there is no God

[Guest guest]

Dear Ganesh prasad this is the new thread ,odes any one has any proof apart from the scriptures that there is god .You hve mentioned some book vreses & chapters in Gandhi thread. pl. let me know which book you are referring to . My contention is that God,Veda, reincarnation etc. are muths.

[Guest guest]

Religion is unrefined search for truth.

Science is refined search for truth.

 

 

Religion was product of man's curiosity to understand the origin of earth, life, conciense etc..

 

Initially when man was hunting animals for food, he was at the complete mercy of large animals like elephant, natural disasters like fire, rain, lightning, etc.. so he starting praying animals and natural forces to not harm him.

This is the origin of religions like hinduism.

 

As man became more civilized and his thought process became more refined, he began to see god beyond mere natural forces and wild animals. He tried to study the process of like, death, creation, destruction more systematically and came up with complex philosophies and scriptures.

 

With passage of time, man began to understand that god may not resemble human beings at all, as god also created other creatures and non-living things. So he started to believe that god may not have any form, shape and other sensory perceptions associated with human beings. This was the origin of abrahamic religions.

 

Hinduism was also not static, hindus also incorporated such thought into their existing beliefs. That is why hinduism that is followed now is very complex and contradictory. On one hand people worship idols, on the other hand people follow advaita and formless brahman.

 

whereas, religions that are more modern are more clear and refined in their definition of god.

 

Ultimately, as man became super intelligent and started to control and dominate the entire world, his search for truth became more refined and became what is now known as science.

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Thank you Ajit12 ji

 

Re

(You hve mentioned some book vreses & chapters in Gandhi thread. pl. let me know which book you are referring to)

 

Sorry I should have made that clear.

The verses are from Bhagvat Gita.

 

RE

( My contention is that God,Veda, reincarnation etc. are muths.

does any one has any proof apart from the scriptures that there is god .)

 

Yes that is one way of looking at life; after all why should we accept what others say or what is written in the books.that is their experience and revelation.

But we do need guidance in every step of our existence so in that sense we are dependent, on others or an authority. For instance if I want to know who my father is then I have to ask my mother.

 

You ask has anyone seen god? Now I can not answer for others but me personally no, not in the sense you ask any way, but I feel the presence, jut like you perceive life as consciousness but do you actually see that life force?

What is the difference between a dead body and living being every thing is there so what was that life force, have you seen it?

 

Just think a simple matter as a house, we know it required an architect builders and some authority for us to able to build it. Is it very intelligent to think that this complex universe came about by it self?

If the sun was any closer we would all burn or the moon any closer we all drown.

What use is this existence, it is filled full of pain and struggle and for what, if you think at the end which is not more then 100 years if you are lucky, only to leave it all behind.

 

I can perceive so can you that this mortal body is changing every second, in fact every seven years we are told that all cells in the body changes but we can see or feel that the person in that body remains the same isn’t it? The death is nothing but change of the body, one more suitable for our need and we only get what we deserve.

So our quest should be who am I, where do I come from and where am I heading?

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Ajit 12

 

So you don't believe in God? So what! That's your opinion, as long as it makes you happy. But we couldn't care less what you think. You can't prove or disprove the existence of God.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada on God

 

Everyone is fallen. They are simply amending and concocting religion. That is not good. Why should they amend religion to deny relationship with God? God is the greatest, and we are finite, limited. We are not greatest. And our business is to serve Him. The ultimate goal is how to love God. That is our philosophy. The highest goal of life is measured by the extent that one has developed his love for God [sB 1.2.6]. And Bhagavata says, "That is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him." That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaisnava dharma in a crude form like Christianity. So we can amalgamate them all if they are sane men. I suggested that there are many churches vacant. If they give us these churches we shall install Deity -- Gaurasundara, Nitai-Gaura and Panca-tattva -- and along with them we shall worship Lord Jesus Christ also. Similarly, we can worship Muhammad. There is no harm. But they are against this Deity worship. Deity is also expression, form is also expression, but they do not understand it.

