Jiva is like a spark of Brahman

[muralidhar]

raga said:

There's really no other point aside a request for you to present a list of clear references instead of saying it is stated there somewhere. Where in the Upanisads or in the Gita it is stated that the soul is always filled with sat, cit and ananda, or sandhini, samvit and hladini? Do you have any verses at hand which mention these words?

 

 

and

 

 

In the opinion of Visvanatha and Bhaktivinoda (as well as Bhaktivedanta Swami I noted), a-brahma-bhuvanat means the planet of Brahmaji, or Satyaloka, which is inside the shell of the universe, instead of the impersonal brahman realization.

 

<hr>

<hr>

 

from Sri Tattva Sutra

by Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur

 

12. tecanadhyanantah parasaktivisesatvat

The jiva souls are beginningless and endless as they are emanations of the Para-shakti.

 

13. cidananda svarupa api parato bhinna nityasatyatvabhavat

The jiva is eternal consciousness and bliss. Although the intrinsic nature of the jiva is transcendental substance the jiva is quite distinct from the Supreme Reality, in as much as their existence is subject to transformation.

 

16. vicararagau cetana dharmau svarupa pravrtti bhavat

The essential nature of the jiva is consciousness. The natural tendency of the conscious jiva is to feel love.

 

-- in the commentary to this verse (Gaudiya Math edition of 1979), a verse of the Brahma Sutra is quoted in this connection, in which it is stated:

Every object is endowed with two components, its intrinsic form (swarup) and its characteristic nature (pravriti). The form of the jivatma is knowledge (jnana) and its nature or inclination is love (anuraga).

 

The author then quotes B.g. 2.24 to further elaborate on this point.

 

acchedyo'yamadahyo'yam akledyo'sosya eva ca

nityam sarvagatam sthanur acalo' yam sanatanam

This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable, and eternally the same.

 

<hr>

You did say I should not quote verses such, but these verses are quoted by the Acharyas in relation to this matter. Also there is this verse in Mundaka Upanisad 3.1.9:

 

eso'nuratma cetasa veditavya

yasmin pranam pa-adha samvisesa

pranaiscittam sarvamotam prajanam

yasmin visuddhe vibhavatyesa atma

 

The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air [prana, apana, vyana,samana, and udana], and though situated within the heart it spreads its influence all over the body. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual nature is exhibited.

 

<hr>

In regard to your statement "a-brahma-bhuvanat means the planet of Brahmaji" I would suggest that while some commentators have mentioned it is so, it cannot be said that this is a conclusive statement.

 

The jiva can fall down from the state of Brahma-nirvana (sayuyja-mukti). You yourself have said: "I know this is in the Bhagavata, but which verse of the Gita do you mean here?" From my Guru Maharaj and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur I have heard many references to this. I really can't be bothered arguing the point.

 

Sri Tattva Sutra:

19. anartha-nivrttir muktih svapada-prapakatvat

Cessation of connection with the material objects brings back the liberation of the jiva soul by revealing their normal condition.

 

[raga]

 

-- in the commentary to this verse (Gaudiya Math edition of 1979), a verse of the Brahma Sutra is quoted in this connection, in which it is stated:

Every object is endowed with two components, its intrinsic form (swarup) and its characteristic nature (pravriti). The form of the jivatma is knowledge (jnana) and its nature or inclination is love (anuraga).

 

 

I find the following entries in my translation of the same:

 

"In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

 

"Eternity, knowledge and bliss are part of the soul's nature."

 

In the Vedanta-sutra (4.1.3) it is said:

 

"The wise know and teach the science of the soul."

 

Could you provide the original Sanskrit from your edition to the reference from sruti-sastra? I would be interested. I wonder why there's no exact reference there, just a generic "sruti-sastra".

 

Vedanta Sutra 4.1.3 reads as follows:

 

Atmeti tUpagacchanti grAhayanti ca

 

I cannot make the text you present out of this sutra no matter how much I try. Could you confirm if it is actually 4.1.3? Also the word "anurAga" does not appear anywhere in the Vedanta-sutra.

