Women and sannyasa

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

The Gaudiya Sampradaya certainly does have a history of women who were leaders and functioned as Guru's, but not in recent times - and that is not because women have become less capable.

 

 

Thus there is already a system for women to become acharya's and leaders. No need to concoct a Kirtanananda method of giving sannyasa to women.

 

Just follow the footsteps of the acharyas, such as Srila Prabhupada, and stop trying to judge their instructions from our mundane vision.

[vaisnava 0]

There have been several important proposed and attempted changes to Srila Prabhupada's established method of conducting the propagation of the sankirtana movement. Changes in his books, changes in the process for determining who is guru, and probably another thousand different changes. This sounds like more proposed change, but the question really is what change is successful? Has any good come out of all the other changes? Everyone has free will to do whatever he or she wants, including devotees. What improvement has come out of changing the instruction of the guru maharaja, Srila Prabhupada? I think it was the rule that Srila Prabhupada tried all types of innovation to bring Krishna consciousness to the world, and that type of innovation can and should be encouraged, when the result is that people are becoming converted to Krishna consciousness. Yet so many of the changes appear to be based upon changing the philosophy, or appeasing the material expectations of some materialists' ideology; in short, compromising. Keep with the basics, I'd say, rather than change things; things that have been established by such a great acarya. I don't think that the eagerness to establish new things would have been attempted or suggested in the physical presence of the acarya.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

From Swami Tripurari's latest "Sanga":

 

 

...As I have stated in the article in question, I personally believe that there is merit in considering the possibility that it may be useful for preaching to award sannyasa to women in our sampradaya.

 

...

 

At a certain stage of spiritual advancement a disciple is entitled to what may appear to be his own opinion while embracing the spirit of the message of his guru, especially with regard to preaching and time, place, and manner considerations. Sincere devotees should consider this point carefully.

 

...

 

Simply because an advanced disciple offers a different opinion from that of his guru, this is not grounds for concluding that he is not a true follower of his guru.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

Inspiration, Self-deception, And More On Women And Sannyasa

 

BY SWAMI B.V. TRIPURARI

 

"You will have to use your mind and intelligence to make many important decisions, and in doing so your mental decision as to how to proceed should be made from within the parameters of the scriptural conclusions of the tradition and in consonance with your heart."

 

Q. I read your comments on women and sannyasa and appreciated them, but a sannyasi informed me that they were not in line with Srila Prabhupada's opinion and the Vedic position on this issue. He sent me the following quote from Prabhupada's books:

 

"So-called spiritual societies concocted in modern times give sannyasa even to women, although there is no sanction in the Vedic literature for a woman's accepting sannyasa. Otherwise, if it were sanctioned, Kardama Muni could have taken his wife and given her sannyasa."

 

He then wrote to me that we must strictly follow the Vedic principles because this was Prabhupada's standard. He also explained that "we should have faith that Srila Prabhupada's books will be the 'Law books' for mankind for the next 10,000 years. Therefore we don't very much appreciate Swami Tripurari's willingness to change them so easily. Also this 'sannyasa for women' is more than a mere detail as it involves the principle of protecting women, which is a cornerstone of the Vedic culture." With all respect, can you comment on this for my benefit?

 

A. I have not proposed that Srila Prabhupada's books be changed. However, I do not think that a literal understanding of the idea that Prabhupada's books will be "the law books for the next 10,000 years" is well-reasoned or realistic. Incidentally, this statement attributed to Srila Prabhupada cannot be found anywhere in the written record.

 

Furthermore, I do not think that the sannyasi who wrote you and others like him are "strictly following the Vedic principles." If such sannyasis were doing so, they would be walking barefoot, bathing only in holy rivers, passing only one night in each village, etc., etc.

 

Prabhupada wrote that women should be protected in all stages of life, as children by their father, as wives by their husbands, and as widows by their sons. In spite of this he himself created a brahmacarini order in ISKCON. Who is protecting them? Perhaps Krsna. Srila Prabhupada wrote:

 

"Actually, there is no... brahmacarini is not allowed in the sastra. Where is the question of brahmacarini? Because according to Vedic system, as soon as a girl is fourteen years old or sixteen years old, she is at once married. According to Vedic system, no girl should be allowed remaining unmarried. So there is no question of brahmacarini. Every girl is supposed to be married. That is the Vedic system."

