Controversial and Interesting

[shvu]

 

Hello All,

 

Here are some statements made by SP, which I pulled out of another forum. I am posting them here, because many of the disciples may not have heard these. It is definitely food for thought.

 

1) "If Mohammed as the servant of God and Lord Jesus Christ is the son of God, THEN WHERE IS THE BREAK OF THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION? After all the disciplic succession is beginning from God, SO HOW DO YOU FIND THAT THERE IS NO DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION?" (SPL to Vrndavana Candra, 19/7/70)

 

(2) Srila Prabhupada: "...Or the Christians are following Christ, a great personality. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. You follow some mahajana, great personality...You follow one acarya, LIKE CHRISTIANS, THEY FOLLOW CHRIST, ACARYA. The Mohammedans, they follow acarya, Mohammed. THAT IS GOOD. You must follow some acarya...Evam parampara-praptam." (SP Conv. Melbourne, May 20, 1975)

 

(3)Srila Prabhupada: "This is called guru-parampara, disciplic succession...This is our process. We are getting knowledge from Krsna, the most perfect. OR YOU GET KNOWLEDGE FROM JESUS CHRIST, THAT IS ALSO PERFECT, BECAUSE SOURCE IS PERFECT." (SP Conv. Germany 19.6.74)

 

(4) Srila Prabhupada: Actually, one who is guided by JESUS will CERTAINLY get liberation." (Perfect Questions Perfect Answers, chapter 9)

 

(5) Girl devotee: Is Jesus in the parampara?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. He says, "there is God. I am son of God". That is parampara (SP Bhagavad-gita Lectures 1975)

 

(6) Tamal Krsna: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus's words, reach the spiritual sky...

 

Srila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. HOW CAN YOU SAY WITHOUT? As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. THAT MEANS YOU ARE FOLLOWING THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.

 

Tamal Krsna: I was referring to a LIVING Spiritual Master.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual Master is not question of...SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ETERNAL...As you say that "by reading Bible",when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master REPERESENTED BY SOME PRIEST OR SOME CLERGYMAN IN THE LINE OF LORD JESUS CHRIST." (SP Morning Walk, Seattle 2.10.68)

[viji_53]

Dear shvu,

It is none other than SP's translation of Gita's 32nd sloka from 9th chapter says sinners like ladies, vaisyas & Sudras. How dare he says such statement? If Krishna consider ladies as lower birth or sinner , why should He call Radha as His dearmost devotee & why should He said He is indebted to Gopikas? If He consider Sudra as lowest birth why should He take birth in Yadava kula which is consider to be Sudras? Krishna took birth in all varnas to show that He is beyond everything. He said Radha is His dearest devotee to show that there is no difference between men & women as for as devotion is concerned. Men or women, the soul is eternal. Like dress the body is changed that is all. He should not have meant that lady's birth is because of sin. So it concludes that either SP did not not understand the real meaning of sloka or he is number one male chuvanist. May God pardon him for hurting His lady devotees.

Hari Bhol!

viji

[shvu]

 

Disciples do not like to face any controversies or Negative points about their Gurus. They prefer to avoid them or sidestep them as that is much more easier and convenient.

 

That is how the Guru becomes famous in the first place. The disciple is not in a position to question anything. And after the Guru dies he becomes immortal, thanks to the faithful missionary activites carried out by his disciples.

 

As long as we have disciples who do not want to question their Gurus, the Gurus will continue to thrive. For the Guru, If it is not money, it is the sense of power that he commands as a Guru, and the recognition.

[Gauracandra]

It is clear that Viji chose not to read Srila Prabhupada’s purport to this verse which states:

 

“It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower and higher classes of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there is not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination.”

 

Srila Prabhupada’s view was simple – everyone, regardless if they are a woman, a brahmana, a member of the so called “untouchables”, a westerner, Everyone was eligible to attain Krsna through loving service.

 

Srila Prabhupada in fact gave his women devotees quite a bit of freedom relative to the orthodox “Hindu” view. For instance, in “Hindu” society, a woman is considered impure due to her monthly menstrual cycle. As such she has no access to act as a pujari. Yet Srila Prabhupada allowed his female disciples to take up such direct service as acting as pujaris for the deities. Why did he do this? In fact he was criticized by many traditional “hindus” for this. The reason he did this was because he wanted to encourage everyone, including western women, to engage in devotional service. Everyone is welcome to serve the Lord.