 

 

 

In regard to your statement "a-brahma-bhuvanat means the planet of Brahmaji" I would suggest that while some commentators have mentioned it is so, it cannot be said that this is a conclusive statement.

 

 

Why do you think Bhaktivinoda and Visvanatha have written inconclusively?

 

Here are some other commentaries on Bhagavad Gita 8.16:

 

Sridhara Svami: brahmaNo bhuvanaM satya-lokaH tam abhivyApya

 

"In this universe, including the Satya-loka of Brahma."

 

Visvanatha: brahmaNo bhuvanaM satya-lokas tam abhivyApya

 

"In this universe, including the Satya-loka of Brahma."

 

Baladeva: brahma-lokena saha sarve svargAdayo lokAs tat-tad-vartino jIvAs tat-tat-karma-kSaye sati punar Avartino bhUmau punar janma labhante

 

"In Brahma-loka and the planetary systems headed by Svarga, the inhabitants, as their piety is consumed, fall and attain another birth on earth."

 

Ramanuja: brahma-loka-paryantA brahmANDodara-vartinaH sarve lokA bhogaizvaryAlayAH punar-Avartino vinAzinaH

 

"Up to Brahma-loka the residents inside this universe on all planets dwell amidst enjoyment and opunences, falling and vanquishing again and again."

 

If you wish to study further the context of these statements, you can find six commentaries on Bhagavad-gita in the Gaudiya Grantha Mandira: http://www.granthamandira.org/ggm/mpfiledb.php?action=category&id=2 .

 

The context of BG 8.16 is noteworthy: in verses 17-20 the dynamics of this universe are discussed, the cycle of sRsti and pralAya and the manifestation of living entities in this universe. Those absorbed in sayujya-mukti are not influenced by sRsti-pralAya.

 

Moreover, if we interpret "A-brahma-bhuvanAt" to mean "all the planets up to brahman-realization", we commit the fault of incorrect inclusion for brahman realization is not a planet to be included in a list of other planets.

 

 

 

The jiva can fall down from the state of Brahma-nirvana (sayuyja-mukti). You yourself have said: "I know this is in the Bhagavata, but which verse of the Gita do you mean here?" From my Guru Maharaj and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur I have heard many references to this. I really can't be bothered arguing the point.

 

 

Why can't you be bothered arguing the point? Because you have nothing to back it up with? Perhaps you can produce at least one commentary which presents 8.16 in the context of falling from sayujya or impersonal brahman realization.

 

[muralidhar]

Raga,

 

What exactly is the issue.

 

I am saying that souls can fall down from the state of Brahman.

 

Didn't you also say as much?

 

The Vaishnava Acharyas you quoted do say that this verse of gita "a-brahma-bhuvanat" refers to brahmaloka within this universe. Indeed I will admit that I was wrong and you are right to say that this verse in gita is said by authorities to refer to Brahmaloka within the shell of this universe.

 

But since I have heard it said that a soul can fall from brahmaloka, from a neutral position, and enter this world, I myself, perhaps mistakenly, was thinking that this verse in gita was also saying souls can fall from brahmaloka.

 

In Brhad Bhagavatamrtam we read where Gopakumara sees Sanat, Sanaka etc. Kumara merging in and out of the Brahma effulgence. According to the Veda, they are born from the mind of Brahma. That is, they emerge from the consciousness of Brahma. And souls can and do fall from that region of "brahma realization".

 

According to the Veda, the souls are different from Prakriti and they originally emanated from within the Brahma effulgence:

yathagnem ksudra visphulinga vyuccarantyevam evasmadatmanam

sarve pranam sarve lokam sarve devam sarvani bhutani vyuccaranti

As innumerable sparks emanate from a fire, so all the jiva souls with their particular characteristics emanate from the Supreme, along with the gods, planets, and animate and inanimate beings. (Brhadnaranyaka Upanisad 2.1.20)

10. 7

tattva yena isvarera jjalita jjalana

jivera svarupa yaiche sphulingera kana

The Lord is like a great blazing fire, and the living entities are like small sparks of that fire. (Caitanya-Caritamrta Adi 7.116)

