The sat guru and the transcendental sound

[raga 0]

Avabhuta,

 

I will spare you from my expanded condescending grace. I am just trying to figure out what this discussion is all about.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Raga said:

Avabhuta,

I will spare you from my expanded condescending grace. I am just trying to figure out what this discussion is all about.

 

 

If scripture is so important for you, try and understand that first.

 

[raga 0]

 

If scripture is so important for you, try and understand that first.

 

 

Understand first before doing what? Before discussing here to better understand scripture?

 

Aside this, which scripture would you like to have me understand?

[Guest guest]

 

1. raga (09/25/02 11:10 AM ):

I am just trying to figure out what this discussion is all about.

 

2. raga (09/26/02 03:46 AM )

(In reply to: "If scripture is so important for you, try and understand that first.")

Understand first before doing what? Before discussing here to better understand scripture?

 

 

 

You wish to better understand scripture through a discussion (raga 2)/ a discussion you don't understand (raga 1)?

[anadi 0]

Objections of Kailasa Prabhu

 

1. Therefore no understand the message Lord Caitanya ( gaura vani )

 

His arguments:

 

"In the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika, verses 147 through 153, it is stated:

The pleasure potency of Sri Krisna formerly known as Vrndavanesvari is now

personified in the form of Sri Gadadhara Pandita in the pastimes of Lord

Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Sri Svarupa Damodara Gosvami has pointed out that in the shape of Laksmi,

the pleasure potency of Krisna, she was formerly very dear to the Lord as

Syamasundara-vallabha.

The same Syamasundara-vallabha is now present as Gadadhara Pandita.

Formerly, as Lalita-sakhi, she was always devoted to Srimati Radharani. "

 

Internal energy Sri Gadadhara Pandita Is simultaneously shown:

 

- Radharani for Lord Caitanya as Krisna

- Lalita-sakhi for Lord Caitanya as Radharani

- Laksmi for Lord Caitanya as Lord Narayana

 

Thus Sri Gadadhara Pandita has all kinds of internal energy.

 

-At Vaikuntha level Lord Caitanya is Lord Narayana

-For devotee Krisna lila He devotee ( Sri Caitanya, Nityananda, Advaita, Gadadhara, Srivasa , altar Radha-Krisna-Sri Caitanya

 

-For devotee Sri Caitanya He Radha directly.

 

Therefore devotee Vaikuntha and Krisna lila understand Him as Lord Narayana and devotee Krisna. They worship Radha-Krisna basically.

 

vande bhakti-vinodam

sri-gaura-sakti-svarupakam

bhakti-sastrajna-camprajam

radha-rasa-sudhi-nidhim

 

sri-gaura-sakti - Laksmi Radharani

radha-rasa-sudhi-nidhim - Lalita-sakhi, Radharani

 

This infinite power Vaikuntha, carrying in itself internal energy.

 

Therefore no understand the message Lord Caitanya ( gaura vani )

 

 

REFUTATION

Kailasa Prabhu said nothing about gaura vani (Message of Gaura)

But Srila Rupa Gosvami says in Sri Vidagdha Madhava

 

Anarpita carim cirat karunaya avatirnah kalau

Samarpaytum unantojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

Harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba sandipitah

Sada hrdaya kandare spuratu vah saci-nandana

 

May that Lord, who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi

Be transcendentally situated in the innermost chamber of your heart.

Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold,

He has appeared in the age of Kali by His causeless mercy

To bestow what no avatara EVER offered BEFORE

Manjari-bhava

The service of Srimati Radhika as Her confidential maidservant.(unantojjvala rasa)

 

Speaking at the disappearance day of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja says:

 

He wanted to very clearly give the path of RUPANUGA (manjari-bhava),

but he first had to cut down the jungles of mayavada and atheism.

Because he wanted to give this path, he requested me to help them.

He could have given it then, but they were not ready at that time.

He told me to help them so that they could become strong in bhakti; more strong than iron; as strong as thunderbolts. You should therefore preach your Prabhupada's real mission, Rupa Gosvami's mission, everywhere.