 

Yet in spite of quotes like this he established a brahmacarini asrama! He also said the following in this regard:

 

"So at the present moment we cannot strictly follow [the Vedic culture]; neither we are strictly following; neither it is possible to strictly follow. As far as possible, that's all. Our conception of brahmacarini is in the Krsna society, because. Especially in India, there is no brahmacarini. But here, in your country, the boys and girls mix very freely, but just to restrict such free mixing, we think that the unmarried girls should remain separately. That is the contemplation. Actually, in the Vedic system there is no brahmacarini system."

 

In the above quote Srila Prabhupada speaks of establishing a brahmacarini asrama in his society in spite of the fact that it is not Vedic to do so. He said the following about this non-Vedic asrama:

 

"I am so pleased that you are guiding your God-sisters in N.Y. so nicely. But some of your God-sisters in San Francisco want you for 2 months. I have asked them to write you directly and if you can spare yourself for that time to organize a brahmacarini asrama in S.F., please think it over. I have seen the article put in Boston newspaper about your activities there, and I am so glad to see your picture, just a brahmacarini. The picture was very attractive for me, and I pray Krsna that you may make further progress in Krsna consciousness so your spiritual beauty may come out more and more."

 

"If you can organize a brahmacarini asrama, it will be very nice idea."

 

The example of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON is noteworthy: in today's ISKCON, the position of the GBC is arguably higher than sannyasa. Although women were not members of the GBC during the personal presence of Srila Prabhupada, the wise leaders of today's ISKCON have appointed women members of the GBC. Who is protecting them? Perhaps the best protection for women in today's society is education, by which they will be aided in seeing through the pretense of concern for their well being on the part of male chauvinists who disguise their sexism in quasi-spiritual packaging. Such chauvinists hardly represent Srila Prabhupada and sorely lack his dynamic spiritual vision.

 

I believe that the question of whether or not women can accept the sannyasa order or not is a detail. Indeed, in my original article I pointed out that the entire institution of sannyasa within Gaudiya Vaisnavism is a detail, one that can be added or deleted as time and circumstances warrant in the determination of spiritually advanced preachers. Details can be changed, as was done by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura when he instituted sannyasa for our sampradaya. It can be changed in order to underscore essential principles. As I have stated in the article in question, I personally believe that there is merit in considering the possibility that it may be useful for preaching to award sannyasa to women in our sampradaya. Yet, I personally have not done this, nor do I have any plans to do so. Furthermore, I remain open to consider that this may not be prudent at this time.

 

I believe that in spite of what Prabhupada has said on this in the past, were he personally present today he might reconsider. After all, as demonstrated above with regard to the brahmacarini ashram, he was known to do this after receiving new information or as circumstances changed, reversing his position on issues from time to time as any reasonable person would do.

 

Some persons like to find things that I say that seem to contradict Srila Prabhupada and in doing so assert that I am not his follower. They find literal contradictions but fail to grasp the spirit of my preaching that keeps me in line with my guru-parampara. A number of Srila Prabhupada's disciples committed the same error in relation to him. At a certain stage of spiritual advancement a disciple is entitled to what may appear to be his own opinion while embracing the spirit of the message of his guru, especially with regard to preaching and time, place, and manner considerations. Sincere devotees should consider this point carefully.

 

Simply because an advanced disciple offers a different opinion from that of his guru, this is not grounds for concluding that he is not a true follower of his guru. Srila Prabhupada has stated in writing in his Bhagavatam commentary that Brahma is in sakhya-rasa, whereas his gurudeva, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada, opined that Brahma is in madhurya-rasa. This is certainly not a detail, yet I consider my gurudeva to be a strict follower of his guru in spite of his different angle of vision on this important issue.

 

Overall, it is best to be generous in our attitude toward one another, and furthermore we should rise to the level of being able to accommodate differences of opinion amongst one another without feeling the necessity to declare holy war.

