Moksha and Salvation

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

i find your reply very deep level which questions the basics of human thoughts. Unfortunately Abrahams may not be able to understand these because of their conditioning (in fact i doubt they don't understand anything logical or rational)

 

As for your statement, it is very true the concept of sin and virtue and hence guilty and elation has arisen from the knowledge of religion, which can be directly verifiable by observing tribals, they don't have any guilty feelings.

 

The concept of good and bad habits originally found in Hinduism, simply states this world because of its physical nature is painful, transient and full of sensual miseries with very little pleasure. So man should elevate to much higher planes by his actions (Karma Kanda) or just return back to his original non-material state (Jnana Kanda)

 

This issue was blown out of proportion by Abrahams used to frighten the people with the miseries of world purely for conversion purpose.

 

i think this particular threader (like many others) is really impressed by the organized way of christianity and its soothing effects and he thinks that all his sins have come to end and he had become a purified soul. But Alas this is only a transient effect (just like drugs and alchols) which dies after some time and all the earlier feelings comes back to haunt them.

 

If believing in Jesus would wipe away all the sins, then all Christians would be sinless people. And anybody who is sinless should be happy always. But our observations shows not all christians are happy always. So there is a logical fault somewhere (most probable answer from this guy would be - "they had not really believed in Jesus", but as far as my knowledge goes the current propganda is like if you just convert to christianity your sins are wiped away, no where it is being mentioned about the amount of belief that is required to wipe away the sins)

[gurukul 0]

namaste narayandasa and guest

 

My point is not that everything would be realised without the law revealed in religious book but the point was that we all at some or the other way feel the guilt and feel the sin within and outside.For such a thing we need no book to declare that we all are sinners.my above answer was a response to the particular question raised by guest weather I was using the bible to declare a person as sinners.my point was that sin is real and its consequences are surely felt.our freind guest denied that there is such thing as sin in the context of hinduism.my response is that we dont need a religion to know we are sinners.its a reality and felt in everyday of our lives.at the same time I quoted that the description of sin is even mentioned in hindu scriptures.

 

Coming to your statment-YES -HUMANS INHERITENTLY KNOWS TO SOME EXTENT (though not to the full extent) THAT HE IS SINNING SOME OR THE OTHER WAY.ITS REALISED ,FELT THROUGH GUILT.THE MORAL LAW WHEN REVEALED WITHIN THE FEELING CONFIRMS THAT ITS A SIN.WE SURELY NEED THE LAW TO SHOW IT AND CONFIRM IT BUT NOT REQUIRED TO SHOW THAT WE ACTUALLY ARE SINNERS BECAUSE ITS ALREADY FELT IN REALITY EVEN WITHOUT A BOOK.for example the first time I masterbated thinking of some other girl/women in my teens ,I felt the guilt within for long time.so was the confession of my friends.we were not religious or read any religious book to tell us that we are doing something bad.but we felt it.over the time period we supressed that guilt feeling and began to wildly fantacise things through films ,magzines ,porn sites ,imagining someones sister ,wife etc.when the religious law came to me It only confirmed that i am a sinner and helpless and need of cleansing and saving.so were the other areas like telling lies to parents,anger,jealosuy ,feeling of fighting etc.

 

Reality shows we are helpless and in need of grace to get saved.

 

to answer guest-christians dont say that they are sinless and thus happy hereafter once they put their faith in Jesus christ.thats a mere speculation.As a christ yeshu bhakta and my study of the bible -its yeshu christ who saves his followers from the consequence of sin of future Judgement with the assurance in the present.As a result of that assurance there is a security in the heart about life after death.The bible says " The wages of sin is death (eternal seperation from God into hell) but the gift of God is eternal life (life with God in heaven) through Jesus christ the lord (Romans 3:23;6:23)

 

 

[narayanadasa 0]

Jai Sriman Narayana:

 

So, how much sin is acceptable to God to put me in heaven for eternity? and how much is too much to put me to hell for eternity?