Only those who have had a high class of sadhu-sanga can realize his mission and his glories. Only a maha-bhagavata can understand another maha-bhagavata. You cannot realize this. You have heard from Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura that Vamsidasa Babaji was a paramahamsa. Unless you heard it from Srila Sarasvati Thakura, how could you have understood? [Vamsidasa Babaji would, for example, keep fish bones in front of his hut, and sometimes he wouldn't dress his Deities. On other occasions he wouldn't follow Ekadasi, and sometimes he would offer tea and coffee to his Thakurji.] Prapujacarana Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja has also said about your Prabhupada that his power came from Sri Nityananda Prabhu, and therefore he is a saktyavesa-avatara. Who can realize this? Only one who is following him in the real sense.

I used to see him when he was singing Sad Gosvami-astakam and Gauranga Bolite Habe. He used to sing in a pathetic tune (filled with feelings of separation and longing for Krsna), with his voice choked up and tears in his eyes.

 

CONCLUSION

 

1.What is GAURA VANI ?

to give what no avatara has ever given: manjari bhava in unantojjvala rasa

2.Who understood the message of Gaura and was able to establish His mission

to give manjari bhava in unantojjvala rasa?

Srila Rupa Gosvami!

Who is a true rupanuga?

One who can give manjari bhava in unantojjvala rasa.

 

 

 

[anadi 0]

I don't know but is not only the english

that is hard to be understood.

But even the logic of the text is veery hard

to follow.

 

I don't want to criticize Kailasa Prabhu, it

is only that I am not so proficient to understand him.

May he forgive me for any inconvenience.

[raga 0]

 

You wish to better understand scripture through a discussion (raga 2)/ a discussion you don't understand (raga 1)?

 

 

I wish to better understand the discussion which discusses the meaning of the scripture to better understand the scripture through scriptural discussions. Is that hard to understand?

[raga 0]

 

hi, raga, I still love you

 

 

I still love you too, anadi.

[Guest guest]

Please explain/define the following. I'm not so familiar with the meaning of terms unless an English translation is provided. Thank you.

 

 

...manjari bhava in unantojjvala rasa.

 

 

[raga 0]

There's actually a typo there, it is supposed to be "unnatojjvala".

 

Unnata = sublime; ujjvala = blazing, passionate; rasa = sacred rapture.

 

Upon hearing the words "manjari bhava in unnatojjvala rasa", one may think there are other varieties of manjari bhava as well. However, it is not so; manjari-bhava, or bhavollasa-rati (attachment of rising emotion), consists of bhAva-tadAtmya (oneness in feeling) with Sri Radha who is always plunged in an ocean of blazing erotic rapture. Manjari-bhava is also called bhavollasa on account of the manjaris' feeling and allegiance for Sri Radha always predominating over their relationship with Sri Krishna.

 

[anadi 0]

The doubt about the

guru and the transcendental sound.

 

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami says in Bhakti sandarbha (anuccheda 237)

 

Yo mantra sa guruh sakshat

Yo guru sa harih svayam

Gurur yasya bhavet tushtas

Tasya tushto harir svayam

 

The mantra is itself the guru

The guru is directly svayam hari

He upon whom guru is pleased

Also obtains the pleasure of svayam hari

 

What is the meaning?

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana says

"The guru's spiritual mood of service

THE INTERNAL MOOD OF SERVICE

to Sri Radhika and Krsna

is conveyed to the disciple

through the medium of MANTRA."

 

 

The internal mood of service

is transcendental, why?

Because bhakti is a function of the svarupa shakti

not of the material senses.

And to convey the transcendental (bhakti) you need the transcendental carrier

which is the transcendental sound MANTRA,

which can be vibrated by the transcendental person.

 

Who is the transcendental person?

The sad rasika guru,

The one that relishes rasa in his heart.

 

Everything is given in seed from within the mantra.

 

Go to guru, take the seed!

 

And sadhu?

Sadhu-sanga?

Oh, yes water the seed!

 

[kailasa 0]

"The devotees headed by Gadahara Pandita are to be considered incarnations of the internal potency of the Lord. They are confidential devotees engaged in the service of the Lord."

