bit of my history. If you prefer to hide behind your "guest" status and not even register with a fake name, like many of us, I'll probably just let any other comments of yours go.

 

 

I am a disciple of my Guru Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja. Any other of my bodily identification is meaningless.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

There are many pure devotees who are successors to Prabhupada. I will concede that much. Certainly those like Mahabhagavat Swamis BR Sridhara, BP Puri, BB Tirtha clearly are. But to think that YOU and many of his followers succeed him is absolutely ridiculous. Indeed you succeed him by the fact that you are lit. here after him, but connotatively speaking, you and the majority of his followers don't. We don't succeed Srila Prabhupada, we strive to serve and deepen our relationship with him by taking shelter of a senior siksa guru.

 

 

Thats big talk for a punk that comes in anonymously blabbing all kinds of crap about being a disciple of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Venom like that proves that you aren't the disciple of anyone except Mayadevi.

 

It's that kind of venon from the groupies of Narayana Maharaja which shows that you really haven't learned anything except how to be a smart ass and criticize devotees that are very much senior to you.

 

Stonehearted is Babhru das and he has been a strict follower of Srila Prabhupada for over 35 years.

 

So, you are flapping your offensive mouth to a very nice Vaishnava who is a gentleman and Vaishnava.

 

It is bitter diatribes like your last post that proves that you people are just as rude and offensive and anyone that you are disparaging with your hateful remarks.

[Guest guest]

Babhru dasa... from san diego? A prof at SDSU or something like that? I think you would sometimes give classes in San Diego ISKCON temple when I was a lil' kid.

 

Well, I apologize for my tone, but I certainly stick to what I have said and firmly believe it.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Babhru dasa... from san diego? A prof at SDSU or something like that? I think you would sometimes give classes in San Diego ISKCON temple when I was a lil' kid.

 

Well, I apologize for my tone, but I certainly stick to what I have said and firmly believe it.

 

Well, then you are inviting criticism and unfavorable opinions about your own guru.

 

You really don't have the knowledge, experience or realization to pretend to judge that none of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada are fit to succeed Srila Prabhupada.

 

Now, if you were all-knowing, omniscient and all powerful then you might have some right to be so judgemental about all the senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

But, since you are just a fallen soul groping through ignorance and illusion, you really have no right to pretend to know who is fit to succeed Srila Prabhupada and who isn't.

 

If you don't keep such smart-ass remarks to yourself, then you are just begging others to open up and talk all sort of bad talk about your guru.

 

So, the cycle is a vicious cycle.

 

Better to just keep your mouth shut about pretending to know the qualifications of others and just join the debates and discussions on philosophy and tradition.

[Guest guest]

BTW, the 'you' was the general 'you ISKCONites' not as in 'you' Babhru Prabhu. And when I use the word 'to succeed' as in 'to succeed someone', I specifically mean to succeed someone in the line of the Guru Parampara. So if you think I'm absurd for saying what I have previously mentioned, perhaps we are misunderstanding one another.

[Guest guest]

BTW, Guruvani, if you really think I am arrogant about telling devotees whether they are qualified or not to succeed Srila Prabhupada, fine, then I am. But, at least I do submit myself to be trying to be under the guidance of some Siksa Guru, unlike some other disciple of Srila Prabhupada who would think himself fit to succeed his Guru. That's arrogance, perhaps of its worst and most sickening type.

[Guest guest]

The tone of the preaching from Srila Narayana Maharaja's sangha sure seems to have changed in the last decade.

 

As best as I can tell, the defining moment was when he awarded sannyasa to Prema Prayojana dasa. From that point onward, increasing numbers of ambitious men who had exhausted their opportunities for advancement within ISKCON began to turn up within Srila Narayana Maharaja's sangha. Some brought with them the same old ISKCON pathologies, and have made Srila Narayana Maharaja's sangha very unpleasant for many of those who became his disciples before the year 2000, or who never had any ISKCON involvement before coming to their gurudeva.

 

Most who have been Srila Narayana Maharaja's disciples for 10 years or more are perfectly happy to acknowledge that such Vaishnavas as Srila Jayapataka Maharaj, Srila Tripurari Maharaj, and many other Gaudiya sannyasis are authentic representatives of guru-tattva for many disciples. Of course, there are all sorts of individual, personal circumstances. But that's exactly the point -- neither you nor I can know the heart of someone who "rejected" one guru for another. It's all very personal. Meanwhile, many of Srila Gurudeva's newer sannyasis are very much caught up in bureaucratic institutional consciousness, at the expense of the personal and individual. It's very disheartening to many devotees.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Uh.. if one of Srila Prabhupad's disciples were fit to succeed Him, you'd think that Prabhupada would have mentioned it, at least once and perhaps thus save all the post '77 disasters that occured?

 

Oops, guess not.

 

Well, I have heard from some very senior devotees that Keshava Maharaja directly instructed Narayana Maharaja to never accept disciples.

 

So, what's up with that?

Why is he initiating disciples when his guru told him to never accept his own disciples?

 

Srila Prabhupada told many times that any disciple that followed the regulative principles and chanted his rounds regularly could become spiritual master.

 

That is why he intiated so many sannyasis.

These sannyasis that he intiated we supposed to become spiritual masters in succession from Srila Prabhupada.