What learned Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

March 25, 2003

another one

http://swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_two/m81.html

March 25, 2003

here is jaduranis rebuttal

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0005/ET30-5975.html

March 25, 2003

what i find interesting is that jadurani states that Narayana Maharaja cahnges her mind ,she used to think

that Srila Prabhupada was a gopa.

Her reasoning is based on the concept promoted by many,

that the goal is to be a manjari,and any rasa other then that is less.

that is the mistake, those who have no actual experience

with Radha Krishna try and act as authorities on the subject, and mess it up.

When Krishna tells Arjuna that no one is closer to him

then Arjuna, he means it.

when Rupa goswami (who is accepted as rupa manjari),

preys that he can instead develop love for Krishna

EXACTLY like that of a young boy for a young girl,

he means EXACTLY what he says.

when Srila Prabhupada (see Tripuraris articles)

writes what he does, he means it.

When Sanatana goswami writes that the highest destination

for the jiva(brhat bhagavatamrtam) is as a gopa,

he is not hiding anything,he means what he says.

those who have an external appreciation of Vraja lila

and who insist that Srila Prabhupadas writings

are not suffecient for the highest realizations,

or that they somehow

fancy themselves gopis, and then they repeat

more often then Srila Prabhupada did ,rasa lila

katha , those people should have said such things

directly to Srila Prabhupada, What do you

think would have been the response ?

the things that Narayana Maharaja has said,

if it is true, are reprehensible.

Did Bhaktivinode insist that his preaching was somehow

deeper and higher then the previous acharyas ?

Did Bhaktisiddhanta say that his father was not teaching the highest things, like he was doing ?

Did Bhaktivedanta say that he was teaching higher deeper siddhanta then his guru ?

Yet Narayana Maharaja does this, this is not acceptable

by any means, this is simply unheard of in the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

who is the greatest teacher in Gaudiya Vaisnava history ?

who has fullfilled Mahaprabhus and Bhaktivinodes vision ?

who has spread the maha mantra to every town and village ?

who has inundated the entire world in Krishna Bhakti ?

Any Gaudiya Vaisnava who claims that they are teaching something

superior to Srila Bhaktivedanta cannot be taken seriously , this has never been done to any acharya, what to speak of the greatest Acharya in history.

March 25, 2003

Jadurani makes the mistake of thinking that the gopas

are not involved in madhurya rasa.

therefore she insists that Srila prabhupada must be a

gopi because the guru is on the highest platform of rasa.

All wrong, gopas are in madhurya rasa, she needs to read the plays of Rupa goswami, there the rasa is shown

between the gopis(all expansions of Radha) and the gopas.

They are engaged in maduryha rasa together,no one

is excluded.

the reality is that the gopis are enjoying madhurya rasa with the gopas, Krishna is not sufficient for them, Why ?

Radha and Krishna are one and the same person,the gopis are

all expansions of Radha,and are also non different

from Krishna.

the result ? the real rasa is between the gopis and gopas,

Radha is said to be only with Krishna, The gopis are with the gopas, all the gopis are non different

from Radha Krishna,-- the rasa between the gopis and Radha

and Krishna is illusory, they are all one and the same

supreme personality of Godhead,and cannot enjoy

rasa except with another actual real person,..the gopas.--

this is simple logic that eludes those who try to understand

Krishna lila without proper guidance, they misunderstand

the madhurya pastimes to be all about

the rasa between Radha ,Krishna, and the gopis,

which is simply impossible, they are all the same

person, ONLY with another person is real rasa

experienced, this is real rasa tattva, any other

claim is simply illogical and impossible.

Kishalaya · March 26, 2003

Jay Nityaananda, Jay Gaurachandra!

Since I have not yet even scratched the surface of

bhakti, my saying anything would be inappropriate. However

in my insignificant opinion there are multifarious

bhaavas in which a particular bhakta can be situated. It

is true that Gourachandra gave the highest conception of

bhakti which the gosvamis profusely propagated, however

we should also know that one of the associates of

Gouranga Himself, Murari Gupta, was tortured by the fact

that Gouranga asked him to worship Krishna. The fact was

that Murari Gupta's ishta deva was Sri Ramachandra. He fell

at Gouranga's feet to declare his inability to forsake

Sri Ramachandra. Gouranga congratulated Murari Gupta and

said that He was only testing his attachment to his ishta

deva.

Thus we must accept that there may be persons who are

situated in other bhaavas. They feel extremely agitated if

they get a feeling that how they worship the Lord is not

correct swinging between spiritual order and spiritual

attachment.

I have (casually) read one writing by Bhakti Vinod Thakur

which says that when a Guru gives a siddha deha to a

disciple, then if the siddha deha does not match the ruchi

of the saadhak then chaos can follow. The saadhak may fall

back again to a life of anarthas.

Of course, I have no spiritual understanding. So if I am

wrong in any manner, I stand to be corrected.

Jaya Nitai, Jaya Gour Hari,

Your servant,

Kishalaya

anadi · March 26, 2003

Did Bhaktivinode insist that his preaching was somehow

deeper and higher then the previous acharyas ?