 

....These are the different stages of a pure devotee’s promotion to conjugal love in the service of Radha and Krsna in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

"in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." - can rise on a level approached devotee the Lord Caitanya and in maximum sense such as Gosvamis, Ramananda Ray and Svarupa Damodara. Ramananda Ray is devotee both sakhya and madhurya in Krisna lila, as he simultaneously Arjuna and Visakha devi.

 

There are various stages of pure fidelity and the culmination they find in the relations with Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu in conformity with the comment. It also is essence Gaura vani or message the Lord Caitanya. It is true bhakta rupa.

 

Svarupakam it Nityananda Prabhu or expansion the Lord Caitanya. Therefore guru there can be the one who will receive mercy the Lord Caitanya ( saksat, avesa, avirbhava ). Without such transcendental mercy, the person can not understand a nature the Lord Caitanya. Svarupa means to become devotee the Lord Caitanya on mercy of the spiritual teacher or guru and Gauranga.

 

Everyone, who is under protection internal energy, are a level of the approached companions the Lord Caitanya, such as Ramananda Ray and

Svarupa Damodara. Externally it is shown as perfection of race, knowledge, renunciation and continuous devoted service ( Svarupa Damodara, Ramananda Ray, Sikhi Mahiti and [Madhavidevi]). Both Ramananda Ray and Svarupa Damodara is embodiments of internal energy. By it SBST also is at this level of the approached companions the Lord Caitanya. Precisely just as His spiritual teacher Srila Gaurakisora.

 

Therefore all tattva the Lord Caitanya SP also is submitted. Srila Prabhupada represents in the books us SBST and quotes SBT as direct mood of fidelity in the maximum development. Srila Prabhupada represents us Rupa Gosvami, Srila Madhavendra Puri and all continuity GV. Therefore he perfect guru, pure devotee and perfect disciple really understanding a situation of the spiritual master as expansion of internal energy the Lord Caitanya.

 

Situation SBST highly because the dialogue with Lord Caitanya surpasses Krisna lila. The opportunity of personal dialogue with Lord Caitanya is a level which actually in Krisna lila in the certain sense is not achievable. Therefore svarupa in Krisna lila, for devotee Gaura lila, is somewhat secondary actually. Bhagavata devotee know svarupa Krisna lila, but work absolutely in the other mood. Therefore all links about svarupa Krisna lila in CC you can see, all this on a background, on the first place of game the Lord Caitanya and His devotee.

 

Srila Prabhupada saw SBST not as manjari, and as approached devotee the Lord Caitanya or internal. THEREFORE He spoke that He gold. But actually what to be or to become approached devotee not necessarily is beside. Simply Lord Caitanya on an example 3,5 companions learned everything, showing who in general can is at a level direct of the relations. The situation Ramananda Ray in renunciation is higher a situation both Srila Vyasadeva and Sukadeva Goswami. The knowledge of rasa Svarupa Damodara is so perfect, that behind some instants, how the mood the Lord Caitanya spontaneously varied, he already knew about it. What to speak about the analysis of rasa.

 

Lord Caitanya is accessible certainly through vani - gaura vani. Therefore SP does not emphasize Krisna lila, because main the purpose it not Krisna lila, though Krisna lila is described. Simply many understand that it is the usual books, it not the books of entertaining histories, it is the spiritual literature. For example dance rasa is described in the Book about Krisna, there there are all components. These descriptions also are the level, shown for all, of spiritual ecstasy, few qualifications are simple at us.

 

In general all companions the Lord Caitanya are perfection in fidelity. Sikhi Mahiti this perfection of a continuity of devoted service by it. Madhavidevi it is a mark that by it, that the women too are accepted. But as half of person all the same.

 

"The eternal vraja-vasis like Svarupa Damodara did not even come to Vrndavana-dhama. Sri Punjarika Vidyanidhi, Sri Haridasa Thakura, Srivasa Pandita, Sri Sivananda Sena, Sri Ramananda Raya, Sri Sikhi Mahiti, Sri Madhavidevi and Sri Gadadhara Pandita Gosvami never visited Vrndavana-dhama. SBST points out that we have no authorized documents stating that these exalted personalities visited Vrndavana."

