Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

June 24, 2005

Dear

Who needs to convince BINDU et al? If Bindu et al were not there then who would have seen:

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH

******How about Devi Sukta in which Lakshmi Devi says: "I make whosoever I like Ugra (or Rudra or Siva), BrahmA, a Rishi or a wise man; I bend the bow of Rudra to slay the enemies of Lord (Narayana)"? Here it states clearly that Rudra gets his power from Devi. Does the list have Vishnu? Nah!********

Aah! HE FIRST ADDS: “Lakshmi Devi says”. Let him do it. He is correct. Devi is ONE.

THEN HE ADDS “----- to slay the enemies of Lord (Narayana)"? Whereas, the verse is “I bend the bow of Rudra to slay the enemies of devotion". He tries hard to create a difference between Rudra and Narayana.

THEN, HE MAKES A LORDLY CLAIM “HERE IT STATES CLEARLY THAT RUDRA GETS HIS POWER FROM DEVI”. I ASK: WHERE IS THIS STATEMENT IN THE VERSE ON VAK IN RIG VEDA BOOK 10?

If I say, “fingers help one to tie shoe laces”, does it mean THAT FINGERS ARE THE MASTERS?

If I say, “legs help one to be mobile”, does it mean THAT THE LEGS ARE THE MASTERS?

As has been shown above several times, some writers constantly change their translations. These are not standard and created by these writers only to suit their ego.

The Devi Suktam from Rig Veda is cited below:

RV Book 10 HYMN CXXV. Vak.

1. I TRAVEL with the Rudras and the Vasus, with the Adityas and All-Gods I wander.

I hold aloft both Varuna and Mitra, Indra and Agni, and the Pair of Asvins.

2 I cherish and sustain high-swelling Soma, and Tvastar I support, Pusan, and Bhaga.

I load with wealth the zealous sacrificer who pours the juice and offers his oblation

5 1, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome.

I make the man I love exceeding mighty, make him a sage, a Rsi, and a Brahman.

6 I BEND THE BOW FOR RUDRA THAT HIS ARROW MAY STRIKE AND SLAY THE HATER OF DEVOTION. I rouse and order battle for the people, and I have penetrated Earth and Heaven.

THE ABOVE TRANSLATION IS FULLY CONSISTENT WITH THE VERSES REPRODUCED BELOW.

Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas.

10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born

RV book 1 HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas (ASIYA VAMIYA SUKTA)

41 Forming the water-floods, the buffalo hath sounded, one-footed or two-footed or four-footed, SHE, GAURI, WHO HATH BECOME EIGHT-FOOTED OR HATH GOT NINE FEET, THE THOU SAND-SYLLABLED IN THE SUBLIMEST HEAVEN.

42 From her, Gauri, descend in streams the seas of water; thereby the world's four regions have their being, Thence flows the imperishable flood and thence the universe hath life.

---- SHE, GAURI, WHO HATH BECOME ------. GAURI HAS BECOME ALL. SHE IS THE VAK.

DEVI UPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE ATHARVA-VEDA

5. I uphold Soma, Tvastir, Pusan and Bhaga, The wide-stepping Vishnu, Brahma, Prajapati.

8. Those gods said: Salutation to the Goddess, the great Goddess ! To Siva, the auspicious, salutation, for ever more. To blessed Prakriti, salutation ! Ever to Her we bow.

11. To holy Siva, to Daksha’s daughter, To Aditi and Sarasvati, To Skanda’s Mother, Vishnu’s Power, To Night of death by Brahma lauded, We render obeisance.

12. Know we, Great Lakshmi, Goddess of good Fortune; On all fulfilment do we meditate. May the Goddess inspire us !

20. Seed all-powerful of the Goddess’ mantra, Is sky, conjoined with ‘i’ and fire, With crescent moon adorned.

DEVI'S (Gauri /Laksmi) SEED IS THE CRESCENT MOON ADORNED GOD, LORD SHIVA.

AND DEVI UPHOLDS SOMA, TVASTIR, PUSAN AND BHAGA, THE WIDE-STEPPING VISHNU, BRAHMA, PRAJAPATI.

HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas. (ASIYA VAMIYA SUKTA)

34 I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is the centre of the world, I ask thee. I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of highest heaven where Speech abideth.

35 This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.

THE STALLION'S SEED PROLIFIC IS THE SOMA; THIS BRAHMAN THE HIGHEST HEAVEN WHERE SPEECH ABIDETH.

So, Soma (Sa-Uma) is the highest Brahman where speech abides. And beyond Soma? Rudra alone. Since, Rudra uses Soma as socket of his bow.

When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Rudra-Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.)

And no harm to repeat some verses again and again since reading or reciting (and writing) such verses are auspicious activities. Without skipping, ONE should read these.

RUDRA IS DEVI AND VIRYPEBHYO AND VISVARUPA.

Yajur Veda

Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo |

Salutations to you who are in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses.

Namo virupebhyo vishvarupe bhyascha vo namo

Salutations to you who assume grotesque and monstrous forms (virupebhyo) and other diverse shapes (vishvarupe).

AND RUDRA IS CIPIVISTA (VISNU)

YV iv. 5. 5.

.

F HOMAGE TO HIM WHO HAUNTETH THE MOUNTAINS, AND TO ÇIPIVISTA.

WHO HAS THOUSAND EYES? ----- PURUSHA OF COURSE.

e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows

WHERE IN VEDAS SUCH A THOUSAND EYED BEING IS LAUDED? ---- IN SATA RUDRIYA OF COURSE.

e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows.

And SOME ONE ELSE IS THE HEART OF LORD VISHNU.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; ------ thou art the heart of Visnu,

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Prisan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

YV ii. 1. 3.

The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf (the beast – the ego), he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds.

AND SOME ONE ELSE IS STEPS AND STRIDES OF VISNU

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

Whereas Rudra is blissful father, un-decaying, self dependent, with thousand eyes.

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the SELF-DEPENDENT GOD with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

SHIVA IS THE ROOT, GAURI THE POWER, VISHNU THE GATIM.

OM NAMAH SIVAYYA

BinduMadhav · June 24, 2005

Atanu wrote:

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Who needs to convince BINDU et al?

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Atanu Bhaiyya,

I have always been convinced. After reading all your and Srinivasan's posts, I am more than fully convinced and I have composed a little piece here.

NArAyanAt Paramam Gatim NAsti.

NArAyan VAsudEva tvam hi Parama Brahmo Asi.

VAsudEvasya PUjAm KarishyE, Na Rudrasya.

RudradEvo VAsudEvasya Parama Bhaktah iti Vedah.

Iti BinduMAdhavopanishad

Om ShAntih ShAntih ShAntih

Harih Om!

Translation:

There is no Higher Goal than Sriman NArAyana

Oh NArAyana VAsudEva, You alone are Supreme Brahman

I shall do VAsudEva's PUja, not Rudra's

Vedas declare: "Rudra is NArAyana's Greatest Devotee"

So says BinduMAdhavopanishad

Om ShAntih ShAnti ShAntih

Hari Om!

Bhaiyya - Please do not take this personally.

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So, Soma (Sa-Uma) is the highest Brahman where speech abides. And beyond Soma? Rudra alone. Since, Rudra uses Soma as socket of his bow.

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Uh Oh! Now you are differentiating between Rudra and Sa-UmA (Shiva). Not only that, you are placing Shiva at a lower level than Rudra. Does not ShankarAcharya think (ShivAnanda Lahari) that Shiva appoints individual souls to the place of Brahmatva, Vishnutva or Rudratva?

Big heirarchical issue here. We need to resolve this first!

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SHIVA IS THE ROOT, GAURI THE POWER, VISHNU THE GATIM.

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So Vishnu is the Supreme Goal, right? Obviously, The Supreme One's abode is the Supreme Goal. So thank you for acknowledging that Vishnu is the Supreme Lord.

June 24, 2005

You have insulted protector of Visnu. You have insulted Visnu.

Kaivalyopanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda

25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares. Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self.

****---------

VAsudEvasya PUjAm KarishyE, Na Rudrasya.

