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shvu wrote: "I just cannot imagine traditional Braahmanas accepting one who does not have a gotra, Shaaka, etc as a Braahmana."


stone: Well, I can imagine it. It's a fact that many local (South Indian) brahmana families have sent their son to Sripad B. G. Narasingha Maharaja for training and diksha at his ashram near Rangapatnam.

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I just cannot imagine traditional Braahmanas accepting one who does not have a gotra, Shaaka, etc as a Braahmana.


What is even more critical is whether it has the support of the shastras. If not, the stance of traditional Brahmanas has no merit. From the epithets and inscriptions of the ancient Tamil kings through the middle ages [including the times of the Maratha rule of Tanjore], many non-Brahmins had been initiated as Brahmins at the direction of the king and their progeny accepted as Brahmins. Your point on shaaka is valid. I would like some more information on this. When Raja Raja Chola brought in Dikshits from UP for Chidambaram temple, did they still maintain their original shaaka or did they embrace a different one? I have searched for any information on this, but couldn't find any. If they embraced a different one, then it atleast points to a precedence, if not shastric basis, where even shaaka is not rigid. Do you have any information on this?


Gotra has signified ancestry right from the days of the Tandya Braahmana of the Sama veda to the present times. Even if we were to assume that one can *become* a Braahmana by virtue of his qualities, he will still not have a valid Braahmana gotra, which ipso facto makes him a non-Braahmana.


Is there any shastric basis to assume that a gotra is specific to Brahmanas or others? What exactly happened when other non-Brahmins were initiated by the Tanjore kings or when Ramanujacarya initiated non-Brahmins? What happened to their gothras? Again I have very little information on this.


The Gita only describes the qualities of the four varnas. It cannot be taken to mean that the Gita sanctions the possibility of Braahmana qualities in one who was born to parents of a different varna.


Why not? If birth determines one's varna, don't you think Krishna would have said so? Instead of saying "guna karma vibagasah", he could have said "guna janma vibagasah", right? In the least, if one argues that varna is birth based, he cannot find any support in BG. Nor in the vedas and the upanishads.


In the story of Satyakaama Jaabaala [Chaandogya upanishad, 4.4.1-5], the Guru says "A non-Braahmana will not be able to say this...I will initiate you for you did not depart from the truth". Shankara interprets this verse literally and says straightforwardness is a characterestic of the Braahmana varna and not of others. Also in his upadesha saahasri, Shankara says this in the opening verses: "The means to liberation should be explained to a Braahmana disciple....who has been examined by the Guru in respect of his caste, profession, conduct, learning and parentage"


The same Sankara also says in his bhashya to Vedanta sutras that the ways to liberation are to be made available to everyone, including a shudra. So, how can we argue that here when he says Brahmana, he referes to a Brahmana by birth alone? Yes, all the above you have mentioned from upadesha saahasri are important, but the critical question is whether restricted that access to only those who are Brahmins by birth. I don't think so. Can't one argue that Sankara was referring to initiating one who has qualified himself as a Brahmana?


Finally, the orthodoxity of Vaishanavas [Raamaanuja and Maadhva sampradaayaas] is well known. Given the above, I fail to see any scriptural support to any view other than the stringent, traditional view. (This should not be mistaken to mean, I am in favor of this view)


Your disposition understood. We also need to note that this orthodoxy crept into the Sri Vaishnava tradition only much after the time of Ramanujacarya. In the past 5 centuries, there have not been many prominent non-Brahmin saints in this tradition, whereas, before the time of Ramanujacarya, most of them, such as Azhwars, have been non-Brahmins. So, this rigid orthodoxy in the post-Muslim era is by no means a guide to the original mindset that prevailed. Nor is that a validation of a shastric basis.

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Finally, the orthodoxity of Vaishanavas [Raamaanuja and Maadhva sampradaayaas] is well known. Given the above, I fail to see any scriptural support to any view other than the stringent, traditional view.



Nearly all traditional acharya's I have met accept varna based on qualification, and regard anyone (such as westerners) as brahmanas if they have undergone the samskaras and have developed certain auspicious qualities and habits. Some examples would be Sri Krishnaswamy Iyengar of Sri Rangam (Sri Vaishnava), or Sri Lakshmi Tattacharya of Melkote (Sri Vaishnava), or Sri Lakshmivara Tirtha Swamiji of Shiroor Matha (Madhva Vaishnava), etc. I have met with several Jeeyars who hold similar views as well. Of course some Srinivas Iyer working in Canara Bank may not accept this view, but I have no idea why anyone would take thier view as a traditional view. The acharyas are the one's who represent the tradition, not clerks working in Canara bank.