Did Bhaktisiddhanta say that his father was not teaching the highest things,

like he was doing ?

Did Bhaktivedanta say that he was teaching higher deeper siddhanta then his guru ?

Yet Narayana Maharaja does this, this is not acceptable.

by any means, this is simply unheard of in the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

Any Gaudiya Vaisnava who claims that they are teaching something

superior to Srila Bhaktivedanta cannot be taken seriously , this has never been done to any acharya, what to speak of the greatest Acharya in history.

No, not like this.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharajá never said that he would be better than any other acarya .

And particularly not better than Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja. He considered Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja as a senior devotee in all connections, and even accepted Him as one of his siksha gurus.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja was given bhaktivedanta title seven years before Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja, but in that time he used to come to Radha Damodara Mandir and visit Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami at that time. Manchmal Srila BV Narayana M. used to cook for Srila BV Svami M. and than they honoured maha prasadam and make bhajan together.

Srila BV Narayana M was one of those, that convinced SBV Svami to take sannyasi from Srila Bhakti Prajnana Keshav Gosvami, and so they became sannyasi godbrothers, although SBV Narayana Maharaja saw himself as a servant of Srila BV Svami.

An exerpt from the last conversation between SBV Svami Maharaja and SBV Narayana Maharaja

(Vrindavana, India, October 8, 1977)

[because the original conversation is in Bengali, with only small parts in English, it is probably a cassette many have never heard before.

The cassette was kindly provided by the BBT Archives.]

Srila BV Svami M: Narayana Maharaja. He will come tomorrow?

Tamal Krishna Gosvami: He will come when we…(discussing with others). If we pick him up he might come tonight.

Srila BV Svami M: Hmm.

Tamal Krishna Gosvami: If we go just now with the car. Bhakticaru is going just now with the car. Maharaja may come tonight.

(Someone begins to sing govindam adi purusam...)

Tamal Krishna Gosvami: Yeah, Srila Prabhpada. Should we put a little fan on? A little bit.

(The conversation with Srila Narayana Maharaja begins:)

Srila BV Svami M: Prabhupada (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura) had a desire to preach all over the world - in Europe, America…I tried my best to fulfill his desire. Now we should preach together.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes.

Srila BV Svami M: We have got experience that if we endeavor collectively, there is great possibility to spread the message of akara matha: the mission of Mahaprabhu, 'prithvi te ache, everywhere in the world. I have contributed to this end to the best of my ability.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Hmm.

Srila BV Svami M: I wish that my god-brothers forgive my offenses...While preaching, many times we do say things contrary to each other, or we cut each other's philosophical arguments. That happens. Please ask my god-brothers to forgive my offences…(inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: All right.

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Whatever you will order I will accept completely. I consider you as my Guru.

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: It has been done very beautifully. This is the proper way. It's good that you have raised this point - that everyone should protect the mission of Mahaprabhu that you have established in Western countries, by good cooperation. Though you have taught them, still, in the future if everyone helps them, a wonderful movement can be established on the Earth.

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)...I have brought these mlecchas and yavanas. Accepting those who were sent to me, and considering their qualifications and disqualifications, I tried educating them, just to get things going. They learned to their capacity. Things can be done in good cooperation. There is enough land, big big temples, and no shortage of money...(inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: It's proper for everyone to help in this matter. Everything will be still better if they are also humble and try to cooperate with everyone, with each other as well as with other Vaisnavas. I will do my best to help. Whenever and whatever they will ask, I will try my best to help them. Whenever they will call me, any advice they will want, wherever they may want me to go, although my qualification is limited, I will try to help to the best of my ability.

Srila BV Svami M: Are any of my god-brothers in Vrindavana now?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes.

Srila BV Svami M: Who?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Van Maharaja might be there, as well as Indupati Prabhu from Caitanya Gaudiya Matha.

Srila BV Svami M: Any more?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Only these two at the moment.

Srila BV Svami M: Who is Indupati?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Indupati. He comes here often.

Bhakticaru Swami: From Madhava Maharaja's matha?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes. No one else is here.

Srila BV Svami M: Please call both of them. Van Maharaja and him.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: This is very good proposal by you.

Srila BV Svami M: Please sit down. They will call them.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: All right.

Srila BV Svami M: This cutting of arguments happens sometimes...

Srila Narayana Maharaja: These are insignificant matters in such a substantial worldwide mission. A little something here and there is of no consequence. You have done this wonderful preaching work for the benefit of the whole world. There was no self-interest. You did everything only in devotional service to Krishna - for benefitting all people at large.

Srila BV Svami M: It is all by your blessings.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: You have done a wonderful thing. It is necessary to care for and preserve this mission, and see that it is managed skillfully.

Srila BV Svami M: You kindly instruct them on this matter. I'm unable to speak.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes. Please take rest.

Srila BV Svami M: Please sit a little longer.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes. I'm here.

