Saguna and Nirguna Brahman, Shlokas from Vaishnava Literature

[jijaji 0]

Saguna and Nirguna Brahman, Shlokas from Vaishnava Literature

 

The ultimate reality is generally spoken of by philosophers as being either

the Saguna Brahman- one with attributes, and the Nirguna Brahman which

is without any attribute whatsoever. Although, Shankara's Advaita

accepts the Nirguna Brahman as the Absolute Reality, it is to be noted that

Shankara does not treat the Saguna Brahman as a fictitious entity or a mere

figment of imagination. He says:

 

nirguNam apisadbrahma nAmarUpagatiguNaih saguNam upAsanArtham tatra tatra

upadishyate |

 

Although Brahman is Nirguna, yet for purpose of meditation (upAsanA)

the SaguNa Brahman endowed with qualities like name, form, etc, is

taught.

 

The Saguna Brahman is said to be the Nirguna Brahman associated with

Maya. If Shankara thus treats the Saguna Brahman as a modification of the

Nirguna Brahman, the converse is the case with Vaishnava philosophers like

Madhva.

 

Jayatirtha, the famous author of Nyayasudha, which is a truly remarkable

commentary on the Anuvyakhyana of Madhva, summarizes the different views

on Brahman supported by the Upanishads.

 

sarvANyapi hi vedAntavAkyAnyasankhyeyakalyANaguNAkAram

sakaladoShagandhavidhuram ekarUpameva param brahma

nArAyaNAkhyam pratipAdayanti |

 

All Vedantic texts proclaim with one voice the majesty of the Supreme

Brahman called Narayana as being filled with an infinite number of auspicious

attributes and free from all imperfections.

 

Jayatirtha continues:

 

kAnicit

apahatapApmatvanirduhkhatvaprAkRtabhautikavigraharahitatvAdidoShAbhAva

vishiShTatayA |

 

(The same Narayana) is spoken of negatively (in the Upanishads) as

being free from blemishes such as sin, suffering and liability

to material embodiment.

 

kAnicit sarvaparityAgena tasyaivopAdAnAya advitIyatvena |

 

(The same Narayana) is spoken of as the only Absolute Nondual Reality

which must be sought to the exclusion of everything else.

 

Besides, these two views mentioned above, Jayatirtha mentions a few other

interpretations of Brahman according to the Upanishads. Thus he tries to

show that although these divergent views on Brahman, including the Nirguna

nature of Brahman, are expressed by different passages of the Upanishads,

all the views may be taken to describe the same God, Narayana.

 

Madhva's school interprets Vedantic passages speaking of the Nirguna Brahman

as descriptions which only assert that Brahman is completely free of any kind

of worldly attributes, which are not blemishless. But this does not preclude

Brahman from having divine attributes, attributes which are not results of

the gunas Sattva, Rajas and Tamas.

 

Vinoba Bhave talks of the Saguna Brahman (Qualified Brahman) and Nirguna Brahman

(Nonqualified Brahman) as one and the same. In his book, "Talks on the Gita",

he says:

 

``Again and again that night, I thought of Sankaracarya, of the power of his

Jnana, his divine certitude in Advaita, the extraordinary, glowing vairagya,

nonattachment, which convinced him that samsara, this phenomenal life was

all false, of the majesty of his language and the boundless help I have

received from him. All night long these images stood before me. Then I

realized how nirguna is filled to the brim with saguna. Even seeing him

face to face would not have evoked such love. Even Nirguna is filled with

Saguna."

 

Vinoba is absolutely right. Even if a person exclusively meditates on the

Nirguna Brahman, when asked to impart this knowledge in a positive way, as

opposed to a negative definition such as ``Neti Neti", he will undoubtedly

describe it as Saguna: as AUM, Krishna, Rama, Shiva, etc. The great sage

Shuka was an established monist from birth and by the time he met the king

Parikshit, he was steeped in the experience of the Nirguna Brahman. Yet,

he derived great transcendental pleasure in narrating the Bhagavatam which

is full of the glories of the divine Vaasudeva. Such is the nature of Krishna

bhakti. Even the ultimate Brahman experience seems insignificant

compared to the transcendental bliss obtained by continuously drinking the

nectar of reciting and listening to Krishna's pastimes and panegyrics

addressing Him.