 

Now it is very easy to take a very western view of the world, and pretend that the Vedic scriptures put men and women on the same platform. But they don’t. Anyone who has ever read even parts of the Manu Samhita will clearly be able to determine that this is not some post-feminist book on rules and ethics. The following are some examples, agree or disagree, of the Vedic view of women taken from the Manu Samhita:

 

Chapter 2

213. It is the nature of women to seduce men in this (world); for that reason the wise are never unguarded in (the company of) females.

 

214. For women are able to lead astray in (this) world not only a fool, but even a learned man, and (to make) him a slave of desire and anger.

 

Chapter4

41. For the wisdom, the energy, the strength, the sight, and the vitality of a man who approaches a woman covered with menstrual excretions, utterly perish.

 

44. A Brahmana who desires energy must not look at (a woman) who applies collyrium to her eyes, has anointed or uncovered herself or brings forth (a child).

 

57. Let him not sleep alone in a deserted dwelling; let him not wake (a superior) who is sleeping; let him not converse with a menstruating woman; nor let him go to a sacrifice, if he is not chosen (to be officiating priest).

 

205. A Brahmana must never eat (a dinner given) at a sacrifice that is offered by one who is not a Srotriya, by one who sacrifices for a multitude of men, by a woman, or by a eunuch.

 

208. Nor that at which the slayer of a learned Brahmana has looked, nor that which has been touched by a menstruating woman, nor that which has been pecked at by birds or touched by a dog,

 

Chapter 5

90. To women who have joined a heretical sect, who through lust live (with many men), who have caused an abortion, have killed their husbands, or drink spirituous liquor.

 

146. Thus the rules of personal purification for men of all castes, and those for cleaning (inanimate) things, have been fully declared to you: hear now the duties of women.

 

147. By a girl, by a young woman, or even by an aged one, nothing must be done independently, even in her own house.

148. In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, when her lord is dead to her sons; a woman must never be independent.

149. She must not seek to separate herself from her father, husband, or sons; by leaving them she would make both (her own and her husband’s) families contemptible.

150. She must always be cheerful, clever in (the management of her) household affairs, careful in cleaning her utensils, and economical in expenditure.

151. Him to whom her father may give her, or her brother with the father’s permission, she shall obey as long as he lives, and when he is dead, she must not insult (his memory).

152. For the sake of procuring good fortune to (brides), the recitation of benedictory texts (svastyayana), and the sacrifice to the Lord of creatures (Pragapati) are used at weddings; (but) the betrothal (by the father or guardian) is the cause of (the husband’s) dominion (over his wife).

153. The husband who wedded her with sacred texts, always gives happiness to his wife, both in season and out of season, in this world and in the next.

154. Though destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure (elsewhere), or devoid of good qualities, (yet) a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife.

155. No sacrifice, no vow, no fast must be performed by women apart (from their husbands); if a wife obeys her husband, she will for that (reason alone) be exalted in heaven.

156. A faithful wife, who desires to dwell (after death) with her husband, must never do anything that might displease him who took her hand, whether he be alive or dead.

157. At her pleasure let her emaciate her body by (living on) pure flowers, roots, and fruit; but she must never even mention the name of another man after her husband has died.

158. Until death let her be patient (of hardships), self-controlled, and chaste, and strive (to fulfil) that most excellent duty which (is prescribed) for wives who have one husband only.

159. Many thousands of Brahmanas who were chaste from their youth, have gone to heaven without continuing their race.

160. A virtuous wife who after the death of her husband constantly remains chaste, reaches heaven, though she have no son, just like those chaste men.

161. But a woman who from a desire to have offspring violates her duty towards her (deceased) husband, brings on herself disgrace in this world, and loses her place with her husband (in heaven).

162. Offspring begotten by another man is here not (considered lawful), nor (does offspring begotten) on another man’s wife (belong to the begetter), nor is a second husband anywhere prescribed for virtuous women.

163. She who cohabits with a man of higher caste, forsaking her own husband who belongs to a lower one, will become contemptible in this world, and is called a remarried woman (parapurva).

164. By violating her duty towards her husband, a wife is disgraced in this world, (after death) she enters the womb of a jackal, and is tormented by diseases (the punishment of) her sin.

165. She who, controlling her thoughts, words, and deeds, never slights her lord, resides (after death) with her husband (in heaven), and is called a virtuous (wife).

