Death penalty

[Maitreya 0]

Today in the USA the mass murder Timothy McVeigh was executed for his bombing of a Federal building and killing 168 people in 1965.

 

Tim McVeigh had apparantly been driven mad by becoming disillusioned by witnessing the atrocities of the American Government.

 

Some people here and many in Europe condemn his execution by lethal injection as a barbaric act.

 

I support the death penalty myself and think it should be used far more liberaly.Child rapers for example.

 

What do you think?In India is the death penalty still enforced?What do Indians think of this?

 

YS MC

[Audarya lila 0]

My wife if Catholic and is firmly against the death penalty. We have had many discussions on this issue over the years and I, for the most part, have almost always argued in favor of the penalty.

 

About a year ago I was reading the account of the conversion of Jagai and Madhai and I realized that there certainly is room for another angle of vision with the Gaudiya vaishanva theology. I realized that if we had a Jagai or a Madhai in front of us today even the most outspoken critic of the death penalty would be hard pressed to support mercy in their case. Yet, that is the example that our Lord set. This has made me rethink the issue a little. I certainly have understood that without mercy - if I cry out for justice - I personally have no standing or hope for spiritual emancipation (even though I haven't committed the heinous crimes usually linked to death penalties in this life). So it is with this understanding that we have a merciful lord, that I personally would question such a hard stand in favor of 'justice'.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

But in the case of jagai and madhai the Lord was present to reform them. Today, without any systematic process for reform, there is very little hope they will change their heart.

 

Perhaps if life sentences were actually for life, and perhaps if life sentences were given more liberally, then more people would be against a death penalty.

 

 

[Maitreya 0]

Audarya lila, but from the angle of the States responsibility what should be the law?

 

I see the death penalty as having a compassionate component even if those administering it don't.Less to suffer for next time around.

 

Your point of Jagai and Madhai is well taken.Same with Paul from the Bible.He was a Jewish zealot that went around killing Christians until Jesus confront him with his mercy on the road one day.But those are extraordinary cases aren't they?

 

"Among all means of surpressing lawlessness I am punishment..."Bg 10.38

 

What about a society where the citizens have to bar the windows of their homes for fear of the criminals?

 

How do we balance mercy and justice?

 

YS MC

[Audarya lila 0]

We should never forget that the Lord is still present to reform us all in the form of the Holy Name.

 

What kind of faith do we have if we don't have faith that the Holy Name is non-different from Krsna and that he has all the powers of the Godhead? Jnana dasa, I know you have faith, I have read your many wonderful, intelligent and devotional posts on this forum and others as well. I merely point out the the Lord is fully present today as he was 500 years ago.

 

As far as justice goes, I am not suggesting that we have none and have a lawless society wherein everyone is afraid to step outside. I am merely suggesting that we think about what Lord Chaitanya has given us and think about applying that to everyone, regardless of how sinful they may be. Jagai and Madhai didn't have to atone for their sins by being killed in order to - come to a higher positon later. By accepting the mercy given to them they were able to embrace devotional service and they repented deeply within themselves for their heinous past. Anyone is capable of this. That's all I am saying. We often times want to stress the need for a good justice system and a government that follows and upholds religious principles but I don't often hear devotees talking about administering mercy in this regard. I just wanted to present another side of this picture for you all to think about. I don't have all the answers - I am merely suggesting that it is worth looking at this issue from another perspective.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[dasanudas 0]

Altho mercy is above justice as Srila Sridhara Maharaj has stated. I'm with MC on this one I see it as mercy to cut the disease out before it proliferates.

When these world judicial systems are watered down the place fills up with worse and worse criminals who have no deterrant to stop their spree, if they can be seen to get away with it, others will follow.

There has to be standards, no rules and regulations=anarchy, regardless of whether the place needs some wake up calls. When anything goes it's a pretty spooky environment to live in. No shelter for your kids creates animal society, to kill or be killed that becomes the question. Of course it may all be a reaction to greater injustice in a killers mind.