 

Can I now say, (1) God created souls for play (probably he was bored!, contradicts one important quality of God being eternal bliss)... (2) gave them some command (to not eat apple, without complete descriptions of what all that consists off) but do everything else (as freewill) unless guilt prevents that (3) and based on a single lifetime of 50-70 years do more good than bad (no estimating figures given) to finally decide where to put the soul (heaven or hell) for eternity.

 

If guilt alone is supposed to be the deciding factor to not commit sins (as you call it) which again varies from individual to individual based on individual souls that God created (amount of guilt varies) what still you are not answering is (1)Why is God partial to souls that he can create one child deformed and another without the deformity? (2) since every child inherits from Adam how does inerited sin and /or guilt vary between souls unless God created them with different qualities (being partial?).

 

[Guest guest]

In a clean and pure water if one drop of laterine water falls the whole water is thrown due to uncleanliness and contamination.In the same way it takes just one sin to put us into hell.God is holy and pure as the bible declares.he hates sin and that is why the wages of sin(singular) is death (seperation from him to hell) as per the bible.No amount of good work can save us due to contamination of sin within us.(as per the bible)

But the bible declares that God is love and in his love he provides an escape route to be saved from hell and seperation.he provides his son Jesus christ as a sacrifice for our sins so that atonement can be made for our sins through him.hence when a person comes through repentance and faith in Jesus death and resurrection(rising from the dead)all his sins are forgiven.he/she is granted an assurance of forgiveness of sins and eternal life and also the invisible spirit of God comes and dwells within that person to provide daily help and strength.hence you see its God who provides us an altenative and takes inititative to make arrangements to save us.thats what is called as grace in the bible.its an unmerrited favour of God to anyone who are in need of it.no one can earn it or work for it,its given under grace of him.a person may accept or reject this provision due to free will and face its results.

 

guilt is not the deciding factor to avoid sin but its the pointer that we are sinnful beings and is in need of help.

 

coming to your questions -1.God is not the author of deformity.the bible tells that due to sin and disobedience of man, the world has been affected greatly in nature,relationship and formation.what we see are the consequences of sin in the world.

2.Again God is not the author of sin as per the bible but we are for sure.there is no measure of sin.because sin is absence of good ,a rebellion against God.its the rebellious nature that we inherit.even under this inherited nature one can decide to sin or not to sin.hence the variation is due to the decesions and choices we make in life.

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

i asked a simple question---Why do tribals not feeling guilty or sin, please answer that

 

if our ancestors were so much depressed and felt guilty , surely we could not have such great art, music, architecture, philoshopies and in short a great culture.

 

This alone is a proof to me, that sin guilt and all such nonsense was introduced by Abhrams and forcefully taken all over the world. From that point onwards men lost their greatness and culture and sank deep. The Renassiance is another proof that when some determined people rose in rebellion against the stupidity of church it created so much of art and music in the world again.

[gurukul 0]

namaste guest

 

Your question:Why do tribals not feeling guilty or sin?

Ans :How do you know that all the tribals dont feel guilty? when you look at some tribal customs with some having animistic practices you will find there is the sense of guilt when they break their own law.for example some tribals who practice eating humans dont eat their own wives and children or even tribes men.

 

secondly ,We dont know all that is moral and immoral ,good or evil,sin and righteousness we need a divine revelation to understand it.But for knowing the basic understanding that we are sinners we know it for sure through the guilt that arises when we break even our own moral laws.

 

your second question :if our ancestors were so much depressed and felt guilty , surely we could not have such great art, music, architecture, philoshopies and in short a great culture.?

Ans :well I did not say anywere that our ancestors were depressed because of sin and guilt.what I said is that sin is real and so is guilt and we all (including our ancestors) felt it at some point or the other.

I never said that beacuse of sin there could not be great art ,music ,philosophy,architecture great culture etc.I request you to please read my post carefully and not make faulty premise and conclusions.

 

3.while I am aware of the stupidity of some christians and their church ,I am also impressed by the work of many christians and the churches who rose against evil like sati,opression of the poor and the weak,slavery etc and empowerment and development through education (schools ,hostels and universities),communication ,setting up the first printing press in India (william carey),scientific discoveries by some great and fine christian scientist (issac newton,johann kepler,robert boyle,lord kelvin,louis pasteur,michel faraday,john ray etc.),community care through hospitals and mercy ministries.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Many discoveries were made by the islamic culture before and during the rennaisance. Their contribution lasts till nowadays.