Srila BV Svami M: Your health is all right?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes. You please keep remembering about Krishna. These are all very qualified men. They will manage nicely.

Srila BV Svami M: There is some problem (disturbance) in Mayapura.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: That will all be worked out. The gundas have done that for there selfish motives. Everything will be all right. Some obstacles are always there in any work.

Srila BV Svami M: Twenty thousand people gathered for the meeting. Have you heard anything about it?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes I have heard something. It was painful. The communist party people have done that nonsense. They have done utmost injustice. Now be free to peacefully remember Sri Radha-Krishna and Their sweet pastimes. Your people will take care of the necessities. All will be well by the wish of the Supreme Lord, Sri Krishna. No need to think about it at all.

Srila BV Svami M: Hmm.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: You don't worry.

Srila BV Svami M: You have some affection for me? [This is an Indian expression of love.]

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Affection! What to speak of affection, I regard you as my Guru.

Srila BV Svami M: I know that. That's why I beg you to please forgive my offenses.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: You kindly forgive our offenses, so that our intelligence may be fixed at the lotus feet of Krishna. Please give us this blessing.

Srila BV Svami M: Where is...

Srila Narayana Maharaja: He has gone to Bengal.

Srila BV Svami M:When did he go?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: He went about a month ago. Sesyai has come with me to take your darshan. He has rendered some services to you.

Srila BV Svami M: Brahmachari?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes Sesyai Brahamacari. Sometimes he has cooked for you.

(Srila Narayan Maharaja speaks to the other devotees in Hindi:) He used to cook for Swamiji when he was in Mathura.)

Srila BV Svami M: Where is Tamal?

Devotee: He is just coming, Srila Prabhupada. He is in the other room.

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, I can see that. It is very good that you have returned to Vraja from overseas.

Srila BV Svami M: They wanted to keep me there, but I said, "No". My health is not fit for anymore travel...

(Tamal Krishna Gosvami enters the room)

Srila BV Svami M: Have you consulted with Narayana Maharaja?

Tamal Krishna Gosvami: Yes. This morning. Bhakticaru Swami, Bhaktiprema Swami and Sridhara Swami went to see him, and Narayana Maharaja described the ceremony.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I have told them everything needed to be done. I have said, "Whenever you need me, I'll come here."

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)...When you enter in the gate on the right side?

Tamal Krishna Gosvami: On the entrance on the left side. On entering, looking towards the Deities. In other words, when you come into the temple. There is a big open...

Srila BV Svami M: You must put salt around the body.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I have explained to them everything.

Tamal Krishna Gosvami: It's on the same side as the vyasasana.

Srila BV Svami M: Flowers should be placed in Mayapura.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I have told them to keep some flowers, and wherever you desire those can be...

Srila BV Svami M: You be there.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, I'll be there.

Tamal Krishna Gosvami: He described the entire ceremony in detail, Srila Prabhupada.

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)…Has Sesyai taken sannyasa?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: No. He is still a brahmacari.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: All of your duties are completed. You have fulfilled everything in your lifetime. There is no need to worry for anything. Only remember the lotus feet of Sri Radha-Krishna.

Srila BV Svami M: By Their blessings only.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, you have done everything. Nothing is left unfinished.

Srila BV Svami M: Hm.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Only one thing. They should be told not to fight with each other for self-interest. They should work in cooperation to spread your mission.

Srila BV Svami M: Don't fight among yourselves. I have given you my will. Execute that...Today is Ekadasi?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, today is Ekadasi.

Srila BV Svami M: How is the service of Mahaprabhu going on?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Hmm.

Srila BV Svami M: Of Jhansi. Now he is at your place.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, your Mahaprabhu is with me. His service is going on nicely with great affection.

Srila BV Svami M: At first I was trying to do something in Jhansi, but Krishna had bigger plans. We have got so many places.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Why should you be confined in Jhansi? Krishna wanted you to preach everywhere.

Srila BV Svami M: I wanted to live like a niskincana Vaishnava in Vrindavan; but Krishna inspired me to go out and preach at the age of seventy with only forty rupees in my pocket. And then it took a grand shape.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, you have received the special mercy of Sri Rupa Gosvami, and also that of Sri Radha-Damodara.

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Do you have any pain in the body?

Srila BV Svami M: It's so so… (inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: (speaks to the devotees:) Give him caranamrta when he feels thirsty. Also, keep some tulsi leaves under his head.

Srila BV Svami M: Yei bhaje sei bado… "One who worships Krishna is exhalted…"

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Hmm. Sei bado. "He is exhalted."

Srila BV Svami M: Abhakta hina char. "One who is a non-devotee is low-class and abominable."

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Char. "Abominable."

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: They are fortunate. If one has single pointed devotion to Lord Hari, then, even if he has any faults, "api cet suduracaru bhajate mam ananya bhak, sadhur eva sa mantavya samyak vyavasthito hi sa". This is the principle.

(Indupati Prabhu enters in the room)

Indupati Prabhu: Hare Krishna.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Please come. Has Van Maharaja also come?