 

Therefore nobody can anything understand about maximum spheres of spiritual life without His books. As Srila Prabhupada avesa avatara Pancatattva also represents thus Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Srila Prabhupada preaches the message Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu ( gaura vani ), that there is a maximum form of devoted service or internal energy, in the countries nirvisesa, that means all world.

 

But really it is the books for bhagavata devotee it is the books of gold century. I shall not make comments, but I can tell, that these books are similar to brilliants by it, but it is spiritual brilliants, it not cheap, it is a level sakti tattva directly. Now to show it it is very simple already.

 

***********

 

Interestingly that Srivasa Pandit having left Navadvipa has set off to village Kumarahatta, which is near Calcutta. There as is murti Srivasa Pandita in a Temple Sri Radha Krisna. There, in Kumarahatta, was born Sri Isvara Puri later.

[kailasa 0]

Last post it is good for your forum?

 

dandavat.

[anadi 0]

OJECTION of kailasa prabhu

Lord Caitanya is accessible certainly through vani - gaura vani. Therefore SP does not emphasize Krisna lila, because MAIN THE PURPOSE IS NOT KRSNA LILA, though Krisna lila is described.

 

REFUTATION

Oh, VERY dangerous nadiya -nagari APASIDDHANTA that

SB Swami Prabhupada himself denounced in the purport of CC Adi-lila 5.232:

 

"Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, the author of Caitanya-caritamrta, predicts in verses 225 and 226 that in the future those who manufacture imaginary methods of worship will gradually give up the worship of Radha-Krsna,

And although they will call themselves devotees of Lord Caitanya,

they will also give up the worship of Caitany Mahaprabhu and fall down into material activities.

For the real worshipers of Lord Caitanya,

the ULTIMATE GOAL OF LIFE IS TO WORSHIP Sri Sri Radha and Krsna."

 

[raga 0]

Dear Kailasa,

 

While I apprecite your desire to express your devotional self, I find that in addition to the often very confusing English of your posts there is often no particular point in your posts. The entire post should focus on making a certain point while other bits of information should be included only inasmuch as they participate in making the point. Sometimes it happens that there are posts which present many many bits of information from here and there without making a specific point.

 

So, could you boil down the essence of your posting in one or two sentences? In other words, what is the exact idea you are trying to convey?

[raga 0]

 

Oh, VERY dangerous nadiya -nagari APASIDDHANTA

 

 

What does this have to do with nadiya nagaris?

[Guest guest]

I think Kailasa is trying to express his attempts at resolving the confusion within himself that should really be dealt with by his guru. Unfortunately, he's not alone in being, for whatever reasons, unable to do so in these difficult times.

 

It's not always easy to condense everything into straightforward questions that can be readily answered by scriptural quotes, etc. Even a little sympathetic consideration and empathy for one another often helps us to sort ourselves out over time.

 

The simple fact that Kailasa is obviously obsessed with this particular subject matter speaks highly of his actual position, regardless of present realization or lack of it.

 

My point is that we can sometimes help each other unexpectedly, just by encouraging self-expression, even though it can mean admitting our own limitations. I really wish it were possible to be of more assistance, but ultimately all of us must depend on His Divine Grace in one form or another.

[anadi 0]

In the same purport to CC Adi-lila 5.232 SB Swami Prabhupada says

"According to them,

the system of nadiya-nagari,

which they recently invented in their fertile brains,

is the worship of Gaura, Lord Caitanya,

but they do not like to worship Radha and Krsna."

 

AS KAILASA PRABHU said

THE MAIN PURPOSE IS NOT KRSNA LILA (sorry for corrections).

 

"They put forward the argument that since Lord Caitanya Himself appeared as Radha and

Krsna combined, there is no necessity of worshiping Radha and Krsna."

Kailasa Prabhu put also forward very boldly some concoctions of his mind

with no logic and against siddhanta

 

Although this page is very magnanimous (audarya) we should rather ask questions than to spread wrong siddhanta.

 

I have nothing personally against Kailasa Prabhu, and I ask for his forgivness for any inconvenience.