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Good points J N Das prabhuji. Further when we notice that the traditional Mudali system of Sri Rangam temple, which has its origins in the days of Ramanujacarya, has conferred the honours on non-Brahmins for most part, it is only logical to conclude that the Sri Vaishnava acaryas have advocated varna which is based on guna and not birth.

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when prabhupada used to initiate western devotees, how did he assign the varnas. when they do sandhavandanam or any other puja, how'd be their sankalpam? To which gotra do they belong to??

How does a ritvik classify himself? no offense reg this controversial issue. iam also sorry if this is hurting some western devotees, but just needed a clarification.




I read this article "If Krishna Were With Us Today!" which appeared in timesofindia .


It says there'll be an

'<u>End of social hierarchy</u>'


What has happened to India and its caste system? And we blame Krishna for this present caste system because of what he said in Gita (4:13). Krishna is so clear in what he says. There are four types of individuals based on their work (what they do). The work is based on what their aptitude, interests, tendencies are. And that is what the universities of today are trying to find. A medical school wants to attract students who have the aptitude to be doctors. Every one does not have the same aptitude, attribute or an interest in becoming a doctor. A singer requires different attribute that an engineer.


Every one has to do his part. The engineers have to find new tools and new ways, doctors have to find new cures and the inventors have to dig their gray matters to come up with innovative products.


And no one should be refusing from taking up different roles in their life. A Brahman can also take up the cleaning job when that has to be done. He may be primarily an intellectual, but if the country needs him to fight he should be able to pick up the arms and go for it. It is so strange that when Bakhtiayr Khilji attacked Nalanda, he had instructions to kill the people with shaven heads. And they were the monks and the Brahmins.There is no need to expect compassion from a person like Khilji, but at the same time there was no resistance from theses monks and Brahmins either. They were willing to die, all in the name perhaps of, "Atman never dies." They were weak but fearless. Krishna will make sure we all become strong and fearless. And therein lies the beauty of Krishna


Krishna will not put up with this hierarchy. Brahmin for puja and ksatriya for fighting will not be exclusive. <u> A Brahmin should be able to clean if needed and fight when challenged. After all Krishna played different roles himself all through his life</u>. If you look at Krishna he is a Brahmin when Gita flows from him, he is a kshatriya when he fights with Kansa and he is a shudra when he becomes a charioteer and is ready to wash the horses for the next day drive.



you might read the complete article from this page:<a href="http://spirituality.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=20564468&sType=1">

href="http://spirituality.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=20564468&sType=1" </a>.

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vsdprasad wrote: "To which gotra do they belong to??"


stone: Gaudiya acharyas teach us to identify ourselves as members of Achyuta-gotra--Lord Krishna's family. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu teaches, "naham vipro na ca nara-patir . . .": we are neither brahamans, kshatriyas, nor any other material designation. Rather, we are eternally servants of the servants of Krishna, who is sold out to the Braja gopis. Rupa Goswami Prabhupada instructs us that pure devotional service is engaging one's senses in the service of Hrishikesha in this condition: sarvopahi vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam--completely free of any taint of identification with any material designation.


vsprasad also wrote: "iam also sorry if this is hurting some western devotees. . . ."


stone: Why do you think your questions would hurt anyone?


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On one of the "Memories" videos Srila Bhaktitirtha Swami tells a story. He approached Srila Prabhupada and said "There is racism in this movement." He recalls that Srila Prabhupada said "Oh, so someone thinks you are the body? And this bothers you? So you are also nonsense." I just remembered this story right now, but I saw the video a long time ago so its not exact. Basically we are conditioned souls. We try our best, but the fact that it bothers us also suggests that we are on the bodily platform as well.

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Om Shanti...


The first question to ask...


1. What and where do the seeds

of racism develop?


2. Why is it important?


3. How does it relate to identity

and personal power?


Now, a thought, by the grace of

the beloved i am multicultural and

have seen race, nation, and a few

other 'isms' from the vantage point

of not truly belonging to any such



yet, even with this perspective,

the tentacles of maya-isms of

many hues have been observed.