Indupati Prabhu: (inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Indupati prabhu has come.

Srila BV Svami M:…Narayana Maharaja has called you on my request. I was saying to Narayana Maharaja that I beg forgiveness from you....

Indupati Prabhu: Hmm...

Srila Narayana Maharaja: (speaking softly to Indupati prabhu.) Maharaja is having difficulty in speaking. I'll tell you.

Srila BV Svami M: I beg forgiveness for my offenses. I did not wish to offend anyone. While preaching sometimes we cut each other's arguments...

Srila Narayana Maharaja: (he is softly explaining Srila Prabhupada's desire to Indupati prabhu.)

Srila BV Svami M: Will you forgive me?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: (to Indupati Prabhu) Will you?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: (to Srila Prabhupada) Maharaja, you have not committed any offence. Please be merciful to us. You haven't committed any offence.

Indupati Prabhu: (inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: If anyone considers that you have committed an offence, then he himself is at fault.

Srila BV Svami M: Hmm...?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: (speaking softly to Indupati Prabhu about Srila Prabhupada:] He has just returned from London.

Srila BV Svami M: They had arranged the world tour program, but I had to return...

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I will speak to those disciples of Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura) who are not here about your wish. Everyone should try to help and give them (your disciples) the needed guidance, so they can manage nicely. Please do not worry about anything. Remember only the lotus feet of Sri Radha-Krishna.

Srila BV Svami M: Please guide them in arranging the festival properly and giving appropriate donations to the gosvamis…

Srila Narayana Maharaja: (to Bhakticaru Svami) Have you understood what he is saying?

Bhakticaru Svami: Yes. (He softly speaks with Srila Narayana Maharaja.)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I have a special request. Please do not worry about these matters anymore. They are qualified and they know your desires. Now only think about Krishna. Everything will be taken care of. You have made the whole world dance in Krishna Nama.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Now I'll take leave.

Srila BV Svami M: First take some prasada.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes I'll take.

Bhakticaru Svami: Srila Prabhupada, I'm arranging that.

(Srila Narayana Maharaja leaves.)

[Credit for the translation is due mostly to the efforts of Sripad Madhava Maharaja, Sripad Krishna Kanthi dasa Brahmacari, and Sripad Tanmoy Chakravarty. Although the volume of the original cassette was improved by digital technology, still some parts remain inaudible, and in the above transcription they are labeled as such.]

anadi · March 26, 2003

Did Bhaktivinode insist that his preaching was somehow

deeper and higher then the previous acharyas ?

Did Bhaktisiddhanta say that his father was not teaching the highest things,

like he was doing ?

Did Bhaktivedanta say that he was teaching higher deeper siddhanta then his guru ?

Yet Narayana Maharaja does this, this is not acceptable.

by any means, this is simply unheard of in the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

Any Gaudiya Vaisnava who claims that they are teaching something

superior to Srila Bhaktivedanta cannot be taken seriously , this has never been done to any acharya, what to speak of the greatest Acharya in history.

To come in raganunga bhajan one

should try to forget that Krsna is God and be like the Vrajavasis. You should try to be a Vrajavasi.

Neither Yasoda Mayia, Nanda Baba, Sridama, Subala, Madhumangala, nor any servant of

Nanda Baba believes that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Srila BV Narayana Maharaja came in the western countries to give this mood.

Then I came, by his (SBV Svami Maharajas) order, to tell you that this knowledge will not suffice (accepting Krsna as God for coming in raganuga bhakti).

When Srila BV Narayana Maharaja says that SBV Svami Maharaja came to preach that Krsna is God, what is the meaning?

He had to established first this fact. As in our bhajan we should first establishe it.

This was not an easy thing in a world, which never heard of Krsna.

SBV Svami Maharaja had in a very short time to plough the land (of the western countries), of prejudices and misunderstandings. Is not that he did not give knowledge about rasa and raganuga bhakti, but I don’t know if he ever gave detailed explanation on this subjects and in this connection

I don’t know if he ever gave bhajan pranali as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada,

Srila Bhakti Prajnan Keshava Gosvami and Srila BV Narayana Maharaja did

for some of their qualified disciples, along with detailed advise on raganunga bhajan,

as the disciples advanced on this path.

Some do not want to hear about this things.

But still there are some that want to hear and follow.

March 26, 2003

What is the point of your posting that conversation,

i don't see any relevance, can you elucidate ?

If what you have posted is correct and not a

concoction by his disciples,then for Narayana

Maharaja to state that his position is as the

gatekeeper to the higher more intimate siddhanta,

and ultimately what Bhaktivedanta Swami has given

is not sufficient and full in representing

the full scope of the message of Mahaprabhu,

then he would have to prove that, has he done that ?

to state that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta

was only teaching the fundamentals of Gaudiya Vaisnavism and leaving the rest for Narayana Maharaja,

that Srila Prabhupadas books and lectures were not of the

higher deeper nature of Narayana Maharaja, meant

only to bring the western people an entrance into

the basics of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is something

that is simply not the facts,or even close.

