can a backward caste person become a brahmana?

[Guest guest]

i have a friend who is a BC by birth.his father however realised the purity in BRAHMINISM and devoted himself to GAYATRI MANTRA,he took THE UPANAYANAM and switched to vegeterianism.when his son was around 9 yrs old,his son also was sanctified with UPANAYANAM.

in his application forms however,my friend writes his caste as a BC ,unwillingly though.

officially he is that na?he does'nt like it.he is a SHRI KRSNA devotee.he doesnt even eat onion/garlic or drink tea/coffee..i have some other brahmin friends who eat non-veg.i feel "THEY" are actual sudras!

BRAHMINISM comes from birth or by behavior?

will he have to wait for another birth to call himself a brahmin???

 

[Guest guest]

They get lot of benifits by reservation, job quotas etc, and at the same time enjoy being a brahmin also..... man.... these days, people born as brahmins suffer because of discrimination....

 

Well.... coming back to the point, as long as they dont use the BC trumpcard in getting college admissions, jobs, promotions etc.... and disguise as brahmins during marriage to get a brahmin girl, it is ok.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna!

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I offer my humble obeisances unto him!

 

Srila Prabhupada has clearly said that all people born in this age are SUDRAS.

 

Also, the duty of Brahmin is to preach God Consciousness. So, yes, a brahmin is classified not by birth right in this age of Kali but by his actions after his birth. If your friend is God conscious and spreads God Consciousness, then he is a brahmin.

 

This has been explained in depth by Srila Prabhupada in his books. If you read his books, you will find a more technical answer to your question. But, the bottomline is the qualification of brahmin is by action and not by birth.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

The Original caste definition was based on the practices not by birth.

 

Unfortunately in the present caste system, people are only considered if they are born in that caste and not by conversion. And there is reason for that. The present caste system was strongly built on certain practices (Brahmins especially) over generations. And obviously, any one who takes birth in that caste system would inherit them by birth and follows the same (strong belief).

 

What I would recommend, let him not bother about too much of caste system? Since he is practicing and following good traditions that would eventually lead him what he desires to become than on caste conversion belief. This would also help his next generations as well over period of time.

 

Secondly (Please excuse me), the desire to become part of particular caste system (which is considered high) may not be necessary to attain Gnyana unless person focusing towards gaining of Social Status. If you go back to our stories of Vyasa, Valmiki, they have attained Gnyana (Bramhanatvam) more by practicing and sharing of good religious practices than caste convertion.

 

I hope this would help him.

 

Hindu Savior

 

[BinduMadhav 0]

Guest wrote:

 

{will he have to wait for another birth to call himself a brahmin???}

 

He will have to wait for his next birth. All scriptures say that one has to be born a Brahmin in order to be called a true Brahmin. This is said in the Bhagavad-Gita and is supported by all scholars including (surprise) Advaita gurus from like Kanchi Kamakoti Pitham.

 

Recitation of Gayathri Mantra by a non-Brahmin results in terrible things. Have you not read Uttara Kanda of Valmiki Ramayan?

 

If he is born as a Shudra, he should perform his duties as a Shudra. Following one's own Dharma is supremely important.

 

All this being said, I have to express my genuine respect for this gentleman who completely turned his life around and became a Sadguna Sampanna as a vegetarian and other good qualities he has acquired.

 

[Guest guest]

The scriptures say in Kaliyuga everybody is basically a Shudra.

 

If you are born in a brahmana family but don't act as a brahmana (dealing with consciousness), you can't be considered to be a brahmana. Same goes for ksahatriya, vaishya and shudra. One is classified by the nature of his acting. This is what the scriptures proclaim according to the Vaishnava Acharyas. Anyway Bhaktisiddhanta has established that a Vaishnava is Higher than a brahmana. Try to find out a bit more about this by looking for books about the life of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. You'll get all the knowledge you need about it.

[barney 0]

Let us take this example: In a forest there live a brahmin family. Father, Mother, son and daughter. There is no one around for the next 50 kilimiters. After some years the father dies of illness and it is the duty of the son to carry out the last rites and he does it without the help of those assigend by manu smrti. Can the son after carrying out the funeral rituals be clasified as a sudra? There are so many ways one can think and having the God given brain man falis to think and rationalize. Here is what this authour says about caste system.