Having said that I wouldn't like to flick the switch. I think there are those like Lord Yamas staff, who seemed to be cut out for the job.

If the killing is justified then it will all be sorted out on the other side, in the highest court, where none of us get away with anything.

Personally I don't think throwing a rock and blowin' hundreds of souls away is quite the same playing field, like in the middle east. If someone hada' mutilated Rupa or Sanatan it may have been a different ball game, we'll never know.

Does this same law apply to Hannibal Leckta and his wannabe's?

Also these criminals are not losing their life rather just the opportunity to fully pay their debts in this body, but they will get another chance in their next bod. and at least some of that debt is cleaned in losing one lifetime.

I know Jesus example is higher than Moses teaching but that doesn't mean the law should be abolished otherwise the nature of the jivas here is to exploit the system and Lord it even worse over the meek and humble.

[dasanudas 0]

I love Nityanandas, Haridas' and Jesus example of mercy, of giving love for hate, compassion for injustice, and I think it has all been exhibited for us all to change our hearts, it's the highest ideal and we fully agree that it is the answer to make an ideal environment for us all to feel safe and loved. But it isn't in place, it's a nightmare, and we're aspiring in our meagre way, to make some small change thru presenting these examples to that warped misconception, as best we can.

How many martyrs need to lay down their lives to the fanatics that believe they themselves are actually the martyrs. Unfortunately there are players out there like the Kazi, Pilate and Lekta who don't play by the book, they are blocking the movement of divinity. And the jails are getting too full of them, so what to do, turn them loose on society again?

These people are not taking to the sankirtan movement prabhu, altho maybe I'm an exception.

Only hypothetical prabhus, but if your Gurudev (not that he ever would be) was in that building, how would you feel?

If we see it all as the will of Krsna then He must be condoning such an act, and likewise the execution, if it has come to pass, nothing moves without His will they say, except all those with their own free will. This takes me into the Mahabharat and the inconceivable.

Big subject.Just a few other angles, appreciate your angle Audarya prabhu.

 

[Guest guest]

Timmy paid the price for his crime. When will the Butcher of Waco (Janet Reno)?

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by rand0M aXiS:

Timmy paid the price for his crime. When will the Butcher of Waco (Janet Reno)?

That butcherer of Waco has the nerve to consider running for Governer of Florida.No shama, no conscience.

 

Hey randOM I hear Horiuchi[sp], that demon FBI murderer may have to stand trial in Idaho.Any info?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, Lon Horiuchi will be tried for manslaughter for the cold-blooded murder of Randy Weaver's wife and baby. The Bonner County prosecuter who first attempted it has been voted out of office, and the folks around here (Sandpoint, Ruby Ridge, et al) are split 50/50. The trial will be in federal court down in Boise.

 

<h2>Remember Ruby Ridge!</h2>

 

 

Interesting sidenote, Lon was in Waco murdering kids also. Vengeance is a plate best served cold.....

[Guest guest]

<h3>Court: FBI Sharpshooter May Be Charged in Ruby Ridge Slaying</h3>

 

SAN FRANCISCO — A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that an FBI sharpshooter can be tried by Idaho prosecutors for manslaughter in the slaying of white separatist Randy Weaver's wife during the 1992 Ruby Ridge standoff.

 

The ruling from a sharply divided 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals revives a case mentioned in the same breath as Waco and cited by Timothy McVeigh as motivation for the Oklahoma City bombing.

 

It could also mean that FBI officials will be hauled into court to defend decisions made during the 11-day confrontation in northern Idaho. The agency is already stinging from recent gaffes in the bombing case and the recent indictment of agent Robert Hanssen on espionage charges.

 

The Ruby Ridge case is seen as a test of whether federal agents are immune from state prosecution. The federal government declined to prosecute agent Lon Horiuchi, but Tuesday's ruling clears the way for Idaho prosecutors to pursue charges against him in the death of Vicki Weaver, 42.