 

Separation is expressed when there is separation between man to man or man to woman, person. Otherwise what is the meaning of separation? This means God must be person. They do not believe in the Personality of Godhead.

 

Therefore in Islam religion the form is rejected because it will come to that. As soon as they think of form, they think of this material form, beautiful face of woman. That is degradation. Therefore we are strict not to conceive material form. That is Vedic conception. Apani-padah javano grahita: "He has no legs and no hands." This is... means denying the form. And next the Vedas say, javano grahita: "He can accept whatever you offer to Him." That means God has no material form, but He has form; otherwise how He can accept? How He can understand my love? So therefore in the original Islamism the form is not accepted. So that is Vedic description, form and formless. Formless means no material form, and form means spiritual form, simultaneous. Just like I am, you are. I am within the body, but I am not this body. This form not I am. But wherefrom the form of the body came into existence?

 

Because I have got form. The sweater has got hand because I have got hand. The sweater is the covering. If I haven't got form, then how the sweater has got hand, the pant has got leg? So the pant practically is not the leg. The real leg is within the pant. Similarly, this is not my form; this is like pant, leg of the pant or hand of the coat. Real form is within. That is not material form. If the real form I could see, you could see, then there was no controversy, the spirit. But they cannot see. Therefore they say "formless." If it is formless, then how the outer form comes out? How it can be? The tailor makes the coat because the man has got form. As the coat has got hands, so it is concluded that the man for whom the coat is made, he has got form. How you can say without form? The difficulty is that we can see the form of the coat, but we cannot see the form of the man. That is my defect with the eyes, not that the God is formless. God is not formless.

 

God has got form. That is the conclusion. But we cannot see with our present eyes. That is described, "we cannot see God with our blunt senses" [brs. 1.2.234]. Just like I see you. What I see you? Your body. You see me -- my body. And when the body is there and the soul is not there, then it is lump of matter. You kick it out and nobody will protest. If a dead body you smash with your legs and boots, nobody will say that "Why you are doing this?" But so long the soul is there, if somebody is smashed like that, immediately there will be protest from all side, "Why you are doing this?" So the people have no knowledge about the real form. Therefore they say formless.

 

There is spiritual form. It can become bigger, smaller, like that. That is another thing, the qualitative change. There are five elements, so the sun is made of fire, that's all. As your body is made of earth, that sun globe or the sun-god, the body is made of fire, that's all. There are other planets also; the body is made of air because you do not find more than these five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky-gross; and subtle -- mind, intelligence and ego. So subtle, the same, but gross -- somewhere the fire is prominent; somewhere water is prominent, air is prominent; somewhere earth is prominent. So here in this world, in this planet, the earth is prominent.

 

The whole world, whole universe, is made of these five elements. Formerly Iran was part of India, and you belonged to the same culture. So far as I understand, Iran word origin is Aryan. So Aryan culture was practically all over the world. Aryan culture is based on God consciousness. So amongst the Aryans there is some conception of religion, either Christian religion or Mohammedan religion, Buddhist religion, Vedic religion, based on conception of God. So according to time, country, the ways of understanding may be little different, but the aim is God consciousness. That is Aryan civilization. So God is one; God cannot be two. So the features of God or angle of vision of God may be different. So they have been summarized in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. One feature of God is impersonal. Just like the sunshine. Sunshine is spreading all over the universe. It is impersonal. But the quality of the sunshine is heat and light. The heat and light means energy. So as in the material calculation, the heat and light is the cause of all creation. Just like at the present moment there is insufficient heat; therefore the trees have no leaves. And as soon as there will be little more heat they will all go green. So you can take it that the creation of the foliage is due to the heat. Similarly light. So heat and light is the cause of all this material creation. And heat and light is coming from the sunshine, and ultimately the sun. Therefore heat becomes the origin of creation even in this material world. Similarly, there is another light. That is the original light. This is reflection. That is called brahmajyoti, spiritual light. So in this way one conception of God is like that. Another conception of God is that God is situated everywhere. Because God is situated within this universe, within the atom, that is why things are existing. Just like the atma, or spirit soul, is situated in you, in me, in everyone. This is called Paramatma feature. And at the ultimate end there is the person, God as person, the Supreme Person, the Supreme Being, a person like you and me -- we are person -- but He is almighty, all-powerful. This is the conception of Absolute Truth: God, Supersoul, and Impersonal [sB 1.2.11]. He is realized as Brahman (impersonal), Paramatma (Supersoul), and Bhagavan (Personality). Bhagavan is person; Paramatma means localized; and Brahman means all-pervading. All together-God. This is the idea.