 

Shankara's Advaita emphasizes Jnana. The term Jnana is often misunderstood

to be intellectual scholarship. Shankara decries such theoretical

knowledge in his Vivekacudamani :

 

vAgvaikharI shabdajharI shastravyAkhyAnakaushalam

vaiduShyam viduShAm tadvadbhuktaye na tu muktaye ||

 

Being learned, skill in using words, knowledge of a

large vocabulary, and skill in expounding the

Shastras (scriptures), are all meant for giving superficial pleasure and

are certainly not meant for mukti or liberation.

(Shankaracharya's Vivekacudamani, Verse 58)

 

shabdajAlam mahAraNyam cittabhramaNakAraNam

atah prayatnAj JnAtavyam tattvajnaistattvamAtmanah ||

 

 

An elaborate network of words is similar to a thick forest where the mind

might get lost in wandering (endlessly). Therefore, those who know this

fact (about words) must undertake an effort to experience Brahman.

(Shankaracharya's Vivekacudamani, Verse 60)

 

On the other hand, Shankara speaks very highly of the path of Bhakti:

 

mokShakAraNasAmagryAm bhaktireva garIyasI

svasvarUpAnusandhAnam bhaktirityabhidhIyate ||

 

Among all paths to liberation (moksha), Bhakti (devotion) is the best.

Striving to know one's true nature is called Bhakti.

(Shankaracharya's Vivekacudamani, Verse 31)

 

Thus, according to Shankara, the objective of Bhakti is the same as that

of Jnana. However, according to Vaishnava philosophy, Jnana is subsumed

by Bhakti. Jayatirtha defines Jnana to be the

realization or vision of the Supreme God Hari and the knowledge of His

greatness. Bhakti is the combination of Jnana so defined with love for

God.

 

asmin shAstre yatra yatra Jnanasya mokShasAdhanamucyate, tatra tatra

Jnanamiti padena bhaktirIyate lakshyate, kutah ? sambandhAt | Jnanasya

bhaktibhAgatvAt | mAhAtmyaJnanasnehasamudAyo hi bhaktirityuktam |

In this work, wherever Jnana is spoken of as leading to Moksha, Bhakti

is to be understood. How? By relation. Jnana is part of Bhakti.

The knowledge of the greatness of God combined with love for God is indeed

Bhakti.

(Nyayasudha of Jayatirtha)

The greatness of Krishna can be understood by listening to (or reading

about) His pastimes. This also leads gradually to attachment to Krishna

and one thus becomes established in Bhakti.

 

shrRNvatAm svakathAh kRShNah puNyashravaNakIrtanah

hRdyantahstho hyabhadrANi vidhunoti suhRtsatAm ||

 

Krishna, singing and hearing Whose praises is holy, resides in the hearts

of those who listen to His glories, and removes all inauspiciousness

therefrom, He being the Friend of all saintly people.

(Bhagavata, Skandha 1, Ch. 2, Verse 17)

 

naShTaprAyeShvabhadreShu nityam bhAgavatasevaya |

bhagavatyuttamashloke bhaktirbhavati naiShThikI ||

 

When their hearts have been almost completely cleansed by service

rendered to devotees (Bhagavatas), an unflinching devotion to

Krishna arises, who is praised by transcendental hymns.

(Bhagavata, Skandha 1, Ch. 2, Verse 18)

 

tadA rajastamobhAvAh kAmalobhAdayashca ye |

ceta etairanAviddham sthitam sattve prasIdati ||

 

Then, the gunas rajas and tamas, the passions lust, greed, etc., will no

longer disturb the mind and one is established in sattva and attains

happiness.

(Bhagavata, Skandha 1, Ch. 2, Verse 19)

 

evam prasannamanaso bhagavadbhaktiyogatah |

bhagavattattvaviJnAnam muktasangasya jAyate ||

 

The person, who has thus obtained happiness by means of devotion to

Krishna and who is free from all (worldly) attachments, will directly

perceive the true nature of God.

(Bhagavata, Skandha 1, Ch. 2, Verse 20)

 

from one of those news groups..

 

 

 

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PEACE OUT NOW

[talasiga 0]

___________

Originally posted by jijaji:

Some select verses I thought fit in here on the 'Long & Winding Road'...

from * (Viveka-Chudamani) * by Sri Sankara

 

......

54. Reality can be experienced only with the eye of understanding, not just by a scholar.

What the moon is like must be seen with one's own eyes. How can others do it for you? .......