 

But I love you raga.

 

 

[anadi 0]

First who is Sri Krsna Caitanya?

Sri Krsna Caitanya is Krsna, Krsna Himself,

who has stolen the moods of Srimati Radhika.

 

You didn't read Prema Vivarta by Jagadananda Pandita.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura used to read it and weep bitterly.

 

My Gurudeva read it and explained us some of the wonderful pastimes there;

as Sri Jagadananda threatened Mahaprabhu that will tell everybody that He is a thief.

because Mahaprabhu would tease Jagadananda and tell him that he is like a queen in Dwaraka.

Jagadananda said: I am a maidservant of Srimati Radhika and I will tell everybody

that you've stolen the golden complexion and the mood of my Mistress.

 

My Gurudeva says that truly Krsna didn't steal anything

but Srimati Radhika inspired Krsna to take Her mood, that He cannot taste.

Krsna says

I don't know the strength of Radha's love

with which She always overwhelms me. CC Adi-lila 4.123

 

The love of Radhika is My teacher, and I am Her dancing pupil.

Her prema makes Me dance various novel dances CC Adi-lila 4.124

 

Thinking in this way, Lord Krsna was curios to taste that love.

His eager desire for that love increasingly blazed in His heart CC Adi 4.136

 

Lord Krsna's own beauty attracts Lord Krsna Himself.

But because He cannot fully enjoy it, His mind remains full of sorrow CC Adi 4.158

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaha says

And so He was sent by His Guru (Srimati Radhika) to the school of Her Sakhis

LALITA as SVARUPA DAMODARA and Vishaka as Ramananda Raya and Srimati Radhika came Herself as Gadhadara Pandita to look if Krsna is a good pupil.

 

This conclusion of the rasa is extremely deep,

Only SVARUPA DAMODARA knows much about it. CC Adi 4.160

 

Lalita Sakhi as Svarupa Damodara guided Sri Krisna as Caitanya in the moods

Of Srimati Radhika

 

Sri Krsna (Sri is Radhika) come and show some of their pastimes in prakrita Vrindavan.

But who could understand , who could understand the glories of the parakiya rasa,

the glories of the love of the gopis?

 

O Arjuna, there are no greater receptacles of deep love for Me, than the gopis,

who cleanse and decorate their bodies because they consider them Mine. CC Adi 4.184

Spoken By Sri Krsna in Adi Purana.

 

 

 

[raga 0]

 

In the same purport to CC Adi-lila 5.232 SB Swami Prabhupada says

"According to them,

the system of nadiya-nagari,

which they recently invented in their fertile brains,

is the worship of Gaura, Lord Caitanya,

but they do not like to worship Radha and Krsna."

 

AS KAILASA PRABHU said

THE MAIN PURPOSE IS NOT KRSNA LILA (sorry for corrections).

 

"They put forward the argument that since Lord Caitanya Himself appeared as Radha and

Krsna combined, there is no necessity of worshiping Radha and Krsna."

Kailasa Prabhu put also forward very boldly some concoctions of his mind

with no logic and against siddhanta

 

 

 

Perhaps you are not aware of the history of the Gaura nagari tradition. Narahari Sarakara and Locana Das are the first sources in whose writings Gaura Nagari bhava is present, and since their days this tradition has been maintained in the village of Sri Khanda and at different places in Bengal.

 

Although the Gaura nagari tradition are not Rupanuga, they are not an apasampradaya per se as the ideas originate from Mahaprabhu's nitya-parshadas. Certainly the Gaura nagari tradition is not a modern concoction. Also they do not say that there is no need to worship Radha and Krishna.

 

Even Bhaktivinoda published some Nagari padas in his Sajjana Toshani.

 

So, indeed as you said, let us try to refrain from presenting wrong conclusions about both siddhanta and other traditions.

 

The topic of Gaura nagari bhava was discussed at some length in Raganuga Discussions. You may be interested in reading the thread there.

 

http://www.raganuga.com/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=1&t=15

[Guest guest]

 

Perhaps you are not aware of the history of the Gaura nagari tradition. Narahari Sarakara and Locana Das are the first sources in whose writings Gaura Nagari bhava is present, and since their days this tradition has been maintained in the village of Sri Khanda and at different places in Bengal.