 

God is truth; what is forgetfulness of God, that is illusion. God is truth. Just like the sun is present all the time, twenty-four hours. But we say now there is no sun, at night. But that's not the fact. The fact is the sun is there; I cannot see it. That is illusion. Not that God is not there. God is there. Exactly the same example, the sun is there at night, but I cannot see under certain condition. Therefore it is illusion. Our senses are imperfect; therefore sometimes we cannot understand or see God. If our senses are purified, then we can see God every moment.

 

The clear conception of God is that originally He is a person. Just like the same example, the sun. We can see every day the sun. The sun is there always, but at night we cannot see. At night we cannot see. That does not mean the sun is not there.

 

The senses are imperfect. Just like we are very proud of our eyes to see, but you cannot see what is beyond the wall. Therefore it is conditioned. You cannot see without light. How you can be sure that your eyes are perfectly seeing? That is not possible, because the eyes can see only under certain conditions. So if it is conditioned, then it is not perfect. But the conditioned sight can be purified. Just like one is suffering from cataract. By surgical operation the cataract can be removed and he can see. Similarly, our senses are imperfect. If we purify the senses, then it will be possible to see God twenty-four hours. That purification process is this Krsna consciousness movement.

 

Krsna consciousness means God consciousness. The cats and dogs cannot be trained up. But a human being can be trained up. Especially the Aryans, they can be trained up. They are advanced. By birth they are advanced. They have got intelligence. But for Krsna consciousness everyone can be purified, even the non-Aryans. It is without any material check. It is not a disqualification that one is not an Aryan, therefore he cannot understand God. No. He can also be trained up. Because it is spiritual, and we are all spiritual identities, it is not difficult. Even one who is not spiritual at the present moment, by training can also become spiritual.

 

It is not overly intellectual. One has to understand first of all that he is not this body. That anyone can understand, that "I am changing my body, but I am there. Therefore I am not this body." Just like a child's coat, when he is young man, that coat does not fit him. So that young man means he has got another body. But the young man knows, he remembers, that he was a child. He was on the lap of his parents or his relatives. So that body is no longer existing. I have got a different body, but the same guy who had the childhood body is existing. The body has changed. That's a fact. But I am the same.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ganeshji,

it is good dicussing things with you because of your politeness. To all , I would like to emphasize here that I am not trying to prove or dissprove existance of god . I have studied the scriptures, visited holy places & holy men . None of them has been able to discuss even the scriptures leave alone god. The attitude is extremely

intolerant.

I find no evidence of existance of God in this world ,all holy books are vague.Science has done so much for the human race.All gods like Tirupati, Saibaba, Shreenathji could not control epidemic like cholera in ther own pilgrimplace like tirupati or Abu. Science had to invent injections and vaccinations to stop these epidemics at holy places leave alone the world.

Let me have your views in an open and tolerant manner.

[barney 0]

Dear Ajit 12,

 

I'm glad you ask these question. I too was an atheist who had ask the same question some 35 years ago. My mother could not answer and so were people who had knowledge in the vedas. All they could say was GOD is unseen and HE dwells in all living entity. I was not happy with the answers given and refuse to accept the Hindu faith.