___________

 

Yes, so, other than the experience of

cut and paste

What can be said from Jijaji's experience?

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Guest guest]

 

Nice topic Jijaji, thanx and congratulations!

 

An elaborate network of words is similar to a thick forest where the mind might get lost in wandering (endlessly). Therefore, those who know this fact (about words) must undertake an effort to experience Brahman. (Shankaracharya's Vivekacudamani, Verse 60)

 

In fact this may also be consider the essence of the conclusion given by Baladeva and Vallabha, two prominent Vaisnava acaryas, concerning the paramount importance to undertake an effort to experience Brahman.

 

According to Vedanta-sutras ( 4.4.4 to 15), while discussing the characteristics of those who had experienced Brahman (muktas souls), Badarayana states that Brahman is to be considered as a non-dual substance made of sac-cid-ananda.

 

 

There duality never exists. Instead of it one should try to understand the concept of Absolute. This Brahman may be saguna (with a personal form) or nirguna (formless) according to mukta's will in this Absolute realm. In the stage of mukti the soul is also omniscient and may choice to have an individual form, countless forms, or no form at all. He will reciprocate with this non-dual sac-cid-ananda substance according to his satya-sankalpa condition, ie; all of his desires will be satisfied by Brahman. The mukta may create his own worlds in samvyoma to reciprocate with saguna Brahman and His personal aspect (that can be countless) by also having an individual form, many forms, or no forms.

 

Before the experience of Brahman, any elaborate network of words is similar to a thick forest where the mind might get lost in wandering endlessly! That is the conclusion of all Vedanta-acaryas.

 

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Before the experience of Brahman, any elaborate network of words is similar to a thick forest where the mind might get lost in wandering endlessly!.

All experience is in Brahman

None beyond It

VanaMali,

Lord of the Forest,

Finds those who know It

 

 

mowgli talasiga@hotmail.com

[Ajay Shah 0]

Thankyou Jija.

[Guest guest]

Talasigaji

 

All experience is in Brahman

None beyond It

VanaMali,

Lord of the Forest,

Finds those who know It

 

Satyaraj: One of your best poems, very beautiful. All experiences are in Brahman, but one should have the experience of Brahman. That's the difference between the elaborate network to explain Brahman and His direct feeling.

 

Yes, this is the conclusion, Vanamali finds those who known this Brahman. Not the others!

 

 

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Not the others!

 

Talasiga did not say this.

Talasiga says that VanaMali

finds those who know Brahman,

but Talasiga's aphorism

is silent on the "others".

 

VanaMali's findings

are not automatically limited

by the sayings of those that are found

or those that are waiting to be found.

 

limited talasiga@hotmail.com

 

 

 

[premananda 0]

That was very good Jijaji. On what newsgroup did you find this?

 

 

[premananda 0]

Jijaji,

 

So Saguna Brahman can have a number of different divine forms. I think that Sri Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan is the most attractive form of the Saguna Brahman, that I have heard of at least.

 

[jijaji 0]

a d v a i t a v e d A n t a

 

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

 

======================================================================

 

by Vidyasankar Sundaresan

FAQ8: How does worship by advaitins differ from worship in

other schools of vedAnta?

----

Very markedly. The orthoprax advaita tradition is closely allied to the

smArta tradition. which follows the system of pancAyatana pUjA, where

vishNu, Siva, Sakti, gaNapati and sUrya (alternatively skanda) are

worshipped as forms of saguNa brahman. The worship is done both on a

daily basis and on specific festival occassions dedicated to one of the

Gods. Questions of who is superior, vishNu or Siva, which are very

popular among many groups of Hindus, are not relished by advaitins. In

the words of Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati (1892 - 1954), the accomplished

jIvanmukta, "you cannot see the feet of the Lord, why do you waste your

time debating about the nature of His face?"