166. In reward of such conduct, a female who controls her thoughts, speech, and actions, gains in this (life) highest renown, and in the next (world) a place near her husband.

167. A twice-born man, versed in the sacred law, shall burn a wife of equal caste who conducts herself thus and dies before him, with (the sacred fires used for) the Agnihotra, and with the sacrificial implements.

168. Having thus, at the funeral, given the sacred fires to his wife who dies before him, he may marry again, and again kindle (the fires).

169. (Living) according to the (preceding) rules, he must never neglect the five (great) sacrifices, and, having taken a wife, he must dwell in (his own) house during the second period of his life.

 

Chapter 9

5. Women must particularly be guarded against evil inclinations, however trifling (they may appear); for, if they are not guarded, they will bring sorrow on two families.

 

10. No man can completely guard women by force; but they can be guarded by the employment of the (following) expedients:

11. Let the (husband) employ his (wife) in the collection and expenditure of his wealth, in keeping (everything) clean, in (the fulfilment of) religious duties, in the preparation of his food, and in looking after the household utensils.

12. Women, confined in the house under trustworthy and obedient servants, are not (well) guarded; but those who of their own accord keep guard over themselves, are well guarded.

13. Drinking (spirituous liquor), associating with wicked people, separation from the husband, rambling abroad, sleeping (at unseasonable hours), and dwelling in other men’s houses, are the six causes of the ruin of women.

14. Women do not care for beauty, nor is their attention fixed on age; (thinking), ‘(It is enough that) he is a man,’ they give themselves to the handsome and to the ugly.

15. Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however carefully they may be guarded in this (world).

16. Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of creatures laid in them at the creation, to be such, (every) man should most strenuously exert himself to guard them.

17. (When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct.

18. For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts, thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood (itself), that is a fixed rule.

19. And to this effect many sacred texts are sung also in the Vedas, in order to (make) fully known the true disposition (of women); hear (now those texts which refer to) the expiation of their (sins).

20. ‘If my mother, going astray and unfaithful, conceived illicit desires, may my father keep that seed from me,’ that is the scriptural text.

21. If a woman thinks in her heart of anything that would pain her husband, the (above-mentioned text) is declared (to be a means for) completely removing such infidelity.

230. On women, infants, men of disordered mind, the poor and the sick, the king shall inflict punishment with a whip, a cane, or a rope and the like.

 

Now do the Manu Samhita descriptions of women apply to Srimati Radharani and the Gopis? No, because Srimati Radharani is the feminine divinity herself, above all rules and completely pure. Every action and thought of the gopis is pure, and as such they are above any rules and regulations set forth by Manu, for their only goal is to lovingly serve Sri Krsna.

 

Gauracandra

 

 

[viji_53]

The teachings of the Vedas are universal. Yajur Veda (26-2) clearly indicates all learned persons should preach the Vedic truth to all, the Brahmanas, Kshatrias, Vaisyas and Sudras. Even women are equally entitled to read the Vedas. God is impartial and can not be expected to be partial to one portion of mankind and antagonist to others by depriving them of their right to study the Vedas. In the eyes of GOD all are equally entitled to GOD'S gifts and nature like air, water, sunshine and HIS KNOWLEDGE. In the Vedic truth no one is great or small. ALL are equal.

Vedas existed even before Manu. Inspite of God's words through Vedas, Manu a typical male chuvanist wrote his sastras. May be it is also one of the reasons God Narayana took avatar as Krishna to show to the world that He is beyond everything. To stress on that He chose Radha & Gopis as His dearest devotees. It is true that woman is so determined she can concentrate on God & attain Him through devotion if she wants. If she does that the comforts of men who depend on her services are deprived. So some male chuvanist like Manu even today exist and talk about Manu sastras. Just because Manu wrote some foolish sastras it does not mean that women are not entaitled for certain things. I do not care a damn for it. I do not agree whether it is Manu or SP or any malechuvanist say woman is inferior or sinner or any nonsense. God is atttained only through pure devotion irrespective of caste, creed, religion & sex. No sensible person can disagree with that. May Lord Hari forgive the ignorance of all the male chuvanists.

Hari Bhol!

[sumeet]

Hare Krishna

Accept my Obesiances unto your lotus feet.

My dear Viji

You wrote:

" Manu a typical male chuvanist wrote his sastras. "

"So some male chuvanist like Manu even today exist and talk about Manu sastras. Just because Manu wrote some foolish sastras it does not mean that women are not entaitled for certain things. I do not care a damn for it."