 

Q. In your Sanga on diksa by tape recording (http://www.escribe.com/religion/sanga/m195.html) you quoted Srila Sridhara Maharaja that "The will of the Vaisnava is the heart of the affair, if he gives his consent, everything else is just a formality." You also said that initiation was about formalizing the love one feels for the guru.

 

Many people have developed a strong affection for Srila Prabhupada from reading his books and I once read that Prabhupada said just by reading his books one is initiated. Given that it was Prabhupada's instructions that initiated, or started, them chanting Hari nama, is Srila Prabhupada their nama-guru? Does it matter that in a lot of cases Prabhupada had already left us, so this will never be formalized? Is it necessary for spiritual progress to accept formal initiation from a 'living' representative of the parampara?

 

If love, rather than self-deception, is the motivation for someone wanting to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and if due to love they did not want to accept anyone else, how is it possible that this could hamper their spiritual progress? Does this attitude reveal a lack of understanding of the nature of the guru? Is it right that one should have such a personal love for their guru?

 

A. Thakura Bhaktivinoda said that he "came to Krsna consciousness" by reading Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, but because he read the book thoroughly and studied its message carefully he never concluded that he could consider himself a direct disciple of its author, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami. Nor did he think that becoming the disciple of another would in any way make his connection with Krsnadasa Kaviraja somehow less than if he were personally initiated by him. In other words he understood the concept of guru-parampara, by which one is connected to all of the previous acaryas.

 

Those who began chanting Krsna nama because Srila Prabhupada preached in his books that they should do so should realize that in preaching like this Prabhupada is representing his predecessors, all of whom preached the same message. Along with teaching that everyone should chant Krsna nama, our parampara explains that one should do so under the guidance of a proper guru and take initiation from him. Taking initiation involves taking something that is being given. Thus there are two sides to the equation: the prospective disciple must be willing (and no doubt loving), and the guru from his side must be willing to accept him. If our initial inspiration has come from a departed guru, it does not mean that we can claim ourselves to be his initiated disciple without his consent. Nor would he give such consent, given that it would clash with the Gaudiya doctrine established by his predecessors, his gurus. Indeed, in order to make a significant connection with such a departed guru, we must follow the system of guru-paramapara and in this way follow his own example.

 

Not wanting to accept anyone other than Srila Prabhupada as one's guru, even though he has already departed, is a form of self-deception fostered by fanaticism in the name of love. Admittedly, it has not been helpful that a number of his disciples have proven unqualified to represent him, but this does not afford us a license to change Gaudiya siddhanta. If you have love for Srila Prabhupada but were not initiated by him, my suggestion is that you seek out those who are representing him. If your quest is sincere, you will find him in what appears to be another, and finding him in this way will make for a noticeably more substantial connection with him than the one you have made thus far.

 

Q. In a previous Sanga you stated that Sri Sri Radha and Krsna are manifestations of Laksmi and Narayana but the Padma Purana states that Saci, the wife of Indra, performed penance for 60,000 years in order to take birth as Sri Radha so she could be with Krsna. Why the confusion?

 

A. According to Sri Jiva Goswami, all statements from the Puranas have to be understood in the light of the scriptural conclusions of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. In his Tattva-sandarbha he has gone to great lengths to explain why the Bhagavatam holds this preeminent position. Statements from other Puranas that contradict the conclusions of the Bhagavatam are either propaganda or only partially true. For example, Saci is in fact a partial manifestation of Radha and is present within her, as is Laksmi Devi, when she descends. Sri Radha is the primal sakti of Bhagavan Sri Krsna, and as such Laksmi as well as the powers that empower all of the goddesses of the gods are partially present within her.

 

The scriptural conclusion of the Bhagavatam is that it is not possible to become a Vraja gopi of Krsna simply by performing penance for however long. The prime example in this regard is Laksmi Devi herself. Although she performed penance for this end, she was unsuccessful. The reason for this is that to become a Vraja gopi, one must follow in the footsteps of the Vraja gopis. This is the path of raganuga-bhakti as taught by the followers of Sri Caitanyadeva. Furthermore, it has been clearly explained by Srila Rupa Goswami that no one can become Radha herself any more than one can become Krsna.