From socialism, past hurts, failed expectations, limited vision and

a host of issues in the growth



One question to ask:


From one aspect of our family life

did the projection of "race-issues"

get transferred?


This is said, because when we truly

ponder "isms' we oft find that the

response is beyond the logic of the

Mind-that emotional triggers are

'reacting' to some stimuli.


This stimuli is often times not open

to mental reprogramming -no matter how

many work-shops, friends, or thought

that an afflicted one may encourage.


This suggest that the 'ism' marker was

'programmed' prior to cognitive thought,

which, i believe, is prior to speech.


If this is indeed correct, than, the

memories are often established prior

to rational thought and are therefore

hard to address with rational thought

to deprogram. Thus, the we may note

the wisdom of the Masters in always

reminding us to meditate.


So, if many isms are derived before

speech and thought, it may be suggested

that most of our issues are related

to that which was germinated in our

vary families.


That is, we may ponder, what aspect of

our reaction to 'different' people

have roots in our earliest experiences...


After having been to scores of programs

as both a committee member and facilitator

for diversity workshops this has come

to emerge as the best solution to such

a pervasive problem for humanity.


Instead of looking outward, it

may be best to seek the inner

domain of what ails us...



Then, i believe, the true healing can begin.


Om Shanti

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Om Shanti...


Here is a game we do every today

caught in the wheels of Maya's play:


If speaking of "another" as:

They and Them,


aleady "isms" have taken hold

of the Mind's eye in a dance

of othering the essence of

who we truly are.


If we point and think that

this is what "they or them

are like, then what does that

say of us?


There is an African proverb:


If we point one finger there

are three more are pointing

back to ourselves...


How can we see that which does

not exist in our own world of

experience? When we point to

what we see in "others", we are

also pointing to that which is

a part of our won personal




Shadows of the Soul are indeed

difficult to embrace, but, it

seems that this is the only way!

To our birthright and total bliss.


Purification of all of the little

hates and seperations that keep us

in the swamps of Maya!


We are One, means just that!

One without a second!


It is my prayer that the Beloved

open this world weary heart to

the ruby light of total Love...


May we dance together in this

celestial harmony!


In Joy, In Peace, and, dear heart

in total surrender to pure Love.


Om Shanti


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Guest guest

I would also like to know the answer to your question, you have raised an interesting point.

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Through an odd bit of bad luck, I get mailings from the Ku Klux Klan, Rev Robb division. I wish i could scan this stuff for all of you to read. Anyone who has ever wondered how anyone can tie racism to religion will get more than a mouthful from these folks.

They feel fully justified in a white supremacy stance tied to Christianity

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and take the Nation of Islam with you.These guys are just as bad although they cut a better profile.They are all stooges and living caractures(sp?) of themselves.


I wonder if there is a section of hell where they will all be forced to live in the same room.Managed by Jews of course.

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I truly believe that racism begins for the most part within the family. I, myself, am white, but,I was raised to love everyone,regardless of the color of their skin, where they lived, or their religion.I realize many people are not raised in a family,to love all. Even some whites have been raised believing that whites are the supreme, and others are to be looked down upon.I do not think in this way at all. We are all people of God.That is not to say, we like the things that everyone does or their reaction to different things, but to love all people.Now,in a world,like it is now, it can sometimes be hard to trust everyone. I have always tried to respect people's views,but remain cautious, as well,when it is something I know nothing about..I do not think this is contributing to racism, but trying not to be totally naive about things.I have heard so many of you, in the posts, discriminating against Indians,etc..,or so it seems,that I really do not understand. I have several Indian friends, and even though,I know them,only on the net,they do not seem racist,when it comes to me.I know they know I am white, and it seems to be no problem. I have found them to be very supportive of me and my goals. I know this is only a few, but should we pass judgement on all Indians,because of the views some have in regards to race? Do you pass judgement on me, because I live in the USA and am a white female? Sometimes I feel we have to look within ourselves to discover what is really important..I believe all of us would find, when it comes to finding God, it does not matter the color of our skin.After all,I have read your posts time and time again, saying that this is just a body. Our soul is what is within...Right?? Debbie

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You are right, we are not the body. Even though I started this thread at some point I stopped following it. I was mostly concerned with what I have seen around ISKCON temples. We try to carry or false conceptions with us into spiritual practice and of course they don't mix.