 

"When federal officers violate the Constitution, either through malice or excessive zeal, they can be held accountable for violating the state's criminal laws," Judge Alex Kozinski wrote in the 6-5 decision.

 

The court agreed with Idaho's contention that immunity cannot be granted until there is a hearing to determine whether Horiuchi acted unlawfully. If a judge rules Horiuchi broke the law, the case can go before a jury, the court ruled.

 

The panel rejected arguments that it didn't matter whether Weaver's death was the result of excessive force.

 

"When federal law enforcement agents carry out their responsibilities, they can cause destruction of property, loss of freedom, and as in this case, loss of life — all which might violate the state's criminal laws," Kozinski said.

 

Horiuchi's attorney, Adam Hoffinger, declined comment and a Justice Department spokesman wouldn't say whether the decision will be appealed.

 

Outgoing FBI Director Louis J. Freeh said he was disappointed with the ruling and said the agency stands behind Horiuchi.

 

"As so often happens in law enforcement, split-second life and death decisions must be made by those sworn to enforce the law," Freeh said. "We continue to believe strongly agent Horiuchi met the legal standard that protects law enforcement officers when they carry out their duties, even when the consequence in hindsight is regrettable."

 

Ramsey Clark, a former U.S. attorney general under President Johnson who argued the case for Boundary County, Idaho, called the ruling "courageous" and said it showed that law enforcement would be held accountable for violence.

 

Randy Weaver also praised the decision. "We've said all along that federal agents should be held accountable for their actions just like the rest of us," Weaver said from his home in Jefferson, Iowa. "If the state can't bring charges, who will hold them responsible?

 

"We're happy with the decision," he said. "The American people should be happy with the decision. It's a good day for America and the justice system."

 

Stephen Yagman, who also represented Idaho in the case, said the decision was a significant victory for individual and states' rights.

 

"It puts another nail in the open coffin ... of the FBI," he said.

 

The standoff prompted a nationwide debate on the use of force by federal agencies.

 

It began after federal agents tried to arrest Randy Weaver for failing to appear in court to face charges of selling two illegal sawed-off shotguns. His cabin had been under surveillance for several months.

 

The violence began with the deaths of Deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan, Weaver's 14-year-old son, Samuel, and the Weaver family dog, Striker.

 

Horiuchi later shot and killed Weaver's wife and wounded family friend Kevin Harris. Witnesses said the sharpshooter fired as Vicki Weaver held open the cabin door, her 10-month-old baby in her arms, to let her husband, their daughter and Harris inside.

 

Horiuchi has said he didn't see Vicki Weaver when he fired at Harris, who was armed and was ducking inside the cabin. He also said he fired to protect a government helicopter overhead.

 

The appeals court appeared troubled with the case. Those in dissent said the majority was using hindsight in "dissecting the mistakes" of Horiuchi.

 

They called the majority's opinion a "grave disservice" to FBI agents and argued that Horiuchi, who is still an FBI agent, should be immune from prosecution.

 

"Every day in this country, federal agents place their lives in the line of fire to secure the liberties that we all hold dear," Judge Michael Daly Hawkins wrote for the minority. "There will be times when those agents make mistakes, sudden judgment calls that turn out to be horribly wrong.

 

"We seriously delude ourselves if we think we can serve the cause of liberty by throwing shackles on those agents and hauling them to the dock of a state criminal court when they make such mistakes."

 

The standoff ended after Harris and Weaver surrendered. Both men were acquitted of murder, conspiracy and other federal charges. Weaver was convicted of failing to appear for trial on the firearms charge.

 

In 1995, the government paid Weaver and his three surviving children $3.1 million for the killings of Weaver's wife and son.

 

The Justice Department last summer settled the last civil lawsuit stemming from the standoff. The government admitted no wrongdoing, but paid Harris $380,000 to drop his $10 million civil damage suit.

 

 

[Jagat 1]

I am in general against the death penalty, but in Timothy McVeigh's case, I find it rather difficult to maintain consistency. But then some say that absolute consistency is foolishness.