Srila Prabhupada called his Caitanya Caritamrta

the post graduate study of Gaudiya siddhanta, and that

while he also recommended reading the works of the previous acharyas like Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana and Sri Jiva, he stated explicitily many ,many times that his books were in and of themselves sufficient to bring the serious student to the highest level of devotional service.

If what Narayanan Maharaja said is true, that he is giving

the post graduate course,left undone by Bhaktivedanta,

why did Bhaktivedanta Swami say the exact opposite,

why did Bhaktivedanta Swami not instruct his tens of thousands of followers in this most serious matter ?

if indeed he did not give sufficient siddhanta, He would be

remiss if he did not instruct his followers to hear from Narayana Mahraja in order to complete their

study and service of Sri Mahaprabhus message,

Srila Prabhupada never did that, just the opposite,

he insisted over and over that he has given sufficient

siddhanta for attainment of the divine lotus feet

of Sri Gaurangas association.

March 27, 2003

Prabhus,

No guru or acharya would ever claim that his writings are the be all and end

all. Neither did Prabhupada, nor does Srila Narayana Maharaja. Does Shiva

believe our arrival at "the lotus feet of Gauracandra" is the end and not

simply the beginning? We are meant to appreciate ALL gurus and scripture,

not endlessly categorize, always attempting to reassure ourselves we remain

properly situated, with the highest understanding. No, that is

faithlessness, not God consciousness.

Such 'ritvik' madness is exactly why Srila Narayana Maharaja is forced to constantly explain his position over and over rather than concentrating fully on Krsna katha, as I'm sure he'd much prefer to. It's also why Anadi and others trying to share their taste for these higher topics continually get dragged into offensive debates, ruining what originates as sweetly spiritual topics.

In fact, this very offensive antagonistic fault finding, is our own enemy

Ironically, we used to preach to the Christians that our scriptures were the

university teachings while their puny [my word] little bible was only

elementary school. Guess some of us not only resisted post-graduate school,

but still keep failing high school due to an obsession for APARADHA.

I am very much alone most of the time

and chant a lot, internally and externally, in that I seem to have little choice.

My natural inclination is towards raganuga bhakti and has been ever since I

can remember. I've had 'mystical' experiences with the diety of Srimati

Radharani, which changed my whole perspective on everything.

My realization was only confirmed by the many books I've read -- it

originated within by the mercy of His Divine Grace expressed through Sri

Radha.

My interest is ONLY in God's love whom I now see as Radhika, but also Lord

Jesus since my background was previously with him, though I was never a

church person. My emphasis is very simple: basically it is to encourage

others' personal faith in their PERSONAL relationship with the Divine in the form of Radha, (not Krsna). Her prorities are not the same as His. Service to the devotees and indeed everyone, since all are actually devotees in some sense, is Her area of expertise

Srila Narayana Maharaja is eager to enlighten us on the supreme position of

Sri Radhika, also the necessity for devotees to take shelter of Her. Those

whose penchant for offensiveness denies them any personal realization of Her

will NEVER get it

The greatest service is, of course, love.

Relationships require personal commitment.

Devotional service without personal devotion and

deep emotional attachment

is limited

at best.

Access to everything and everyone

God, devotees, gurus and Goloka Vrndavan itself --

has been given to us through the Holy Names.

We need only chant them correctly, which means very PERSONALLY.

anadi · March 27, 2003

What is the point of your posting that conversation,

i don't see any relevance, can you elucidate ?

1. It is well known that Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja made some general statement against his godbrothers, that nowdays are misused from some persons as propaganda .

I wish that my god-brothers forgive my offenses

Srila BV Svami M: Prabhupada (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura) had a desire to preach all over the world - in Europe, America…I tried my best to fulfill his desire. Now we should preach together.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes.

Srila BV Svami M: We have got experience that if we endeavor collectively , there is great possibility to spread the message of akara matha: the mission of Mahaprabhu , 'prithvi te ache, everywhere in the world. I have contributed to this end to the best of my ability.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Hmm.

Srila BV Svami M: I wish that my god-brothers forgive my offenses ...While preaching, many times we do say things contrary to each other, or we cut each other's philosophical arguments. That happens. Please ask my god-brothers to forgive my offences…(inaudible)

Srila Narayana Maharaja: All right.

Srila BV Svami M: (inaudible)?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Whatever you will order I will accept completely. I consider you as my Guru.

2. It was the wish of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja that Srila BV Narayana M. will help the mission. But as we know some want no help.

You have done a wonderful thing. It is necessary to care for and preserve this mission, and see that it is managed skillfully

You kindly instruct them on this matter

Srila BV Svami M: This cutting of arguments happens sometimes...

Srila Narayana Maharaja: These are insignificant matters in such a substantial worldwide mission. A little something here and there is of no consequence. You have done this wonderful preaching work for the benefit of the whole world. There was no self-interest. You did everything only in devotional service to Krishna - for benefiting all people at large.