 

jivera "svarupa" haya krsnera "nityadasa"

krsnera "tatastha sakti" bhedabheda-prakasa

suryamsu-kirana, yena agnijjvalacaya

svabhavika krsnera tinaprakara "sakti" haya

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna. He is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy: cit-sakti (His internal engergy), tatastha-sakti (His marginal energy), and maya-sakti (His illusory energy). (Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109)

gunadvalokavat

The soul pervades the entire body by its qualities of intelligence, just as a fire pervades a room by its light. (Brahma-sutra 2.3.24)

[muralidhar]

Sorry but I can't type the quotes from Sanskrit regarding the verses of Sri Tattva Sutram. I am at my job and I cannot do this now. And tonight, well, I may not get time, but if I can then I will post it.

 

The statement I gave earlier "Every object is endowed with two components, its intrinsic form (swarup) and its characteristic nature (pravriti). The form of the jivatma is knowledge (jnana) and its nature or inclination is love (anuraga)."

 

-- this is indeed in the commentary I have here.

 

Anyhow, what is the point being debated here anyhow. My Guru Maharaj has explained that the soul has developed misdirected affection (anuraga) for the things of this world, and that this is the beginning of our bondage within Maya.

 

dva suparna sayuja sakhaya samanam vrksam parisasvajate

tayoranyam pippalam svadvattaya-nasnan-nanyo'bhicakasiti

The Supreme Lord is the friend of the living being, and is so kind upon him that he always accompanies the soul. In the same way that two birds occupy the same branch of a tree, the Lord sits in the heart of every living being ready to bestow auspiciousness upon the soul. In this way the Lord acts as the indwelling witnesss, even while the soul pursues the fruits of karma and experiences mundane happiness and distress. (Mundaka Upanisad 3.1.1-2, Svetasvatara Upanisad 4.6-7)

 

samane vrkse puruso nimagnohyanisya socati muhyamana

justham yada pasatayanayamisam asya mahimanameti vitasokam

Although the two birds are in the same tree, the eating bird is fully engrossed with anxiety and moroseness as the enjoyer of the fruits of the tree. But if in some way or other he turns his face to his friend who is the Lord and knows His glories - at once the suffering bird becomes free from all anxieties. (Mundaka Upanisad 3.1.2, Svetasvatara Upanisad 4.7)

 

 

 

[muralidhar]

In Bhagavatam also, there is a description how creation begins, and how everything was initiated by Narayana. From memory, I recall that the suddha-sattva energy manifests a glowing form of existence, and that this then evolved into Mahat-tattva. The gods and worlds were all manifest after that. But my point is, everything was in a state of pure consciousness and then individual egos emerge from that timeless, pure consciousness.

[raga]

 

What exactly is the issue.

 

 

Two issues:

 

1. I am looking for references substantiating the soul's eternally possessing sat, cit and ananda.

 

2. I am looking for references substantiating an idea of the soul's origin as falling from brahmajyoti.

 

Reason 1. Some Gaudiya lineages state that the soul receives cit and ananda in the course of its spiritual evolution.

 

Reason 2. I am doubtful about there being an "original" fall from brahman, as sometimes proposed, since both karma and bondage are understood as beginningless in the scriptures. Otherwise falling from brahman is not the topic of concern here, though analyzing the ye 'nye 'ravindaksa verse would certainly prove to be another interesting discussion.

 

 

 

Sorry but I can't type the quotes from Sanskrit regarding the verses of Sri Tattva Sutram. I am at my job and I cannot do this now. And tonight, well, I may not get time, but if I can then I will post it.

 

 

Take your time. I am in no hurry with this topic. Whenever you find the time to educate me in this regard, I will be grateful.

 

 

 

But my point is, everything was in a state of pure consciousness and then individual egos emerge from that timeless, pure consciousness.

 

 

I believe you refer to the following verses from Bhagavata 3.26:

 

yat tat sattva-guNaM svacchaM zAntaM bhagavataH padam |

yad Ahur vAsudevAkhyaM cittaM tan mahad-Atmakam || 21 ||

 

“That quality of goodness which is clear and peaceful, being situated in the Lord and called VAsudeva-consciousness, manifests in the mahat-tattva.”