 

Q. I would like to thank you for your Sanga. I very much appreciate your guidance. I think Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja would be very proud of you.

 

In your articles you sometimes advise that one should follow one's heart. How is one to differentiate inspiration from the heart from self-deception stemming from selfish desire? It is so easy to deceive oneself; we have all had so much practice it comes naturally.

 

A. We have guru, sadhu, and sastra to help us in determining the parameters of what is and what is not within the siddhanta of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. However, all of the answers to spiritual life are not in the books in the sense that within these parameters there are many individual choices to make. With all the sincerity at our disposal, we should follow our heart when making those decisions. For example, everyone has to choose a guru. The scripture, guru, or sadhu does not tell us which guru to choose. They provide us with guidelines, but the choice is ours. Don't expect others to make every decision in spiritual life for you in the name of avoiding following the whims of your mind. You will have to use your mind and intelligence to make many important decisions, and in doing so, your mental decision as to how to proceed should be made from within the parameters of the scriptural conclusions of the tradition and in consonance with your heart.

 

Self-deception and selfish desire are deeply rooted in all of us, but we also know something of what it means to be sincere. Pray to be sincere about being sincere and it will be obvious to you what self-deception and selfishness are relative to your immediate need to advance at any particular time.

[theist 1]

If anyone needs proof that woman can be intelligent as well as maintain their feminine natures read below.

-----------------------------

EDITORIAL

February 7, 2003

 

Sannyas For Women?

 

BY TARA DASI

 

EDITORIAL, Feb 7 VNN— Dear Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis, Dandavat-pranams. Shri Shri Radha Govindajiu ki jai!

 

Recently I read some articles on the internet by various devotees about women taking sannyas and I felt compelled to write some thoughts about this. I am not an accomplished writer, but I simply want to say what is in my heart.

 

Frankly speaking, I am shocked that anyone could consider such an idea that women are fit for accepting sannyas. If a man feels that women are fit to take the renounced order of life then it appears to me that such a man knows very little or possibly nothing about the real nature of women. Possibly he may also not know about the qualifications and difficulties in living the life of a sannyasi.

 

If a woman thinks that she is fit for sannyas, or that other women are fit for sannyas, then honestly speaking from the perspective of a woman, I myself think that she is lying to herself.

 

According to shastra, acharyas and Vaishnava tradition since the Vedic times when people were much more qualified than they are today, women never took the renounced order of life. Particularly in our modern times, when Prabhupad Shri Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarawati Thakur introduced tridandi sannyas into the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya, we see no trend for women to enter the sannyas ashram and he had many qualified women disciples (my thakur-ma amongst them).

 

Some persons may argue that women are equal to men and if a woman is renounced enough and intelligent enough she is a fit candidate to take sannyas. My opinion on this is that men and women are not equal they are distinctly different in their qualifications, in their character, in their thinking and in their necessities.

 

According to shastra a woman has two exalted qualities shyness and chastity. A woman who has intelligence as well as shyness and chastity is respected by all classes of people throughout the world. Such a woman would never wish to take sannyas but would remain satisfied in her natural position. But if a woman has intelligence but lacks these two important qualities of shyness and chastity, then she is never satisfied in her natural position and always wants to occupy the position of others. This is the negative side of the nature of women, (matsarja). Such women cannot make spiritual advancement.

 

What I find disturbing about the issue of women and sannyas is that according to the law of averages, if three men and three women of western dissent were to discuss this matter of women's fitness for sannyas, it would be doubtful if any of the six had ever lived a strictly moral life before or even after having become an initiated Vaishnava or Vaishnavi. This is a well-known fact from the rate of divorce, open promiscuity and even child-abuse prevalent in western societies. In my humble opinion, the western Vaishnava devotees should first try to live up to the normal standard of morality before they attempt to restructure the whole Vaishnava culture.

 

We humbly suggest to our western devotee brothers and sisters that they should take heed of our Vaishnava culture in Bengal and not try to thrust their Americanized version of Vaishnavism and women's liberation upon the rest of the world.