 

Once a close friend approach me ask me if I'm intersted in joining him in a bajan session organoised by a certain group. My reply to him was this "If GOD is intersted in me let him come to me, why should I go to him". I do not believe he exist. My just laughed at me and went on his own ro the bajan.

 

Although a Muslim Girl [Malay]]was in love with me and so was I but than I had no interest in her religion and so she left me after waiting for a year for my decission.. Than some time later I fell in love with a Christian [Eurasian] girl and my mother was worried again that I might convert to Christianity. I told my girl no matter what please do not ask me to change my religion. I'm not a practicing Hindu but I respect my parents and I would like to die a Hindu. She agreed and we were married according to Hindu tradition.

 

After three years of marriage on e day I had a strange dearm. In that dream someone looking dark and tall with strange looking hair style appeared and ask me to come to his gathering. He only tapped my shoulder and bid good by. The very next day my friend I mentioned was at my front door and told me to accompany him out. I did not ask him where he was going as it was normal for us to gather at a caffe for a cupa. But this time he drove me straight to a building hall whee a few hundred people were sitted and beautiful kirtans we being sung. at the far end of the hall I noticed frame of the same person who appeared in my dreams and on enquiring my friend I was told he is Sri Satia Sai Baba the reincarnation of Shridi Baba. The strange thing was there were other frames beside his and I was seeing tenples of all GODs in one house. Buddhism, Sikism, Christianity, Islam and Zorrastraism. The bajans captivated my heart and from a non believer I became a believer. Than I remembered what I said to my friend some some months ago before " If GOD is interested in me let him come to me". And the dream I had made me realize there is a Supreme Being and so began my quest to read about Hindusim and its Saints, yogis and avathars.

 

You see my friend, we breath in oxigin but we cannot see it. Aks to discribe we can't but it is there and we can feel it breezing over our skin. It is formless yet it keeps us alive. Without it we would lifeless. God too is such we cannot see yet HE is with us and inside us. The ATMAN that is glowing inside every living being is HIM. IF HE decides to leave than we become stiff cold lifless body which would decompose in less than 24 hours which would emit a stench that not even your loving wife , children or parents who gave birth to you would like to stand near your body..

 

Believe me when I say HE exist. When Swami Vivekananday asked Swami Ramakrishna before becoming his desiple that if he had seen GOD and the reply Swami Ramakrishna gave was he had seen. When ask to elobrate Swami Ramakrishna said he sees GOD in each and every one he meets. From than on Swami Vivekananda became his desiple.

 

I believe Swami Ramakrishna because when he says I see GOD in each and every on ehe meets I understand what he meant. The ATMAN which is hidden is GOD and so we are alive and kicking and some time even deny the existance of GOD. Yet HE does not punish us for our ignorance. The reason is HE knows that it is our own freewill and whatever we do is what we gain hereafter. What we did in our past life is what we are enjoying here now. When our karma is exhausted we will leave in silent to meet our next course of life who knows what.

 

Anyway, you are right according to your toughts but please probe further as there are more to life than what we see here. What we learn in our life time is only as small as a mustard seed and what we need to learn is as vast as the ocean.

 

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Pranam ajit12 ji

RE

(I am not trying to prove or dissprove existance of god . I have studied the scriptures, visited holy places & holy men . None of them has been able to discuss even the scriptures leave alone god. The attitude is extremely intolerant.)

 

It is good that you have read scriptures and visited holy places, it proves you are interested to search the truth. Some times visiting holy places could be very bitter experience, all this pandas it seems are only interested in your money.

But then who is not running after money, it causes father son to fallout, because of it brother and brother kills each other, country go to war because of it.

If we learn to rise above it our experience could be of most satisfying, learn and meet different people, how and what drives different people in search of that elusive force.

Let me relate my recent experience on pilgrimage

One, on a very auspicious day of Radhastmi visiting her temple in barsana, I was pickpocket and lost a lot of money.