 

svacchatvam avikAritvaM zAntatvam iti cetasaH |

vRttibhir lakSaNaM proktaM yathApAM prakRtiH parA || 22 ||

 

“Lucidity, untransformed-ness and peacefulness of awareness are the dynamic and characteristics of such awareness, just as water in nature is pure.”

 

After this, Kapiladeva proceeds to describe how the awareness becomes tainted by three qualities of ego.

 

Is this the passage you are referring to?

 

At any rate, the crux of the discussion as far as I am concerned right now is whether there is ever a first tainting of awareness or whether the description above is a repetitive part of a beginningless cycle.

 

[muralidhar]

Please Prabhu, I also agree that the soul is "nitya-baddha" and may be considered a "a lost soul" even if the soul is liberated in the state of sayujya mukti, or brahma-nirvana.

 

I believe souls have been reincarnating in different species of life for an inestimable period of time, almost we can say forever. But then I have heard that sometimes the souls can rise up to Brahma-nirvana and stay there for long, long ages. Indeed for longer that the lifetime of an entire brahmanda. Also, that the souls who are in that state are not bound by karma, but are fixed in some neutral position.

 

<hr>

Raga said:

Two issues:

 

1. I am looking for references substantiating the soul's eternally possessing sat, cit and ananda.

 

Hmmm... Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says:

 

tecanadhyanantah parasaktivisesatvat

cidananda svarupa api parato bhinna nityasatyatvabhavat

verses 12-13, Sri Tattva Sutra

 

My knowledge of Sanskrit is pathetic, but still this is pretty clear to me.

 

Raga said:

2. I am looking for references substantiating an idea of the soul's origin as falling from brahmajyoti.

 

Kaviraj Goswami has repeated this statement of the Upanishads:

yathagnem ksudra visphulinga vyuccarantyevam evasmadatmanam

sarve pranam sarve lokam sarve devam sarvani bhutani vyuccaranti

As innumerable sparks emanate from a fire, so all the jiva souls with their particular characteristics emanate from the Supreme, along with the gods, planets, and animate and inanimate beings. (Brhadnaranyaka Upanisad 2.1.20)

10. 7

tattva yena isvarera jjalita jjalana

jivera svarupa yaiche sphulingera kana

The Lord is like a great blazing fire, and the living entities are like small sparks of that fire. (Caitanya-Caritamrta Adi 7.116)

 

Raga said:

Reason 2. I am doubtful about there being an "original" fall from brahman, as sometimes proposed, since both karma and bondage are understood as beginningless in the scriptures. Otherwise falling from brahman is not the topic of concern here, though analyzing the ye 'nye 'ravindaksa verse would certainly prove to be another interesting discussion.

 

 

I also don't believe in an original "fall". Rather, that a person can be involved in the cycle of karma for ages and ages and then attain nirvana, only to fall again from that position when "desire" re-awakens within them.

 

Raga said:

Reason 1. Some Gaudiya lineages state that the soul receives cit and ananda in the course of its spiritual evolution.

 

Wouldn't that mean that cit and ananda are something external to the soul? External factors. The alternative view is that cit and ananda are quality of the Self itself, but that we are looking elsewhere and forgetting our inner identity, which is spiritual, like a bird that is tasting bitter fruit while its divine friend watches it eat.

Raga said:

... both karma and bondage are understood as beginningless in the scriptures

 

But this entire universe is not beginningless. And before this material universe existed WE EXISTED and we were not feeling any material experiences.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I moved these messages from the other thread to make them more visible.

[muralidhar]

Thanks JNDas Prabhu,

 

I was quite surprised to see a thread posted in my name when I hadn't created it!!!

 

ys,

Murali

[raga]

 

1. I am looking for references substantiating the soul's eternally possessing sat, cit and ananda.

 

Hmmm... Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says:

 

tecanadhyanantah parasaktivisesatvat

cidananda svarupa api parato bhinna nityasatyatvabhavat

verses 12-13, Sri Tattva Sutra

 

My knowledge of Sanskrit is pathetic, but still this is pretty clear to me

 

 

Yes, I noted the reference in your earlier post, it is very clear. The issue is that some Gaudiya lineages do not accept the views of Bhaktivinoda in this regard. Therefore I am looking for older references.