 

Humbly

 

Tara Devi

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stonehearted 0]

I would like to humbly ask Tara who she thinks is trying to push their westernized, women's-lib ideas on others. The subject was raised by a question directed to Swami B. V. Tripurari, who expressed an opinion that, in the abstract, offerin sannyas to women who are actually renounced may (or may bot be) be a useful preaching tactic. Not only is he not trying to impose such an idea on others, but he said he has no plans to do any such thing himself.

 

If we want to discuss an issue, let's discuss it in the context in which we actually find it, rather than looking for excuses to stir up controversy, vilify others, and try to bolster our own egos. Each person who wants to write on this (or any) issue should do so in a way that adds to the conversation, that adds new understanding to our consideration of the issue.

[theist 1]

with Tara putting her views on papper? I don't get your objection.

 

There is a westernized "woman's lib" movement in ISKCON and that is probably what she is refering to.

[stonehearted 0]

Well, it's not exactly on paper, but that's not what we're discussing. I guess I have two problems (not objections, exactly). One is that I don't see the women's libbers in ISKCON advocating sannyas for women. (Unless I''ve missed something, and I'm busy enough with my own spiritual life and my proefssional life that it wouldn't surprise me to find that I've missed something.) In fact, I haven't seen anyone advocate it since Kirtanananda. Someone asked Tripurari Maharaja a question which he answered in the abstract. And he has no connection with ISKCON (and, I'd guess, neither does Tara). The other problem I have is everyone chiming in on a topic, especially if it's aimed at denigrating another vaishnava's understanding, without really adding something to the discussion other than another, "Yeah--me too! I think you stink, too!" What I often see see is little evidence of really listening to each other. Too many of us are so caught up in our identification with being Indian, American, men, women, straight, gay, Prabhupada disciples, true-believer followers of a particular branch, that we have a hard time actually appreciating whatever those whose perspective is different from ours have to offer. It reminds me of a song my friend Siddhasvarupananda wrote in the mid-'70s:

 

Hiding in my little house of name and rank and color,

Bewildered by false ego, I refuse to see my brother.

 

I hope you'll pardon me, but one of my interests is the way we conduct discourse among vaishnavas. It's a place where my academic/professional life and my spiritual life meet. I'm not advocating censorship (or self-censorship) but deliberate discourse meant for advancing our spiritual life.

 

If you got a problem wid dat, bra, you'n me can go around back and settle dis. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[theist 1]

you mokes from da islands kinna scare me. You guys know all that Chinese boxing 'n' stuff.

 

I sense something here much larger than Tripurari.He did leave the door open to such a thing though. Tara seems to be addressing a wider issue, a cultural one perhaps. Here come the Westerners with their $ and now they are going to start making whimiscal changes in the vedic system. If that is her complaint she may have a valid one. It is our nature.

 

 

[stonehearted 0]

theist: Tara seems to be addressing a wider issue, a cultural one perhaps. Here come the Westerners with their $ and now they are going to start making whimiscal changes in the vedic system. If that is her complaint she may have a valid one. It is our nature.

 

bob: I understand that; I suspect (hope?) there's more there. Is so, though, she needs to create a clearer context, let us know just what she's responding to.

[theist 1]

I no give ya da stink eye bra, na no stink eye. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Gauracandra 1]

You guys are scaring me with the pidgeon talk. Stop, please stop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist 1]

LOL

stink eye =evil eye

 

The Hawaiians have a certain look they like to lay on obvious newcomers to the islands aka haoles. They give you this certain hate filled stare that is quite unique. Its kinda funny but not really an act. I found the hatred to often be very real. But when some one lays the stink on you you cannot be intimidated. They pick up on it. Pretend you didn't notice and walk on by with no obvious changes in demeanor. I thought of it the same way as passing an iffy dog who may bite you. Don't look 'em in the eye and walk(don't run) on by.

[Guest guest]

The gents seem to be losing control of their senses more than the ladies these days. Maybe in some cases they need the ladies to show the way. Just think if the ladies were renouncing the game there may be less temptation for the gents, and the guys may not be losing it so much.

I'm not convinced the male species' ego is the best example in this world of Lordship.There are a lot of very poor examples from the gents when it comes to maintaining these sacred vows.

In India under the original system both genders take renunciation, just that one is obvious the other not always so.