Iti BinduMAdhavopanishad

-----

Translation:

I shall do VAsudEva's PUja, not Rudra's

So says BinduMAdhavopanishad

Bhaiyya - Please do not take this personally.*********

Oh. Nice. What insolence? Your little piece is that only, a little piece. Which Veda your muck is based on? You have insulted the universal guru. You will pay for your insolence.

“I shall do VAsudEva's PUja, not Rudra's”, this shows your bloated ego and ignorance. As if you are superior to Rudra. You seem to know more than the revered sages. You do not know that Vasudeva’s reality is Rudra – the mystic agni – unmanifest, super soul.

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Pusan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; ------ thou art the heart of Visnu,

Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9. (From Sata Rudriya)

p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

Narad Pancharatra:

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF HARI.

********

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So, Soma (Sa-Uma) is the highest Brahman where speech abides. And beyond Soma? Rudra alone. Since, Rudra uses Soma as socket of his bow.

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Uh Oh! Now you are differentiating between Rudra and Sa-UmA (Shiva). Not only that, you are placing Shiva at a lower level than Rudra. Does not ShankarAcharya think (ShivAnanda Lahari) that Shiva appoints individual souls to the place of Brahmatva, Vishnutva or Rudratva?

Big heirarchical issue here. We need to resolve this first!

*********

SA-UMA is not Shiva but is differentiated Shiva (Uma-Mahesvara). Ha. Ha. You do not know that SOMA is the socket of the bow of Rudra? And Visnu-Agni the arrow.

tasyA agniranIkamAsItsomaH shalyo vishhNustejanaM varuNaH parNAni iti

You are puerile and you will remain one with hierarchy occupying your mind. I remember you saying that you have studied Sata Rudriya. Actually you have not read even any part of this thread also. You can never see the ONE LORD (that is my guarantee).

The powerful and the power is ONE. The Cause and Effect is ONE. Rudra and Devi is ONE. On issue of VAK, ONE appears as two. On play of VAK – Visvarupa appears. Rudra-Soma- Visnu is ONE.

Rudra is DEVI.

Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo |

Salutations to you in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses.

When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.)

Maha Narayana Up.

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, --------

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

And all devas are his weapons alone.

tasyA agniranIkamAsItsomaH shalyo vishhNustejanaM varuNaH parNAni iti |

Vedas clearly differentiate the root and the effect; the self dependent and the dependent, as below.

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, the body of the All-gods; ------ thou art the heart of Visnu,

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! To wisdom, to thought, to Agni, hail! To consecration, to penance, to Agni, hail! To Sarasvati, to Pusan, to Agni, hail!

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

YV ii. 1. 3.

The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf (the beast – the ego), he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds.

AND SOME ONE ELSE IS STEPS AND STRIDES OF VISNU

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God ---

2 He through his lordship thinks in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power.

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH

*************

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SHIVA IS THE ROOT, GAURI THE POWER, VISHNU THE GATIM.

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So Vishnu is the Supreme Goal, right? Obviously, The Supreme One's abode is the Supreme Goal. So thank you for acknowledging that Vishnu is the Supreme Lord.

*****************

Well well. Others have unwittingly shown what is parama dhama:

nR^isimha-tApanIya Upanishad :

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt.h

tamasaH paramaM dhAma. You people, as habit, abuse the one who is known as Tamasa.

You may interpret gatim and param padam as per your wish and be happy. But your posts on supremacy expose your extreme unhappiness and agony. We will rather reach the Param by the Gatim - by loving all.

Oh Yes. Shiva is the root, the cause – the so-called Tamas (wherein all light is). Visnu is the gatim and Param Padam. Lord who is indescribable is Param and he is the Lord of the gatim.

Yes, I will repeat.

SHIVA IS THE ROOT, GAURI THE POWER (VAK), VISHNU THE GATIM

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

Yajur Veda i. 8. 6.

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

Bhagavatam (Churning of ocean)

23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

24. Lord Girisa, you are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

Yajur Veda

Stuhi shrutam garta sadam yuvanam mrugannabhima mupahat numugram, mruda jaritre Rudra Satvano anyante asmanniva pantu senaha ||

I praise you the famous one, seated in the heart, the ever-youthful, terrible like the lion, fierce for the purpose of destruction. Lord Rudra, having been praised by us, let your armies strike at others than us.