I don't want to say something about the issue of woman discussed over here but I'm surprised by your comments about Manu in this way. Because:

http://www.bhagavadgita.org/Gita/verse-10-05.html

Manu is not some simple human being. He comes under the category of Saktyavesa avtar of Supreme Lord.

(Bhag 1.3.27)

"rsayo manavo deva manu-putra mahaujasah kalah sarve harer eva saprajapatayah smrtah"

 

All the rsis, Manus, demigods and descendants of Manu, who are especially powerful, are plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord. This also includes the Prajapatis.

 

Furthermore Lord Krishna Himself Recognises Manu:

http://www.bhagavadgita.org/Gita/verse-04-01.html

Manu is the progenitor of Mankind and a great devotee of Lord Narayana. How have you offended Him calling Him a fool. I'm most surprised to see such a behavior. The entire Vedic society follows the Law book of Manu since he is not just some simple human being. All the authorities of the past have followed His laws and they are specially made for the civilized society. Even Krishna respects it. And I don't think so that any women has had trouble with him or his laws. How could you ever argue that Manu wrote some foolish Sastras. And if I can recall properly Manu is even a mahabhagavat recognised amogst 12 great devotees of Lord Vishnu. How come you use such an offensive language aginst him.

Kindly don't consider that I'm personally against you but this kind of behavior towards Manu is never acceptable.

Kindly forgive this fool if I have offended you in some or the other way. I ask for forgiveness at your feet.

With Love

Yours Servant Always

OM TAT SAT

Sumeet.

[animesh]

I have not read Manu Samhita. So, I do not know what is actually written in that. But I must say that if any samhita i.e. law book is written at a time, then we must not think that those laws should be applicable at all times. As an example, many of the laws of Indian constitution may not be suitable (in fact may be extremely bad) after many years. At that time, if somebody tries to apply those laws, then it is his fault and not the fault of the people who have made these laws. Similarly, we should not think that Manu Samhita should be applicable at present also. If we try to apply these in present time, then it is our fault and not the fault of Manu. When laws are made then whether they are good or bad depends on the society at that time. When Manu wrote that samhita, then he wrote it for that time. We really do not know what was the type of society at that time. So we can not say whether Manu should be blamed or not. May be these laws were suitable in the society of that time. Even if the laws laid down by Manu were bad at that time also, then also we should not blame only Manu. He was the person who wrote these. But the general mindset of the people then must have been against women taking part in devotional service. There are many bad things prevalent in the society now e.g. dowry system. Assume that somebody likes this system very much and writes in a book that dowry must be given, then that person should be blamed but we should not blame him only because many (in fact almost all) people willingly or unwillingly go for dowry. Even women (from boy's side) support it.

 

Summary: Manu wrote the samhita to be followed by people of his time. Without knowing the society of that time, it is impossible for us to praise or condemn Manu because of the samhita. If the samhita was bad even according to that time, then also it is wrong to blame only Manu.

[sumeet]

Hare Krishna

Also please note the following from the same Manu-Samhita:

Chapter 3 verse (55-60)

" Women must be honoured and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands, and brothers-in-law, who desire (their own) welfare. Where women are honoured, there the gods are pleased; but where they are not honoured, no sacred rite yields rewards.

Where the female relations live in grief, the family soon wholly perishes; but that family where they are not unhappy ever prospers. The houses on which female relations, not being duly honoured, pronounce a curse, perish completely, as if destroyed by magic. Hence men who seek (their own) welfare, should always honour women on holidays and festivals with (gifts of) ornaments, clothes, and (dainty) food.

In that family, where the husband is pleased with his wife and the wife with her husband, happiness will assuredly be lasting. "

 

So see there are outright commands that those who seek their own welfare should always honor woman with ornaments and clothes and alos if your want any grace of god to come upon you better honor woman and see that they are happy. It is said above that that house in which woman renmains unhappy certainly perishes as if destroyed by magic. So happiness of woamn is the key to the household according to Manu. They must be honored. Although Manu asks the woman to remain faithful and chaste and loyal to their husbands he also warns the man that if at all he wants his welfare he must be careful to avoid giving misery to woman. He clearly speaks that no God is pleased with him who displeases woman. No sacred rite yield fruit where woman is in greif. Certainly Manu respects woman very much. So it would be wrong if we offend the progenitor of the entire Mankind in this way. He is our forefather and we all must have respect for Him. We are like his sons and daughter and none should entertain any offensive or abusive remarks for such a person. Again I'm not against anyone specifically but Manu being a learned sage, progenitor of Mankind and empowered manifestation of Lord Himself has to respected by every person in the society.