It is said Srimate Visnupriya Devis' renunciation was more extreme than Mahaprabhus. The Bengali ladies wear white the guys wear red, they just don't usually preach as much unless one has the nature of Srimate Jahnava Devi, who was like sanyas personified.

The idea is to keep one's chastity to Guru and God, not dive back into all the nonsense the grhasta ashram was suppose to protect us from. If wearing a particular colour and shaving ones hair to give some external impetus and protection to help others understand this lady is disillusioned with the ways of the material world, I can't see any harm in this course.

I find the living currant of Prabhupad and all our Guru Varga in Srila Govinda Maharaj. He is actually practiceing all the essential wishes of His Guru Maharaj Srila Sridhar dev Goswami Maharaj, and fullfilling so many of the inner hearts instructions of Srila Swami Maharaj (Prabhupad) whom he sees as his eternal siksa guru and studied under most of his younger devotional days , but still he is his own man preaching in time and various completely different circumstances. Just as all the acharyas did in unique and individual ways according to the need of the times. As did Srila Bhaktivinode, Srila Bhaktisiddanta and Srila Bhaktivedanta, they were all revolutionary form breakers in one way or another still none wavered from the essence of the will of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. It also doesn't condone anything and everything done in the name of KC, only empowered acharyas can add direction to what is already given us, and no matter what we think or say about it, Krsna will accomodate His beloved preachers campaign no matter what the world thinks or objects to.

This doesn't detract from the system, it adds to it. there are obvious practical benefits to women wearing the garb of renunciation like the nuns habit, protecting them from the predatory male species, who quite frankly are doing a good job at stuffing up the planet.

So this is not just a hybrid western conception, this has even been implemented by Srila Bhakti Sundara Govinda Maharaj, a Gaura dham basi and strict disciple of Srila Sridhara Maharaj, who was the staunchest of the staunch, when it came to the will of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswatis' strict adherence to upholding Varnasrama dharma.

but again each Acharya has their different adjustments according to their preaching field and I'm sure GM's decision to give sannyas to a lady was done in the light of his 20 or so visits to the western material environment,and consideration of the nature of this particular devotee. I personally see it as a natural extention of Srila Prabhupads giving Gayatri to the ladies, and the mlechas like us. Still all the acharyas at the same time are teaching to go deeper way beyond varnasram.

 

 

[theist 1]

I have is that of the Western men that have formally taken sannyasa so many have fallen from that order and created confusion amongst the general congregation in the process. Wouldn't expanding it to women just add to the confusion?

 

Perhaps there should be less formal taking of the order and not more.

 

And if the woman want to be renuciants why not just wear white sari? What is all the fuss? Do they need a tridanda to renounce the world?

 

By just starting to dress like and act exactly like male sannyasins there will only be another faction created accompanied by all the time wasting arguements.

[stonehearted 0]

A guest wrote: there are obvious practical benefits to women wearing the garb of renunciation like the nuns habit, protecting them from the predatory male species, who quite frankly are doing a good job at stuffing up the planet.

So this is not just a hybrid western conception, this has even been implemented by Srila Bhakti Sundara Govinda Maharaj, a Gaura dham basi and strict disciple of Srila Sridhara Maharaj, who was the staunchest of the staunch, when it came to the will of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswatis' strict adherence to upholding Varnasrama dharma.

but again each Acharya has their different adjustments according to their preaching field and I'm sure GM's decision to give sannyas to a lady was done in the light of his 20 or so visits to the western material environment,and consideration of the nature of this particular devotee. I personally see it as a natural extention of Srila Prabhupads giving Gayatri to the ladies, and the mlechas like us. Still all the acharyas at the same time are teaching to go deeper way beyond varnasram.

 

Are you saying, then, that Govinda Maharaj has given sannyasa to a woman? To whom, and where? I'm curious, not looking for something to criticize. And what does her dress looks like? I don't imagine that women sannyasis would wear a kaupins, saffron lungi and carry a danda, but that they'd probably shave their heads and wear a plain saffron sari.

[Guest guest]

I think the confusion comes from taking disciples and then falling down, not so much taking sanyas. You only break your own vows and committment by dropping asrams but when they take disciples a lot of disappointment would obviously arise from ones guru falling. I don't think there are many women cut out to take disciples, it strikes me more as a protective formality for serious women.