Now that made me very sad, I could easily blame the lord for not looking after me after all I went there for their blessing,

I thought I was very clever, I could never let this happen to me, yet it happened and who is a fault? partly me for carrying that amount of money and not looking after it, but mainly that pickpocket whose job it is to rob, how can I blame anyone else. It is my experience and hopefully I will learn from it.

 

Second was in Himalayas while tracking I left my money bag full of money on the rock while resting for a while. Later as I started walking having covered a fair distance, I heard a very faint whistle so I turned around and saw this porter waving my bag. Now I could have lost not only money but my passport also.

 

The first incidence never shook my faith in the lord the second only cemented my faith that every thing happens for the best.

 

 

Re

(I find no evidence of existance of God in this world ,all holy books are vague.)

 

It depends which way we look at it, since we never would accept, say for this computer to happen here by chance, as if no one made it, I am sure you will agree it was made in a factory and there was an intelligence behind it. And all this manual that comes with it are so vague or perhaps I can not understand the language, So I have to go to some one who knows how all this work, even then I can not understand this but that is my problem.

 

Re

(for the human race.All gods like Tirupati, Saibaba, Shreenathji could not control epidemic like cholera in ther own pilgrimplace like tirupati or Abu. Science had to invent injections and vaccinations to stop these epidemics at holy places leave alone the world.)

 

One must understand what god is, under whose control all this revolves in its orbit the sun and the moon rises on its time. In fact nothing can move without his sanction.

Now does he interfere every second? What kind of creation would that be where I have no freedom to choose? I would be like a computer no will of my own.

As to controlling those disease, yes the science has come a long way in eradicating a lot of them, but lot more has sprung up the one more deadly then before. From time we are born this body is decaying the death is inevitable for those who are born, no science can change that on the other hand the lord says come to me I will give you that which is permanent from where there is no return.

 

Re

(Let me have your views in an open and tolerant manner. )

 

Yes the life is full of pain, it seems all we do is tolerate the three fold pain, adhidevik, adhiytamik and adhibhovtik, so it is natural to yearn for some peace.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Abrahmic religions are the ones that say God created man in His own image. Read the Bible.

 

Hindu religion incorporates MANY strange conceptions of God, and very few of them are actually HUMAN.

 

Hinduism developed the science of yoga. The people who wrote the Vedas were rishis who did a primitive form of yoga called tapas and shared their experiences, praising whatever they saw as God, and realizing that they all saw God, yet that God was different in form for each of them, and further concluding God is One.

 

The worship of a formless Brahman isn't contradictory to worshipping idols, except to an unenlightened mind such as yours, that cannot see the truth, God is everywhere, and in everything. Many yogis, who know only the Vedas and have performed yoga have come to the conclusion God is One. They don't need to be influenced by anyone or anything, they just need God-contact to know this.

 

Your seeming reverence for Abrahamic religions is misplaced, as you haven't seen the reality of these religions, all of which seek to convert others into their own faith, proclaiming one person a saint, the other a sinner, one God evil, and another God "good", blind to the idea that God is everywhere and in everything.

 

those religions that you regard as "modern" and more "clear and refined in their definition of God" are unable to truly see what God is. They follow the teachings of only one person or book, Mohammed in Islam, Christ in Christianity,the Torah in Judaism.

 

Both religion and science have basis in philosophical origins. They exist in the search for Truth. Science is limited in some ways, while religion is limited in others. You cannot say that science is more "refined" unless you are truly ignorant of what religion is. Science in and of itself is technically a religion. Religion, in the proper sense is the application of a philosophy, whatever that philosophy may be. It is Dharma. Science is Dharma too, as it is the application of a philosophical viewpoint, which is that anything that exists can be measured or verified, and whatever that can't, cannot possibly exist. At least that is my view of the philosophical basis of science. Make no mistake, science is founed upon a philosophical basis, just like any religion must. All religions and all forms of science follow their own path towards enlightenment, oblivious of other paths. Only the enlightened and wise see that there are multiple paths, and multiple ways to realize the Truth. To regard science as somehow more refined than religion is to be ignorant of the fact that much of scientific achievements come from intuition/spirituality a concept that science itself disavows yet religion holds sacred. This is the paradox of life.