[Guest guest]

Gurukul:

 

what I said is that sin is real and so is guilt and we all (including our ancestors) felt it at some point or the other.

 

 

 

Why are you presuming that 'we all (including our ancestors)' felt sin? How do you know? This is blanket blasphemy against Vaishnavas' who have never sinned since birth but have rather dedicated their entire life to Bhagavan and bhakti. Have your read any Vaisnava hagiographies?

 

Gurukul:

 

3.while I am aware of the stupidity of some christians and their church ,I am also impressed by the work of many christians and the churches who rose against evil like sati,opression of the poor and the weak,slavery etc and empowerment and development through education (schools ,hostels and universities),communication ,setting up the first printing press in India (william carey),scientific discoveries by some great and fine christian scientist (issac newton,johann kepler,robert boyle,lord kelvin,louis pasteur,michel faraday,john ray etc.),community care through hospitals and mercy ministries.

 

 

I agree too. But material prosperity does not equal spiritual prosperity. And how much of this Chrisitan charity is specifically done in order to convert Hindus? I don't the answer to that question that is why I am asking you.

[Guest guest]

I think I ran into you before in another thread.

 

You are only looking at some aspects of the

colonial and the post-colonial period. And the

worst period of our history. Our civlization

goes back to minus 4,000.

 

You seem to be unaware of the worldwide impact

of Vedic civilization. Please read the book,

Proof of Vedic Culture's Global Existence by

Stephen Knapp. The author was born and raised

a Christian. And from what I have read, he has

converted to Hinduism.

 

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/proof_of_vedic_culture's_global_existence.htm

 

You are devoid of self-worth and self-pride because

you lack knowledge about your own heritage. Instead

you repeatedly cite conditions that existed after

the devastation caused by centuries of Muslim rule

and the colonial rule that followed right after that.

 

Do you know anything at all about the 5,000 years

before that?

The industrial revolution in the West took off

only after, not before, the colonialists took

control of the economy, the natural resources

and administration of the country sapping it

of its energy and vitality.

 

All you seem to know is what happened during the

bleakest period of our history. And your views

reflect your continued miserable existence.

[Guest guest]

According to one source, colonial rule

enriched western nations by at least

$10 trillion and when it ended the country

was utterly impoverished.

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

"How do you know that all the tribals dont feel guilty"

 

How do you know we "all" feel guilty and sin. (By reading Bible you are making presumptions)

 

How do I know that all the tribals dont feel guilty (by seeing their protrayal in some films and by studying about their habits)

 

For both of us it is not possible to reach "all" and really find out what is happening, i know that limitation and hence not making presptempous statements, however you had been so brainwashed that you don't know the limitations and hence making those statements.

 

"I never said that beacuse of sin there could not be great art ,music ,philosophy,architecture great culture etc"

 

if anybody feels sin or guilty they would not be singing or dancing and creating music, they would be only going doing something to make God somehow happy and get rid of their sin. Sin and joy can't co exist.

 

Your last part is sheer propaganda.

 

There is no known christian scientists, it is a well known fact that Newton was a member of an organization which was hell bent against christianity, and it is very famous story of Gallileo and Copernicus of what church did to them

 

Regarding Schools, hospitals etc., these are the number one source of income today (second is donatations). Also as i stated in an earlier thread, you can reduce only karma or suffering at a time, you can't reduce both simulatenously. So all this reducing suffering etc., are sheer stupidity that you push everything to a later birth.

 

 

[gurukul 0]

If you read my post carefully,I did not say anything against the vedic civilisation.I was merely responding to guest's query.

[gurukul 0]

You maybe right about your information about thier becoming rich and their oppression ,but dont get confused between the colonial rule and christianity.The colonials were not true followers of christ.If you study carefully the colonial britishers did not allow christian missionaries in india due to fear of enlightenments.William carey who landed in india as a missionary was denied permission but he landed in kolkota and established the first printing press,translated literatures in 40 diffrent languages ,fought against the britishers to stop the practise of sati,taught bengali in the university ,helped the poor and needy etc.his childrens ,wife all died in India serving the community.such and many other examples against the colonial rule abound in indian history but oblivion to the major masses.

