thought for the brain

[Guest guest]

it is said that one can have life without consiousness but one cannot have consiousness without life.

 

i was contemplating on this yesterday and came to agreement. it makes much sense. i tried and tried and couldnt come up with any instances that i can think of where consiousness exists and life does not.

 

however, i wish to post this question to the followers of this forum becuase i know that certain hindu works says that consiousness is an eternal factor. if so, then does this mean that it CAN exist without life? can anyone think of any examples where consiousness exists without life?

[Sephiroth 0]

First ... define what you mean by Life.

 

What is Life?

What is Characteristics of Life?

 

Give example of something you think has Life and something whish you do not think has Life.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

The approximate definitions, as per Hinduism, (it can only be approximate since there is difference in Sanskrit and enligsh terms).

 

Consicuoness is Brahma (Prajagyna Brahma) and is present every where and all the time

 

Life-energy called Atman, is present only in living things, (definition of living-things itself is an object which has Life-energy)

 

The Life-energy is embodied Consciouness, i.e., Consciousness embedded in Ego, intellect, mind and senses (and gross body also, but some of the life-forms may not have gross body)

 

Once the Life-energy escapes from all its sourrounding layers, it merges with the Consicuoness and this is called Liberation, or Jiva-Brahama Iyakam (Merger of Jiva and Brahama)

[Guest guest]

hello Subham

 

Subham i have read your texts in all categories. you seem to be very learned and clear in your telling. i have a question to you subham please clarify my question.may be very silly still. i want to know.

 

- all do search God and thrive for answers till they die. knowledge people and ignorant both. but can you pls tell me where he is and how can i see him always. Thanks

 

 

 

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

thank you for the praises, however it is second hand knowledge, read from books.

 

But don't use all - "all do search God and thrive for answers" rather use "I" here. Usuage of correct words is a very important first step in progressing, Vedas tell that any words you use three times successively incurs you sin. So use the appropriate words appropriate number of times.

 

As for you asking where is god, is very interesting and if i answer you it would be very funny, as stated in Upanishads- " A blind man can't lead another blind man"

 

You have to study, research and think by Yourself, i found Gita is the most suitable book for this purpose, but to understand Gita you may have to read and re-read it again and again with full concentration and with reverence.

 

You should also have faith that Gita is the word of the God and strongly believe that by reading it and praying to Him sincerely you will one day be able to see Him, if not in this birth then in subsequent births as He says, "whatever little effort you take in this regard will never be wasted". Also if your past karma is such and you really yearn it from your heart , you may see (realize) Him this birth itself or even today.

 

A story - Padmapadhar a disciple of Adi Shankaracraya was meditating many years to see God, one day a Hunter comes and asks him, what he is doing in the forest, he thinks that Hunter would not understand mediation and God,etc., so he tells "I am searching for a Person with Lion Head in this forest", the Hunter promises to Fetch it within next day. The Hunter forgets all the food, water, everything and searches it and he finds it , ties it down and drags to Padmapadha, however he can't see it and can't believe that Narashimam which shook the entire universe can be tied by a Hunter, for which Narashimam says "This Hunter had achieved the concentration and yearning in one day, what you would have achieved if you had mediated for One Crore year"

 

So moral of the story is, accept you don't know what is He (and what is "I") and strive honestly to figure it out, much better than assuming ( you know everything about God) like the other poster and making statements like (in the other thread):

 

1) God created man with animalistic behaviour

 

2) He set Himself a Goal to elevate him from that behaviour

 

3) He is struggling with that Goal for Billions of year and had not even achieved 0.1% of the Goal.

 

What a Stupid God He must be.

[Guest guest]

At last a beautiful answer from a learned peson. thanks subham.

 

Its really great that you talk of bhawathgeetha. Krishna is telling on the ignorance part of the human. and indicating that human life is to just thrive for God until surrender him self to him.

 

always i am in confusion that the matters around me makes think a lot. even though i am god loved person. but i don't want to disturb him to solve all my matters. if so he know he will surely do it. even for my prayers i ask for sarva loka sukino bavanthu thats it. i know he rests in me always. and prema namah of that force is always nice and sweet.

 

ok now the point is if i go on talk about god to everybody others neglect me and keep me in one place as a different person. neither i am propagating things but still on my own with out my awarness i relate all matters to god . even a slightest thing in this world. as i know its impossible to do anything of our own but just to believe in him to take care what we do. but the point is the path is really confusing when mind starts thinking that others are not cooperating with god's wish. what to do for that. pls don't tell that you don't care of others. as all of them tell the same. but i really feel helpless to go on until all comes perfect. as i have seen perfection of life and i know it cant be 100% any time. and God only is perfect.