Racism we find everywhere in religious societies. It can even be very subtle, just under the surface. We must go deeper beyond this false differences as you suggested.


here is a verse that relates:


{b}He is a perfect yogi who, by comparison to his own self, sees the true equality of all beings, in both their happiness and their distress, O Arjuna! Bhagavad-gita 6.32


Hare Krsna

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Racism is just about everywhere,it seems, even in religious societies. You know there are so many parents that put hate and fear in the minds of their children, and I feel this is so wrong.Children then grow up, with so much hatred,and prejudice in their lives,that they miss out on some of the good people from different countries,that they may meet.It would be so wonderful,if all people could,live together in peace, without having to worry about racism. But that is would be a perfect world, and right now,that is not perfect. I feel I have been most fortunate, to have met different people from different places and able to call them friends,on the net and where I live and work. I really feel God wants all of us to be able to live at peace,without all these outside interferences,so we can concentrate on learning more about our God,no matter what we choose to call Him,and serve Him in the best way possible. Debbie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

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Om Shanti


Dearest Debbie, dear, thank you for

taking the time to respond to my



I would like to point out a few

issues related to 'isms'-that is,

not just issues realated to 'race'

[truly a vile word]. But, issues

realted to all categories of how

we gage the world's peoples.


Note, dear, that any ism is not

an isolated event, but, a host of

'events' that appear to assist the

perceiver AND the perceived into

a 'game of isms'-the skirmish [be it

subtle or overt] and the reaction

to this event.


These are the issues by which one must observe any ism or as you prefer,

race issues.


One, if i may, note that you refer to

your self as "white"-WE ARE NOT COLORS

like paints in a box. I hate this

method of viewing the beauty of human

glory and hope in time to wash all of

this programming from my mind.


But, if we are to be colors, dear, then

may i be so bold s to say, that most

likely you would really be pink...?


Now sit back and note the reasons for

saying this...


Two, the Family may begin the issues

related to race, but, society takes

what threads that are woven into

the early childhood knots and weaves

a blanket that begins to smother the

true victim of any "ism."


Three, if we take a look around and

note the REAL issue related to any ism

-the issue being Power. Who has it and

how to maintain it. This 'power' becomes

a tool by which to exert privilege which

once tasted is very hard to share with

the totality. Why, i am not sure.

Memory is one vibrant feature here,



This is rather a pointed way to look

at this issue..for it is very complex

and goes beyond loving families and

a few fast friends. I wish it were

so easy. It is not. At least, to

me, that is.


Isms relate to how we relate to ALL

people. The beggar on the street,

the physically challenged person

in our community, the elderly, the

poor, the rich, the ugly, the pretty,

the smart, the not smart, the male,

the not male, the this or that and

all in between.


It is about our attitudes of a group

that allows one to feel privilege or

superior than another, Or, even less

than another group , too. A very

subtle method of reacting to our world.

A world created from building blocks

that we may not even note as they

are hidden within the very foundation

of our thought processes.


Processes that are beneath thought and

again, i say, the value of meditation.


Not to mention the karmic issues related

to our clan and collective consciousness.



It is my belief, that the vast majority

of persons born in the world today have

deep issues related to 'color' and

economic politics which are encouraged

via the Educational, the Economic, especially the Media systems and all

'other' Institutional systems which

endeavor to insure that those in power remain. Even being a parent is a form

of ism, to some degree.


I could go on and on-but what point is there..for all of these systems are

only reflections of Maya and have

meaning only in terms of how we allow

them to help or hinder our Liberation.


It seems, that the issue is power as

this is the magic of life and death

in terms of manifested energy and



As sadhakas or spiritual seekers, we

are engaged in how to relate to power

every time we meditate and chant our

mantra and bow to the Beloved.


Yet, the wise sadhaka knows that

true power is Within and the rest

well, this lesson is an ongoing



Now, the reason that i called you

'pink' is for you to ponder issues

related to power...


White is a power word and hence,

it becomes a cultural marker in

speech of which i shall not go

into detail here. How did it feel

to be called Pink instead of white?


It has been noted how many of the

persons of European Heritage

notate this descriptive [ie, white]-why?