 

 

 

Raga said:

Reason 1. Some Gaudiya lineages state that the soul receives cit and ananda in the course of its spiritual evolution.

 

Wouldn't that mean that cit and ananda are something external to the soul? External factors.

 

 

Yes, that's what it implies.

 

 

 

Raga said:

... both karma and bondage are understood as beginningless in the scriptures

 

But this entire universe is not beginningless. And before this material universe existed WE EXISTED and we were not feeling any material experiences.

 

 

Indeed, this universe is not beginningless, but the cycle of creation and destruction is beginningless.

 

Indeed, in the course of creation there is a phase when the awareness of the jiva is untainted, but on account of previous karma it becomes tainted with three kinds of anankara. This is an ever-repeating cycle in the course of creation, and takes place on account of the jiva's previous karma. As follows:

 

VedAnta SUtra 2.1.35 states:

 

<font color=darkblue>na karmAvibhAgAd iti cen nAnAditvAt

 

“If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality seen in the world, arguing that everyone had the same karma at the beginning of creation, this is not true because karma is beginningless.”</font>

 

Baladeva VidyAbhuSaNa comments on this sUtra:

 

<font color=darkblue>karmaNaH kSetrajJAnAM ca brahmavad anAditva- svIkArAt. pUrva-pUrva-karmAnusareNottarottarakarmaNi pravarttanAt na kiJcid dUSaNam smRtiz ca:

 

puNya-pApAdikaM viSNu karyet pUrvakarmaNA

anAditvAt karmaNaz ca na virodhaH kathaJcana

 

karmaNo’nAditvenAnAvasthA tu na doSaH prAmANikatvAt.

 

“VyAsa has accepted that karma and the jIvas are beginningless, just like Brahman. Thus there is no fault, because subsequent karma is inspired by the past karma. The SmRti confirms this:

 

‘Lord ViSNu makes the living entities do good or bad acts according to their past karma. There is no contradiction in this because karma has no beginning.’

 

If someone objects, that if karma is beginningless, then it has the defect of infinite regress, we say that is not so, because the scriptures say so.”</font>

 

Thus it is understood that all action is rooted in previous karma, and this previous karma is beginningless. In other words, there has never been a time when the jiva was not under the bonds of karma. The brief state of lucidity in the course of creation, i.e. the situation in which the jiva is manifest but no elements are yet manifest, also takes place due to the jiva's previous karma from the previous creation.

 

[theist]

I'll just toss one question in(for now) and then try to stay out the way and listen in.

 

Could it be that what is meant by 'possessing' refers to potentiality?If I hold something as potential within myself, it could be said both that I possess it and don't yet possess it.

 

In one sense we don't possess some quality until we activate it.Yet when we activate it from within ourselves we discover we had it all the time.

 

Concerning ananda, it can be said we don't really activate it until we come in contact with Krsna's hladini-sakti,Radha.So it may appear to come from a source outside of ourselves.But isn't it true that that contact actually causes a resonance of the hladini-sakti that is presently laying dormant within us.'Within us'of course must be take as a constitunt of our very selves, in that the spiritsoul is not a pieced together product.It has it's own oneness.

 

Thanks for considering this point and taking the time to point out any shortcomings.

[muralidhar]

Sorry but last night I was unable to type the quotes you asked for.

 

Raga said:

some Gaudiya lineages do not accept the views of Bhaktivinoda in this regard. Therefore I am looking for older references.

 

People who do not appreciate Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's insights are very unfortunate.

 

Raga said:

Indeed, this universe is not beginningless, but the cycle of creation and destruction is beginningless.

 

The soul is different from matter and can exist totally independent of matter.

 

Raga said:

. In other words, there has never been a time when the jiva was not under the bonds of karma.

 

How then do you reconcile the statement below from the Chandogya Upanishad:

 

This is the teaching of Uddalaka to Shvetaketu...

 

In the beginning was only Being,

One without a second.

Out of himself he brought forth the cosmos

And entered into everything in it.

There is nothing that does not come from him.

Of everything he is the inmost Self.

He is the truth; he is the Self supreme.