 

hope you are getting what i am saying. if you could resolve my problem pls reply. i would be really thankful and take it to my life.

 

is success, to finish 65 years of life. with out hassles. or just keep doing what is given or just to think while doing. or just forget everthing and go with this materialistic way...in all god is there. and i don't know which suits me the best. as i am not clear.

 

thanks

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

Don't contradict yourself (another point from Vedas- Nyaya Sastra- the science of Logic)---

 

"Krishna is telling on the ignorance part of the human. and indicating that human life is to just thrive for God until surrender him self to him"

 

 

" i don't know which suits me the best. as i am not clear"

 

If Krishna is telling You to Surrender then why you are not clear which suits you the best?

 

i think probably your predicament is you read and understand some thing from Gita, and you look to others to confirm that your understanding is correct (in that you are assuming inherently that if 8 out of 10 people say it is correct then you had understood correctly, however, dear friend democratic principles does not apply here), just try to read again and again sincerely and any misunderstandings He will remove by His grace, don't look for approval from people. When you understand it correctly, automatically all your confusion would go away.

 

What choice you have to make? good question but no straight answers except to make any choice you like, "Karmnava Adhikerasi" - You alone have the right to make choices. However when you make a choice you have to go through that and enjoy/suffer all its consequence -

 

Of course the choices available to you depends on how well you completed your past actions (the remanants of the past actions) -- say if you had completed your school with very good marks- you can select any college of your choice, study school again or quit, however if you had failed school then only two options-study again or quit.

 

Same thing if you complete this life with high "marks" then you have choices of Paradise/heaven, royal/wealthy family, sensual families, stupid beasts, etc., but if you complete this life with low "marks" then only choice may be stupid beasts.

 

The Choice of liberation happens only if you get Infinite marks and one of the ways to get infinite marks is Karma Yoga, until you get the choice of liberation, choose the best possible option available to you.

 

i hope you found some thing useful in this, if so please read Gita regularly and chant "Hare Ram Hare Ram Ram Ram Hare Hare Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" whenever possible.

 

[Guest guest]

 

nice Subham, indeed got a lot. i have been chanting maha mantra for past three years and my poisons are getting dissolved that i can realise. but questions always arise. not of faith. but the mind clearing and situation dwelling. but need further filter clarification on the text

 

 

"Same thing if you complete this life with high "marks" then you have choices of Paradise/heaven, royal/wealthy family, sensual families, stupid beasts, etc., but if you complete this life with low "marks" then only choice may be stupid beasts.

"

 

 

can you pls tell me what is the high "marks" and low "marks"? and how anybody can rank to be a good student and bad student. please don't tell God knows but the student should know first to score Right?. i know he knows and judges. but i want to know where i am. and

 

really speaking when i don't have wish to come again to this world then why should i bother about marks..... i want to get dissolved again with him. and its not my intrest to show everybody that i a dissolved but yes for sure i want to make others realise that you can also do it. not with marks but with clear understanding.

 

as i was always a poor student in my studies. /images/graemlins/smile.gif still god has seen that i am taken care in every step.

[Guest guest]

nice Subham, indeed got a lot. i have been chanting maha mantra for past three years and my poisons are getting dissolved that i can realise. but questions always arise. not of faith. but the mind clearing and situation dwelling. but need further filter clarification on the text

 

 

"Same thing if you complete this life with high "marks" then you have choices of Paradise/heaven, royal/wealthy family, sensual families, stupid beasts, etc., but if you complete this life with low "marks" then only choice may be stupid beasts.

"

 

 

can you pls tell me what is the high "marks" and low "marks"? and how anybody can rank to be a good student and bad student. please don't tell God knows but the student should know first to score Right?. i know he knows and judges. but i want to know where i am. and

 

really speaking when i don't have wish to come again to this world then why should i bother about marks..... i want to get dissolved again with him. and its not my intrest to show everybody that i a dissolved but yes for sure i want to make others realise that you can also do it. not with marks but with clear understanding.

 

as i was always a poor student in my studies. still god has seen that i am taken care in every step.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

There is difference between facts and assumptions, for making real progress, need to seperate facts from our assumptions.

 

"as i was always a poor student in my studies. still god has seen that i am taken care in every step"

 

This may be your assumption.

 

You may assume that i am an intelligent person and same way i may be assuming that you are asking questions sincerely and not for mocking, but all the assumptions may be false.