 

Although the Gaura nagari tradition are not Rupanuga, they are not an apasampradaya per se as the ideas originate from Mahaprabhu's nitya-parshadas. Certainly the Gaura nagari tradition is not a modern concoction. Also they do not say that there is no need to worship Radha and Krishna.

 

Even Bhaktivinoda published some Nagari padas in his Sajjana Toshani.

 

So, indeed as you said, let us try to refrain from presenting wrong conclusions about both siddhanta and other traditions.

 

The topic of Gaura nagari bhava was discussed at some length in Raganuga Discussions. You may be interested in reading the thread there.

 

http://www.raganuga.com/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=1&t=15

 

 

 

 

Keep up your good work, raganuga.com!

[anadi 0]

Raga prabhu

please accept my dandavat,

and my lovingly feelings.

 

YOUR OBJECTION

"let us try to refrain from presenting wrong conclusions about both siddhanta and other traditions"

 

REFUTATION

The words that I published are the words of

SB Swami Prabhupada.

"According to them,

the system of nadiya-nagari,

which they recently invented in their fertile brains,

is the worship of Gaura, Lord Caitanya,

but they do not like to worship Radha and Krsna."

They put forward the argument that since Lord Caitanya Himself appeared as Radha and

Krsna combined, there is no necessity of worshiping Radha and Krsna."

 

They are not MY words.

 

1.

Do I have a wrong translation of the CC Adi lila?

2.

Nadiya-nagari are not the gaura nagari?

3.

SB Swami Prabhupada was wrong.

4.

If you think, you are right, maybe You can reconcile YOUR statement and

the statement of SB Swami Prabhupada.

 

Anyway I will try to read the article, which is 57 pages long.

 

Everything happens by the mercy of Lord Krsna.

Radhe, Radhe!

 

Govinda!

Gouranga!Nityananda!

 

My heart is full of joy!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Apasampradayas:

Gauranga-nagaris

Rasabhasa bhaktas

 

"From the life of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, an intelligent person engaged in pure devotional service can understand that He always felt separation from Krishna within Himself. In that separation He sometimes felt that He had found Krishna and was enjoying the meeting. The significance of this separation and meeting is very specific. If someone tries to understand the exalted position of Lord Caitanya without knowing this, he is sure to misunderstand it. One must first become fully self-realized. Otherwise he may misidentify the Lord as nagara, or the enjoyer of the damsels of Vraja, thus committing the mistake of rasabhasa, or overlapping understanding." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 4.106, Purport)

 

The gauranga-nagaris are quite prominent in Bengal and Bangladesh. Outwardly, they appear as regular Bengali vaishnavas, but there is a subtle sahajiya contamination in their conception of Lord Caitanya's mood of devotion. Thus their position is strongly refuted by the acaryas of the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya, even though other aspects of this sect may seem praiseworthy: like staunch vaishnavas, they wear tilak and neck beads, are good kirtan performers and strictly abstain from flesh and fish.

 

In his purport to Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.23.31, Srila Prabhupada focuses on the sahajiya contamination that the gauranga-nagaris represent:

 

"Sometimes the sahajiya class of devotees are interested only in Krishna's personal pastimes to the exclusion of the activities of the devotees."

 

But such an attitude can only baffle the attempt to comprehend the person and activities of Sri Caitanya Mahapabhu, for Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 1.14 states:

 

 

panca-tattvatmakam krsnam

bhakta-rupa-svarupakam

bhaktavatarm bhaktakhyam

namami bhakta-saktikam

"I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Lord, Krishna, who is non-different from His features as a devotee, devotional incarnation, devotional manifestation, pure devotee and devotional energy."

 

The gauranga-nagaris are not interested in Lord Caitanya as a devotee, or in His five features as the Sri Panca-Tattva. They desire to relate to Lord Caitanya as Krishna Himself, particularly as lampat (yatha-tathava vidhadhatu-lampato: "He is a debauchee, so it is His nature to do as He likes"). They style Him as nagara, and themselves as nagari.

