Dasha 0 Report post Posted February 8, 2001 ------- Brain damage can result in loss of memory, or intelligence as we know. And the brain dies along with the body. So how can memory possibly get carried on ? ------- It is not because your radio is out of order that the emission has stop. The waves-radio are still here but you do not have any more the instrument to pick them up. So for the subtles elements of the body they need the "gross" body to be express, but they will survive to his destruction. ------- You, me and all the people we know don't remember any of our past lives. Several of the cases who claimed to remember, were proven to be fake or wrong. ------- Several where proven to be fake or wrong, but what about the real ones? Even if only one of them were authentic would be the proof of the reality of reincarnation. On this forum many great learned persons speak of the reality of a life other than our present life in this material and temporary body. I beleive in this reality, but is there anybody who knows practically what is going to happen at the time of death. Many people have related NDE (Near Death Experience) experiment during chirurgical operation, and they all have a similar narration. White light, peace, harmony, great feeling of love etc... And this is comming from persons from which we would say that according to the scriptures they should be burning in hell while living their bodies. (they mostly have eat meat their life long and have done so many sinfull activities). Thank you for answering Your servant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gtam 0 Report post Posted February 8, 2001 Hi, We clearly see in our daily experiences several individuals who pocess things that they don't deserve.Their deeds are in no ways anything compared to the deeds one would have in serving a noble cause.This in itself is a proof that there is reincarnation they must have done some good deeds in their previous births. Again we also find a new born crippled child and other abnormalities,now how is this infant even accountable when its life as a human being has just begun again its reincarnation thats the answer.It could be because of its previous birth. The near death experiences of some of them are awarded to some people because they did some noble deeds in their previous birth.Again the extent of their experience is also according to their deeds( present or past).Some of the experinces they have could be elevation to the higher planets but may not be the ultimate abode of the Lord. At the time of death whats going to happen to us is something we all wait till our time of death to experience.The body of ours dwindles thats something that we have seen.We have heard that we think of at the time of birth is what we become so we know what we should try to think. If we identify ourselves with our soul then we know the soul is unborn so no death.For the soul departing from a body is not anything new it has seen it several times.Its like energy which becomes from electrical to kinetic and to mechanical and is taking different energy forms. Every moment we are dying and getting a day closer to death.So we are in someway having near death expeinces.For some it may be happiness and bliss and some it may be like Ajamila who was been claimed by both the Yamdutas and by Vishnudutas. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shvu 1 Report post Posted February 9, 2001 Hi Dasha, Brain damage destroys memory. There is no memory during sleep. It is obvious that memory is part of the Brain and is accessible only when the Brain is active, that is when the person is awake. If you consider memory as a subtle element which survives destruction and passes on to another body, then the person should be capable of remembering all the past lives. Since that does not happen what is re-incarnating here? --- Several where proven to be fake or wrong, but what about the real ones? Even if only one of them were authentic would be the proof of the reality of reincarnation. --- Yes, but I seriously doubt if there is any such person. --- Many people have related NDE... --- NDE is not the same as after death experience. So we cannot attach importance to that. Besides the white light and the relaxed feeling may be the way the brain dies out. Which is why all the NDEs are similar; just like all heart-attacks are. About eating meat- (Based on a posting that I read before) Man can digest meat [omnivorus] unlike a cow or deer. If God created man and intended him to be vegetarian, then he would have simply made him herbivorous. Why make him omnivorous and then say that he should be herbivorous ? We can rule out the religious angle to Vegetarianism. This concept started with the Buddha and the Jains. That was strictly on humanitarian grounds. One has to be vegetarian simply to avoid slaughter and for health reasons. We don't have to give it any religious overtones. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gauracandra 1 Report post Posted February 11, 2001 "Brain damage destroys memory. There is no memory during sleep." This is simply incorrect. We all have first hand experience of memory during sleep. For example, we dream of things we have seen or experienced while we were conscious. Also, after we wake up we can remember our dreams. Memory is obviously working when we are awake and when we are dreaming. Besides, it has been clearly determined that the brain is active when we sleep. Neurologists can even determine different stages of memory and dreaming by measuring the electrical impulses produced during sleep. How can we even have a discussion on the mind after this life, if we can't understand something so simple as the fact that there is memory during sleep. Something to consider. Gauracandra Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shvu 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2001 Hi Gauracandra, Allow me to re-phrase that. There is no memory in sleep as in deep sleep. In deep sleep there are no dreams. The same neurologists who can verify the process of dreaming, can attest this too. My point still stands, about how can memory live after the brain is dead? Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jahnava Nitai Das 2 Report post Posted February 12, 2001 "There is no memory in sleep as in deep sleep. In deep sleep there are no dreams. The same neurologists who can verify the process of dreaming, can attest this too." Actually they cannot attest to this. It is easy for them to identify a certain condition as being with a dream, but the opposite is impossible for them to verify. Regardless, the brain remains active at all times, as do other organs of the body. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shvu 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2001 What do we mean by the 'brain is active'? If the Brain is active at all times, what does Coma mean ? Obviously a person is not thinking when he/she is asleep. Far as I can see, if a person is not thinking, then the brain is pretty much in an inactive state. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dasha 0 Report post Posted February 12, 2001 Hi all, For sure I have not be very clear in my question, specially I forgot one important "detail" which is that all people narrating NDE clearly express whithout any contestation possible that they have all seen the scene of their operation or accident from above. They where all out of their body, to the point that they can explain the all operation whereas they where suppose to be deeply asleep. THEY COULD NOT HAVE INVENT THESE DETAILS. For me there is no doubt about the possibility of going out of the body, but I would be very much interested if somebody had experiment this fact practically. The second thing is about this notion of karma. We read in the 5th canto of Bhagavatam in many details what is going to happenned to sinners (as we are all more or less): a) These people having experience NDE never speak about frightening situation, but rather about a great feeling of love. Even if they did not experiment death in itself, as said shvu, it is not too far from it. Why do they find love where they will find the suffering of hell according to their deeds in this lifetime (and it cannot just be their "previous good karma" as suggest gtam). b)About the hell that we are suppose to endure for our sins: If we are in human bodies in this lifetime it is because we are very advance in our evolution since we have go through all the animals species. How can we loose it just because we have (for example) eat meat in this life time (I am vegetarian but anyway it is an example and so many people do eat meat) or had sex with another wife than our legitime. Also it is a good karma to have this human form of life on this earth, at a time where almost everybody have heard about spiritual subjects, so what is this bad karma to not be able to take advantage of it and progress further. Instead most of the people go the wrong way. Ho it seems to be very complicated, I should rather stop here, seat down and chant HARE KRSNA. Jaya Shri Krsna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shvu 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2001 Hi Dasha, My thoughts. Have you observed these points, anytime? The holy books say that, 1. You should not be satisified with material life. There is more than this. [This is the introduction of the problem by targetting man's natural greed] 2. There is an after-life, there is a God. 3. Pray to this God and you will in-turn get everlasting happiness and immortality.[barter with God] Then follows all the various methods of praying. These promises of permanent happiness are enough for people to get all excited and you know the rest. Basically the books create a problem and then offer a solution which follows a long path. Unfortunately this solution will happen only after death. Thereby preventing all possiblities of disproving it as false. They were clever people. Hats off to them! Meanwhile the person with great enthusiasm takes to devotion and worship and keeps hoping that he is fast progressing 'Spiritually'. One day he is dead and his body is carted away. End of story. No one will know if he indeed went to Goloka or simply died alongwith the body. A person who is not greedy for permanent bliss and immortal life will never bother with God and enlightenment. He will simply focus on living life to it's fullest, instead of waiting for something to happen after death. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gauracandra 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2001 "a) These people having experience NDE never speak about frightening situation" Hi Dasha, Actually this is not correct. I have seen programs before on near death experiences and there have been people who have described very frightening experiences. Such that when they returned they completely changed their lives. I don't recall the details of one in particular (the opposite of the white light) but I did see a program with an individual who did attest to this frightening experience. Gauracandra Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