 

 

 

There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu

scriptures sanction the caste system.

 

Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste system or birth-based caste system. Mantra, numbered 10-13-1 in Rig Veda, addresses the entire humanity as divine children (shrunvantu vishve amrutsya putraha). Innumerable mantras in Vedas emphasise oneness, universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and commonality of entire humanity.

 

A few illustrations are given here. Vide Mantra numbered 5-60-5 in Rig Veda, the divine poet declares, “All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All are equal.” Mantra numbered 16.15 in Yajur Veda reiterates that all men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. Mantra numbered 10-191-2 in Rig Veda calls upon humanity to be united to have a common speech and a common mind. Mantra numbered 3-30-1 in Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and to love one another as the cow loves her newly-born calf. Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra numbered 3-30-6 in Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly united as the spokes attached to the hub of a chariot wheel.

 

The Bhagavad Gita, which contains the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many shlokas that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In shloka numbered V (29), Lord Krishna declares that He is the friend of all creatures (suhridam sarva bhutanam) whereas shloka numbered IX (29) reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord resides in him. Shloka numbered XVIII (61) declares that God resides in every heart (ishwar sarva bhutanam hrudyeshe Arjun tishthti).

 

Guna (Aptitude) and Karma (Actions)

 

Hindu scriptures speak only about ‘varna’ which means to ‘select’ (one’s profession, etc.) and which is not caste or birth-based.

 

As per shloka numbered IV (13) of the Bhagavad Gita, depending upon a person’s guna (aptitude) and karma (actions), there are four varnas. As per this shloka, a person’s varna is determined by his guna and karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of the Bhagavad Gita specifies three gunas viz. satva (purity), rajas (passion and attachment) and tamas (ignorance). These three gunas are present in every human in different proportions, and determine the varna of every person. Accordingly, depending on one’s guna and karma, every individual is free to select his own varna. Consequently, if their gunas and karmas are different, even members of the same family can belong to different varnas. Notwithstanding the differences in guna and karma of different individuals, Vedas treat the entire humanity with the same respect and do not sanction any caste system or birth-based caste system.

 

Veda is the Foundation

 

Hinduism is all-embracing and grants the same respect to all humans, and anything to the contrary anywhere is not sanctioned by the Vedas. Being divine revelation, the shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority on Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human recapitulations, smritis (recollections) can play only a subordinate role. As per shloka numbered (6) of Chapter 2 in Manu Smriti, “Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma.” Shloka numbered 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever shruti (vedas) and smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail over smritis. In view of this position, anything discriminatory in Manu Smriti or anywhere else is anti-Veda, and therefore, is not sanctioned by Hinduism and has subsequently been inserted with unholy intentions, and deserves to be weeded out.

 

Besides, precise codification of Hinduism in one book is indispensable to make Hinduism easier to be understood by a layman. For this codification, appropriate mantras of Vedas and Upanishads, and selected shlokas in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata (which also includes the Bhagavad Gita), etc. will provide the basic material.

 

Role of Media

 

In order to usher in a casteless and harmonious society, the all-embracing and universal message of Vedas has to be followed and spread.

 

Both the print and electronic media play an important role in a country’s life. They should contribute their mite to unite various sections of the society. But in India, most of the media are unwittingly strengthening caste and communal divisions. By publishing divisive articles and describing political leaders and electorates, achievers and sports persons, and even wrong-doers and their victims as members of a particular caste or community, the media is strengthening the divisions instead of unifying the society. The media should play a positive role so that there is amity all around.

 

Let Your Hearts be One

 

Anyone believing in the caste system is violating the Vedic command of oneness of entire humanity. Although the first known poem in the world appeared as the first mantra in Rig Veda, and though the Vedas and Upanishads contain the sublimest thoughts in the sublimest language, because of a faulty education system, most of the educated Indians are ignorant of their rich heritage contained in the Vedas and Upanishads. Most Indians do not know Sanskrit, the language of Vedic literature. Many persons do not know even the meaning of their Sanskrit names. By learning Sanskrit one can read the Vedas, though even translated Vedic literature can be studied.