Srila BV Svami M: It is all by your blessings.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: You have done a wonderful thing. It is necessary to care for and preserve this mission , and see that it is managed skillfully.

Srila BV Svami M: You kindly instruct them on this matter.

That's why I beg you to please forgive my offenses.

Srila BV Svami M: You have some affection for me? [This is an Indian expression of love.]

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Affection! What to speak of affection, I regard you as my Guru.

Srila BV Svami M: I know that. That's why I beg you to please forgive my offenses.

Why did Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja became more active (than passive) regarding

the mission of Srila Prabhupada (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura), the mission of Gaura.

One can invest some time and read about what happens in Our Mission

www.kundalidasa.org\Our_Mission_1\00chapters1.htm

You have done a wonderful thing. It is necessary to care for and preserve this mission, and see that it is managed skillfully

You kindly instruct them on this matter.

anadi · March 27, 2003

He disappeared, therefore, so that no other gopi

would be displeased with Him. He wanted to meet Radhika alone and did not want the other gopis to know.

(Addressing Srila BV Aranya Maharaja) You should clarify this point.

[sripad BV Aranya Maharaja]: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has heard from

Raya Ramananda that the love of the gopis is the highest, and He is

asking, "Can you go further?" Ramananda Raya is replying, "Yes, the love of

Radharani is the highest." But Caitanya Mahaprabhu has made one condition.

Anything that Ramananda Raya would say must be backed with evidence from sastra, and

therefore Ramananda Raya has quoted a verse to prove that Radharani

is the highest:

anayaradhito nunam

bhagavan harir isvarah

yan no vihaya govindah

prito yam anayad rahah

(Madhya 8.100)

In the Bhagavatam it is stated, "This gopi must have worshiped the

Supreme Lord more than anyone else because Govinda has fulfilled Her desires.

He has taken her away and is meeting with Her in a solitary place, leaving

all the other gopis behind." Then a doubt came in the heart of Caitanya

Mahaprabhu and He said, "This does not prove that Radharani is more dear to

Krsna than the other gopis. Why did He sneak Her away secretly without the others

knowing? That means that perhaps He had love for other gopis and

therefore He took Her away secretly so that they would not become angry with

Him.

Therefore, I don't accept this as proof that Radharani is the

highest." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu knows everything, but He is giving a teaching

for us. He said, "You should give some other evidence."

March 27, 2003

i still don't see the relevance, Srila Prabhupada

was encouraging Narayana Maharaja to share his

experience in MANAGING, not as the param guru

superior to srila Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada would often encourage people in this way, at one time he said Ramesvara Swami was the most advanced of his disciples,

at another time he would say that Kirtanananda was

special, this was his attempt to engage people in the service of his gurudeva, not an instruction to the rest

of us to accept the people he would compliment

as being above the rest.

anyway, you get guru by the mercy of Krishna,

and get Krishna by the mercy of guru, i think that what

Narayana Maharaja said is detrimental to the disciples of Srila Prabhupada who are fullfilling his wish to

continue his mission and take on their own disciples.

By stating that Srila Prabhupada did not give them sufficient instruction and connection to Sri Mahaprabhu,

that Narayana Maharaja is giving the next phase

which Srila Prabhupada left out , is in effect

telling their disciples that their guru is not

qualified and MUST surrender to Narayana Maharaja

if they are to be admitted to the Real service

and real connection to Radha Krishna.

What about the rest of the vaisnava acharyas

who are not Srila Prabhupadas disciples, are they

also under qualified or not really giving the full

siddhanta ?

In fact as far as i am concerned, your conceptions

of a kind of polytheistic siddhanta is a misinterpretation of Krishna Lila due to accepting only the

literal,external words, and not understanding

the actual reality behind them.

you have given Narayana Maharajas conception

of a rasa lila that is leading people to believe

that Krishna and Radha and the gopis are

not all aspects of the One supreme being.

you insist that Krishna and Radhas love for each other

is the all consuming center of rasa lila, my understanding is that they are both One and the same person,

and their pastimes if taken literally will not reveal

this essential truth.

Narayana Maharaja goes on about the intracacies

of rasa lila , repeating shastra he has read, and explaining them from a literal viewpoint.

That is not what i believe to be the accurate

view of the meaning of those shastras.

one must first understand that rasa cannot be real

and sunstantive unless more then one person is involved,if only one person is having a seemingly real

rasa with a person who is in reality the same

exact person in disguise, then that rasa is illusory

and not real, although externally it may appear to be substantive.

Narayana Maharaja is explaing things from the literal

view ,repeating shastra and not explaining that Radha

and the Gopis are all one person,not many,

he explains lila with the view that Krishna

and the Gopis are different people, when in fact

The gopis are ALL personal expansions of Radha,

who is the same exact person as Krishna.

What you end up with without understanding the inner truth,

is polytheism, belief in many gods.

You end up believing that Radha actually is having

a substantive rasa with Krishna,and also the Gopis,

this is not accurate, they are not individual

distinct people, that is a misinterpretation

based on the literal inaccurate assumptions.