[gurukul 0]

source:films and books?? Are films meant to show that they dont feel guilty or do not sin?.what book tells you they dont feel guilty?

who told you that if a person feels guilty they wont sing and dance.one can supress the feeling of guilt and move on with life.if you read the film world stars you will find them often going to religious pilgrimages for washing away the sins ,donating money to religious organisations for good karma etc.but that does not stop them to act in films ,dancing and art.

 

As a christian newton disagreed with some principles of the church but that did not ceased him to be a christian.he continued in his faith.as per other scientists listed by me there are resources which can point of their beleif in christ.

 

I did not understand the last paragraph regarding suffering and karma.

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

it is becoming clear now that you just engage in blind propaganda without thinking or analyasing.

 

"one can supress the feeling of guilt and move on with life"

 

Remember we are talking about tribals. You read any history books on tribals, even your favoured western "scholars" who had lived near tribals and noted down their life style.

 

See any documentary films on tribals particularly of Andamans.

 

You can understand that sin is NOT a natural concept (if you can't do that just observer some animals, have you seen any animals feeling guilty?)

 

Sin is an religious concept, which was introduced as a very minor one in Hinduism , just to motivate people to evolve in spiritual scale. But which was blown out of proportion by Abhrams to frigthen and degrade.

 

Newton didn't oppose some principles of church, he opposed church itself.

 

Regarding missionary work, it is the Karma of westerners to do missionary work in India (because they made it poor in the first place). They can't escape their Karma. But even for doing their Karma they expecte a return (harvesting of souls)

[gurukul 0]

Well there is a diffrence between animals and humans.hence the question of guilt does not arise in animals.we are talking about humans who worship God and think of morality.

 

you have not answered me if sin is a minor issue or even as you said in earlier posting that there is no sin in hinduism, then what is the context of law of karma and the dharma sutras? what happens of a person who breaks these laws? what is he called as- a holy man? or a sinner (papi)? on what basis the rebirths occurs? if sin is minor issue why is ther rituals towards washing of sins? if sin issue does not exisit then on what basis the law of karma operates? think about it.about tribals I have already told you and you can study it yourself that tribals do have the concept of sin within their own system.when their own law is broken they fear the supernaturals and hence performs sacrifices from ojhas and tantriks for escape.the guilt conscience do varies from tribe to tribe.

 

please note sin is not about east or west or mideast its about reality.its right there within us.jealousy ,anger ,pride,lust,,abuse,foul language,lies etc.they do come out of human beings.but there is an escape route from the punishment of this paap chakra that God declares for all humans in the bible which I am attracted to as a hindu-

 

The wages of sin is death (eternal seperation in hell) but the gift of God is eternal life in chirst jesus (Rom 3:23)

[Guest guest]

Why are you ashamed to call yourself a

Christian?

 

You say you are a Hindu, but seem

unable to quote any teachings from

the vast body of Indic literature.

 

[Guest guest]

Your religious confusion and disorientation

can be easily explained. You know nothing

about your national literature and your

heritage.

[gurukul 0]

please note that the gospel of Jesus christ is seen as coming from God and not from a specific community called christians into a civilisation.christianity as an established religion never exisited before till later centuries.it is purely a faith and an escape route for all mankind (as per the bible)from the punishment of sin.though set of people who follow christ has made it as a religion.Jesus himself never came to establish any religion.he said to the Roman governer pontius pilate before the execution :

"My kingdom," replied Jesus, "does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my subjects would have resolutely fought to save me from being delivered up to the Jews. But, as a matter of fact, my kingdom has not this origin (John 18:36)

Jesus even refused to become a political king when the many jews and others came to make him their king.