 

The gauranga-nagari doctrine is very briefly and yet very completely explained by Srila Prabhupada in several purports of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. A few relevant quotes are as follows.

 

"...the gaura-nagaris, who place Lord Caitanya in the position of enjoyer and themselves as His enjoyed, are not approved by Lord Caitanya or by Lord Caitanya's followers. Instead of being blessed, the foolish imitators are left completely apart. Their concoctions are against the principles of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The doctrine of transcendental enjoyment by Krishna cannot be mixed up with the doctrine of transcendental feeling of separation from Krishna in the role of Radharani." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 4.41, purport)

 

"Doctrines like those of the nadiya-nagaris, a class of so-called devotees, are never presented by authorized persons like Svarupa Damodara or the six Gosvamis. The ideas of the nadiya-nagaris are simply mental concoction, and they are completely on the mental platform." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 4.107, purport)

 

"...a so-called party of devotees named nadiya-nagari has sprung up and introduced the worship of Vishnupriya. This certainly indicates ignorance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In the opinion of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, such worship is a product of the imagination." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 14.7, purport)

 

 

Refuting the Gauranga-nagari Doctrine

 

 

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In Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 1.5, Lord Caitanya is described as radha-bhava-dyuti-suvalita, "adorned with the mood and luster of Srimati Radharani." Nowhere in any revealed scripture is He said to be krsna-bhava-dyuti-suvalita, "adorned with the mood and luster of Sri Krishna," which would support the gauranga-nagari conception. Spokesmen of this apasampradaya not only say that Lord Caitanya exhibited Krishna's enjoying mood, they claim further that Vishnupriya-devi, the Lord's second wife, is Srimati Radharani, and that her close female friends are gopis. But as Srila Vrindavan das Thakur makes clear in Sri Caitanya-bhagavata, Vishnupriya-devi is actually Bhu-sakti, a form of Laksmi. The wives, mothers and daughters of Lord Gauranga's associates in Nadia attend Vishnupriya in her bathing and dressing exactly as the maidservants of Lakmiji serve Her in Vaikuntha-dhama. Their mood is different from the mood of the damsels of Vrindavan.

Sri Caitanya Bhagavata is also very clear about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's extreme gravity in His dealings with women -- even with His own wives, what to speak of other women. He never so much as looked at the village girls of Nadia, let alone smile or talk to them. But in the tradition of the sahajiyas, the gauranga-nagaris have invented offensive myths about Lord Caitanya's supposed love affairs with a mistress named Kancana and other fictional consorts. These stories should never be heard.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur appreciated the manifestation of Krishna's mood in Lord Caitanya in His dealings with Sri Gadadhara Prabhu. Sri Gadadhara was so meek and submissive that the Lord sometimes remarked to His confidential associates, "Gadadhara is My consort in the spiritual world." Indeed, Gadadhara Prabhu's spiritual emotions for Lord Caitanya are described as suddha gadha bhava rukmini-devira ("pure, deep ecstatic love in the mood of Rukmini-devi") in Antya 7.144 of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur thus worshiped Sri Sri Gaura-Gadadhara Deities in his bhajana. Here is an example of an internal flavor of attraction in an advanced devotee for a confidential feature of Lord Caitanya's pastimes. But this is not a subject matter for preaching. Lord Caitanya's preaching pastimes are relished in Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai worship, as seen in ISKCON temples around the world. This mode of Deity worship is performed to inspire the public at large to engage in harer-nama-sankirtan. But in any case, the worship of Sri Gaura-Gadadhara by the pure devotee has nothing to do with the rasabhasa of the gauranga-nagaris.

 

As Srila Prabhupada states above, the gauranga-nagaris are on the mental platform. Their so-called mood of devotion is really just eroticism, a creation of their impure minds. Their wrong meditation upon Lord Caitanya simply arouses their lust, and they foolishly take that lust to be spiritual ecstacy.

 

[raga 0]

 

YOUR OBJECTION

"let us try to refrain from presenting wrong conclusions about both siddhanta and other traditions"

 

REFUTATION

The words that I published are the words of

SB Swami Prabhupada.