They are all one and the same person, Gaudiya vaisnaviam

is MONOTHEISM, belief in a single God, that single

God has many expansions, all of them are ONE person,

displaying different aspects and personalities

and activities and forms, but they are not distinct

in essence, all are the same exact supreme person.

this is essential in understanding rasa lila, if you do not, then you will see Radha and Krishna and the gopis

to be distinct individuals with a real interest

in rasa with each other instead of the actual truth,

which is that in order for rasa to be real and substantive God MUST be in a relationship with

ANOTHER individually distinct person, a jiva.

this understanding is not being presented by Narayana

Maharaja, he is teaching that what is not real

and substantive, i.e. the gopis love and affection

for Radha Krishna, as being the be all and end all

of rasa lila, while in fact the entire affair

is an illusion, and the real substantive rasa

that is experienced by the supreme personality

of Godhead is with the jivas, not with the various personal expansions.

Vaishnava_das108 · March 28, 2003

I am not particularly interested in creating or partcipating in controversies, but I feel I can no longer hold my feelings.

SBV Svami Maharaja had in a very short time to plough the land (of the western countries), of prejudices and misunderstandings. Is not that he did not give knowledge about rasa and raganuga bhakti, but I don’t know if he ever gave detailed explanation on this subjects and in this connection

Sorry, but I think that these sort of statements are extremely offensive to Srila Prabhupada.

More to the point, it has been endlessly repeated by just about every NM disciple/follower that I have met. What is worse is that the source of this idea is NM himself, as he himself spoke this idea in an infamous lecture some time ago.

I don't think that it is a very fruitful project to minimise the contribution of Srila Prabhupada by stating in any way that his teachings are somehow "incomplete," etc. It may be so that Srila Prabhupada focused on the basic topics of Krsna-tattva but this does not mean to say that he never gave knowledge about rasa or raganuga bhakti. 'Nectar of Devotion' is a book that is proof of the falsity of this statement.

I do have much more to say about this, but let us see how this issue develops. But I am just saying that this is a very offensive mentality, to say that Srila Prabhupada didn't do this, or that, and so on ..

March 28, 2003

***Birds of the same feather flock together.

Hmm...It is means am high? Hmm...You high Siva Prabhu.

***And the provocative way won't do.

Is not like vaisnava way.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

***Birds of the same feather flock together.

anadi · March 28, 2003

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu knows everything, but He is giving a teaching

for us. He said, "You should give some other evidence."

Raya Ramananda then quoted from the Gita Govinda by Sri Jayadeva

Gosvami:

kamsarir api samsara-

vasana-baddha-srnkhalam

radham adhaya hrdaye

tatyaja vraja-sundarih

(Madhya 8.106)

In this verse, Srila Jayadeva Gosvami is not explaining the saradiya-

rasa at Vrndavana which is described in Srimad Bhagavatam, but rather the

vasanti-rasa at Govardhana. In front of all the other gopis, Krsna

left the rasa and He went to search for Srimati Radharani. Then Mahaprabhu was

satisfied and said, "Yes, this evidence is good. Radharani is

supermost among all the gopis of Vrindavan."

[srila BV Narayana Maharaja]: After this Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted

to hearsomething more. What did Raya Ramananda reply? He said that in this

world there are only very rare persons qualified to hear all these topics.

These are the most hidden facts. First we should be qualified, and then we

can properly hear. Try to know all these things.

March 31, 2003

./cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001100

March 31, 2003

./cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001100

March 31, 2003

_

anadi · March 31, 2003

[srila BV Narayana Maharaja]: After this Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted

to hear something more. What did Raya Ramananda reply? He said that in this

world there are only very rare persons qualified to hear all these topics.

These are the most hidden facts.

First we should be qualified,

and then we can

properly hear.

Try to know all these things.

The highest objective of any jiva,

to know the glory of Srimati Radhika and serve Her,

has now been expressed.

There are so many goals,

but this is the highest.

All of these goals have been described in the dialogue with

Srila Sanatana Gosvami.

They were also described in the dialogue between

Mahaprabhu and Rupa Gosvami,

but especially in the dialogue with Sanatana Gosvami,

from beginning to end.

They have been described in relation to the life of Haridasa Thakura,

moreover in the lives of Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami,

moreover in the life of Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and

moreover in relation with Mahaprabhu in the Gambhira.

March 31, 2003

In Gaura lila another mood serve Rada-Krisna, anadi. Many people not understand this mood. So mutch mistakes in philosophy rasa and so on too. You read ...Wherever You are, that is Vrndavana. ... any commentary?

anadi · April 1, 2003

Sometimes Mahaprabhu used to go out of the Gambhira in the dark

night, and in mahabhava He sometimes stayed in the ocean for two or three days.

Sometimes He was in the garden of Jagannatha, totally mad. Sometimes

He became like a tortoise, and at that time all His limbs retracted

inside His body.