 

With Love

Your servant always

OM TAT SAT

Sumeet.

 

 

[viji_53]

As said in Rig Veda; let us perform our duty and leave the rest to God, iet us have deep faith in His justice. The world is torn by strifes, enmities and rivalries. In this dark whirlpool of turbulant stream of life, only all powerfull GOD may carry us across the ocean of troubles. Only He can captain our ship and bring it to the shore of divine fulfilment. The waves of stormy sea will become calm at His nod. Therefore let us dedicate all our thoughts and desires to GOD with full faith. Only He can bless us to conquer our troubles through HIS divine mercy.

Hari Bhol!

[animesh]

quote:

__________

Just because Manu wrote some foolish sastras it does not mean that women are not entitled for certain things. I do not care a damn for it.

_______

 

Some verses from Manu smriti:

 

1. In families where women are respected, the Devatas tread. (3.55)

 

2. In whichever family they are not respected, the ceremonial worship of the Devatas become useless exercise. (3.56)

 

3. Families in which the women are in sorrow, are quickly destroyed, but where the women are not unhappy, the family prospers. (3.57)

 

4. It is upto the father to protect her in young age, the husband in adulthood, the son in old age; she is not to be left alone. (9.3)

 

5. Nobody can protect women by force. (9.10)

 

6. Those women who can protect themselves (are the only ones) who are actually secure. (9.12)

 

7. Find a cultured, handsome and a perfect

match for their daughter. (9.88)

 

8. Even after she is young, it is much better that she stays in her house all her life, than be given away in marriage to an unworthy guy. (9.89)

 

9. After her coming of age, the young woman will wait for three years and then find a suitable husband on her own. (9.90)

 

10. The young woman, if not given away in marriage by her parents, and in time, finds a husband on her own, is not at fault. (9.91)

[Guest guest]

 

Sanatana-dharma's Natural Evolution and not Organized Religion

 

Gaudiya Math as idealized by is founder-acarya Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, is a mission to spread suddha-bhakti all over the universe. Suddha-bhakti is the only real sanatana-dharma, as it is the only dharma that really satisfy jiva's svarupa eternally.

 

As jivas have different eligibility, the schedule followed by Gaudiya-math is ruled by the talks of Sri Caitanya and Raya Ramananda, in Ramananda Samvada (C.c. Madhya cpt 8):

 

1. At first jivas should be conduced to sakama-karma platform, doing varnasrama and worshiping Visnu.

 

2. The natural evolution of bhakti will cause that jiva to enter into niskama-karma platform, when he offer the results of his karma to Sri Hari.

 

3. Niskama-karma leads to saranagati, when jiva surrender himself to Sri Bhagavan and gives up the path of karma.

 

4. Saranagati gradually leads to jñana-misra-bhakti, and the platform of brahma-bhuta. Then jiva may understand his position as a spiritual soul and his eternal relationship with Sri Hari.

 

5. With saranagati and jñana-misra-bhakti the door is opened to ananya-bhakti, or pure bhakti, that is ruled by the principle to make all efforts to always satisfy Sri Krsna, without any contamination of karma, yoga and jnana.

 

In the platform of ananya-bhakti one may be qualified to ingress into raganuga-bhakti, as Mahaprabhu has explained to Raya Ramananda.

 

An unaware observer may say that Gaudiya Math is preaching karma, or that it is preaching jñana-misra-bhakti, or vaidhi-bhakti.. . But actually Gaudiya Math is following the didactic of an evolutionary and natural progress of bhakti, and is teaching people according their adhikara, as explained by Sriman Mahaprabhu Himself in Ramananda Samvada, Rupa-siksa and Sanatana-siksa.

 

Therefore, the essence of all Srila Prabhupada's teachings is: "Suddha-bhakti is the only and exclusive jiva's santana-dharma." One should be aware that suddha-bhakti has its natural evolutionary staircase. Every step may take several lifetimes to be surpassed.

 

By Sriman Mahaprabhu's special mercy, when one adds harinama sankirtana into this staircase, all the evolution is accelerated. Even if one enter into the process into the stage of sakama-karma, for example, he may attain pure bhakti in the same lifetime. This acceleration is a miracle caused by Sri Mahaprabhu gatana-agatana-sakti, the potency that makes the impossible possible and vice-versa. He also added this sakti into harinama.