 

That said, vishNu and Siva, the Great Gods of Hinduism, are both very

important within the advaita tradition. The sannyAsIs of the advaita

order always sign their correspondence with the words "iti

nArAyaNasmaraNam". In worship, advaitins do not insist on exclusive

worship of one devatA alone. As brahman is essentially formless (nirguNa

), all forms (guNas) are held to equally belong to It. The particular

form that the devotee prefers to worship is called the ishTa-devatA. The

ishTa-devatAs worshipped by advaitins include vishNu as kr.shNa, the

jagadguru, and as rAma, Siva as dakshiNAmUrti, the guru who teaches in

silence, and as candramaulISvara, and the Mother Goddess as pArvatI,

lakshmI and sarasvatI. Especially popular are the representations of

vishNu as a SAlagrAma, Siva as a linga, and Sakti as the SrI-cakra.

gaNapati is always worshipped at the beginning of any human endeavor,

including the pUjA of other Gods. The daily sandhyAvandana ritual is

addressed to sUrya. The sannyAsis of the advaita sampradAya recite both

the vishNu sahasranAmam and the SatarudrIya portion of the yajurveda as

part of their daily worship.

 

There is another significant distinction between worship in the advaita

tradition and other kinds of Hindu worship. advaita insists that the

distinction between the worshipper and God, the object of worship, is

transcended in samAdhi. This position should not be confused with that

of some Saiva schools, which call for a ritual identification of the

worshipper with Siva, for the duration of the worship. The identity of

Atman and brahman is a matter of absolute truth, not just a temporary

ritual identification. Most vaishNava schools of vedAnta hold that the

distinction between the worshipper and God, the object of worship, is

eternally maintained.

 

 

 

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PEACE OUT NOW

[jijaji 0]

From a d v a i t a v e d A n t a

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

 

"Questions of who is superior, VishNu or Siva, which are very

popular among many groups of Hindus, are not relished by advaitins."

 

 

**I like this very much..yea baby!

 

 

 

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PEACE OUT NOW-OPEN YOUR HEART-STOP DOGMA

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 08-14-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by jijaji:

From a d v a i t a v e d A n t a

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

 

"Questions of who is superior, VishNu or Siva, which are very

popular among many groups of Hindus, are not relished by advaitins."

 

 

**I like this very much..yea baby!

 

 

 

------------------

PEACE OUT NOW-OPEN YOUR HEART-STOP DOGMA

 

 

<center></center>

 

 

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by cintamanidas:

<center> </center>

 

cintamanidas !

How could you be so cruel

to such a beautiful dove.

Please, let her loose

At ONCE !!

 

 

angry talasiga@hotmail.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 08-14-2001).]

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by jijaji:

From a d v a i t a v e d A n t a

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

 

"Questions of who is superior, VishNu or Siva, which are very

popular among many groups of Hindus, are not relished by advaitins."

 

Personally

I relish any question

that makes Them laugh

 

 

talasiga@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by talasiga (edited 08-14-2001).]

[jijaji 0]

Originally posted by cintamanidas:

<center> </center>

 

 

beautiful...

 

 

 

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PEACE OUT NOW

[jijaji 0]

more on pancAyatana pUjA,

 

In certain orthodox traditions the five divinities of the main tradition are all worshipped together through a sophisticated ritual called, pancAyatana pUjA, meaning worship at five altars. Here the divinities are worshipped not in their human-like forms but in certain symbols in the form of stones, which are nothing but certain rock formations available in specified locations in India. In this scheme of things, gaNeSa is the red somabhadra stone found in the bed of the river Sone flowing into the Ganges. The pancAyatana pUjA tradition may be taken as an intermediate stage between the worship of Godhead with form and the worship of the formless, because the symbols of worship as rock formations have certainly a form but they are also formless in that they have no parts like face, eyes, body, hands or feet. It is as though the devotee trains himself to tune the mind from the forms to the formless while at the same time allowing full scope for his devotional feelings in favour of worship of the form.

 

 

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PEACE OUT NOW

[premananda 0]

Originally posted by jijaji:

more on pancAyatana pUjA,

 

In certain orthodox traditions the five divinities of the main tradition are all worshipped together through a sophisticated ritual called, pancAyatana pUjA, meaning worship at five altars. Here the divinities are worshipped not in their human-like forms but in certain symbols in the form of stones, which are nothing but certain rock formations available in specified locations in India. In this scheme of things, gaNeSa is the red somabhadra stone found in the bed of the river Sone flowing into the Ganges. The pancAyatana pUjA tradition may be taken as an intermediate stage between the worship of Godhead with form and the worship of the formless, because the symbols of worship as rock formations have certainly a form but they are also formless in that they have no parts like face, eyes, body, hands or feet. It is as though the devotee trains himself to tune the mind from the forms to the formless while at the same time allowing full scope for his devotional feelings in favour of worship of the form.

 

 

 

It would be very inspiring to worship Salagrama-shila.