Yajur Veda

Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah ||

Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies.

By the way, these mantras are vedic and powerful, unlike your little trash, which reeks of ego.

June 28, 2005

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Remember this when you refer to 'Narayanat Ekadasha Rudro Jayate' and conclude as below:

’”(ie) from Narayana the 11 Rudras were born. by clearly saying '11 Rudras'(Ekadasha Rudras) the Upanishad has laid out that Rudradeva too was born from Narayana”

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u r a stupid atanu.

Rudras normally refer to the 10 rudras only. when the term ekadasha Rudras(11 Rudras) is used then it will refer to all Rudras including Rudradeva.

similarly unless 'dvadhasha aditya'(12 Adityas) is the term only 11 Adityas are referred to. only when 'dvadhasha aditya'(12 Adityas) is used does it include Visnu.

don't know this simple counting and has come to argue about Supremacy. shame on u.

'Narayana' name refers only to Visnu. still u keep on parroting that it refers to Rudra. u consider urself greater than everyone. but u show ur ignorance. the point that Narayana refers only to Visnu is accepted by Panini himself by his sutra :

'poorvapadhaat samgyaayaam agah|'

atanu considers himself superior to Panini. he makes a fool of himself.

its utter waste to argue with people like Atanu who neither understand logic nor sanskrit nor nyaya nor the scriptures nor does he know the BrahmaSutra bhashya of Sankara in which Visnu alone is referred to Parambrahmah.

June 28, 2005

----

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt. Tamas is the param dhama.

paramaapnothi tad Visno Paramam padam". (3rd Valli): Visno is param Padam.

Param Padam and not Param. Padam means part or feet.

Visnu is Lord's gatim.

------

idiocy at his extreme limits.

Tamasa is param dhama? Tamas is nothing but a guna or darkness. Tamas may refer to a person but not a place being so the argument that tamas is paramdhama is hypocrisy.

also here 'tamasa' refers to jivatma who attains the paramam dhama at the time of death - 'dehaante'.

atanu shows that he is completely ignorant of sanskrit.

somewhere else he told that 'avamo' means first when the actual meaning of 'avamo' is 'low,inferior,base,sinful etc...'. atanu is creating a new language of his own.

(padam means part or feet. ) then what does 'paadam' mean?

the exact meaning of 'padam' is 'Abode'.

padam may mean feet but not part. but then

"paramaapnothi tad Visno Paramam padam". (3rd Valli) "

clearly says that this Paramam padam is beyond this material universe (paaramaapnothi).

'paramam' means Supreme. it does not refer to any place for it is an adjective of 'padam' which probably atanu is not aware of.

also 'Visno paramam padam' means "Paramam Padam (Supreme abode) of Visnu."

it does not mean 'Visnu is param padam' as atanu says.

the vibhakti 'Visno' is clear about it.

even if 'padam' is taken to mean feet or part, the verse will mean the Supreme Feet(or part) of Visnu.

so atanu's arguments are baseless.

BinduMadhav · June 28, 2005

Atanu Bhaiyya,

You started out referring to my "Sinful insolence" and then you declare: "You have insulted protector of Visnu. You have insulted Visnu."

I lovingly call you Atanu Bhaiyya all the time. Why this irrational anger? You should stop being so angry. Is such anger always part and parcel of devotees of Rudra Deva? Alternatively, do you love Rudra Deva because you have such short temper?

I have not insulted any protector of Vishnu. Because Lord Vishnu does not need any protectors. He alone is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of all visible and invisible world.

{Kaivalyopanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda}

Bhaiyya, you have to understand that many Saivites have corrupted our Vedanta by writing untruth, Siva-oritented Upanishads. Kaivalya is one of them. Even Sage ShvetAshvatara was no exception, although he has compiled some very good observations in his Upanishad.

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25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares. Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self.

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All one has to do, to cleanse oneself of PApakarmas is to recite Lord Vishnu (a.k.a. Sri RAma, Lord Krishna Vasudeva, Sriman NArAyana and other beautiful names). Why recite the Shatarudriya?

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Oh. Nice. What insolence? Your little piece is that only, a little piece. Which Veda your muck is based on? You have insulted the universal guru. You will pay for your insolence.