The issues of "race" are deeper than

a mere loving family and a few fast

friends that are 'different'. Whole

societies are built upon issues related

to race or national origin or caste

or language group, or tribe, ect -

But, this was said before, i think in

earlier posts.


All words that describe in terms of

"they" or "them' are profane-may we

all understand this deeply. It is a

hard lesson, i am coming to learn



Society defines us thus-yet, we must

attempt to define ourselves differently-

We must become free from the these c

hains of nama rupa!


In a media such as this cyber temple,

our words should be our calling card-

..for this is the core of our mind

that also reflects our character more

than any jail-house image could.

Yet, these, too, are Mother Maya-

quite a fix, i dare say.


So, what color are we?

So, what country are we?

So, what path are we?

So, what are we, any way?


How about the color and county

and path of Love...


A rainbow of colors and flavors

and scents andsongs and textures...


wow, i love that!


Can't we All just be a tattered

and love worn rug, of peace

and love.


So, Dear Debbieji, a dear

Child of Divine LIGHT- i praise that

temple of Love within your

heart's core!


with love, sister,

your sister is spirit.

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Thanks for your response.You asked me how I felt being called pink? That does not bother me, in the least.As they say "color is only skin deep."I cannot quote you anything from the scriptures, but I can only say what I feel in my heart.I know what ever color your skin,it is just a covering,and just a body.What we feel inside,can make all the difference,how we respond to the people around us.Sometimes people try so hard to hate someone because of how they look,where they live,what they wear, color of skin,etc...the list can go on and on,that they do not stop to see the goodness that lies within.I know I had referred to myself,as "white",but I did not say that to express power or to be superior over anyone.Even though some feel that one person's race or country is supreme over another I do not feel this way.I do feel there is far too much hatred in this world,but we can not let that hinder us in our journey. I feel we are in this world all together and many of us are search-ing for our own path to God and how we can better serve Him.I like your thoughts of: "Can't we all be a tattered and love-worn rug,of peace and love." If only people could open their hearts to let God in,I think there would be alot of changes in this world.For now, we have to just pray for His guidance to do what we must do in order to serve Him. Once again,thanks for your response.

Debbie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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and Ruffin's Temptations: "Beauty's only Skin Deep, but Ugly's to the Bone."

God put Africans in Africa, Red Indians in North Amerika, Frozen Food up North etc.

We took it upon ourselves to 'improve' upon God's arrangement.

Was it Chief Seattle who cursed us to die from the same tobacco we vowed then later broke treaties by?

And who was it that first stated: "White man speak with Fork Tongue" Kenneth Lay?

Watch out for that North Fork Bank and this new Smart Energy electric company.

South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia must continue to grow & sell it birth after birth.

No choice. Condemned to repeated birth & death till they all become thoroughly KC.

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I am sorry I got the quote wrong, about color being only skin deep.Even so,that is how I feel anyway.But even though, we were put in different countries,is that any reason, we should not be able to live in peace together?


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In Vedik Culture there is also separation, not indiscriminate mixing.

From Gita 4:13 + 18:41-44 u get some idea.

Everyone is provided for accordingly.

No homelessness, abundant cloth, food = prasAdam.

Nowadays even so-called brAhmaNas have taken shelter of tamoguN.

And SP said there r no more ksatriyas either, only vaisyas and sudras = belly and legs.

Ergo there must be chaotic condition.

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Hi Debbie,

Most of us don't know who we are that's why there is discrimination.Earth is closer to hellish dimensions than heavenly ones and this affects the way we think.Peoples of different countries have their particular advantages and disadvantages.US is so rich they hardly get chance to think about God and India is so poor that nowdays they have become very much envious of rich countries.God put us here because we have to overcome material dualities and illusions.Devotion combined with knowledge can do that.After all this world is a dream.It is temporary and we have nothing to do here except God's work.


Hope this finds you in great health and spirits /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

See ya...



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I know I have read at least that far in the Gita, but right now, I can not argue scriptures with you, and I am not going to even try to do so..There is still so much I do not understand, so it would be wrong for me to argue something I do not fully understand yet..I will continue to read some more, and will get back with you.As I have told everyone before,I can only say what I feel at this point, and do not have scriptures to back me up..Maybe at some later date, I can be as knowledgeable with them,as some of you seem to be. Debbie

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Om Shanti...


Dear Debbie,


Unfortunately, it seems that

you have missed the primary

message of my post.


it happens. Most likely, i have committed

the same.