"According to them,

the system of nadiya-nagari,

which they recently invented in their fertile brains,

is the worship of Gaura, Lord Caitanya,

but they do not like to worship Radha and Krsna."

They put forward the argument that since Lord Caitanya Himself appeared as Radha and

Krsna combined, there is no necessity of worshiping Radha and Krsna."

 

They are not MY words.

 

1.

Do I have a wrong translation of the CC Adi lila?

2.

Nadiya-nagari are not the gaura nagari?

3.

SB Swami Prabhupada was wrong.

4.

If you think, you are right, maybe You can reconcile YOUR statement and

the statement of SB Swami Prabhupada.

 

 

Dear Anadi,

 

With all due respect to Bhaktivedanta's contribution in spreading Krishna consciousness, option three is the correct proposal. He often wrote heavily critical words about people whose doctrines he did not study himself, basing his views on hearsay from others.

 

It has been pointed out here that his views on the doctrines of Sankara were at times rather misinformed, and I must note that his views on the Gaura nagaris and the followers of Ramdas Baba ("Nitai Gaura Radhe Shyam!") as they appear in his Caitanya Caritamrita commentaries are equally misinformed.

 

But it is good that you are still happy!

[raga 0]

Dear Guest,

 

You are quoting from a misinformed booklet compiled by Suhotra Swami -- without even acknowledging the source. He wrote the booklet based on what he read in the commentaries of Bhaktivedanta (which do not often accurately represent the views of those whom he criticizes) as well as on something he learned from other Hare Krishnas while speaking with them. Then he mixed it all up in his head and produced something inaccurate without actuall bothering to study the writings and tradition of those whom he criticizes.

 

Let me state this again: If one wishes to object to anyone's views, he should be well acquainted with them -- particularly if this is done in writing! Otherwise one will (1) cause confusion and (2) make a fool out of himself.

 

<hr>

"Doctrines like those of the nadiya-nagaris, a class of so-called devotees, are never presented by authorized persons like Svarupa Damodara or the six Gosvamis. The ideas of the nadiya-nagaris are simply mental concoction, and they are completely on the mental platform." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi 4.107, purport)

 

So Narahari Sarakara and Locana Das Thakura are now bogus devotees on mental platform?

 

From Locana Das's Dhamali:<blockquote><font color=darkblue><center>zuna go marama sai tomAre marama kai

nA kahile nA pAri rahite

ei nava yauvana jAti kula prANadhana

sAdha haya gauracAnde dite

snighdha kAnti sumAdhuryya dekhiyA ke dhare dhairyya

garabiNIra garaba lukAya

bede zuna raGga Ara kone kone abalAra

anurAga antare bArAya

mana tAra kare curi diye anurAgera dhuri

Ananda-rasera nidhi gorA

emana kariyAche hiyA e deha gaurAGga diyA

rasera bhikSAri hai morA

rasAnanda rase bhorA bhAle bhulAila gorA

baulI haila saba nArI

e dAsa locana bale naraharira padatale

gaurAGgera jAo balihAri</center>

”Oh my dearest sakhI. I´m confiding in you because I cannot go on without revealing my secret; so listen:

My new youth, my caste prestige, my family attachment, plus the wealth of my love – I shall offer it all to GorAcAnda. Seeing the irresistable sweetness of His effulgent limbs – who can remain patient? For even arrogant women hide their pride when viewing Him. And what is more amusing...listen: young, inexperienced girls just can´t check their attraction which generates from within. For seeing their anurAga – He ropes their minds – and pulls them to Him! Hence GorA is the Jewel of pleasure. So I´ve made up my mind: I´m just going to offer my body to GaurAGga...and let´´s all become beggars for His prema! Aha! GorA´s intoxicating rasa-Ananda is overwhelming! And His magnificence devastates every young girl. Hence they are all going mad! Catching hold of Narahari´s lotus feet, the servant Locana exclaims, all glories to GaurAGga!”</font></blockquote>Was Locana Das on the mental platform when he wrote his padas? Not Rupanuga, certainly not, but a bogus person?