You are of that, Shvetaketu; you are of that. (tat tvam asi)

 

and

 

When a person is absorbed in dreamless sleep

He is one with the Self, though he knows it not.

We say he sleeps, but he sleeps in the Self.

 

 

-- Note, in the Gaudiya Math devotee's handbook (Gaudiya Kanthahara) it is said that the words "tat tvam asi" are to be understood as meaning "thou art of that" and not, as the Advaitins say, "thou art that".

 

[raga]

 

Raga said:

some Gaudiya lineages do not accept the views of Bhaktivinoda in this regard. Therefore I am looking for older references.

 

People who do not appreciate Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's insights are very unfortunate.

 

 

Yes, but we cannot counter their arguments simply by stating that they are very unfortunate.

 

 

 

Raga said:

Indeed, this universe is not beginningless, but the cycle of creation and destruction is beginningless.

 

The soul is different from matter and can exist totally independent of matter.

 

 

This is true. Nevertheless, Visvanatha states that the embrace of jiva and prakriti is beginningless. Bhagavad-gita 13.20 states:

 

<font color=darkblue>prakRtiM puruSaM caiva

viddhy anAdI ubhAv api

vikArAMz ca guNAMz caiva

viddhi prakRti-sambhavAn

 

“You should know that both the material nature and the living entities are beginningless, and the consequent transformations of the three modes of nature are born of material nature too.”</font>

 

Visvanatha comments on this verse:

 

<font color=darkblue>mAya-jIvayor-api mac-chaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo’py anAdir iti bhAvaH

 

“The material energy and the living entities, being My energies, both are beginningless, and their mutual embrace is also beginningless.”</font>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Raga said:

. In other words, there has never been a time when the jiva was not under the bonds of karma.

 

How then do you reconcile the statement below from the Chandogya Upanishad:

 

In the beginning was only Being,

One without a second.

Out of himself he brought forth the cosmos

And entered into everything in it.

There is nothing that does not come from him.

Of everything he is the inmost Self.

He is the truth; he is the Self supreme.

You are of that, Shvetaketu; you are of that. (tat tvam asi)

 

and

 

When a person is absorbed in dreamless sleep

He is one with the Self, though he knows it not.

We say he sleeps, but he sleeps in the Self.

 

 

These statements describe the state of the soul before the unfolding of the creation. It is a very common theme in the Vedas. eko ha vai nArAyaNA AsIt | na brahmA na ISAnah na Apah na agnishomi etc. sa aikSata | sa imAl lokan asRjata. This occurs every time when the cosmic manifestation is cast forth.

[raga]

 

Could it be that what is meant by 'possessing' refers to potentiality?If I hold something as potential within myself, it could be said both that I possess it and don't yet possess it.

...

Concerning ananda, it can be said we don't really activate it until we come in contact with Krsna's hladini-sakti,Radha.So it may appear to come from a source outside of ourselves.But isn't it true that that contact actually causes a resonance of the hladini-sakti that is presently laying dormant within us.'Within us'of course must be take as a constitunt of our very selves, in that the spiritsoul is not a pieced together product.It has it's own oneness.

 

 

Some relevant verses from Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu are as follows:

 

In defining sadhana (1.2.2):

 

<font color=darkred>kRti-sAdhyA bhavet sAdhya-bhAvA sA sAdhanAbhidhA |

nitya-siddhasya bhAvasya prAkaTyaM hRdi sAdhyatA

 

“That bhakti which is accomplished through the function of the senses and by which bhAva-bhakti is obtained is called sAdhana-bhakti. The manifesting of the nitya-siddha bhAva within the heart is called sAdhyatA, or the stage of attaining perfection.”</font>

 

In defining bhava (1.3.1):

 

<font color=darkred>zuddha-sattva-vizeSAtmA prema-sUryAMzu-sAmya-bhAk |

rucibhiz citta-masRNya-kRd asau bhAva ucyate ||

 

“That which is a special manifestation of suddha-sattva, a ray from the sun of prema, and which is experienced as different tastes, causing tenderness in the heart, is known as bhava.”</font>

 

It is beyond argument that the potential for cit and ananda is there in the jiva.