[Guest guest]

When I said Abrahamic religions had more refined philosophies, it was at the time when the philosophies were actually formed. At that time they must have been more refined that hinduism.

 

But hinduism was not static, we also incorporated such philosophies into our existing beliefs and refined ourself.

 

In fact, hinduism has always been open to acceptance of other philosophies, so it has constantly evolved & adapted and in its current form now, is much much better than any other religions.

 

Whereas, Abrahamic religions, though were more refined when they were formed, had refused to adapt themselves to changing times and are hence kind of outdated and unsuitable for modern times.

 

[grace 0]

mr.ajit: Neither I got the answers from religious books, hooded swamis or Gurus , catholic priests, Imams etc...

 

I did find the answer in the a novel "Brothers Karamazov" especially in the chapter "Grand Inquisitor" written by Russian author Fyodor Dostoevesky. Now I know why bad things happen to Good people and why Tsunami killed so many people..If you are interested please let me know. Love you KT

[Guest guest]

Dear Ajith ji and Grace,

 

If by grace of God you happen to enquire "Who sees with eyes?", "Who hears with ears?", "Who understands with mind?", you will be shocked. You may also enquire "Who is breathing?" and just investigate and try to locate the ONE who is breathing in you.

 

One day, may be tommorrow, or may be ages later, you will say "God alone is". Understanding comes from HIm, so how can understanding understand Him? Thoughts come out of that pure intelligence so how can thoughts unravel him? A report written by me will not know me but I will know the report.

 

 

Best Wishes

[Guest guest]

"When I said Abrahamic religions had more refined philosophies, it was at the time when the philosophies were actually formed. At that time they must have been more refined that hinduism.

 

But hinduism was not static, we also incorporated such philosophies into our existing beliefs and refined ourself.

 

In fact, hinduism has always been open to acceptance of other philosophies, so it has constantly evolved & adapted and in its current form now, is much much better than any other religions.

 

Whereas, Abrahamic religions, though were more refined when they were formed, had refused to adapt themselves to changing times and are hence kind of outdated and unsuitable for modern times. "

 

Read the Bible, the quran, the Torah. They do not allow for flexibility. They put chains upon their followers to follow simply scripture and not to seek god in any other way other than bhakti. They disavow God and creation are one.

 

Hinduism has absorbed many things, but mostly these are mythological stories that one can clearly trace to Abrahamic religions. Even the Vedas can be interpreted to say God has many forms and is formless ultimately. What's the difference between what the Vedas and the other scriptures then?

 

Hinduism developed the science of yoga, a way to attain God directly, how are other religions then more refined when they do not develop anything like this?

[Guest guest]

All glories to the All-Attractive Lord!

 

"Read the Bible, the quran, the Torah. They do not allow for flexibility. They put chains upon their followers to follow simply scripture and not to seek god in any other way other than bhakti. They disavow God and creation are one."

 

(1) Where does it say that in the Bible?

 

(2) The Quran says 'There is no compulsion in religion'.

 

(3) That is because in one sense God is not one with His creation and in another sense He is.

 

"Hinduism has absorbed many things, but mostly these are mythological stories that one can clearly trace to Abrahamic religions. Even the Vedas can be interpreted to say God has many forms and is formless ultimately. What's the difference between what the Vedas and the other scriptures then?"

 

(1) There are no myths in the Vedas or the Puranas. where is the evidence that Vedic history comes from the Abrahamic traditions?

 

(2) The Vedas have more info about God e.g. name, form, pastimes, activities, likes, dislikes etc.

 

"Hinduism developed the science of yoga, a way to attain God directly, how are other religions then more refined when they do not develop anything like this?"

 

Other religions all have bhakti-yoga clearly - therefore they all have the highest message also - it is just that the followers sometimes misunderstand.

 

Your aspiring servant,

******