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Bhaiyya, please refrain from getting your blood pressure high on such debates. It is not good for your health.

It is downright stupid to get angry over such arguments. Please note that I am not calling you stupid, I am saying that getting angry over such arguments, the very process, is stupid. For you, Siva is the greatest. For us Vaishnavites, Lord Vishnu is the Supreme. It does not matter that we are right. If you want, you can declare victory over the kid, BinduMadhav, if it satisfies your ego, although in reality, you have not won against us Vaishnavites. Atanu Bhaiyya, you will never win this argument. Do you know why? Because Shrutis, Smritis and Puranas all declare Sriman Narayana Vasudeva as the Supreme Lord and all other creatures worship Him alone.

I cannot take such an opinion as a personal victory either. It is the sages including Adi Shankara that deserve all the credit for singing the praises of Lord Vishnu.

I will stop here, because I don't want to be the cause of someone's health problems.

Thank you and may the Lord bless you.

June 28, 2005

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u r a stupid atanu.

*************

Oh Yes. I am extremely stupid. A stupid person can only engage in arguments with you.

**************

Rudras normally refer to the 10 rudras only. when the term ekadasha Rudras(11 Rudras) is used then it will refer to all Rudras including Rudradeva.

************

Well earlier you said as below:

”whenever the Vedas refer to Adityas and Rudras they refer to the devatas except Visnu and Rudradeva. why don't u understand 5this simple thing. Batta Baskara, Sayana, Madhva Acharyas, Sri Vaishnava Acharyas as well as Appaya Dikshita(a Shaivite) have accepted this. so if Adityas flee then that does not include Visnu.”

and if you say that the 12 th Aditya is Vishnu then accept.

YV vi. 5. 6.

------ The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in the creatures for two deities,

What a shame.

Also you may show us from shruti (samhita) that Rudras are 10 and the eleventh is Rudra himself.

RUDRAS ARE MARUTS, CHILDREN OF RUDRA AS VERSE AFTER VERSE OF RIG VEDA PROVE. NARARYANA IS UMA-MAHESVARA (FORM OF SHIVAM), WHICH GIVES RISE TO VISHNU AS IS CLEAR FROM NARAYANA SUKTA:

Narayana Suktam

Verse XIII:

I bow down again and again to THE ETERNAL LAW, THE TRUTH, THE SUPREME BRAHMAN, THE PURUSHA WHO IS DARK BLUE AND REDDISH, THE PURE CELIBATE, WITH EXTRAORDINARY EYES WHO HAS ASSUMED ALL FORMS.

Note: When is Vishnu reddish?

Verse XIV:

We shall try to know Narayana, we shall contemplate on Vasudeva, let Vishnu be pleased to guide us.

Naaraayana Upanishad

“That blissful Supreme Being (Brahman) which resides within, is of the form of OM ------ The one who chants the words “Om Namo Naaraayanaaya” ultimately attains the Vaikunda, the abode of Sri Naaraayanaa (or the Heaven – the Home of Salvation). THE VAIKUNTHA IS NOT (TO BE FOUND) ANYWHERE ELSE BUT IN A PURE BLESSED HEART, FILLED WITH KNOWLEDGE (SPIRITUAL). FROM THERE RISES AN OFFSHOOT OF LIGHT, AS BRIGHT AS A RAY OF LIGHTNING. THAT RAY OF LIGHT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE VARIOUS FORMS OF NAARAAYANA – CALLED BY NAMES SUCH AS SON OF DEVAKI, THE ONE SWEETER THAN HONEY, THE ONE IN THE FORM OF BRAHMA, THE ONE WITH LOTUS-LIKE EYES, VISHNU.

Note: SON OF DEVAKI AND VISHNU AND BRAHMA ARE LIGHTS OF NARAYANA. YOU ARE BLINDED BY COMMON LIGHT. HOW WILL YOU SEE THE TRUE LIGHT AND THE OWNER OF THE LIGHT?

THE TRUTH IS THAT OWNER OF THAT LIGHT IS ATMA.