 

I'd better do some research on the Sandarbhas in this regard.

[Guest guest]

sometimes 'loka' can mean plane of existence,

or consciousness.

If one for example is in pure Krsna consciousness,wherever he is,he is in goloka.

[raga]

I drafted together an essay of preliminary reflections on the topic. Download it below:

 

http://www.raganuga.com/~madhava/texts/sat-cit-ananda-jiva.doc

 

If you have any feedback on the subject matter, please do post it in.

 

Murali, do you by chance have the Sanskrit I asked you to look up in Bhaktivinod's commentary on Tattva-sutra, the "sruti-sastra" reference?

[Guest guest]

Madhava,

 

Yes I do think I have that reference but I cannot send it now. I am travelling and will not be back in Sydney for 2 weeks.

 

Murali

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

In defining sadhana (1.2.2):

 

kRti-sAdhyA bhavet sAdhya-bhAvA sA sAdhanAbhidhA |

nitya-siddhasya bhAvasya prAkaTyaM hRdi sAdhyatA

 

“That bhakti which is accomplished through the function of the senses and by which bhAva-bhakti is obtained is called sAdhana-bhakti. The manifesting of the nitya-siddha bhAva within the heart is called sAdhyatA, or the stage of attaining perfection.”

 

In defining bhava (1.3.1):

 

zuddha-sattva-vizeSAtmA prema-sUryAMzu-sAmya-bhAk |

rucibhiz citta-masRNya-kRd asau bhAva ucyate ||

 

“That which is a special manifestation of suddha-sattva, a ray from the sun of prema, and which is experienced as different tastes, causing tenderness in the heart, is known as bhava.”

 

 

Dear Raga,

 

from which edition of BRS are you quoting? Do you have a book or is it a document from the Grantha Mandir?

 

Where did you get the translation from? Is it your own or from your book? Is it available online with translation?

[raga]

 

Dear Raga,

 

from which edition of BRS are you quoting? Do you have a book or is it a document from the Grantha Mandir?

 

Where did you get the translation from? Is it your own or from your book? Is it available online with translation?

 

 

Feel free to call me Madhava.

 

The verses are from the GGM e-edition, but that is pretty much the standard reading you will read in any edition.

 

I translated the verses myself, as there were no satisfactory translations available. Feel free to ask if you wish to question anything in the translation. I always try to keep my renditions of original Sanskrit verses as verbatim and plain as possible.

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

In regard to this discussion about whether the jiva-atma is a satchitananda being, could you please advise me what the individual atma is if he is not an atomic particle of brahman?

 

There are many verses in the Upanishads saying the self is brahman, and brahman is satchitananda, so I would be interested to see what can be said to the contrary.

 

Murali

[raga]

Can you cite some, please?

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

I don't have the time to research this subject. I would need to look again at the Aitreya, Taittriya, Mundakya, Brhadaranyaka, Katha and Chandogya Upanishads, and I am much too busy to do this. However, I did take a look at some other sources and found some valid quotes.

 

In fact I would suggest you take a look at what OBL Kapoor said about the jiva in chapter 9 of his book The philosophy and religion of Sri Caitanya.

 

OBL Kapoor quotes Sri Jiva Goswami from Paramatma Sandharba, with various references. And when speaking of the liberated jiva Dr. Kapoor himself says "The pure ego, which is unaffected by Prakriti is eternal, uniform (eka-rupa), identical with itself (swarupa-bhatt), spiritual, bissful (cidanandatmakah) and eternally pure (nitya-nirmala). Birth and death, development and decay, refer to the body in which the jiva is encased under the influence of Maya and not to its intrinsic nature, which is eternally the same.

 

OBL Kapoor also writes:

Sri Chaitanya defines mukti as the attainment of the Jiva's natural state: muktirhatvanyatharupam svarupena vyavasthitih - Bhag 2.10.6, cited in CC Madya XXIV, 43.

In its natural state the Jiva is a part (amsa) of Bhagavan and its natural function is to serve Him.

- The philosophy and religion of Sri Caitanya, chapter 9, "Jiva - The Finite Self".