Krsna once showed something like this at Paithagaon, in Vraja

Mandala. At that time He exibited four arms, and when He saw Srimati Radhika,

automatically two arms withdrew. Regarding Mahaprabhu, however, all

His limbs went inside His body like a tortoise, and at other times He

became very long, six yards long, with all His joints separated. How could this be?

Even in Srimad Bhagavatam such symptoms have not been described, but

all these transformations were seen in Radha. Otherwise, from where could

Caitanya Mahaprabhu have learned all this? All these moods were in Radhika.

In this way, Radhika's love and affection is the highest. Raya Ramananda quoted Her:

pahilehi raga nayana-bhange bhela

anudina badhala, avadhi na gela

(Madhya 8.194)

["Alas, before We met there was an initial attachment between Us

brought about by an exchange of glances. In this way attachment evolved. That

attachment has gradually grown, and there is no limit to it."]

anadi · April 2, 2003

After Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu left Godavari,

we can see what process He adopted.

In order to understand that process, however,

we must try to understand the process adopted by Srila Haridasa Thakura.

In Caitanya

Caritamrta, Antya-lila first Chapter, Krsnadasa Kaviraja has described the life and character of Haridasa Thakura. He taught by his life that

we should have strong belief that

the name is directly Radha and Krsna.

Hare Krsna is Radha and Krsna.

Moreover, in some ways Their names

are more powerful and more merciful than They are.

We are very unfortunate

that we have no taste in chanting these names.

Spoken by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

April 4, 2003

There is nothing you've quoted I don't agree with, but I ESPECIALLY agree

with this part: "...we should have strong belief that

the name is directly Radha and Krsna.

Hare Krsna is Radha and Krsna.

Moreover, in some ways Their names

are more powerful and more merciful than They are.

We are very unfortunate

that we have no taste in chanting these names."

We can realize this directly by personally taking the lowest position while

chanting, as advised by Mahaprabhu. When Radha reveals Herself, our

understanding of everything quickly falls into place. She remains the magic

key to Bhakti. Nothing functions or makes sense without Her.

Our connection with Her can be impersonal or personal or a mixture of both.

Personal automatically includes all the benefits of impersonal, but not the

other way around. Personal requires shared intimacy through full emotional

honesty, heart to heart. Duplicity/deceit, self and otherwise, are our worst

enemies -- aside from our fault-finding propensity, of course.

Devotees who are unable or unwilling to approach Radhika personally, taking

complete shelter in their personal relationship with Her and always

depending only on Her as the doer, will continue to miss the essence of

everything and therefore go on struggling within themselves unnecessarily.

Srila Prabhupada gave the example of someone wiping the dew off his lawn one

blade of grass at a time, when he could have depended on the sun rising and

evaporating it all at once.

In other words Radha, Krsna and everyone are present in the Holy Names for

those who need to see and are prepared to take their proper perspective, as

the least of all. Devotees must seek Radha, first and foremost. They must

beg Lord Nityananda Prabhu if She does not reveal Herself to them. In fact,

it's a good idea to plead personally with everyone, including ALL the

acharyas past and present, for the association of Radhika.

April 4, 2003

i disgaree, this is not the right attitude.

Krishna says those who claim to be my devotee

i do not accept ,those who claim to be the devotee of my devotee, that person i accept.

Radha and Krishna are one and the same, to approach Radha

directly is not advised, you are not qualified.

the process that we have been given is that intimacy

with Radha is not something that is cheaply attained,

the devotee must be introduced by her associate,

not trying to directly connect with her.

this is described in Brhat bhagavatamrtam by Sanatana

goswami, upon entering Vraja, the jiva is introduce there

by Narada Muni, the jiva is not gaining entrance by his own efforts, that is not possible, entrance is given

by one who is there,in Sanatanas story it is sage Narada

who plays the guru, He introduce the jiva to Vraja lila,

and this is how we have been advised, the guru gives that association , by our own endeavor it is not possible.

we should not replace guru seva with the mentality

that we are serving Radha, we are doing no such thing,

Radha is served by her intimate associates,

not by our fantasy of doing that, we are advised

to become qulified for that service not by mentally

seing our selves as her servants in all that we do,

but by serving the guru, that is Krishnas advice,

those who claim they are serving Radha Krishna

by their activities are not seen that way by Radha Krishna, but those who are seeing themselves as doing service to their devotees , that person is seen as being

in their service.

April 7, 2003

(although for many guru tattva is only Sri Balarama)

Srila Prabhupada advised us to "ALWAYS approach the compassionate side of

Krsna as Srimati Radharani".

Srila Gurudeva is likened to a desire tree.

His Divine Grace is ALWAYS accessible to sincere souls and he is ever eager to

bestow pure devotional service.

Sri Radha remains not only the personified

source of devotion,

but it's ultimate bestower and controller as well.

Aparadha blocks Her association in every respect. Those who find themselves

so unfortunate, but stubbornly remain unable to honestly admit their

personal responsibility for it, are generally compelled to invent some

pseudo philosophy in an attempt to prop up some imagined superior position.

They are best avoided.

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