Maha Narayana Upanishad

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) -------

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of UMAMAHESHVARA, DARK BLUE AND REDDISH BROWN IN HUE, ABSOLUTELY CHASTE AND POSSESSING UNCOMMON EYES. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe.

Note: Compare this with Narayana Suktam above

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

Mahopanishad, included in the Sama-Veda

Iv-83-87. -----(similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than chit.

HE WHO REMAINS GIVING UP WHAT IS IMPLIED AND EXPRESSED IS SHIVA HIMSELF, THE BEST OF THE BRAHMAN-KNOWERS. THAT UN-DECAYING BEING IS THE SUBSTRATUM (OF ALL), WITHOUT COMPARISON BEYOND WORDS AND MIND, ETERNAL, OMNIPOTENT, OMNIPRESENT AND SUBTLE.

SU III, 3-4

i) 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face,

on all sides arms, on all sides feet,

he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth,

forging them together with arms and wings.

4. He who is source and origin of the Gods,

THE LORD OF ALL, RUDRA, THE MIGHTY SAGE,

who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ--

may he endow us with purity of mind!

Svet Up.

4.12

HE, THE CREATOR OF THE GODS AND THE BESTOWER OF THEIR POWERS, THE SUPPORT OF THE UNIVERSE, RUDRA THE OMNISCIENT, WHO AT THE BEGINNING GAVE BIRTH TO HIRANYAGARBHA—MAY HE ENDOW US WITH CLEAR INTELLECT!

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

Yajur Veda i. 8. 15.

a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

b ------

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu

d On the instigation of the Maruts may I conquer.

e Be mind ready.

f May I be united with power and strength. g Thou art the spirit of cattle; like them may my spirit be.

And my extremely intelligent friend (who has now started becoming furious) Shiva alone is Vishnu. Yes Narayana or Purusha is Rudra-Shiva. Vishnu is gatim.

Vishnu and Shiva are One, inseparable. They just play with likes of you.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Rudra when offered, ----- the heaven when arrived at completion.

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

*********

idiocy at his extreme limits.

Tamasa is param dhama? Tamas is nothing but a guna or darkness.

**********

Oh Yes, I accept that I am an idiot.

But I did not invent “Tamasa is param dhama”. You only cited a verse as below.

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt. (Nrisimha Up.)

Baby you do not understand “Tamasa Param Dhama”. HERE TAMASHA MEANS PURE PRAGNYA, WHERE OUTWARD SENSES ARE FULLY ABSORBED IN SELF (ATMA). THERE IS NOTHING OUTSIDE YOU. THAT IS TURIYA.

This becomes of half baked devotees such as you. They become furious. They shake. They grit their teeth. And they cite scriptures that go against them.

*********

padam may mean feet but not part. but then

"paramaapnothi tad Visno Paramam padam". (3rd Valli) "

clearly says that this Paramam padam is beyond this material universe (paaramaapnothi).

**************

YES. YES. I AGREE THAT PADAM IS LOTUS FEET. No doubt. But that is not the reason to abuse the full – to which the lotus feet belong. Shiva is Vishnu and through Vishnu only one attains Shiva. And through Shiva one attains Vishnu who is Uma.

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

June 28, 2005

He abuses as guest and he acts sweet and mature (condenscending) as Bindu.

June 28, 2005

**********

I lovingly call you Atanu Bhaiyya all the time.

********

No need for your love my friend, which is like crocodile tears. Your soul is my friend. But your ego is evil embodied.

Well artificial Bhai. There is no need to argue endlessly. You are deluded since you cannot even imagine ONE LORD in all and All in ONE LORD.

YV iv. 4. 7.

a Thou art the furtherer; thou art the maker of wide room; thou art the eastern; thou art the zenith; thou art the sitter in the atmosphere, sit on the atmosphere.

b Thou art the sitter on the waters; thou art the sitter on the hawk thou art the sitter on the vulture; thou art the sitter on the eagle; thou art the sitter on the vault.

-----------.

e O AGNI, THY HIGHEST NAME, THE HEART, COME LET US JOIN TOGETHER, BE THOU, O AGNI, AMONG THOSE OF THE FIVE RACES.