 

And Kapoor also says, "In his description of the attributes of the Jiva, Sri Jiva (Goswami) follows Jamatra Muni of the Visisthadvaita school, who lived before Ramanuja. (page 132)

 

Furthermore, T. P. Ramachandran writes in his book Dwaita Vedanta:

Matter (prakriti) has existence (sat) but not consciousness (cit) and bliss (ananda). It is insentient substance (acetana dravya). Both God (Brahman) and the soul (jiva) have consciousness and bliss in addition to existence, thus the soul is different from matter and similar to God. It is of the same class of being as Brahman, namely sentient substance (cetana dravya). But the jiva is similar to Brahman only in kind and not in degree. The existence, consiousness and bliss of the jiva are only finite, whereas the existence, consiousness and bliss of God are infinite.

 

Again, Madhava, I ask what are these "scholars" claiming the self is, if it is not cidananda-atma?

 

Murali

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

Look at Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 2.4.12 and the whole of chapter 4

 

 

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

Below are the quotes from Bhagavatam I gave previously.

 

Bhagavatam clearly states that the soul attains to its natural, intrinsic state of blissfullness when he becomes free of the temporary influence of Maya that has covered him.

 

<hr>

Srimad Bhagavatam

First Canto, Chapter 3

TEXT 31

 

yatha nabhasi meghaugho

renur va parthivo 'nile

evam drastari drsyatvam

aropitam abuddhibhih

 

yatha--as it is; nabhasi--in the sky; megha-oghah--a mass of clouds; renuh--dust; va--as well as; parthivah--muddiness; anile--in the air; evam--thus; drastari--to the seer; drsyatvam--for the purpose of seeing; aropitam--is implied; abuddhibhih--by the less intelligent persons.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Clouds and dust are carried by the air, but less intelligent persons say that the sky is cloudy and the air is dirty. Similarly, they also implant material bodily conceptions on the spirit self.

 

 

TEXT 32

 

atah param yad avyaktam

avyudha-guna-brmhitam

adrstasruta-vastutvat

sa jivo yat punar-bhavah

 

atah--this; param--beyond; yat--which; avyaktam--unmanifested; avyudha--without formal shape; guna-brmhitam--affected by the qualities; adrsta--unseen; asruta--unheard; vastutvat--being like that; sah--that; jivah--living being; yat--that which; punah-bhavah--takes birth repeatedly.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Beyond this gross conception of form is another, subtle conception of form which is without formal shape and is unseen, unheard and unmanifest. The living being has his form beyond this subtlety, otherwise he could not have repeated births.

 

TEXT 33

 

yatreme sad-asad-rupe

pratisiddhe sva-samvida

avidyayatmani krte

iti tad brahma-darsanam

 

yatra--whenever; ime--in all these; sat-asat--gross and subtle; rupe--in the forms of; pratisiddhe--on being nullified; sva-samvida--by self-realization; avidyaya--by ignorance; atmani--in the self; krte--having been imposed; iti--thus; tat--that is; brahma-darsanam--the process of seeing the Absolute.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Whenever a person experiences, by self-realization, that both the gross and subtle bodies have nothing to do with the pure self, at that time he sees himself as well as the Lord.

 

TEXT 34

 

yady esoparata devi

maya vaisaradi matih

sampanna eveti vidur

mahimni sve mahiyate

 

yadi--if, however; esa--they; uparata--subsided; devi maya--illusory energy; vaisaradi--full of knowledge; matih--enlightenment; sampannah--enriched with; eva--certainly; iti--thus; viduh--being cognizant of; mahimni--in the glories; sve--of the self; mahiyate--being situated in.

 

TRANSLATION

 

If the illusory energy subsides and the living entity becomes fully enriched with knowledge by the grace of the Lord, then he becomes at once enlightened with self-realization and thus becomes situated in his own glory.

 

[muralidhar]

I spoke with Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj about whether the soul's transcendental form is gifted to the soul by the swarup shakti, or whether the latent form of the self becomes manifest as the transcendental form of an associate of Sri Sri Radha Govinda.

 

Reference was made to Brahma Samhita verse 36.

 

The reply from Srila Gurudev is that the form of the self manifests from within. Within oneself.

 

Murali