 

Now "Marks" as per Gita's definition is "Guna" - we can assume that each unit of "Sattava" is +1, "Rajas" is 0 and "Tamas" is -1.

 

Every action (includes words and thoughts also) you do may give you some units of Guna and the cummulative sum total of all the Guna's at the time of your death determines the choices available to you.

 

You have two desires:

 

1) Liberation of Your self

 

2) Guidance (or proof) of Liberation to Others

 

You have to first achieve the first step before thinking about second , other wise you will be a Hyprocite (who teaches Liberation to others who himself is not Liberated) and if you achieve the first step you will automatically know about second step.

 

Karma Yoga is one of the ways of achieving liberation, Karma Yoga is some thing like all your actions do not give you any "Mark" and is different from "Good Actions" which give you +ve mark. So Good Actions does not liberate some body, it just gives better choices

 

[Guest guest]

 

Can you please highlight on the three "Guna's" .

 

 

assumptions. rightly said. there shouldn't be there i fully agree. but what is there to built stability to build faith. ... we need to start with assumptions right?

 

if you say that don't assume.then what else i have to do can you kindly guide. as for i can't judge the right or wrong then how can i conclude ... i need to assume first right.

 

can you please highlight on this. Thanks

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

yes i agree that we all have lot of assumptions and we have to start many things (including studying of Gita) with assumptions and i was not blaming you for that, only thing for progressing we should start analyzing our own thoughts, whether it is assumption or is based on some facts (so your statement may be like "i was not good in studies, but i think (or assume) god helped me to sail through"- if you make that the next question to come to your mind may be why god helped you in the studies and so on...), when we start critically analyzing our own words and thoughts we will start making progress (or may go mad, but be prepared for the risk, no risk no gain)

 

As for Gunas, there is one full Chapter in Gita about Gunas it would be too lengthy to discuss here (and i am also not very clear about it yet), so please read it and try to understand.

 

The basic definition of Guna is Man can do action either intelligently (sattivic), emotionally (rajasic) or ignorantly (tamasic) , but god is "Nirguna" -- he does actions not through these three [ and when we understand then How does He act, we also would become Nirguna (which is stated to be the liberation)]

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Very nicely said!

 

"when we start critically analyzing our own words and thoughts we will start making progress (or may go mad, but be prepared for the risk, no risk no gain)"

 

this madness only i am on. but i know the path is long and wild but shall become smooth soon.

 

i have gained one thing that "Truth is painful" as the same if you realise God then you have to go through painful and later you can come out of pain. that was happens when we are injured we get pain...which is truth but after that it become bliss to us. and feel friendly with it. is in't it...

 

thanks for guna i will search the same but as far i knew which is indeed very little ... here it is.

 

THREE GUNAS, SEVEN PLANETS

 

SUN

 

Sattva-guna: brightness, radiance, goodness, integrity,

warmth, virtue, creativity, individuality, purpose,

extroverstion, vitality.

 

Raja-guna: self-centered, fame-seeker, attention-seeker,

dramatization, melodrama, histrionics, egotistical,

prideful, arrogance, false vitality, utilitarian ethics,

imaging and posturing.

 

Tama-guna: lack of purpose, lack of identity, lost, cold,

dull, unethical, introverted, lacking presence, hiding,

lacking vitality.

 

 

MOON

 

Sattva-guna: receptivity, nurturing, nourishing, empathy,

comfort, emotional security and well-being, safety.

 

Raja-guna: anxiety, lack of empathy, insecure, emotional

upsets, angry depression.

 

Tama-guna: fear, apathy, poor self-esteem, lacks healthy

boundaries, apathy, sad depression, starved emotionally or

physically, denied, neglected, rejected, refused.

 

MERCURY

 

Sattva-guna: intelligent, articulate, perceptive, informed,

curious, desire to learn, appropriate communication.

 

Raja-guna: debate, argumentation, invalidation, ridicule,

cursing, nasty, hostile, competitive communications,

deliberate fallacies of logic to secure personal advantage,

one-upsmanship in communications.

 

Tama-guna: dull, bored, lack of interest, ignorant, stupid,

lack of communication, slow communication, neglected

communication, inadvertent fallacies of logic stemming from

ignorance.

 

 

VENUS

 

Sattva-guna: love, beauty, ideals, values, sweetness.

 

Raja-guna: lust, possessive, acquisitive, seeking other's

approval, material opulence.