That is way Srila Prabhupada has caused a revolution in this brahmanda. He has accepted all risks to spread suddha-bhakti all over the universe. He has accepted disciples in all steps of sanatana-dharma evolution: avaidhis, sakama-karmis, niscama-karmis, saranagatas, jñana-misra-bhaktas, ananya-bhaktas and even uttama-bhagavatas and parikaras.

 

By his infinite mercy he has the desire to accelerate the process, reforming samskaras, increasing sukriti, and so on; doing everything in a very scientific way, to deliver countless hearts into Sri Radha-Krsna Yugala's lotus feet.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Guest guest]

 

Gudiya-Vaisnavism's Reform or Orthodoxy?

 

Some people are arguing; " Is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada a reformer? Did he come to reform the traditional sanatana-dharma?" But first we should analyze the concept of 'reform.'

 

Why 'reform'? We prefer to understand it as a regress to the original orthodoxy as established by Sri Mahaprabhu Himself in His talks with Raya Ramananda, Rupa and Sanatana, and others organizers of Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

We should recall that during Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's time almost all the pure teachings were lost. Thakuraji took almost 8 years to find a single manuscript of Sri Caitanya Caritamrta when he was a Judge at Puri. Gaudiya-vaisnavism at his time was a synonym of a deteriorate belief meant to debauchers and low class of people. There were so many apa-sampradayas, bogus gurus, apa-siddhantam and all sort of deviation after 350 years since Mahaprabhus's advent.

 

We cannot deny that only a few Babajis were practicing suddha-bhakti of a high level in Vraja and Navadvipa, in a secluded way, and very confidentially. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has forwarded the Ganga of Bhakti again in a modern and scientific way, becoming it accessible to ordinary people.

 

He has preached suddha-bhakti and has warned everyone on all sort of misra-bhakti, polluted conceptions of bhakti, that were (and are) so common among Vaisnavas. He has written so many books, essays, poems, in so many languages, and Srila Prabhupada's mission was to spread his guru's teachings all over the universe, employing all kind of modern and technological resources at his time.

 

He did not have organized a religion system. Only the old staircase of sanatana-dharma working in the same old way. He has accepted all sort of people in his mission: avaidhis, sakama-karmis, niskama-karmis, saranagatas, jñana-misra-bhaktas, suddha-bhaktas, uttama-adhikaris. He was confident that sooner or later they would attain a high platform of bhakti by the practice of harinama-sankirtana.

 

This was the method of preaching adopted by Mahaprabhu Himself while traveling through South India. He has made a previous consult with Raya Ramananda, and they had decided that Mahaprabhu should follow the natural evolution of sanatana-dharma to convey His sankirtana-movement to ordinary people. Mahaprabhu thereafter told to Rupa and Sanatana Goswami to write on this subject matter. Srila Prabhupada has only followed this instructions after he received them from his guru. He did not change anything that is write in Ramananda-samvada and Rupa - Sanatana-siksas.

 

Was Srila Prabhupada a reformer or a orthodox preacher in Sri Rupa Goswami's line?

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[Vijai Singh]

shvu

"(4) Srila Prabhupada: Actually, one who is guided by JESUS will CERTAINLY get liberation." (Perfect Questions Perfect Answers, chapter 9)"

 

Vj ~ Prabhupada is a dunce and he himself will be denied "liberation" for making such an ignorant statement.

 

It is misleading to believe that those (Christians) eating such a gifted and pure creature as cows can lead to liberation.

 

The power of good reasoning is essential for the liberation of the soul .

[Vijai Singh]

"Just because Manu wrote some foolish sastras it does not mean that women are not entaitled for certain things."

Vj ~Manu was a great Rishi of yore, they are called so because they were perfect beings by strenuous practice of true knowledge of Vedas. He nor any Rishi of yore could not have written anything "foolish" or degrading to any human being since their true nature of wisdom is meant for the upliftment of all human beings beginnning from the lowest conditions. Over the centuries many absuridities and contraversies have crept into the teachings of these great rishis mainly by ignorant people posing as Brahmins with the selfish motives of keeping the masses in ignorance for their own personal benefit. In short, if you must know the truth of Manu, The Light of Truth is where you must begin to unravel the ignorance that has befallen the natives of India for over 4,000 years.