More so, the post was also presented to

others as an informative insight into

academic research into the issues related

to isms. The Color consciousness here

was one target of my post...and was not

only directed towards you.


But, i have not asked you to quote

from the Scriptures and in fact,

have not myself-so why are you saying



Dear, when we speak there are two

features that operate at the same



what we Intend and what is Perceived.


Now, one can operate from the stereotype

and speak expected words from this zone

of behavior or one can operate so as

to shake loose a few of the cultural

and mental traps that are part of an

expected response.


For many, the expected is more pleasing

and it thus granted higher 'status'.


This is all good and well, for folks

that are Not ready for shaking the foundations of thought. But, for

folks that are ready to seek deeper

in to the causes of what and why it



only the unexpected, as far as i am

able to understand it, is the key.


Your response, was the expected one.

sorry, but, your classic response

has created disappointment in me.


You claim that saying you are white

means nothing, then i ask, why do you

use it?


Honesty, is the issue here. You

call people Indians, and then claim

a color for yourself.


Why not say variations of brown for

most of the Indians and then, maybe

white would have fit in better. Why

the difference? All of this is said

in service and not to be harsh.


You have been in this club long enough

to note the issues that are linked with color-all of the talk about Lord Krishna's

color, etc.


This color issue is one of the major

hurdles of modern peoples...


And it hurts me to see so many

beautiful people feel less because

of a silly emphasis on color.

From too dark to to white-it

all is the same issue!


re: "Sometimes people try so hard to hate

someone because of how they look, where

theylive, what they wear, color of skin,

etc...the list can go on and on, that

they do not stop to see the goodness that

lies within."


*If you know this, then why do you add

to the problem?


Step out and be free-free from Both

the plus and minus of what this form

of identification entails.


I too was raised in a home that honored

the worlds peoples and cultures, yet,

even there, issues related to color

took seed to some degree.


From relatives, society, the school,

the media etc....


You have ignored altogether the whole

issue related to power and external influences that was in my post.


This was more important

that how you perceive you are...


For, the world is a pollutant to

our heart-sad but very true.


re: ,but we can not let that hinder us in our journey. I feel we are in this world all together and many of us are search-ing for our own path to God and how we can better serve Him


OR Serve HER. I worship MahaKaliji.


Of course we can not let this silly

world hinder us. We must recognize

it's lure and then use it to help

us to locate and note our own demons.


For example, your manner in speaking

and presentation is bringing up a

few of those pockets of pain...this

is good for it allows me another

opportunity to grow...and maybe a few

'others' that have had similar pain..

This is good and i Thank you.


However, Dear, remember this, even if,

it is painful....that:


Many of the world's peoples did open

up their hearts to God [via missionaries]

and in the process lost their lands,

their children, and their freedom.

No matter that all of this is Maya-

as this whole issue is contained,



Do try to remember this legacy of the

"White" world. Then and Now-this time,

it is called a war against terrorism,

for example.


So, when you ponder the use of this

word to describe you, remember ALL

that it carries. And, then what i

am saying will be understood better.


More so, i am not blaming you or anyone

for what has happened in the world as

a result of aggression from any culture

or people-so no need to defend or feel

responsible--these are not going to

bring growth and Love to our world.


The Only way is trough Honest Dialogue

and methods to create change through

personal example.


The world is tired of talk. We need

Champions of Character...those that

seek, as i have noted you have done

in other posts, to bring Peace and

Love to a world that honours Hate

and war.


Only Love-imperfect at first, but,

it shall grow into something out of

this world into Perfect Prema [love].


I would like to quote Swami Vivekananda:


"I will compare truth to a corrosive substance of infinite power.


It burns its way in wherever it falls

-in soft substance at once, hard granite slowly, but it must.


What is writ is writ. I am so, so sorry, that I cannot make myself 'sweet' and

accommodating to every black falsehood.


But I cannot. I have suffered for it all

my life, but I cannot."


Dear Debbie, we are what we say, and to disown our words will not take away the

meaning beneath the form.


Now, my words are harsh--and, perhaps,

this is me and my way. Your words are

presently sweet, perhaps, this is you

and your way.


No matter. WE are here and are looking

towards the horizon-and with that look,

dear, we will meet the Sun of Truth!


Love, shikha




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