 

Tama-guna: lazy, not living one's values, ugly, sloppy,

dirty, wants everything to be easy.

 

 

MARS

 

Sattva-guna: energy, strength, productive, appropriate use

of force, resilient in stressful situations.

 

Raja-guna: overuse of force, very strong, lust,

argumentative, hostile, selfish, stressed but struggling,

inflammatory, competitive, warlike attitude, greed.

 

Tama-guna: non energy, lacking strength, non-productive,

aimless, not willing or able to use force, collapsed or

overwhelmed from too much stress, lacks courage, lacks

motivation.

 

 

JUPITER

 

Sattva-guna: faith, mercy, vision, blessing,

fruitful, generous, abundance.

 

Raja-guna: arrogance, superior attitude, excess,

bigger/better/more, over the top, bragging, ostentation,

over-confident, greed.

 

Tama-guna: lack of havingness, bad judgment, no goals,

lacking faith, spiritually ignorant.

 

 

SATURN

 

Sattva-guna: truth, justice, definition, teaching, mastery,

essence, discipline, design, structure, simplicity, high

standards.

 

Raja-guna: ambition, critical attitude, invalidation,

superior attitude, harsh, unfeeling, unethical acts of

commission.

 

Tama-guna: lack, deficiency, poverty, dry, barren, inferior

attitude, ignorance, neglect of duties, irresponsibility,

unethical acts of omission.

 

 

source : internet.

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

i think i understand what you are telling, "things which appear like poison in the beginning may end up as nectar in the end and things that appear like nectar in the beginning may end up as poison in the end" - a verse in Gita (because material enjoyment appears like nectar in the beginning while Karma, Gyana, Bhakti, etc., appears like poison in the beginning]

 

and thanks for the information about Guna and planents it was news to me...

[Guest guest]

Sorry i have never mentioned Poison in my previous text.I

 

"i have gained one thing that "Truth is painful" as the same if you realise God then you have to go through painful and later you can come out of pain. that was happens when we are injured we get pain...which is truth but after that it become bliss to us. and feel friendly with it. is in't it... "

 

 

Its really tough to cross the roads of ignorance unless experience as your vehicle you can't cross . on the roads there may be miships but we need to carry on with the vehicle to reach the other side. thats what i meant.

 

i meant painful.not poison.

 

one point i would like to mention....here

 

if you are suffering you are learning something that is sure.even though you don't learn someother person is learning from your suffering.... and all humans are suffering now and there. that is truth. large groups say that you will be free from suffering but no its wrong..the body will suffer till decay. as its an object. only understanding and knowledge doesn't suffer. the confusion is created with mind as its realted to body and thus the stop for further aim is restricted. so the right knowledge is needed. not simple explaination.

 

am i right friend.

 

[Subham 0]

"all humans are suffering now and there. that is truth"

 

May be or May not be, i am in search of truth and i don't know the truth yet.

 

IF "Truth is Painful" And "God is Truth" (TAT SAT) this implies ---> "God is Painful" (atleast the logical implication)

 

What we know now may not be true knowledge, it is a conditioned knowledge which is conditioned to meet some imaginary universal standards, the knowledge we get (from books, tv, news papers, other people etc., ) makes us to think in the conditioned way.

 

So all your statements like "Truth is Painful", "without experience we can't cross ignorance", "all humans are suffering nowBody will suffer till decaythe confusion is created with mind as its realted to body and thus the stop for further aim is restricted" may be simple assumptions based on your day-to-day knowledge gathering experience from various sources.

 

As per Nyaya Sastra , we have six authortative source to knowledge (all other sources are non-authortative and hence may be just assumptions)

 

1) Direct Sensory Perception

 

2) Scriptures

 

3) Hearing from Great Men

 

4) Inference and Deduction (like seeing a smoke we can infer there is fire, i.e., logic)

 

5) Experience (real experience, unclouded by bias or prejudice)

 

6) Direct Transcandental knowledge , which is called wisdom, obtained in Samadhi state.

 

The Average men has only 5 sources functioning only great men has the 6th Gate opened

 

[For your info, not only rishis and yogis, even scientist have their 6th knowledge operating, for eg., Archimedis , Newton and Eintensin, the knowledge is revealed to them in Samadhi, where they have lost sense of everything, including themseleves, (that is why Archimedis ran nude in the street after revelation)]

 

Now may be you should start building your case by basing your statements on the above 6 factors and see if there are facts (no need to convince me or others, just convince yourself)

[Guest guest]

Hari OM:

 

thats correct thanks for opening my mind.