 

WHO I AM?

so when the gospel entered judaism there were jews who are christ bhaktas for their redemption,entered romans they are suppose to be Romans as christ bhaktas to get saved ,to hindustan then its our previlage and appointment from God to become a christ bhaktas for the sole purpose of experienceing love and finding a savior to get redeemed from the punishment of sin and also entering into a bliss of eternal life called salavtion or mukti.The gospel is not a force or a religion or a sect but a saving lifeline.I am born as a hindu ,I followed my gods for long and looked for assurance and a sinless ,perfect,holy and divine person to worship which I found in christ jesus alone.I think maybe that our vedic ancestors looked to this great sacrifice when they were talking about the yagnahas like prajapati in Rigvedas.what i have discovered in my bhakti of christ yeshu is the transformation within ,enlightment and assurance of life that is eternal with him in that kingdom called the kingdom of God.the invitation is for all.The choice is ours to accept or reject that great invitation from God.

 

[Guest guest]

The idea of all of mankind are sinners came from Christ's disciples it seems. They were all sinners and their attempts at moral perfection were impossible because they have no knowledge of bhakti-yoga, jnana-yoga, or even karma-yoga. However they saw their leader Jesus (God to them) as morally perfect; this is because Jesus was probably a jivan-mukta. So they speculate that all of mankind are sinners and the only way to become free of sin is to surrender to Jesus Christ.

 

The only way to become free of sin is BHAKTI-YOGA. There is no other way.

[Guest guest]

For more on Bhakti Yoga, go here:

 

http://www.sanatansociety.org/yoga_and_meditation/bhakti_yoga.htm

[gurukul 0]

namaste 1bhakta

 

Thanks for your enlightening words.I am sure that bhakti marg is one of the most important thing when relating with God.But before bhakti we must ask the most important question to self -bhakti to what? hence the vyakti (person) becomes the object of our bhakti were our spiritual energy is directed.my bhakti is of no value if it cannot liberate me and to whom I cannot personally relate.also my object of worship must be pure,sinless,powerful,holy,personal and real.I cannot honestly commit to something which is opposite of what is mentioned above.It becomes more distressful if my vyakti or object is lifeless,unreal, mythical and above all not moral.

 

secondly if the vyakti or the object of bhakti is holy ,sinless and pure then there is also the demand from the object to do bhakti in truth.yeshu christ said "The true bhaktas will do the bhakti in atma (spirit) and satya (truth)" (John 4:24).A true bhakti becomes meaningful and blessed when the bhakta is cleansed from sin and also keeps himself from sinful actions.

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

i have my belief and you yours.

 

i am willing to scrutnize critically my belief, since it is my nature and also my religion says so (in Gita Arjun directly asks krsna how he can believe Krsna taught Yoga to Sun?) no where it is said we have to accept anything even if God himself tells.

 

Anyhow you are hell bent in beliving you are a sinner, i can't explain to you concepts of maya.

 

further arguments would be a waste of time for both of us.

 

If you are really interested in solving your sins and reaching eternal salvation, then my wishes are with you. However if you are just interested in conversions, then sorry no wishes for you

[Guest guest]

Your kristhu says one thing at some times

and a completely different thing at

other times.

 

He says, love your enemies. Then turns

right around and says, bring them here

and kill them before me.

 

Here are some more examples.

 

Blessed are the peacemakers. Then he

thunders: I came not to send peace. I

came to send fire on the earth.

 

Don't curse, don't speak ill of anyone,

he says. Then yells at others calling them

serpents, hypocrites and vipers, and that

they shall be thrust down to hell. He

curses at a fig tree for not bearing fruit

although it was not the season of figs.

 

He says, honour thy father and thy mother.

Then shows his real face by saying: A

man's foes shall they be of his own

household. I came to set a man at

at variance against his father, and the

daughter against her mother, and the

daughter in law against her mother in law.

 

And the brother shall deliver up the

brother to death, and the father the

child: and the children shall rise up

against their parents, and cause them

to be put to death.

 

He declares: If any man believes me not, I judge

him not. I came not to judge the world. Then

does the opposite and goes on to threaten

you: He that is not with me is against me;

and he that gathereth not with me scattereth

abroad.

 

He is untrustworthy. Stay away from his unholy

doctrine.

[gurukul 0]

Analyse the context for right understanding.