 

One thing is that the state and the individual cannot necessarily operate by the same rules. Nityananda was responding individually to an act of agression. He was not an officially designated representative of the state.

 

The state has to operate in ways that are sometimes repressive for the greater good of the collectivity. A balance has to be found between the police state and anarchy.

 

This does not mean that the death penalty is a good idea as a tool of state enforcement. In general, strangely enough, despite their promotion in principle of individual freedoms, the American people are more accepting of state repression than most other societies. They incarcerate petty criminals at a rate unequalled anywhere in the world, and I could go on.

 

Now, as to the argument presented above that Nityananda was God and so his way of doing things cannot be used as a practical example: This is a dangerous and incorrect argument. Nityananda was God in human form, therefore his example is most definitely meant to be followed.

 

Jagat

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 06-12-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Today in the USA the mass murder Timothy McVeigh was executed for his bombing of a Federal building and killing 168 people in 1965.

Was McVeigh really executed?

 

The guards accomanying him on his death walk were not from the prison, they were were

"volunteers" brought in to spare the regular guards the trauma they say because they get emotionally attached to the inmates (They really said that).

 

No autopsy

 

No body. It was to be "cremated"

 

No video of execution.

 

Controlled limited viewing of execution using windows and curtains.

 

Possibly no death (2 media witnesses: one says his chest was still moving, another said he couldn't tell at any point that Mcveigh had died)

 

No family at execution (McVeigh told them to stay away)

 

No verbal statement (Maybe all those letters and bluster to the media weren't from Mcveigh)

 

McVeigh calm as a cucumber

 

Decoy used to throw off doubters who follow the hearse. The real McVeigh rides away in a van for his facial surgery and either witness protection program or his next mission.

 

 

[Bhakta Shakta 0]

Previously posted by Audarya lila

About a year ago I was reading the account of the conversion of Jagai and Madhai and I realized that there certainly is room for another angle of vision with the Gaudiya vaishanva theology. I realized that if we had a Jagai or a Madhai in front of us today even the most outspoken critic of the death penalty would be hard pressed to support mercy in their case.

 

There is certainly room for many angles of vision in Gaudiya Vaisnava theology. Why would an outspoken critic of the death penalty be hard pressed to support mercy on Sri Jagai and Madhai. Lets not forget Sri Jagai and Madhai are doorkeepers of Vaikunthaloka descending to set an example of deliverance and glorify Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

 

I certainly have understood that without mercy - if I cry out for justice - I personally have no standing or hope for spiritual emancipation (even though I haven't committed the heinous crimes usually linked to death penalties in this life). So it is with this understanding that we have a merciful lord, that I personally would question such a hard stand in favor of 'justice'.

 

 

Hold it there. Lets not forget everything is under Lord Krishna's supervision and control - including the dispension of state laws which are incarnations of Dharma (justice). The application of justice with spiritual emancipation - in essence they are the same thing.

[dasanudas 0]

Krsna condones the 'death penalty' that He put in place along long time ago.

Fortunately for us He also condones the 'Life benediction' which He also dishes out on occasion, thru his other self and that big golden heart.

[Gauracandra 1]

June 15, 2001

U.S. Religious Leaders Disagree on Death Penalty

 

The national debate over the death penalty intensified on several fronts this week. Religious groups from the nation's Catholic bishops to the Reform Jewish movement, condemned the execution of Timothy McVeigh and renewed their call for an end to capital punishment.

 

Other religious leaders argued that McVeigh's execution was morally necessary to achieve true justice and retribution. Meanwhile, a theologically diverse coalition of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist leaders urged the U.S. Supreme Court to halt all future executions of mentally retarded inmates. The High Court will take up a case on that issue next term.

 

Also this week, the Bush administration said it would launch a comprehensive study to determine if the federal death penalty is being implemented fairly. The Justice Department rejected calls for a moratorium on federal executions pending completion of the study. Federal prisoner Juan Raul Garza is scheduled to be executed on Tuesday.