No they don't need a tridanda, this one female disciple of Srila Govinda Maharaj is very serious, it's no cause for more argument

I think the responsibility lies with the guru, no problem, Maharaj does many unconventional things but at the same time he is distributing oceans of mercy to the fallen section and giving much relief to many of those who have previously been connected to fallen sanyasins. So we can't really comprehend the motives and reasons behind such decisions.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj has told he has a deeply mysterious nature, meaning we can't always read his motivation from the outside. I don't think he's lost any of his sanyas disciples yet and he's even nourishing some of Prabhupads. Most of them appear to be very sincere and stalwart.

 

[Guest guest]

Are you saying, then, that Govinda Maharaj has given sannyasa to a woman? To whom, and where? I'm curious, not looking for something to criticize. And what does her dress looks like? I don't imagine that women sannyasis would wear a kaupins, saffron lungi and carry a danda, but that they'd probably shave their heads and wear a plain saffron sari.

 

Yes prabhu, he gave sannyas to one Lalita devi dasi, an American born lady who lives in Navadwip much of the time, dress is simple light safron, a kind of unconventional sari, and the hair has been shaved but usually very short.

Others approached for similar connection, but have been rejected, I guess he could read something we can't. This woman I might add is extremely dedicated to Srila Govinda Maharaj, I wouldn't think it a whimsical decision.

[stonehearted 0]

Thanks for the information.

[Coyote 0]

quote-"A woman is not supposed to take sannyasa. So-called spiritual societies concocted in modern times give sannyasa even to women, although there is no sanction in the Vedic literature for a woman's accepting sannyasa. Otherwise, if it were sanctioned, Kardama Muni could have taken his wife and given her sannyasa." (S-B 3.24.40 Purport)

 

I find this to be a very interesting and a kind of amusing statement-the using the idea that there is no Vedic reference for women accepting sanyasa so therefore it should not occur. Particularly when Krishna was not given Vedic connection until the writing of the Bhagavad Gita. Up until that time the followers were monotheistic and unsymapthesic to Vedic ritual even managing to convert some of the Brahman priests.

 

On the subject of females and renunciation, following is an interesting interview regarding Indian female Acahrayas from 1999 with Acharya Sri Ananda Giri from "Transformation, Enlightenment & God Realization." The Kalki movement has gone from 0-15 million in less than a decade-the attitude toward women has surely been a contributing factor to the growth and sucess of that particular dharma. Also, it has been observed that any household, nation, land or person that shows disrespect to women shall not prosper.:

 

Q.Who are the other disciples of Kalki?

 

1. Paramacharya Sri Sankara Bhagavad .

2. Acharya Sri Sama Darsini.

3. Acharya Sri Vimala Kirti.

4. Acharya Sri Akshaya Mati.

5. Acharya Sri Kaushika.

6. Acharya Sri Maitreyi.

 

Q. I know that three of the direct disciples of Lord Kalki are women, am I right?

 

Yes, that is correct.

Q. It is rare to see women with spiritual authority guiding large groups of people, especially in the religious tradition. Does Sri Kalki say something about it?

 

It is completely a new phenomenon in India, as in other parts of the world, that a great number of our followers are women. Women have a spiritual potential that is more easy to awaken, because they are more connected with their hearts. Man has mainly developed his intellect, which has made him more cold and rational. Now, in this world there are greater number of women than men. What would happen if they rebel against the rules and laws made by men in this society, and instead of trying to imitate men, they felt proud of being women and teach men about Love?

cont http://skyboom1.tripod.com/index18.html:

 

 

 

[Coyote 0]

Do they not teach the Western men whom you say have fallen from the order the sadhanas of desire so that desire does not make use of them and they can travel freely in any land or circumstance without falling to a woman, food, drugs, booze, greed whatever?

 

Perhaps the whole thing then is like communism-it only works well in an enlightened society for males or females alike.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/WomenApr10_03.html

[theist 1]

forgot to login. If you have an interest in this subject I think you will find much in the above referenced link.

 

Hare Krsna