[Guest guest]

>> It is misleading to believe that those (Christians) eating such a gifted and pure creature as cows can lead to liberation.

 

Many demons had attained liberation in spite of their diet. It is stated that Sri Rama has liberated Ravana and all the demons host, Sri Krsna has also liberated many demons, and all Sri Hari's avataras use to liberate demons.

 

So, it is clear that diet has nothing to do with liberation. If even demons, nagas, trees, stones, and so on can be liberated by Sri Hari's mercy, why not Christians?

 

Only very ignorant people would conclude that liberation can be attained only by following these elementary injunctions, or that God is a property of Hindu people.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[shvu]

 

 

I agree with Satyaraja dasa on this. Diet does not play a role in liberation. The Vedas have passages about how tasty the meat of a calf is and so on. Agastya, a sage, was a meat-eater.

 

The concept of non-violence was introduced by the Jains and the Buddha. Since then, it has found it's way into many Hindu beliefs.

 

Cheers

[Vijai Singh]

"Only very ignorant people would conclude that liberation can be attained only by following these elementary injunctions, or that God is a property of Hindu people."

 

Vj ~ There no educational institution in this world that will reward both a complete dunce and one intellectually brilliant with the same degree. Similarly, if there is a god that grants equal rewards of liberation to an idiot and a wise man at the same time, it will have to be a Hindu god.

 

The Yajur Veda says

ANDHANTAMAH PRAVISHINTI YESAMBHOOTIMUPAASATE

TATO BHOOYA EWA TE TAMO YA U SAM BHOOTYAAM RATAAH

"They are enveloped in darkness in other words are steep in ignorance and

sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal

matter - the material cause of the world - in place of the All-pervading

God, but those who worship visible things born of matter like the earth,

trees, human, animal and the like in place of God are enveloped in still

greater darkness."

 

It simply means that liberation is impossible for the ignorant who worship idols. And when comes to diet abstinence from alcohol, meat and adultery is necessary for salvation. There is no such thing as forgiveness - what a man sows that will he reap, no less and no more. Read this book - it is free - educate yourself if you want to know God to attain His bliss.

 

Namaste!

[Guest guest]

 

>>It simply means that liberation is impossible for the ignorant who worship idols. And when comes to diet abstinence from alcohol, meat and adultery is necessary for salvation.

 

You did not answer the question; "How did demons and other abominable beings have attained moksa?" Some saintly people who are strictly following all scriptural injunctions did not attain even Svarga in most of the cases. But Sri Hari use to give moksa to demons, and even prema to Putana who went to Vraja intending to kill Him.

 

It seems that you are employing the same concepts to attain moksa and to attain Svarga. We may agree that by following some pious conduct and avoiding sins one may attain Svarga-loka. But moksa is not attainable by any material process such as karma, akarma and vikarma.

 

Sastras states that only transcendental jñana can give one moksa, and not any karma.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

 

[Vijai Singh]

"You did not answer the question; "How did demons and other abominable beings have attained moksa?

 

Vj ~ If you weren't the idiot you are, you would have read the book, and educate yourself. There are no such things as demons, we are either evil or virtuous. You are an example of such evil for rejecting the true religion of the

Vedas while I represent virtue by the acknowledgement and practice of its (Veda) high learning. You will suffer millions of rebirths as animals before becoming a human again. So it is useless for you to speak of moksha when you know nothing of the Vedic Religion.

 

[shvu]

 

Hi Satyaraja dasa,

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Suddha-bhakti is the only real sanatana-dharma, as it is the only dharma that really satisfy jiva's svarupa eternally. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

I will add to it...

 

1. The Advaitins believe that Advaita is the only real Sanatana Dharma.

 

2. The Dvaitins believe that Dvaita is the only real Sanatana Dharma.

 

3. The Vishishtadvaitins believe that Vishishtadvaita is the only real Sanatana Dharma.

 

What now?

 

Cheers

[amanpeter]

What now? Realize our ABSOLUTE dependence on Divine Grace. Cry out for that same Divine Grace like a drowning child. Don't stop until you personally perceive that Divine Grace in the most tangible way. Cling to that Divine Grace continuously, somehow or other. Tears help...

[Guest guest]

I will add to it...

1. The Advaitins believe that Advaita is the only real Sanatana Dharma.

2. The Dvaitins believe that Dvaita is the only real Sanatana Dharma.

3. The Vishishtadvaitins believe that Vishishtadvaita is the only real Sanatana Dharma.

What now?