 

I need not convince others but need to convince myself. thats what truth is.

 

If i convince myself then ...it can be assumptions right. and i don't want assumption.to remove the assumption you need to speak to some one who knows better (again i don't assume that you know better but may be at this point of time the knowledge is with you and you are sharing with me)

 

if i take God to give all the information about his revealations and liberations.like he did to arjuna. its foolish in my part to wait for him. as he is in everybody and once i speak about this he should come and answer me in anyform all the time. not you alone is God but all. so only i am asking and clarification. I know the scriptures are well defined and in this age its not possible to read and understand all. and if i do all also its waste until i understand the same in same context.

 

anyway about "truth is painful" i din't mean that God is painful . that is again your assumption. see...that is the joke.

 

God is in that which we are. that is truth to achieve in every thing is painful to achieve. and what i say is truth .its not convincing you or others. but if i speak out may be right or wrong..... he will come and realise my fault . as i believe me . I am not typing these things but he himself makes to.

 

so no body is good at this knowledge i know that better. not even the Great persons. if they are great then again its our assumption that they are great.

 

the only great is God and he only makes human souls great of not great. mind intreprets wrong with relativity.

 

great peoples are born not made.and no great person say i am great. as he know how painful it is to be great. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

[ Thanks for pointing this omission]

 

"i din't mean that God is painful . that is again your assumption"

 

This is not my assumption, it is called inference

 

Your statement -- "Truth is Painful"

 

Veda's Statement - "Truth is God"

 

My inference -- "God is Painful"

 

Inference is different from assumptions.

 

Any how all the best for you in your search.

 

Also if you are searching for truth remember to be truthful always, like use the same login id for all the threads, post similar views in all the threads, etc., unless we are truthful to our selves we can never find the absolute truth..

[Guest guest]

Thanks Subham. it was nice chat with you.Thanks for your best wishes.

 

"Also if you are searching for truth remember to be truthful always, like use the same login id for all the threads, post similar views in all the threads, etc., unless we are truthful to our selves we can never find the absolute truth.. "

 

to point some thing..

 

again don't assume that other person can be not truthful.and unless you know the truth you can't comment on the other person's truthfulness.its obvious.

use as many names but still you are the same. so don't be afraid of thread names. if you have single view then you carry on why worry about other persons thread names /images/graemlins/smile.gif . it leads to the same point in one or the other way. but don't be afraid of others as all are one (inference). keep it one and once. Thanks. for your useful talk and i have gained a lot. (don't assume again. or inference that is stupid term i came accross this time) . its only one truth . inference in dictionary is just an another word for assumption western way again to put in puzzle.

 

"Sheep is dead" - Truth

"Sheep is dead" - Assumption

"Sheep is dead" - Inference.

 

all are same only mind which translates the same is wrong.tune it.you shall understand.

 

as there is no goat here.

 

hope i am right friend! thanks a lot. God bless you always and let you also find truth soon and lead others /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

If Assumption and Truth are the same, then why we should search for the Truth, we can assume anything we like and convince ourseleves, really i can't understand this point (may be my mind is out of tune, can't say)

 

i am not "afraid" of you using very ids and posting various views, it was just my suggestion that if we search truth then we must first be truthful to ourselves..

[Guest guest]

"If Assumption and Truth are the same, then why we should search for the Truth, we can assume anything we like and convince ourseleves, really i can't understand this point (may be my mind is out of tune, can't say)"

 

i shall make this point clear -

 

what you assume is to be truth. if you go by this you can easily find truth for sure. as only the assumption will become so called inference and the same truth.

 

"Sheep is dead" - suppose i assume

"Sheep is dead" - people democratic as you said 8/10 people say this. then its inference.

 

"Sheep is dead" - if you know the meaning of dead then that is truth.

 

so when you assume you are far. when you listen to others you are bit near. when you realise you are in truth.

 

as far you have to start with assume.then only the right and wrong will be found with help of inference and then only the truth will be realise.

 

 

assumption here means - rational thinking . it is not finalised thinking.

 

 

isn't it friend. (i am newly born, need to learn a lot , please teach me.)

[Subham 0]

Hari OM:

 

if you are looking for a teacher, you are looking at a wrong place, i am also a seeker and can't teach you (A blind man can't lead another)

 

If you say "Assumptions lead to Truth", i have no objections, i also agree that our assumptions when subjected to impartial and unbiased , tireless analysis may one day lead to truth. However i can't understand (and hence agree) "Assumption and Truth are the same"