 

We have to ensure that we do not lose our rich Vedic heritage as it would amount ot losing our identity. To ensure the survival of our Vedic heritage, and to bring about unity and harmony in society, it is imperative that the all-embracing message of the Vedes is practised and propagated.

 

 

[jayan008 0]

"He will have to wait for his next birth. All scriptures say that one has to be born a Brahmin in order to be called a true Brahmin."

 

Why? What if a child born to a brahmin is just not that intelligent to learn the scriptures, and not understand the spiritual meaning of life? Is he still a brahmin? What if he is good in business matters? Does he become a Vaishya - Since Vaishyas are classified as people who were engaged in business matters.

 

You have totally misunderstood what is written in the Bhagavad-Gita and preached by others. You have read and researched much, but you never tried to read the exact meaning. When it is said you have to be born brahmin, it does not mean you have to be born into a brahmin family, a brahmin is somebody who by his words, actions and deeds becomes one.

 

Nowhere in scriptures it is written that one's caste is determined by the family into whom he/she is born.

 

Caste division was made earlier to distinguish one's chosen profession. Hence, people who were well-versed and understood holy scriptures, meaning of life and its purpose were called Brahmins. People well-versed in martial arts and fighting skills were called Kshatriyas. Others who were more into business were called 'Vaishyas' and while others who didn't have any of the above skills and worked at farms etc., were known as 'Shudras'.

 

However, initially, anyone, born in any of the above caste would automatically shift his position as per the occupation/professions he chose as per the level of knowledge/skill he attains and as per his deeds. Hence, if a person, born to Kshatriya parents, attained spiritual knowledge, he would be regarded as a brahmin and likewise if a person, born to a brahmin, is more interested in business he becomes a Vaishya (just like today, a Doctor is called a Doctor, irrespective of his background, as he is qualified to be one).

 

Brahmins enjoyed great respect from the society and were looked upon with dignity, but then there came a period when they became selfish, since they could not stand to see their next generation of sons/daughters not getting the same respect/dignity as they were not as good and spiritually knowledgeable as their ancestors. They feared that this could spell end to their clan if this flexibility in freedom of choosing a profession is not stopped. Hence, these biased and selfish minded, planned various strategies to stop it, like spreading false information on caste determination by birth, non-access of scriptures to other caste claiming they were only authorised to access it, they put restrictions on inter-caste marriages and access to temples etc., Since they were well-regarded by the Kshatriya, the rulers, they got their support and for centuries this system followed, finally this resulted in other castes deprived of the valuable knowledge in the scriptures while brahmins had established a monopoly on it.

 

"Recitation of Gayathri Mantra by a non-Brahmin results in terrible things"

 

What terrible things will happen? Again you are giving the example of someone who is believing what is written. All these texts and scriptures which were under the seige of brahmins, have been rigged to suit their possessors. It is a well-known fact that history and related books, scriptures have undergone changes to suit and please the people who were in control of it or who ruled during a certain period. Interpretation has been varied from period to period.

 

It is one's Karma which determines your status and not your ancestoral background.

 

One of the guest said that "have the cake and eat it too", and that brahmins are being robbed of their jobs because of Shudras (OBCs etc.,) getting reservations. Its true, presently they getting jobs even though they are not highly qualified. This is atrocity, but isn't that applicable to every person who is given the power. Initially the brahmins who were landlords, during pre-independence era, did exactly the same thing, they misused their power and did all the atrocities with the poor class. This same applies to Kings (Kshatriyas), they too did atrocities, the Businessmen (Vaishyas) too indulges in atrocities to their labour and workmen. Human being, irrespective of their caste, creed or religion, if given power without proper knowledge, will misuse it.

 

For the person who had posted this message, dear friend, please tell your friend that since he is a bakht of Krishna, he need not worry, because Krishna himself was born as a Kshatriya, and see his good actions - in talk and deeds, has made him the Supreme One, and all these so called brahmins by birth, are his followers.

 

If he has problem of filling certificates with OBC category. He can very well opt for the 'General' category in future, there is no restrictions. Tell him to become a good human being by his own efforts and not look for favours handed out to him by others simply because he is born to one particular caste.

[Guest guest]

HARE KRISHNA!

Anand ji,,

i liked ur reply and completely agree with it,,iam the person who raised the doubt abt my friend.

u being a KRISHNA devotee, i request u to also reply to another topic: "marriage versus shastras: i big doubt" (u can see it in the index )

i would like to hear your valuable advice on the same.

HARE KRISHNA!

HARI BOL!!

 

[Guest guest]

i beg to differ from u (bindumadhav)...

all of us are aware of the fact that SHRI KRSNA was not born BRAHMIN.hear to this story now from the mahabharata ::::"in one of the yagnas that Yudhistra conducts,,there happens to be a requirement of donating food to a true BRAHMIN YOGI,,people search all over for such a 'true BRAHMIN YOGI'.yudhishtra sends men all over for the same,they come back invain,finally NARADA MUNI comes and tells him abt the BRAHMNIN YOGI who is right in front of him,,,SHRI KRSNA.all are amazed...when he donates the food,the yagna is declared completed successfully!"

 

Now,

1.THE LORD HIMSELF clearly proves and stands as an example to show that Birth is not important for one to become a brahmin,,it is the actions/speech/mind/purity that counts,our LORD was a complete and a true brahmin yogi,,,,YOGEESHWARA!!HARI BOL!!

 

2.SHRI KRSNA clearly states in his message to uddhava (srimad bhagvatam) that a person is called a brahmin/sudra,etc by his acts (NOT BY BIRTH).

 

3.how can u call a person born in a brahmin faminly , who eats meat and is full of tamasa/rajasika gunas as a brahmin???he is a dog-eater,,,not a brahmin.

if ur statement stands,the world would plunge into a chaos,full of nonsens untrue brahmins who are proud of breaking the rules of SATTVA GUNA!

HARE KRISHNA!

[BinduMadhav 0]

{Why? What if a child born to a brahmin is just not that intelligent to learn the scriptures, and not understand the spiritual meaning of life? Is he still a brahmin?}

 

{When it is said you have to be born brahmin, it does not mean you have to be born into a brahmin family, a brahmin is somebody who by his words, actions and deeds becomes one.}

 

In the Upanishads, it is mentioned that when a person dies, his soul will be reborn according to its Vasanas as well as samskaras in the appropriate caste. This is again confirmed by Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita, wherein He states clearly that He will make individuals to be born according to whatever Karmaphala the soul has acquired.

 

Svadharma is the most important Dharma for a person. A person born a Brahmin has to live the life of a Brahmin; this includes Agnikarya, Upasana, Sandhyavandana, Japa, Krishnanamasmarane and carrying out all the Dharmic Karmas. The same goes for all other castes. A Shudra has to serve. This is not Bindu Madhav speaking, this is Hindu Shastra speaking.

 

Lord Krishna, although the Supreme Lord, was born as a Kshatriya. In order to be an example to other Kshatriyas, He was extremely polite and reverent towards other Brahmins. Neither Lord Rama nor Lord Krishna ever tried to become a Brahmin. They lived their human lives as they were born.

 

Once a person is born as a Brahmana or Shudra, he should continue to do the Dharmas assigned to him. Trying to do something without being born into the family results in what happened to Shambuka, whose head was cut off by Sri Ramachandra (Uttara Kanda of Valmiki Ramayana). Ekalavya is another example. On the other hand, Karna, who was born a Kshatriya but raised a Shudra, reclaimed his right to being a Kshatriya.

 

Dharmavyadha, a Shudra, is more powerful than Kaushika, the Brahmin, because Dharmavyadha followed his own Dharma while Kaushika ignored his Dharma and went to forest (thus abandoning his old parents). The same with the lady at whose house Kaushika begged for food. She had the power to laugh at Kaushika when he wanted to burn her up, just like he had burnt the crane.

 

It is true that Mahabharat and other epics explains what the qualities of a Brahmin are: Shama, Dama, control of the Ari-Shadvargas (Kama Krodha Lobha Moha Mada Matsarya) and other divinely qualities. But nowhere have I read that a Shudra can become a Brahmin just like that.

 

As far as the intellectually challenged child born into the Brahmin family is concerned, just because he is immature, he cannot stop being a Brahmin. If the child cannot do the proper things as a Brahmin, the others should do for him. Once the child is born, his Samskara of a Brahmin birth will follow him regardless of whether he will live the life of a Brahmin or not.

 

Let me emphasize here again that all this is not Bindu Madhav's personal opinion. It is the opinion of learned Hindu scholars.

 

If someone desires birth in a Brahmin family, he should follow his own Dharma in this life and pray to Lord Krishna for a proper birth in the next life. The Lord is all merciful and He will grant that wish.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i request u to remind urself of the RAMAYANA!

it was composed by the great sage VALMIKI,,,all of us know that valmiki WAS not a brahmin,he was a thief,etc.later on, he became one the greatest rishis and wrote the RAMAYANA!

also,please read the 10th canto of SRIMAD BHAGVATAM ..THE LORD speaks to uddhava all about caste systems.

this is the most authentic and would clear the doubts as it is the LORD HIMSELF saying it,not i!!

HARE KRISHNA!

 

[jayan008 0]

"Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita, wherein He states clearly that He will make individuals to be born according to whatever Karmaphala the soul has acquired." This is not Bindu Madhav speaking, this is Hindu Shastra speaking." If someone desires birth in a Brahmin family, he should follow his own Dharma in this life and pray to Lord Krishna for a proper birth in the next life. The Lord is all merciful and He will grant that wish."

 

I am sorry, but i think it is still YOU speaking....and not Lord Krishna or Hindu Shastra.....As per you one's deeds of previous birth will decide his next birth, helped by Krishna, and, if you are born in brahmin family, means you have did right things in your last birth.

 

So what about all the brahmins who were born in a brahmin family who eat meat, talk foul, cheat and do degraded things????

 

a) Why are they acting so, since they are supposed to be great souls, the very reason they were promoted to be a brahmin in this birth?

 

b) Did they fool the Shastras ???

 

c) Did they trick Krishna????

 

d) Will they go back to become a Shudra in next birth?? If so, why didn't Krishna, the knower of all, realise it in the first place itself??? Will he be penalised for his mistake/oversight?

 

e) What of a shudra by his actions and deeds attains spiritual knowledge? Will Krishna make him take one more birth as brahmin, just as a formality, since it is mentioned in the Shastras (according to you) that one have to be born as a brahmin before he attains moksha. Is there bureaucracy and red-tapism in Heaven too, where everything has to occur in a set procedure???

 

"Once a person is born as a Brahmana or Shudra, he should continue to do the Dharmas assigned to him. Trying to do something without being born into the family results in what happened to Shambuka, whose head was cut off by Sri Ramachandra (Uttara Kanda of Valmiki Ramayana). Ekalavya is another example. On the other hand, Karna, who was born a Kshatriya but raised a Shudra, reclaimed his right to being a Kshatriya."

 

So, a (normal) person born in a brahmin family, who is not much enlightened or who doesn't have that grasping power of spiritual knowledge, (i am not saying he has any mental disability) but otherwise have a great business acumen should go the spiritual way, in which he has least knowledge???? Is this logical thinking???

 

This is just like reservations systems followed by government for scheduled caste in jobs. Since you are a brahmin by birth you will follow the spiritual path, even if you are incapable. No wonder such illogical thinking has left us Hindus with self-proclaimed (brahmin by birth) spiritual leaders who are only capable of parroting the scriptures and doing false propaganda with illogical interpretations. These are the terrible things that happens, if one does not understand the scriptures well and venture into something, of which one has little or no knowledge.

 

If every human being is made by God, then every aspect of his, including his intelligence, is made by God. So, when God has given him an intelligent brain more efficient to do business, he should be following it and not a spiritual path, in which he is incompetent.

 

The best example of failure of the theory of 'Right by Birth' is that of the great rulers of ancient times who passed on their empire to their undeserving sons and daughthers who were totally incapable of emulating their ancestors and with their poor skills (physical and intellectual) succumbed to outside invasion and split up within themselves. In the present day, most of the big family run organisation are facing the similar situation, by handing over the reins of a well-established million dollar firms, built over years, to their non-capable family members, just so that control stays in the family, finally facing bankruptcy.

 

Giving examples from scriptures, without realising the real truth, is spreading false information -

 

Shambuka's story is still debated and is said to be a later edition, because as per some researchers, Hindu texts typically end with a verse or verses that describe the religious merit or reading the text. These verses are called

Phalasrutis. Curiously, in the Valmiki Ramayana, the Phalasrutis occur at the end of 6th Kanda, which indicates that the entire Uttarakanda is a later addition. The language of the Uttarakanda is inferior to that of the other

kandas. Fewer poetical devices such as alamkaras are used in the Uttarakanda which raises the suspicion that an inferior poet had composed this work. Summaries of the Ramayana occuring in other Puranas and in the Mahabharata typically omit the portions of Uttarakanda and none

mentions the Shambuka Vadha episode. Of the other later 14 or so Sanskrit versions of Ramayana, only the Adhyatma Ramayana which is one of the latest, mentions the Shambuka episode and therefore it is of no independent authority

being based on Valmiki Ramayana itself.

 

This shows what the next generation selfish brahmins had done to the sacred scriptures. As i said earlier.

 

Now please don't deny that all these scriptures were intact since thousands of years. It is like cheating oneself.

 

Ekalavya is another example, not to a Shudra, but to Dronacharya and the entire humanity, as Drona himself paid for his life cruelly during the war, and was killed the same way, by treachery, just as he cheated Ekalavya.

 

[Guest guest]

""They get lot of benifits by reservation, job quotas etc, and at the same time enjoy being a brahmin also..... man.... these days, people born as brahmins suffer because of discrimination...."""

 

Brahmin is weigh more on action rather than birth. Whats wrong in people acting like brahmin to get jobs... So you mean to say those employers only employs brahmins, thats why these people are forced to act as a brahmin. So who is Discrimination who. Are the brahmins being discrimated or they discrimate other people ???

[BinduMadhav 0]

{it was composed by the great sage VALMIKI,,,all of us know that valmiki WAS not a brahmin,he was a thief,etc}

 

Be careful there. Valmiki was not an ordinary mortal. What Valmiki, Kaushika (who became Vishvamitra), Vasishtha (who married Arundhati, a non-Brahmin girl), and others were no ordinary mortals. If you (or the person about whom we are discussing) are like those great souls, sure you can do what they did.

[Guest guest]

BinduMadhav, you posts are purely biased, wrong, and you should read all the vedas and scripts cearefully before using them as reference. What do you take the rest of us for, bunch of illiterate idiots.

 

Bottom line: CASTE is a system created by Man!

 

 

Stop arguing in the forum and post something useful!

[Guest guest]

i request u to refer the souls whom u quoted earlier,,(karna/ekalavya,etc).

if u justify ur statements quoting them,,then on what basis do u unjustify VALMIKI's reference?

also,please kindly refer SRIMAD BHAGVATAM 11.17.13 ONWARDS..wherein THE LORD clearly talks about the caste systems..what they are,etc.

again,,pl read them very carefully,as any misinterpretation on ur part wud again cause some other debate on this topic from ur side.

HARE KRISHNA

JAI SRIMAN NARAYANA!

HARI BOL!

[Guest guest]

""They get lot of benifits by reservation, job quotas etc, and at the same time enjoy being a brahmin also..... man.... these days, people born as brahmins suffer because of discrimination...."""

 

Brahmin is weigh more on action rather than birth. Whats wrong in people acting like brahmin to get jobs... So you mean to say those employers only employs brahmins, thats why these people are forced to act as a brahmin. So who is Discrimination who. Are the brahmins being discrimated or they discrimate other people ??? ***********

 

I never said only brahmins should get jobs.

I said whomsoever is capable should not be denied an opportunity to perform just because he is born into a particular community.

The present scenario is such that, certain so called upper castes cannot even apply for some jobs.

Now you tell me who is dicriminating against who?

I think your stupid mind cannot even understand the job advertisements, college admission advertisements in news papers etc...

 

Oh... I have been calling you stupid again and again.... you will know all this only if you are from India...

[BinduMadhav 0]

{Bottom line: CASTE is a system created by Man!}

 

 

In Bhagavad-Gita, Lord Krishna Himself says that He created the Varnashrama Dharma. So I don't see how you can say that man created the caste system.

[Vinayakan 0]

In the Geeta ShriKrishna said: चातुर्वर्यं मया सृष्टं कर्मगुणविभाग्यशः।

The four varnas I made on the base of action and qualities. Birth is not mentioned by the Lord. Caste by birth is jati.

Jati is human made. Jati is not in our scriptures.

So every one can become a Brahmin. And every Brahmin by birth is not automatically a Brhahmin.

[BinduMadhav 0]

Vinayakan wrote:

 

{Birth is not mentioned by the Lord. Caste by birth is jati.

Jati is human made. Jati is not in our scriptures.

So every one can become a Brahmin. And every Brahmin by birth is not automatically a Brhahmin.}

 

Dear Vinayakan,

 

Bhagavad-Gita says:

 

16:24 One should understand what is duty and what is not duty by the regulations of the scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations, one should act so that he may gradually be elevated.

 

This means clearly that switching one's 'Dharma' from that of Shudra to one of Brahmin is not advisable.

 

4:13 According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

 

This means that the four divisions of human society is created by the Lord. On the other hand, Lord says that according to one's Gunas, He directs in whose Yoni one should take birth.

 

On the other hand, I don't understand why anyone would want to become a Brahmin.

 

9:32: O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth - women, vaisyas [merchants], as well

as sudras [workers] - can attain the Supreme destination.

 

So why bother to become a Brahmin? A true Brahmin's life is not easy. There are many restrictions on a Brahmin. Shama, Dama are all the qualities of a Brahmin. He has to control the Ari-Shadvargas (Kama Krodha Lobha Moha Mada and Matsarya). He cannot consume alcoholic beverages, eat meat and many others. In the case of people like me, it has become a way of life for us. I don't do Agnikarya, but that is due to lack of facilities. Like this, there are innumberable restrictions on a Brahmin's life. There is no reason why a Shudra should want to become a Brahmin. These days, it is not even status.

 

 

[Guest guest]

*****I don't do "Agnikarya", but that is due to lack of facilities. Like this, there are innumberable restrictions on a Brahmin's life.*******

Can you please explain what Agnikarya means? Do you mean Agnihotram, samithadaanam etc?

I agree, living life as a true brahmin is very difficult, and I cannot even do sandhyavandanam properly.

 

*******There is no reason why a Shudra should want to become a Brahmin. These days, it is not even status.******

I totally agree with this. May I know what is your reason for stating so apart from the scriptures you have quoted?

 

 

[jayan008 0]

"9:32: O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth - women, vaisyas [merchants], as well

as sudras [workers] - can attain the Supreme destination."

 

How do one know whether he/she is a man or woman on birth - by the physical qualities. Now, how do people know which form of career he/she or path of life he/she should choose - by his/her's inherent intellectual capabilities and knowledge he earns during his life. Thence, Krsna says, you may be born as/into any category, with your good karma (words, actions and deeds) you attain supreme destination.

 

The tendency of a particular man towards work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter.

 

Check the quotes of Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 18:

 

18:42

samo damas tapah saucam

ksantir arjavam eva ca

jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma-karma svabhava-jam

 

SYNONYMS

samah--peacefulness; damah--self-control; tapah--austerity; saucam--purity; ksantih--tolerance; arjavam--honesty; eva--certainly; ca--and; jnanam--knowledge; vijnanam--wisdom; astikyam--religiousness; brahma--of a brahmana; karma--duty; svabhava-jam--born of his own nature.

 

18:43

sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam

yuddhe capy apalayanam

danam isvara-bhavas ca

ksatram karma svabhava-jam

 

SYNONYMS

sauryam--heroism; tejah--power; dhrtih--determination; daksyam--resourcefulness; yuddhe--in battle; ca--and; api--also; apalayanam--not fleeing; danam--generosity; isvara--leadership; bhavah--nature; ca--and; ksatram--ksatriya; karma--duty; svabhava-jam--born of his own nature.

 

18:44

krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam

vaisya-karma svabhava-jam

paricaryatmakam karma

sudrasyapi svabhava-jam

 

SYNONYMS

krsi--plowing; go--cows; raksya--protection; vanijyam--trade; vaisya--vaisya; karma--duty; svabhava-jam--born of his own nature;

 

paricarya--service; atmakam--nature; karma--duty; sudrasya--of the sudra; api--also; svabhava-jam--born of his own nature.

 

Now find the common thing in all - The last line - "born of his own nature". What does nature means here. It means the qualities / characteristics which a person possess, meaning your path is determined by your in-born qualities and knowledge you posess - and not determined by birth in a particular family.

 

Nobody is striving here to be brahmin. It is only a path of life which someone took, since the person finds peace in such a path. However you are misleading everyone by restricting a person's desire by telling that being a Shudra by birth, he should not indulge in any spiritual activities and giving wayward and illogical interpretations of Bhagwad Gita and the sacred quotes mentioned therein.

 

You may once again quote something from the scriptures to validate your point, but am afraid, your interpretations are at fault. You may refer to Gita a hundred times, yet you will never find peace, because you have limited the boundaries of your intellect mind. You have become a slave of words in the scriptures, whilst not understanding the hidden truth therein.

 

It doesn't mean that you should never discuss your point of view, as this being a discussion forum, but discussion sans logic will go on endlessly without any end result.

 

Each and everything mentioned in Bhagavad Gita has a logical and practical explanation, provided you understand the correct meaning of it. Any person seeking a logical explanation would be misguided by your comments, because your explanations are falling woefully short of justification. The affect of this is creating an impression of incompleteness and non-fulfillment in the seeker's mind, thus putting doubts on Krishna as the Supreme Diety and his quotes in Bhagavad Gita non-enlightening.

 

The holy scriptures are for the entire human race and not restricted to hindu-brahmins from India. Anyone anywhere in the world, regardless of his religious background, country, colour, sex - is one with Krishna if he practice good karma.

 

[thiruvengadam 0]

i do accept with all what u have said...that how much ever one reads Gita with a fixed mindset then he is limiting the goodness what Gita gives....but if u carefulling read ur words then u can find that u also fall under the same category by referring to krishna as Supreme deity....Krishna makes it were clear that He is Bramhan..when he talks about Brahman then it becomes very clear that all is one God......how can any God not be Brahman...? if u deny the concept of Brahman then why should krishna use the term brahman?...when krishna spoke gita he did talk as the 8th avatar of vishnu but He spoke gita as Brahman....Shiva is brahman for that instance and so is Brahma.....when He creates He is Brahma, when He protects He is Vishnu (krisna) and when he dissolves He is Shiva.....

[radhekrsna 0]

bindumadhav,,,i have read all ur statements..i cud clearly see that it is YOU who is speaking all the time and not the LORD in you!

first of all,,BRAHMIN means a person who has realised the BRAHMAN/BRAHMA JNANAM and spreads the good word to the people around him.

the LORD is not partial toward the the people who take birth in brahmin families...HE has given EVERYONE a chance to become a brahmin.

remember only true BRAHMINS who realize the LORD can attain HIS kingdom(ofcourse also those who get killed by HIM,who die on ekadasi,etc)

so,tell me one simple thing.."can u call a person born in a brahmin family a BRAHMIN if he eats non-veg breaks all the laws,???

i agree that a person born in a particular family shd follow his dharma and thus can in that way be elevated.but,this does not mean that a soul born in a non-brahmin family is deprived of a chance to become a brahmin.

by his vasanas or punayakrams in his n'th birth previously,,he might have the satvik gunas and thus can be lucky enough to take the GAYATRI initiation.

remember that GAYATRI initiation purifies a person and makes him eligible enough to refine himself to reach the SUPREME-MOST abode!

HARE KRISHNA!

HARI BOL!