 

You made a very important point Shvuji, congratulations.

Any intelligent people who is not a blind follower before start his journey should at first choice his path.

 

If anyone wants so have a sadhana (spiritual discipline) at first he should knows his sadhya (aim). There is no sadhana without sadhya. Any effort without a goal is a symptom of absence of intelligence.

 

The aim of advaitins is moksa, and therefore their sadhana is jñana. The kind of jñana suitable to attain sayujyia-mukti, and its two forms namely brahma and isvara-sayujyia-mukti. As that is their aim, they will say that the real sanatana-dharma is jñana-marga.

 

The aim of dvaitins is also moksa, but not sayujiya. They want moksa at any Vaikuntha desiring to have the same form of their istadeva, to live in the same place of their istadeva, to have the same opulence of their istadeva, and to have the same characteristics of their istadeva. As these are their aim, they will perform misra-bhakti to attain them and also will say that that is the real sanatana-dharma.

 

The aim of visistadvaitins is to attain mystics perfection and also moksa thereafter. They will say that this is the only real sanatana-dharma.

 

Suddha-bhaktas are not interested in any kind of moksa and bukti. Actually they consider them as a great disturbance in their path. They only want to attain unalloyed bhakti lifetime after lifetime, no matter where they are. They do not worry if they will have to face hell, or if they will have to enjoy Svarga, or will have to born as animals, birds, or human beings again and again.

 

Suddha-bhaktas consider that their aim is prema-bhakti and this is not a place, nor it is limited by any space or time; this is a special mood, a feeling that can be reciprocated with their istadeva anywhere at any time. They will say that this attainment is the highest attainment that one may have, and the real meaning of spiritual evolution, or sanatana-dharma.

 

According each one individual adhikara, sukrti, baghya, and sadhu-sanga, one may attain or may not attain these different levels of realization.

 

dasas dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

 

[shvu]

 

Actually I should be the one to congratulate you. I never expected to see something like this from you. Shows how wrong I was.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Any intelligent people who is not a blind follower before start his journey should at first choice his path. If anyone wants so have a sadhana (spiritual discipline) at first he should knows his sadhya (aim). There is no sadhana without sadhya. Any effort without a goal is a symptom of absence of intelligence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

That simplifies things dramatically. So you accept that people choose different paths and goals based on their background and their individual preferences.

 

It follows that, there is no such thing as 'My path is superior, yours is false'. Only a person who has taken the time to study the intricacies of his sytem, knows what it is all about. For example, I am not in a position to comment on Prema-Bhakti, because I have no idea what it is. Similarly a non-advaitin cannot talk about the tenets of Advaita, without studying them from authentic sources. Just in case people are not aware, outside views of any system are usually biased and based on faulty, unreliable information. There are some Islam sites that write about Hinduism. If someone who has no idea what Hinduism is, happens to read this stuff, he will get a faulty picture of Hinduism. Because the source is unreliable.

 

Hopefully this clears away some misconceptions.

 

Cheers

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Similarly a non-advaitin cannot talk about the tenets of Advaita, without studying them from authentic sources. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

I think everyone will agree with this. The only disagreement would be on how we define authentic sources.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Shvuji;

 

All schools of Vedic philosophy consider sruti texts as a desire tree that may give you everything that you want. If you want bhukti, or sense gratification, sruti will give you instructions on how to attain it by the path of tri-varga (kama, artha, dharma). If you want mukti, these texts also will explain that mukti will be attained by the process of transcendental jñana, after you are freed from material tri-varga. And if you want bhakti, you should follow bhakti-marga, after you are freed from the kind of jñana that may give you mukti.

 

My own Gurudeva's institute is called Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti, meaning that Gaudiya is the same as Vedanta, and we learn how to follow bhakti-marga to attain prema-bhakti by observing the instructions given in Vedanta. We also consider that smrti texts such as Bhagavata are the natural commentary on smrti texts, and many slokas of both sastras are deeply correlated.

 

It is a wrong conception to think that sruti texts are monopoly of advaitins, as it is also a fake to imagine that smrti texts are only meant for karmis and for bhaktas.

 

The preliminary premise while entering in one of these paths is to find a self realized preceptor. Sastras are full of multiple purpose and no one is able to conciliate all their contradictions without a bona fide guidance.

 

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa