Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

August 7, 2005

“As we see here, identity is not what is taught here”. Then baby, what does “Indu is Indra, the showerer, the lord of all creatures” mean?

It means more than identity. IT SIMPLY MEANS: INDU (SOMA) IS REALITY OF INDRA, the vR'Saa háriH;

Hmm..Atanu does not understand English or lsimple logic as well.

If I say "Atanu is chairman", does it imply that there is no other person who is also a chairman.

The word "INDRA" is a common noun used to describe one of the qualities of Soma and not identity or reality as you hallucinate or day dream.

Indra = To conquer(this is the meaning).

vR'Saa = Powerful

háriH = Golden colored

Similarly when one says "INDU(SOMA) is INDRA", it simply means "Soma is conquerer".

The whole verse translates as "the golden-coloured pure-flowing Indu is conquerer".

Rest of it is your hallucination.

Since:

YV vi. 1. 11.

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma Indra slew Vrtra'. In that he offers an animal to Agni and Soma, it slays hostile things for him;

MERE KNOWLEDGE OF SANSKRIT MAKES A PANDIT BUT NOT A SAGE. AND YOU ARE NOT A FULL BAKED PANDIT EITHER. YOU ARE MALICIOUS. YOU ARE A DELIGHTER PAR EXCELLENCE, WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HIS OWN JOKES AND HIMSELF BECOMES THE JOKE.

Mere repetition would not help Atanu.

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma Indra slew Vrtra'.

August 7, 2005

Since:

YV vi. 1. 11.

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma Indra slew Vrtra'. In that he offers an animal to Agni and Soma, it slays hostile things for him;

MERE KNOWLEDGE OF SANSKRIT MAKES A PANDIT BUT NOT A SAGE. AND YOU ARE NOT A FULL BAKED PANDIT EITHER. YOU ARE MALICIOUS. YOU ARE A DELIGHTER PAR EXCELLENCE, WHO DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HIS OWN JOKES AND HIMSELF BECOMES THE JOKE.

Atanu you do not understand English as well.

Let me explain this verse.

The first part of the verse says

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma Indra slew Vrtra'.

This simply means Indra achieved victory by sacrifice. This explanation is right because the verse appears in the context where it explains how to conduct sacrifices. Look at the context about instructions about "how much" and "what ingredient" is to be offered to which Deity.

The following verse is an instruction to performers of sacrifice informing them as to what is to be offered for Agni and Soma.

In that he offers an animal to Agni and Soma, it slays hostile things for him;

So Mr. Atanu please explain your objective for quoting this verse now with reason instead of exposing your lack of knowledge and foolishness again and again.

August 7, 2005

THE WORD "INDRAYÚH" MEANS "LONGING FOR OR WISHING TO APPROACH INDRA". IT IMPLIES SOMA, THE ABHIMANI DEITY OF SOMAPANAH, IS LOWER IN POSITION TO INDRA.”

NO, NO: INDRAYUH = ENJOYED BY INDRA, THAT MEANS: “SOMA IS SERVING INDRA”.

"Indrayuh" - Enjoyed by Indra (OR) "Longing to be enjoyed by Indra"

Both these meanings imply that the lower Devata SOMA is enjoyed by the higher devata INDRA. It is always the subservient who is used by the master just like the case of SOMA being used by Indra.

“EKO WHICH IS A NOUN IS CALLED BY ANOTHER NOUN RUDRO, BUT RUDRO IS NOT THAT NOUN EKO”, “SARVA VAI RUDRA” MEANS SARVA IS CALLED RUDRA BUT SARVA IS NOT RUDRA”

I thought that was very clear, but for a guy with your intellect, it may not be true.

If I say "Bush is President of America", it does not imply every President of America is Bush.

Similarly, EKO HI RUDRO means "that Being called EKO is Rudra(one who makes living creatures cry)".

But it does not imply that somebody with the name Rudra is that EKO described in that Upanishad.

DO NOT MUDDY THE NAME OF SAYANA EVER AGAIN. SAYANA DID NOT WRITE IN ENGLISH. YOU PASS ON YOUR PUTRID CONCOCTION IN THE NAME OF SAYANA.

SAYANA DID NOT ADD “[AS SOVEREIGN: LIT. 'AS INDRA', I.E., ACTING AS SOVEREIGN]”. THIS IS YOUR ADDITION.

REPEAT:

SAYANA DID NOT ADD “[AS SOVEREIGN: LIT. 'AS INDRA', I.E., ACTING AS SOVEREIGN]”. THIS IS YOUR ADDITION.

Remove your addition and let the world see.

9.006.02 Indu, do you, as sovereign, effuse that exhilarating juice, and pour forth (to us) vigorous steeds.

“To us” shown in bracket has been removed BY kanna and “[AS SOVEREIGN: LIT. 'AS INDRA', I.E., ACTING AS SOVEREIGN]” inserted.

NO ONE CAN ACT AS SOVEREIGN, IF ONE IS NOT SO. IF ONE COULD THEN ALL WOULD BE SOVEREIGN.

"Acting as Sovereign" is the commentary of Sayana on that verse while Sayana explains what "as Soverign" means. This is as per the reference I have.

You said no one could act as Sovereign.

If a President delegates some of his powers, that person can act as president for those circumstances.

Similarly, Soma is delegated some powers in certain situation and soma acts as Indra(the conquerer). That is all. All this useless speculation of yours shows your atmost depsperation.

*******Sruti calls Soma as Indrapaanah(Beverage of Indra), this is not my opinion and I have quoted the Sruti. **************

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF “NECTAR OF BLISS OF GOD”? You are an out and out materialist, unable to imbibe even a bit of the nectar.

Nice creativity here. I have to appreciate you here. But your desperation to concoct is exposed here from this orginal verse

9.096.03 Divine Soma, who are the beverage of Indra, flow at our sacrifice for (his) abundant food; sending water, causing rain to fall upon heaven and upon this earth, (come) from the wide (firmament, and) being purified bestow upon us wealth.

I wonder why "nectar or bliss of GOD" needs purification.

Hmm...Well I know now, because it is an ingredient used in Yajna.

August 7, 2005

***************

In reply to:

RV 9.12 - soma pavamana

4 Far-sighted Soma, Sage and Seer, is worshipped in the central point Of heaven, the straining-cloth of wool.

WHAT SHAME, A MERE BEVERAGE, PROBABLY A WHISKEY, IS WORSHIPPED IN THE CENTRAL POINT OF THE HEAVEN? LORD WHAT IS ‘the straining-cloth of wool’? IS IT THE SAHARSARARA, THE TOP OF THE HEAD?

Nice imagination. Merely points out that Soma truly generated from heaven.

***************

You are a joker who does not understand his own jokes. I do not have anything against you but i do not have any compunction to say that you have become a true fool due to your ego.

A BEVERAGE IS WORSHIPPED AT THE HIGHEST POINT OF HEAVEN? AND IN THE PROCESS, THE EARTH AND THE HEAVEN ARE GENERATED?

Do you know Atanu, you are adept in quoting some verses without understanding a word of that verse.

Did you think about what this central point in heaven is ?

Here is the original Sanskrit verse.

divó naábhaa vicakSaNó avyo vaáre mahiiyate

sómo yáH sukrátuH kavíH

9.012.04 Soma, the observant, who is the wise seer, who is worshipped in the navel of the sky, the woollen filter.

What is this central point or navel of sky and what is this woolen filter doing here ? I thoght filters are used to purify some liquid. Is it as Atanu's creativity(i mean his tendency to cheat as an advaiti) tells us sahasrara chakra or does it refer to a sacrifice ?

Let us see what the Rig Veda verses themselves say.

1.164.34 I ask you, (institutor of the rite), what is the uttermost end of the earth; I ask you, where is the navel of the world. I ask you, what is the fecundating power of the rain-shedding steed; I ask you, what is the supreme heaven of (holy) speech. [The next hymn answers the questions].

1.164.35 This altar is the uttermost end of the earth; this sacrifice is the navel of the world; this Soma is the fecundating power of the rain-shedding steed; this Brahma_(the priest of sacrifice) is the supreme heavn of (holy) speech. [This altar: eta_vati_ vai pr.thivi_ ya_va_ti_ vedih, such or so much, verily, as the earth, so much is the altar; it is the essence of the whole earth (Taittiri_ya Sam.hita_ 2.6.4); the navel of the world: na_bhi = sannahana, the binding together of man with the mans of subsistence, or the crops that spring from the rain which falls as the consequence of sacrifice or of oblations; holy speech: the texts of the Vedas, of which Brahma_, or the priest, is the author ir expounder].

Hmm...Looks like all these verses are referring to a sacrifice.

I think Atanu is very desperate to cheat as advaitis and shivites have that as their very nature.

August 7, 2005

********The word "Manifests" assumes pre-existence of these Devatas************

I see. “Generator” has become “manifests”. The verse is:

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

Replace father by generator if you wish. It is Soma who is the “begetter” and THERE IS NO YAJAMANA IN THIS VERSE. YOUR SERPENTINE LOGIC MAKES YOU A JOKER.

Looks to me that you are the one involed in serpentine logic. Usually advaitis are adeptt in this art of cheating. Won't you agree Atanu ?

Refer to my previous posts, refer to the word "Indrapaanah", refer to the satement that this Indrapaanah being purified in that same Rig Veda Verse and refer to the rig veda vrses where it calls the navel of world or sky as sacrifice and not as you day dream about your imaginary highest point in heaven etc.

You would not hallucinate about "nectar or bliss of GOD", rather you would find the simple truth that these verses refer to Somapaanah, an ingredient used in sacrifice and its abhmani deity Soma who serves Indra and is used(enjoyed) by Indra(Indrayuh).

Please refer to the following verses as well, where it says that that Brahma_(priest of sacrifice) is the heaven referred in the verses related to Soma sacrifice.

1.164.34 I ask you, (institutor of the rite), what is the uttermost end of the earth; I ask you, where is the navel of the world. I ask you, what is the fecundating power of the rain-shedding steed; I ask you, what is the supreme heaven of (holy) speech. [The next hymn answers the questions].

1.164.35 This altar is the uttermost end of the earth; this sacrifice is the navel of the world; this Soma is the fecundating power of the rain-shedding steed; this Brahma_ is the supreme heavn of (holy) speech. [This altar: eta_vati_ vai pr.thivi_ ya_va_ti_ vedih, such or so much, verily, as the earth, so much is the altar; it is the essence of the whole earth (Taittiri_ya Sam.hita_ 2.6.4); the navel of the world: na_bhi = sannahana, the binding together of man with the mans of subsistence, or the crops that spring from the rain which falls as the consequence of sacrifice or of oblations; holy speech: the texts of the Vedas, of which Brahma_, or the priest, is the author ir expounder].

Based on the above verses we can see that words like heaven, navel of heaven etc. allegorically refer to priest of sacrifice, the sacrifice itself etc.

Bassed on these words like heaven, earth, Indra, Visnu etc. may not refer to deities directly as you think.

Secondly, even if you think so janitaa(generator) may not mean creation of these Devatas like Indra etc. In a sacrifice words are used to represent some ingredient or some utilities used in sacrice or the sacrifice itself like the navel of world sybolically pointing to sacrice itself according to rig veda verses cited above.

I think enough of Atanu's ignorance, arrogance, foolishness and blind belief in faulty understanding(of Vedas) is exposed.

August 7, 2005

divó naábhaa vicakSaNó avyo vaáre mahiiyate

sómo yáH sukrátuH kavíH

9.012.04 Soma, the observant, who is the wise seer, who is worshipped in the navel of the sky, the woollen filter.

Mr. Atanu,

The above verse by itself clearly tells that the "woollen filter", one of the utilities used in sacrifice, is symbolically referred to as "navel of sky".

This is evident from Rig Veda verses 1.164.34 and 1.164.35 where the institutor of rites is asked the question "what is navel of world" and he answers that "Sacrifice is the navel of world".

In a similar fashion the Rig Veda verse 9.12.04 calls the "wollen filter" as "Navel of Sky". Read the verses in context and you would understand it properly.

August 7, 2005

Atanu,

I should appreciate your skill in skillfully avoiding important points and not answering then. Here are some of them

1. Why do you neglect reference to Soma as Indrapaanah and twist its meaning ?

sá no deva devátaate pavasva mahé soma psárasa indrapaánaH

kRNvánn apó varSáyan dyaám utémaám urór aá no varivasyaa punaanáH

9.096.03 Divine Soma, who are the beverage of Indra (indrapaánaH), flow at our sacrifice for (his) abundant food; sending water, causing rain to fall upon heaven and upon this earth, (come) from the wide (firmament, and) being purified bestow upon us wealth.

"Nectar or bliss of GOD" needs no purification, hence "Indrapaanah" here refers to Soma, who is not paramatma.

2. The word "indrayúH" means "longing for or wishing to approach Indra" or "used by Indra for his enjoyment". It implies Soma, the abhimani deity of Somapanah, is lower in position to Indra. So Atanu's explanation does not hold here.

pári No deváviitaye vaájaaM+ arSasi gómataH

punaaná indav indrayúH

9.054.04 Purified Indu, who are devoted to Indra(indrayúH

), pour down for our sacrifice, food with milk and curds.

3. Here is another verse where Soma(panah) is given as gift for the service of Indra. This again shows Soma's sub-ordinate position to Indra.

taá abhí sántam ástRtam mahé yúvaanam aá dadhuH

índum indra táva vraté

9.009.05 Indra, at your worship, they (the fingers) have provided the present, indestructible, and ever-youthful Indu, for your solemn service.

4. Why would SOMA, if he is paramatma, try to atttain heaven here. This verse also explains why Soma is serving Indra. It is because through this, Soma attains heaven.

9.096.18 Thinking as a r.s.i, acting as a r.s.i, gaining heaven, praised by thousands, the guide of the wise, the mighty Soma desiring to attain the third region (heaven), being praised adds lustre to the illustrious (Indra).

All these verses show sub-ordinate nature of Soma to Indra and hence Soma is not parmatma.

August 7, 2005

RV 1. HYMN XCI Soma.

5 Thou, Soma, art the Lord of heroes, King, yea, Vrtra-slayer thou: Thou art auspicious energy.

Soma is Aditi.

You seem not to know that Soma is in three regions; in the highest as well as the lowest. The lowest occurrence is in you. Atma in you is the lowest since it has become very impure, by living in falsehood day in day out and needs purification.

This purification Indu himself will do, if you drop your proud ego. Else, Rudra-Indra will come in with noose.

************

Hmm..Atanu does not understand English or lsimple logic as well.

-----------

The word "INDRA" is a common noun used to describe one of the qualities of Soma and not identity or reality as you hallucinate or day dream.

Indra = To conquer(this is the meaning). vR'Saa = Powerful háriH = Golden colored

Similarly when one says "INDU(SOMA) is INDRA", it simply means "Soma is conquerer".

****************

Oh yes, where is the problem: Soma is Indra (conqueror). That is what the verse says.

Somah is Indra (conquerer), vR'Saa (Powerful) and háriH = Golden colored. Indra is also that isn’t it?

Yes, Yes, I agree, Somah is Indra (conquerer) and HariH.

*******************

In reply to:

--

Since:

YV vi. 1. 11.

Or rather they say, 'By Agni and Soma Indra slew Vrtra'. In that he offers an animal to Agni and Soma, it slays hostile things for him;

--

Atanu you do not understand English as well.

**************

Do you understand anything; you proud ignorant fellow?

I FULLY AGREE THAT I WILL JUST OFFER THE BEAST (EGO), TO SOMA AND AGNI, AND BY THAT HOSTILE THINGS LIKE YOU WILL BE SLAYED.

Where is the problem?

There is a verse to this effect:

HYMN CIV. Indra-Soma.

1. INDRA and Soma, burn, destroy the demon foe, send downward, O ye Bulls, those who add gloom to gloom. Annihilate the fools, slay them and burn them up: chase them away from us, pierce the voracious ones.

8 Whoso accuses me with words of falsehood when I pursue my way with guileless spirit, May he, the speaker of untruth, be, Indra, like water which the hollowed hand compresses.

9 Those who destroy, as is their wont, the simple, and with their evil natures harm the righteous, May Soma give them over to the serpent, or to the lap of Nirrti consign them.

12 The prudent finds it easy to distinguish the true and false: their words oppose each other.Of these two that which is the true and honest, Soma protects, and brings the false to nothing.

1

3 Never doth Soma aid and guide the wicked or him who falsely claims the Warrior's title. He slays the fiend and him who speaks untruly: both lie entangled in the noose of Indra.

**********

In reply to:

--

THE WORD "INDRAYÚH" MEANS "LONGING FOR OR WISHING TO APPROACH INDRA". IT IMPLIES SOMA, THE ABHIMANI DEITY OF SOMAPANAH, IS LOWER IN POSITION TO INDRA.”

NO, NO: INDRAYUH = ENJOYED BY INDRA, THAT MEANS: “SOMA IS SERVING INDRA”.

--

"Indrayuh" - Enjoyed by Indra (OR) "Longing to be enjoyed by Indra"

Both these meanings imply that the lower Devata SOMA is enjoyed by the higher devata INDRA. It is always the subservient who is used by the master just like the case of SOMA being used by Indra.

****************

Yes. Like Rudra uses Soma as the socket of his bow and Vishnu and Agni as the arrow to destroy the tripura.

But, you proud fellow do you understand english? "Indrayuh" - Enjoyed by Indra (OR) "Longing to be enjoyed by Indra” are not same and are reverse in their meaning.

"I enjoy atmic bliss" and "atma longs to go to Indra (the mind)" are different.

***************

In reply to:

--

“EKO WHICH IS A NOUN IS CALLED BY ANOTHER NOUN RUDRO, BUT RUDRO IS NOT THAT NOUN EKO”, “SARVA VAI RUDRA” MEANS SARVA IS CALLED RUDRA BUT SARVA IS NOT RUDRA”

--

I thought that was very clear, but for a guy with your intellect, it may not be true.

If I say "Bush is President of America", it does not imply every President of America is Bush.

Similarly, EKO HI RUDRO means "that Being called EKO is Rudra(one who makes living creatures cry)".

But it does not imply that somebody with the name Rudra is that EKO described in that Upanishad.

*************

Beauty of your brain devoid of Soma! Your logic is actually “President of America is George Bush but George Bush is not president of America, some one else is.

“EKO HI RUDRO NA DVITIYA TASTU”

Eko is not a noun. Eko means one. And the verse says: There is no second. Do not lie on religious matters.

**************

In reply to:

--

SAYANA DID NOT ADD “[AS SOVEREIGN: LIT. 'AS INDRA', I.E., ACTING AS SOVEREIGN]”. THIS IS YOUR ADDITION.

Remove your addition and let the world see.

9.006.02 Indu, do you, as sovereign, effuse that exhilarating juice, and pour forth (to us) vigorous steeds.

--

"Acting as Sovereign" is the commentary of Sayana on that verse while Sayana explains what "as Soverign" means. This is as per the reference I have.

***********

"Acting as Sovereign" is not Sayana's commentary but your addition.

There is no "Acting as Sovereign" in the verse but only “as Sovereign”

***********

In reply to:

--

*******Sruti calls Soma as Indrapaanah(Beverage of Indra), this is not my opinion and I have quoted the Sruti. **************

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF “NECTAR OF BLISS OF GOD”? You are an out and out materialist, unable to imbibe even a bit of the nectar.

--

I wonder why "nectar or bliss of GOD" needs purification.

*************

Hmm. Since it is very impure in you; it is clothed in false hood and treachery to Vedas.

************

In reply to:

--

RV 9.12 - soma pavamana

4 Far-sighted Soma, Sage and Seer, is worshipped in the central point Of heaven, the straining-cloth of wool.

A BEVERAGE IS WORSHIPPED AT THE HIGHEST POINT OF HEAVEN? AND IN THE PROCESS, THE EARTH AND THE HEAVEN ARE GENERATED?

--

Do you know Atanu, you are adept in quoting some verses without understanding a word of that verse.

Did you think about what this central point in heaven is?

Here is the original Sanskrit verse.

divó naábhaa vicakSaNó avyo vaáre mahiiyate

sómo yáH sukrátuH kavíH

9.012.04 Soma, the observant, who is the wise seer, who is worshipped in the navel of the sky, the woollen filter.

What is this central point or navel of sky and what is this woolen filter doing here ? -----

Let us see what the Rig Veda verses themselves say.

1.164.34 I ask you, (institutor of the rite), what is the uttermost end of the earth; I ask you, where is the navel of the world. I ask you, what is the fecundating power of the rain-shedding steed; I ask you, what is the supreme heaven of (holy) speech. [The next hymn answers the questions].

1.164.35 This altar is the uttermost end of the earth; this sacrifice is the navel of the world; this Soma is the fecundating power of the rain-shedding steed; this Brahma_(the priest of sacrifice) is the supreme heavn of (holy) speech. ------

Hmm...Looks like all these verses are referring to a sacrifice.

I think Atanu is very desperate to cheat as advaitis and shivites have that as their very nature.

*****************

Hmm. I told you, your very nature is false hood. The first verse is about “divó naábhaa” the navel of heaven were worship is mentioned and “wooly filter” is mentioned.

The second verse is about a sacrifice, expounded by Rishi Dirghatma. Yes, the altar of the sacrifice is the end of the earth. There is no heaven mentioned yet. We know it very well. And best sacrifice is in the mind at the saharsarara.

But “the supreme heaven of (holy) speech” is mentioned. It is Soma, (and not the way you make the sacrificer himself the supreme heaven). And not as you interpret since vak ( holy hymns) is generated by Soma.

And you abuse advaitins?

The “wooly filter” as sacrificial material is not there at all in Vamiya sukta. You are a liar. You are an abuser.

And here also Soma and Agni are sufficient.

****************

In reply to:

--

I see. “Generator” has become “manifests”. The verse is:

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

It is Soma who is the “begetter” and THERE IS NO YAJAMANA IN THIS VERSE. YOUR SERPENTINE LOGIC MAKES YOU A JOKER.

--

You would not hallucinate about "nectar or bliss of GOD", rather you would find the simple truth that these verses refer to Somapaanah, an ingredient used in sacrifice and its abhmani deity Soma who serves Indra and is used(enjoyed) by Indra(Indrayuh).

************

You are adept at abusing and lying at the same time. Can you please explain what exactly is this “Somapaanah, an ingredient used in sacrifice”. Have you ever used it?

HERE AGAIN SOMA IS SUFFICIENT DEITY TO GENERATE HOLY HYMNS, SURYA, AGNI, EARTH, INDRA AND VISHNU

And you are truly a joker; always thinking of supremacy and not of God.

*************

divó naábhaa vicakSaNó avyo vaáre mahiiyate

sómo yáH sukrátuH kavíH

9.012.04 Soma, the observant, who is the wise seer, who is worshipped in the navel of the sky, the woollen filter.

Mr. Atanu,

The above verse by itself clearly tells that the "woollen filter", one of the utilities used in sacrifice, is symbolically referred to as "navel of sky".

This is evident from Rig Veda verses 1.164.34 and 1.164.35 where the institutor of rites is asked the question "what is navel of world" and he answers that "Sacrifice is the navel of world".

In a similar fashion the Rig Veda verse 9.12.04 calls the "wollen filter" as "Navel of Sky". Read the verses in context and you would understand it properly.

***********

AS shown above, it is clear that you are a cheater. There is no connection between (RV 9.012.04) and (RV 1.164.34 and 1.164.35).

************

Atanu,

I should appreciate your skill in skillfully avoiding important points and not answering then. Here are some of them

1. Why do you neglect reference to Soma as Indrapaanah and twist its meaning ?

sá no deva devátaate pavasva mahé soma psárasa indrapaánaH

kRNvánn apó varSáyan dyaám utémaám urór aá no varivasyaa punaanáH

4. Why would SOMA, if he is paramatma, try to atttain heaven here. This verse also explains why Soma is serving Indra. It is because through this, Soma attains heaven.

All these verses show sub-ordinate nature of Soma to Indra and hence Soma is not parmatma

**************

I know your mind only wants to establish your own superiority and not of Lord.

Who has claimed that SOMA is param atma? Soma is divine and so even from terrestrial realms it remains fit for devas, like Agni.

Param Atma has become Soma and entered everything through the wooly filter.

Book 9 HYMN II. Soma Pavamana.

10 Winner of kine, Indu, art thou, winner of heroes, steeds, and strength. Primeval Soul of sacrifice.

And Indra and Visnu are vesels full of this sacrificial soul.

6. HYMN LXIX. Indra-Visnu

2 Ye who inspire all hymns, Indra and Visnu, ye vessels who contain the Soma juices,

----------

And Vrtra-slayer is Soma. It will slay you because you lie.

1. HYMN XCI Soma.

5 Thou, Soma, art the Lord of heroes, King, yea, Vrtra-slayer thou:

Thou art auspicious energy.

Indra being Vrtra slayer is a story for you people. The soul is the strength, the energy, the immortality.

The soul is Indra (conqueror).

August 8, 2005

Kanna there is ONE Lord alone.

Kanna, I am afraid that on account of your incomplete understanding you will unknowingly demean Lord Krishna/Vishnu.

I hate your ego and probably you hate mine. Still I request you to pay heed to this advice of mine and contemplate on the following verses for next few days and if possible desist from posting immediately as reaction.

Meditation on the verses and not bookish knowledge bring out the wisdom.

YV iii. 1. 10.

g ---- he returns, and with a verse addressed to Visnu reverences Soma;

Is Visnu different from Soma?

RV 6. HYMN LXIX. Indra-Visnu

2 Ye who inspire all hymns, Indra and Visnu, ye vessels who contain the Soma juices,

Are Indra and Visnu powerful without being full of King Soma?

RV 9 HYMN II. Soma Pavamana.

10 Winner of kine, Indu, art thou, winner of heroes, steeds, and strength Primeval Soul of sacrifice.

INDU/SOMA IS PROCLAIMED BY RIG VEDA AS THE PRIMEVAL SOUL OF SACRIFICE

Now let us see what Lord Krishna says:

Aksharam brahma paramam swabhaavo’dhyaatmamuchyate;

Bhootabhaavodbhavakaro visargah karmasamjnitah.

The Blessed Lord said:

8.3 . Brahman is the Imperishable, the Supreme; His essential nature is called Self-knowledge; the offering (to the gods) which causes existence and manifestation of beings and which also sustains them is called action.

Adibhootam ksharo bhaavah purushashchaadidaivatam;

Adiyajno’hamevaatra dehe dehabhritaam vara.

8.4. Adibhuta (knowledge of the elements) pertains to My perishable Nature, and the Purusha is the Adidaiva; I alone am the Adiyajna here in this body, O best among the embodied (men)!

I ALONE AM THE ADIYAJNA HERE IN THIS BODY, O BEST AMONG THE EMBODIED (MEN)!

Lord Krishna is INDU – the adiyajna.

Lord Krishna says I am spoken of in the Vedas. But no one finds that; since He is million times spoken of, almost in every alternate verse.

1. HYMN XCI Soma.

1. Thou, Soma, art preeminent for wisdom; along the straightest path thou art our leader. Our wise forefathers by thy guidance, Indu, dealt out among the Gods their share of treasure.

-----

5 Thou, Soma, art the Lord of heroes, King, yea, Vrtra-slayer thou:

Thou art auspicious energy.

Who distributed the share of treasure to Gods?? Was it not Vishnu?

RV Book 9 HYMN VI. Soma Pavamana.

------

2 Pour hitherward, as Indra's Self, Indu, that gladdening stream of thine,

And send us coursers full of strength.

--------

August 8, 2005

Gauri mimaye (Gauri makes sound) making waters. She is one-footed, two footed, four footed, nine footed, or infinite with thousand eyes in the highest heaven.

August 8, 2005

8.HYMN XLVIII. Soma.

1. WISELY have I enjoyed the savoury viand, religious-thoughted, best to find out treasure,The food to which all Deities and mortals, calling it meath, gather themselves together.

2 Thou shalt be Aditi as thou hast entered within, appeaser of celestial anger.Indu, enjoying Indra's friendship, bring us - as a swift steed the car - forward to riches.

3 We have drunk Soma and become immortal; we have attained the light, the Gods discovered. Now what may foeman's malice do to harm us? What, O Immortal, mortal man's deception?

8 King Soma, favour us and make us prosper: we are thy devotees; of this be mindful.Spirit and power are fresh in us, O Indu give us not up unto our foeman's pleasure.

9 For thou hast settled in each joint, O Soma, aim of men's eyes and guardian of our bodies.When we offend against thine holy statutes, as a kind Friend, God, best of all, be gracious.

10 May I be with the Friend whose heart is tender, who, Lord of Bays! when quaffed will never harm me-

This Soma now deposited within me. For this, I pray for longer life to Indra.

11 Our maladies have lost their strength and vanished: they feared, and passed away into the darkness.

Soma hath risen in us, exceeding mighty, and we are come where men prolong existence.

12, Fathers, that Indu which our hearts have drunken, Immortal in himself, hath entered mortals.

So let us serve this Soma with oblation, and rest securely in his grace and favour.

2 Thou shalt be Aditi as thou hast entered within,

10 May I be with the Friend whose heart is tender, who, Lord of Bays! when quaffed will never harm me-

This Soma now deposited within me. For this, I pray for longer life to Indra.

August 8, 2005

HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas.

1. MAY powers auspicious come to us from every side, never deceived, unhindered, and victorious,

That the Gods ever may be with us for our gain, our guardians day by day unceasing in their care.

-----

10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son.

Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born.

August 9, 2005

Rg Veda 5-3-3

"By worshipping the feet of Visnu (VishnoRupamam - Trivikrama avatAr), Maruts wish to attain the bright and coloured(wonderful) Rudra position. Hence, Rudra too keeps the secret name in his heart."

Dear Atanu,

therefore 'Rudra' is a position which can be attained by worshipping Vishnu.

if u have anything to argue upon this mantra. do so. but do not just copy and paste some translation by Griffith.

the above translation given by me follows all the rules laid out in translating and interpreting Vedic mantras. the translation was made by a VishistAdvaita AchArya.

try to answer this verse if u can.

August 9, 2005

******the above translation given by me follows all the rules laid out in translating and interpreting Vedic mantras. the translation was made by a VishistAdvaita AchArya.*****

Hi, can you tell the difference please?

The reason why I want to go for a third party translation is, that each acharya is coloured by his own philosophy.

If one has to know the truth, one has to unlearn whatever has been learnt, and approach wih an opn mind.

And Unlearning is the most difficult thing to do.

And One should not go verse by verse, because the vedic seers in their visions might have seen the same reality in different forms.

August 9, 2005

Rg Veda 1.154.1

"Visnornukam vIryAni pravocham yah pArthhivAni vimame rajAMsi|

yo aska bhAyadhuttharaM sadhastham vichakramAnas tredhhorugAyah||"

word by word meaning:

Visnoh - Visnu's

vIryAni - brave deeds

nukam - briefly, fastly

pravocham - say

yah - That Visnu

pArthivAni - belonging to Prithvi, along with

rajAMsi - the worlds

(pArthivAni rajAmsi - the seven worlds(below) belonging to Prithvi/earth)

vimame - created

yah - That Visnu

sadhastham - crowded, occupied (by punyAtmAs )

uttharam - worlds above

askabhhAyath - created

urugAya - greatly praised

thredhha - three steps, three ways

vichakramAnah - measured(these worlds)

Meaning:

"Let me say to you the brave deeds of Visnu who created the seven worlds below - belonging to earth and who created the seven worlds above occupied and crowded with persons of good deeds and he who is greatly praised measured these worlds in three ways/steps."

therefore Visnu is the creator of everything.

August 9, 2005

Taittreya Aranyaka

1.8.2 to 1.8.5 - Praises Visnu

1.8.4

"amumAhu param mrityum| pavamanam tu madhyamam|

agnirevAvamo mrityuh| chandramAshchathuruchyathe||"

Meaning:

"This Visnu is called as Supreme samhAraka(param mrityum), VAyu(air) is the middle level samhAraka while Agni is the lower level samhAraka. Chandra(moon) is the fourth samhAraka."

August 9, 2005

Taittreya Aranyaka

1.8.3

"kim tad visnor balamAhuh kA dhIpthi kim parAyanam|

eko yadhdhhAra yadhdhevah rejathI rodhasI ubhhe||

vAthAdhvisnorbalamAhuh aksharAdhdhIpthiruchyate|

tripadhAdh dhhArayadhdhevah yad visnor ekam utthamam||

1.8.4

agnayo vAyavashchaiva etadasya parAyanam||"

Meaning:

"What is said about Visnu's strength, His brightness and His Supreme abode. Divine Visnu Himself all alone bears the heaven and earth with that strength.Visnu's strength is said to greater than that of Vayu. His brightness is said to be greater than that of Agni. Residing in Moksha Loka(TripadhAt), Visnu who is the ONE SUPREME(ekam utthamam) bears the world(heaven and earth), Agnis and Vayus and that Moksha Loka(Tripadha)is His Supreme Abode."

August 9, 2005

the differences cannot be expalined in a small post.

anyway, ur idea that the translations of acharyas are coloured is not a reason to go behind an Englishman's translation for the Westerners do not know the rules for translation of Mantras and hence they mostly misinterpret which means that Vedic verses become contradictory.

Most translations of Various Acharyas go together. the philosophical interpretations may change but they do not hinder in anyway the identification of Brahman.

therefore, refer to any translation made by an authority in Vedas and not to some unknown outsiders.

for ur consideration, Vedic mantras must be translated according to the various Nyayas governing them. without which the translations lose their status and the translators their integrity.

August 10, 2005

Shatapatha Brahmana:

1.3.2.

púruSo vaí yajñah- ...

Meaning:

"Parama Purusha is called Yagna"

This Parama Purusha is clearly identified by Taittriya aranyaka as Lord Visnu.

Taittriya Aranyaka: Purusha Sukta

3.13.2

"hrIshcha te lakshmIshcha patnyow"

Meaning:

"Hree(Bhumi) and Lakshmi are His wives"

then Yajur Veda(Tai.Samhita) 1-7-4-4

"yagno vai Vishnuh| yagna evAnthathah prathithishttathi||"

Meaning:

"Yagna is called Visnu. Yagna alone remains at the end(anthatha)."

now, from Shatapatha, it becomes clear that Visnu is called as Yagna(sacrifice). also the vice versa is said in Taittriya Samhita. therefore it is clear that they are similar.

then T.Sam. says that Yagna(i.e. Visnu) alone remains in the end. thus it is Visnu alone who remains during the MahApralaya.

Similarly, it has already been proved that Visnu alone remained in the beginning. and that Visnu created the universe.

Thus going by 'yatho vA ...... tad brahmah'(Bhrgu Valli of Taittreya Upanishad), Visnu is the creator, He is the protector and he is the SamhAraka.

Thus, Visnu is the Brahman(Supreme God).

August 11, 2005

*****Atanu blabbers on forever

but do not just copy and paste some translation by Griffith.******

I know that it is a sin to add or delete words from sacred verses like you do. So I just copy and paste.

And Griffith is at least independent and unbiased, unlike your sources who fit translations into their mental concepts. And then hurl abuses when their altered verses fail to fit other verses. Ravi you are more dangerous and malicious than some Muslims and Christians. You are willing to kill off Isha in favour of your ego.

****

Rg Veda 5-3-3

"By worshipping the feet of Visnu (VishnoRupamam - Trivikrama avatAr), Maruts wish to attain the bright and coloured(wonderful) Rudra position. Hence, Rudra too keeps the secret name in his heart."

**************

EXCELLENT! YOU ACCEPT THAT VISHNU IS WORSHIPPED TO ATTAIN RUDRA? EH? YOUR MALICIOUS TRANSLATIONS ACTUALLY FAIL YOU.

Two independent translations are given below:

Translation 1

5.3.3 The Maruts deck their beauty for thy glory, yea, Rudra! for thy birth fair, brightly-coloured. That which was fixed as Visnu's loftiest station-therewith the secret of the Cows thou guardest.

Translation 2

5.3.3. For the glory of thee, O Rudra, the life powers make bright thy birth into a richly manifold beauty. When that highest step [[The supreme plane of the three.]] of Vishnu is founded within, thou guardest by it the secret name of the Ray cows.

There is no Rudra status spoken of anywhere. It is the opposite: Vishnu’s highest station is spoken of numerous times. EKAM ADVAITAM SIVAM IS KNOWN VERY WELL AS THE TURIYATTA IN THE UPANISHADS.

And there RUDRA AND VISHNU ARE ONE.

*******************

1.3.2.

púruSo vaí yajñah- ...

"Parama Purusha is called Yagna"

This Parama Purusha is clearly identified by Taittriya aranyaka as Lord Visnu.

****************

Laugh: púruSo becomes Parama Purusha in your translation (whenever it refers to Lord Vishnu). We know:

Mahanarayana Up.

sarvo vai rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|

purusho vai rudrassan maho namo astu|

visvam bhUtam bhuvanam chitram bahudhA jAtham

jAyamAnanchayat|sarvo hyesha rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|"

"All is truly Rudra. Salutations to that Rudra. Purusha is truly Rudra. Salutations to Him again and again. all this universe, all these entities, all the wondrous worlds that were variedly born or being born - all that is verily this Rudra alone. to that Rudra, we offer our salutations."

Namah Rudra Visnave

Rudra is also the protector of Yagna also as below:

YV i. 8. 6.

C THOU ART THE PROTECTION OF CATTLE, THE PROTECTION OF THE SACRIFICE; GIVE ME PROTECTION.

D RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

****************

then Yajur Veda(Tai.Samhita) 1-7-4-4

"yagno vai Vishnuh| yagna evAnthathah prathithishttathi||"

"Yagna is called Visnu. Yagna alone remains at the end(anthatha)."

**************

You fail with your own logic. "Yagna is called Vishnu" -- but is not Vishnu. The reality is Soma.

FROM RIG VEDA SAMHITA WE KNOW THAT SOMA WHO IS THE BEGETTER HOLY HYMNS, SURYA, INDRA, VISHNU, EARTH, AND HEAVEN IS THE PRIMEVAL YAGNA. VISHNU IS GENERATED FROM THAT PRIMEVAL YAGNA.

Book 9.2. Soma Pavamana.

10 Winner of kine, Indu, art thou, winner of heroes, steeds, and strength

Primeval Soul of sacrifice.

RV 9.96 Soma Pavamana

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven:

Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

FATHER OF HOLY HYMNS, SOMA FLOWS ONWARD THE FATHER OF THE EARTH, FATHER OF HEAVEN:

Reconcile. Reconcile. Reconcile. The reality is Soma-Rudra.

Or finish your karma then you will be able to reconcile the whole of the Vedas.

August 11, 2005

But for me Vishnu is Supreme same as Shiva.

Lord is ONE. Veda Samhita is clear. That ONE says "I" in all beings. This "I" is the ONE undivided. This Self is sivam.

“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; -------

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati with Soma in mind; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

The verse clearly states of identity.

August 11, 2005

once again baseless blabberings are posted by Atanu.

*********************************************************************

I know that it is a sin to add or delete words from sacred verses like you do. So I just copy and paste.

**********************************************************************

but following unvedic explanation is what u r doing.

the vedas cannot be understood by those who r unvedic and ignorant. u follow the translations of such an ignorant one.

shame on u.

*****************************************************

Two independent translations are given below:

******************************************************

what do u mean by 'independent'? even an Englishman is not independent in his translations. they either follow to some extent Advaita or just give a wrong interpretation which will make Vedas as a collection of contradictions. the later suited their missionary activities. so don't blabber the same statement once again.

*************************************************************************

Laugh: púruSo becomes Parama Purusha in your translation (whenever it refers to Lord Vishnu).

***********************************************************************

the word 'Purusha' refers to the Purusha of Purusha Sukta.

it is due to the respect for Him is Purusha is called as 'Parama Purusha'. first learn the basics of Vedic translation and interpretation.

I had already quoted from Purusha Sukta that the Purusha is Lord Visnu(Lakshmipati).

but u keep on blabbering forever.

'Sarvo vai rudra......' was clearly explained.

'eko hi rudro...' was also clearly explained by Kannadasan.

the same logic also applies for 'sarvo vai..'. but u fail to understand.

throw the veil off ur mind and u will understand.

**************************************************

Rudra is also the protector of Yagna also as below

**************************************************

shows ur ignorance. this does not mean in anysense tht Rudra is superior to Visnu.

***********************************************************************

You fail with your own logic. "Yagna is called Vishnu" -- but is not Vishnu. The reality is Soma.

**********************************************************************

yes. Yagna is called Visnu. but Yagna is not Visnu. Visnu is the Supreme Lord. Yagna is called so because it is as great as the Supreme Lord(Sayana says so).

Visnu is called Yagna(purusho vai yagnah).

Yajur Veda (Tai.Sam.)

6.1.4

"VaishnavIm rcham anubrUyAt|

yagno vai vishnuryagne naiva yagnam santhanothi||"

Meaning:

"Let him(Yajamana) recite Rcs praising Visnu. Yagna is called Visnu. By Yagna, Yagna is worshipped well(santhanothi)."

note it, dear atanu. Yagna is worshipped by Yagna. the deity worshipped is Visnu.

Reasons:

1. 'purusho vai yagnah'

hence Visnu is the One who is called Yagna.

2. 'vaishnavIm rcham anubrUyAt'

also Rcs in praise of Visnu is asked to be recited. Hence, the Deity is Visnu.

Soma refers to the Soma juice and not to any deity. Soma is praised as Indra's drink(already pointed by Kannadasan). so don't keep on repeating ur defeated arguments.

The Vedas, nowhere, call Rudra as 'Parambrahmah' which is the exclusive term to define the Supreme Lord. nor do they call him 'paramah'.

they call him only as 'para'. 'para' means 'Superior' and not the Most Supreme.

so, ur arguments are just baseless.

'parama' means 'paro mA yasmAth sa paramah'.

'parama' = That which has nothing superior to it is Parama.

Rudra is neither called 'Parama' nor 'Parambrhmah'.

But Visnu is called so.

Aitareya BrAhmana:

1.1.1

"agnir vai devAnAm avamo visnu paramas...."

YajurVeda(Tai. Samhita)

5.5.1

"Agnir avamo devatAnAm Visnuh paramah"

Thus Visnu is 'Parama'.

then MahaNArAyana Upanishad says

"nArAyana parambrahmah| tattvam nArayanah parah||

nArAyana parojyothir| AtmA nArAyanah parah||"

Mahopanishad says

"nArAyanah parambrahmah|"

SubAla Upanishad says

"esha sarva bhUtAntarAtmA apahatapApmA divyo deva eko nArAyanah"

Narayana Upanishad says

"nishkalo niranjano nirAkyAt shuddho deva eko nArAyanah| na dvitIyosti kashchit|"

not even once is Rudra called as 'Parama' or 'Parambrahmah' or 'paratattva' or 'Paramatma' or 'Apahatapapma' or 'sarva bhUtAntarAtmA'.

but still u keep on repeating that Rudra is the Supreme God. sheer Ignorance.

*********************************************************************

finish your karma then you will be able to reconcile the whole of the Vedas.

***********************************************************************

the above line fits only for u.

August 11, 2005

Rudra himself says that he is 'anapahatapApma'(uncleansed of sins).

nothing more is needed to prove that Rudra is not The Supreme God.

also the argument that every deity is the same is proved wrong by 'agnir.....visnu paramas'.

also, the Rg Veda clearly says that Soma is Juice and not a deity. as Soma is used to appease the deities during sacrifice, it is praised a lot.

Rg Veda:

8.2.23

"jyeSThena sotarindrAya somaM vIrAya shakrAya |

bharA piban naryAya ||"

Meaning:

"O brewer! Before everyone give Soma to Indra, the Courageous and the Ruler(sakra), so that he may drink for he is the friend of men."

Note: Soma is offered to Indra to drink.

8.2.25

"panyam panyamit sotAra A dhAvata madyAya |"

somaM vIraya shUraya ||"

Meaning:

"O brewers! brew/make the Soma juice well, let it(each and avery cup) be excellent, so that the Courageous, brave Indra may enjoy ."

however u argue, the Supremacy of Visnu cannot be proved wrong neither can Rudra be called the Supreme God for Rudra is a Jiva as clearly expounded by Vedas.

so, if u wish, keep on parroting ur defeated arguments till u feel tired.

August 11, 2005

***************************************************************************

RV 6. HYMN LXIX. Indra-Visnu

2 Ye who inspire all hymns, Indra and Visnu, ye vessels who contain the Soma juices,

Are Indra and Visnu powerful without being full of King Soma?

***************************************************************************

this is wrong translation. the fact is that the hymn says that the veesels contain Soma juice and that they are ready for Indra and Visnu to drink.

this is clarified by the verse

6.69.7

"indrAviSNU pibataM madhvo asya somasya dasrA jaTharaM pRNethAm |

A vAmandhAMsi madirANyagmannupa brahmANi shRNutaM havaM me ||"

Meaning:

"O Indra and Visnu, Deities of Great Deeds! Drink your Soma juice from this vessel. You have got tasty alcoholic(pleasing/exhilarating) Soma juice ( it has reached You by sacrifice). Satisfied by it, please hear our prayers and grant boons."

August 12, 2005

It may be true as Lord Ravi proclaims so.

****

once again baseless blabberings are posted by Atanu.

-------

shame on u.

-----------

so don't blabber the same statement once again

************

I accept the shame on behalf of you – for your anger and outbursts.

I do not understand why you reply to the baseless blabbering?

************

the word 'Purusha' refers to the Purusha of Purusha Sukta.

it is due to the respect for Him is Purusha is called as 'Parama Purusha'. first learn the basics of Vedic translation and interpretation.

but u keep on blabbering forever.

'Sarvo vai rudra......' was clearly explained.

'eko hi rudro...' was also clearly explained by Kannadasan.

***************

Yes, Yes.

And Vedas are clear about Purusa:

RV HYMN XC. Purusa.

1. A THOUSAND heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet. On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.

-------------

YV

namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe |

atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH ||

NILGRIVA IS the sahasrAxAya PURUSA

If, Hri and Shri are consorts of Purusa then they are consorts of Nilgriva, since Nilgriva alone is visnave Visnu. Rama devi (Shri) is under the control of eternal linga rupi bhagwan Sambhu.

Brahma Samhita (Vaisnav literature) clearly mentions it.

SRI BRAHMA SAMHITA Book 1 TEXT 8.

niyatih sa rama devi

tat-priya tad-vasam tada

tal-lingam bhagavan sambhur

jyoti-rupah sanatanah

ya yonih sapara saktih

kamo bijam mahad hareh

Devi is the desire, the seed, and the faculty of cognition of Hari – Mahat. And She, the Sakti – the regulator (Niyati) is under the control of lingam rupi eternal Bhagwan Shambhu. She is the potency of supreme Lord Hareh.

Your explanation also means that Visnu is a name of that purusa and is not that purusa actually.

And the following makes it clear that there is no second to Rudra who is vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH

eko hi rudro na dvitiiyaaya tasthu\-

rya imaa.nllokaaniishata iishaniibhiH .

pratyaN^ janaastishhThati saJNchukochaantakaale

sa.nsR^ijya vishvaa bhuvanaani gopaaH .. 2..

Jabalyupanishhad of the Sama Veda is true.

sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH

sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH |

I do not want to add indefinitely but Paingala also is true.

iishaadhishhThitaavaraNashaktito rajodriktaa mahadaakhyaa vikshepashaktiraasiit.h . tatpratibimbita.n yattaddhiraNyagarbhachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa mahattattvaabhimaanii

spashhTaaspashhTavapurbhavati . hiraNyagarbhaadhishhThitavikshepashaktitastamodriktaaha~Nkaaraabhidhaa

sthuulashaktiraasiit.h . tatpratibimbita.n

yattadviraaTachaitanyamaasiit.h . sa tadabhimaanii spashhTavapuH

sarvasthuulapaalako vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho bhavati .

1-5.FROM THE POWER OF CONCEALMENT CONTROLLED BY ISHA AROSE THE POWER OF PROJECTION CALLED MAHAT. WHAT IS REFLECTED IN IT IS THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF HIRANYAGARBHA. HE HAS THE CONCEIT OF OWNERSHIP AS REGARDS MAHAT AND HAS A BODY PARTLY MANIFEST AND PARTLY UNMANIFEST.

I-6. FROM THE PROJECTIVE POWER CONTROLLED BY HIRANYAGARBHA AROSE THE GROSS POWER CALLED THE EGO, WITH THE PREPONDERANCE OF TAMAS. WHAT WAS REFLECTED IN IT WAS THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF VIRAT. THAT VIRAT WHO HAS CONCEIT IN THE EGO, A MANIFEST BODY, AND IS THE CHIEF PERSON, VISHNU IS THE PROTECTOR OF ALL GROSS THINGS. FROM THAT SELF (VIRAT) AROSE ETHER; FROM THE ETHER, AIR; FROM AIR, FIRE; FROM FIRE, WATER; FROM WATER, EARTH. THESE FIVE ROOT-ELEMENTS ARE COMPOSED OF THE THREE GUNAS.

End of Citation

“THAT VIRAT WHO HAS CONCEIT IN THE EGO, A MANIFEST BODY, AND IS THE CHIEF PERSON, VISHNU”

sarvasthuulapaalako vishhNuH pradhaanapurushho bhavati

**********

“Rudra is also the protector of Yagna also as below”

shows ur ignorance. this does not mean in anysense tht Rudra is superior to Visnu.

**************

Did I claim superiority of any one? You are imagining. When Upanishads say: “That is full and This is also full. Full taken from the full remains full”, then where is the question of superiority? But there is question of cause and effect.

Question of superiority just reflects your inferiority complex.

*********

yes. Yagna is called Visnu. but Yagna is not Visnu. Visnu is the Supreme Lord. Yagna is called so because it is as great as the Supreme Lord(Sayana says so).

**************

You say: Yagna is called so because it is as great as the Supreme Lord(Sayana says so).

Yes, I agree. Yagna is as great as the Supreme Lord, who protects the yagna (jiva).

*********

Soma refers to the Soma juice and not to any deity. Soma is praised as Indra's drink(already pointed by Kannadasan). so don't keep on repeating ur defeated arguments.

*********

I told you. Your mind is full of images of defeat and so your posts reflect again and again the questions of superiority, defeat etc.

That SOMA is primeval sacrifice is told by Rig Veda. Do you mean to say that Rig is defeated? You are evil minded.

******

Rudra is neither called 'Parama' nor 'Parambrhmah'.

But Visnu is called so.

************

Sorry. Vishnu is called Param Padam and not Param. Whereas Rudra is called ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.

***********

Aitareya BrAhmana:

1.1.1

"agnir vai devAnAm avamo visnu paramas...."

************

Yes, Param among the Devas. No doubt about it.

But you know the problem? Do you know that there seems to be another Agni who is not just a devo but is Indra, Visnu, and Brahma?

RV Book 2 HYMN 1

tvamagna indro vRSabhaH satAmasi tvaM viSNururugAyo namasyaH

tvaM brahmA rayivid brahmaNas pate tvaM vidhartaHsacase purandhyA

3. O Fire, thou art Indra the Bull of all that are and thou art wide-moving Vishnu, adorable. O Master of the Word, thou art Brahma, the finder of the Riches: O Fire, who sustains each and all, closely thou keep company of the Goddess of the many thoughts.

tvamagna indro vRSabhaH satAmasi tvaM viSNururugAyo namasyaH

I AM SORRY BOSS.

**************

then MahaNArAyana Upanishad says

"nArAyana parambrahmah| tattvam nArayanah parah||

nArAyana parojyothir| AtmA nArAyanah parah||"

**************

I know. But the same Upanishad clarifies beyond doubt who is that param brahman.

sarvo vai rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|

purusho vai rudrassan maho namo astu|

visvam bhUtam bhuvanam chitram bahudhA jAtham

jAyamAnanchayat|sarvo hyesha rudras tasmai rudrAya namo astu|"

************

SubAla Upanishad says

"esha sarva bhUtAntarAtmA apahatapApmA divyo deva eko nArAyanah"

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Yes. Narayanah is eko Rudra na dvitiya tastu , who else is Esha?

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also, the Rg Veda clearly says that Soma is Juice and not a deity. as Soma is used to appease the deities during sacrifice, it is praised a lot.

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Only very foolish and childish people believe that drinking a Juice, Indra becomes ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.

You are such a foolish person, who has no spirituality. All your citations are acceptable to me. But can you accept the followings without abusing?

RV 9.005.07 I invoke the two divine priests, the two deities who behold men-- the pure-flowing (Soma) is radiant and the showerer (of benefits). [The pure-flowing Soma is radiant: perhaps, an identification of Soma with Indra, just as in the next verse, Indu (i.e. Soma) is identified with Indra.

9.005.09 I invoke Tvas.t.a_, the first-born, the protector, the leader; the golden-coloured pure-flowing Indu is Indra, the showerer, the lord of all creatures.

NOTE: BY THE WAY, THIS TRANSLATION IS FROM A VAISNAV SITE.

Can you identify the ONE WITH THE THOUSAND EYES?

RV 9. 60. Soma Pavamana.

1. SING forth and laud with sacred song most active Pavamana, laud Indu who sees with thousand eyes.

2 Thee who hast thousand eyes to see, bearer of thousand burthens, they Have filtered through the fleecy cloth.

AND YOU FOOLISH FELLOW, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT A MERE JUICE IS THE PROGENITOR OF EARTH, HEAVEN, SURYA, AGNI, VISNU, AND INDRA?

Book 9 RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

Do not demean your intelligence to support your foolish ego. Rig Veda is clear (only your ego, sticking to false beliefs, obstructs the truth).

SOMA IS THE PRIMEVAL SOUL OF SACRIFICE --- THE ADYAGNA. YOU ARE DEMEANING LORD VISHNU ONLY.

Book 9 HYMN II. Soma Pavamana.

10 Winner of kine, Indu, art thou, winner of heroes, steeds, and strength

Primeval Soul of sacrifice.

Sama Veda 19 Soma Pavamana

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.

Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

2. Brahman of Gods, the leader of the poets, Rishi of sages, chief of savage creatures,

Falcon amid the vultures, axe of forests, over the cleansing sieve goes Soma singing.

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however u argue, the Supremacy of Visnu cannot be proved wrong neither can Rudra be called the Supreme God for Rudra is a Jiva as clearly expounded by Vedas.

*****************

I AM NOT ARGUING AT ALL. I AM ENJOYING THE OPPORTUNITY. Oh yes. Visnu is parama since there is nothing but parama. Every other thing is just ego – ahamkara.

BUT THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT, EVEN THE SACRIFICER BECOMES VISHNU.

YV i. 7. 5.

------ Headed by Visnu the gods won these worlds by the metres so as to be irrecoverable; in that he takes the steps of Visnu the sacrificer becoming Visnu wins these worlds by the metres so as to be irrecoverable.

“the sacrificer becoming Visnu wins these worlds”

ANOTHER PROBLEM IS THAT AGNI (which resides in the hridaya) IS VISNU.

“tvamagna indro vRSabhaH satAmasi tvaM viSNururugAyo namasyaH -----“

------

3. O Fire, thou art Indra the Bull of all that are and thou art wide-moving Vishnu, adorable.

FURTHER COMPLICATIONS ARISE. SINCE AGNI IS THE PROTECTION OF THE SACRIFICE (VISNU).

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Prisan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

MORE PROBLEMS. SOME ONE ELSE IS THE HEART OF VISHNU.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; may I to-day accomplish the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the cup of the speckled ones; thou art the heart of Visnu,

PROBLEMS KEEP PILING UP. VISNU SINGS AND LAUDS INDRA.

RV 10. 113. Indra

1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong.

2 This majesty of his Visnu extols and lauds, making the meath flow forth with Might.

Sama Veda XI Indra

2. O Indra, heaven and earth augment thy manly force and thy renown:The waters and the mountains stir and urge thee on:

3. Vishnu, Varuna, Mitra in the lofty ruling power sing thy praise:In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

AND YOU KNOW? THE GREATEST PROBLEM IS THAT THE GREAT INDRA IS GREAT WHEN HE DRINKS SOMA.

Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra.

1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he.

20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this.

AND YOU KNOW? THE GREAT INDRA COMES FORTH UNDER THE LOFTY LEADERSHIP OF RUDRA.

YV iv. i. 2.

------.

d In each need more strong,

In each contest, we invoke,

As friends, Indra to aid us.

e Hastening [1] come hither, trampling the enemy,

Come with wondrous skill from the leadership of Rudra;

COME WITH WONDROUS SKILL FROM THE LEADERSHIP OF RUDRA

AND YOU KNOW? RUDRA, THE PROTECTOR OF THE SACRIFICE (YAGNA) DOES NOT YIELD TO A SECOND.

YV i. 8. 6.

c Thou art the protection of cattle, the protection of the sacrifice; give me protection.

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

YOU KNOW? RUDRA HAS ENTERED ALL BEINGS.

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu

Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds

AND YOU KNOW? AGNI, IS ALL GODS.

YV iv. 4. 7.

a Thou art the furtherer; thou art the maker of wide room; thou art the eastern; thou art the zenith; thou art the sitter in the atmosphere, sit on the atmosphere.

b Thou art the sitter on the waters; thou art the sitter on the hawk thou art the sitter on the vulture; thou art the sitter on the eagle; thou art the sitter on the vault.

c In the wealth of earth I place thee; in the wealth of the atmosphere I place thee; in the wealth of the sky I place thee; in the wealth of the quarters I place thee; giver of wealth I place thee in wealth.

d Protect my expiration; protect my inspiration; protect my cross-breathing [1]; protect my life; protect all my life; protect the whole of my life.

e O Agni, thy highest name, the heart, Come let us join together,

Be thou, O Agni, among those of the five races.

f (Thou art) the Yavas, the Ayavas, the courses, the helpers, the Sabda, the ocean, the firm one.

O AGNI, THY HIGHEST NAME, THE HEART, COME LET US JOIN TOGETHER

AND REMEMBER.

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu

Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds

SARVA VAI RUDRA.

Namo Rudraya Vishnave

RAVI YOU HAVE CHURNED THE OCEAN AND RAISED KALKUTA. TILL YOU KNOW THE AMRTA – SOMA (VISNU), YOU WILL YOURSELF DIE BY THE KALKUTA.

THE DAY YOU REALIZE SOMA, SHIVA WOULD TAKE THE KALKUTA AND HAND OVER IMMORTALITY (SOMA) TO YOU.

AND SIVA-VISNU is ONE.

OM NAMAH SIVAYYA

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Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

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