Yajur Veda

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

No one can see Vayu. Vayu is only known through its gati, as perception to senses. No one can see this Sivam like no one can see Vayu. Sivam is only known through its Gati – Lord Visnu – Visvarupa.

Ego is evil. Ego is devil. It creates individuals. It creates boundaries between nations, between religions, between man and woman, and among beings. It leads to war.

You are engulfed in ego and led by this ego you bring evil here. You create boundaries in indescribable Lord.

Lord is ONE. Veda Samhita is clear. That ONE says "I" in all beings. This "I" is the ONE undivided. This Self is sivam.

“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; -------

iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

The same "I" is Soma (in mind), Visnu when brought down, Rudra when offered worship, and heaven at the end.

YV iv. 4. 7.

a Thou art the furtherer; -----.

b Thou art the sitter on the waters; -----.

-----------.

e O AGNI, THY HIGHEST NAME, THE HEART, COME LET US JOIN TOGETHER, BE THOU, O AGNI, AMONG THOSE OF THE FIVE RACES.

---------

THIS “I” IS OF NATURE OF AGNI, WHOSE HIGHEST NAME IS HRIDAYA, THE HEART, THE SELF, THE ATMA.

AND IS THAT HIGHEST MYSTIC AGNI, WHICH IS HEART OF EVERY ONE?

Yajur Veda

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

yo rudro vishvA bhuvanA.a.avivesha

tasmai rudrAya namo astu

Prostrations to that Rudra who exists in fire, water, and air, herbs and all the worlds

Yajur Veda v. 7. 3.

a Thou art the thunderbolt of Indra, slaying foes;

Guarding our bodies, lying in wait;

The fire is Rudra; now two are his bodies, the dread the one, the auspicious the other; -------

YV v. 4. 3.

The fire is Rudra; he is born then when he is completely piled up; ----------

YV v. 4. 10.

The fire is Rudra, and it is as if one stirs up a sleeping lion.

v. 5. 7.

The fire is Rudra, his are three missiles, one that comes straight on, one that strikes transversely, and one that follows up.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull;

This "I", Om Namah Sivayya loves as Siva. He is the deity with the bull.

Om Namah Narayana Namah.

Om Namah Sivayya

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; -------

Oh yes. This my beloved Shiva.

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

Bye Bhai (artificial one). I do not wish to debate with you since it is not debate. It is a desecration of scriptures by you.

BinduMadhav · June 28, 2005

Atanu wrote:

---------------

Guest and Bindu are same

He abuses as guest and he acts sweet and mature (condenscending) as Bindu.

----------------

My dear Atanu,

You are wrong. Again.

Although it does not bother me what you think of me, I want to advise you, again, that I post my messages as BinduMadhav and not as anyone else.

Sheer anger has clouded your judgement.

BinduMadhav · June 28, 2005

Atanu wrote:

{Your soul is my friend.}

My dear Atanu: That is sweet. You are welcome to make friends with it. When you learn to exchange messages with my soul, let me know and I will also try to befriend my soul.

The bottom line is this, Atanu: You cannot communicate with my soul, your own soul, or your friend Ganeshprasad's soul. My brain is talking to your brain here. No matter what the Truth is, our souls need our bodies to communicate with each other at this point in time and space.

{You are deluded since you cannot even imagine ONE LORD in all and All in ONE LORD.}

I do. All Vaishnavites do. The only thing is that we call Him Sriman Narayana and imagine Him to be with four arms, with Shankha, Chakra, GadA and Padma. After understanding this, go back and see if you think I am engulfed in ego.

You are welcome to imagine Him as Rudra or Siva. I personally don't have any problems with it.

But the bottom line is: You have not proved your arguments that God in the form of Siva is the Supreme Reality as espoused by the Vedas.

I know that I have irritated you so much that you don't care for my compliments, but here, I offer you one. Although we (meaning I and other Guests) have proved to you over and over again that Lord Vishnu is the Supreme Lord, you have never resorted to denigrating Him.

That is a good quality in human beings.

At the same time, you are a steadfast Saivite.

This does not come as a suprise to me. Once a person has been conditioned (to use a Bertrand Russell terminology) during formative years, one continues to believe steadfastly in his/her beliefs.

June 28, 2005

"I offer you one. Although we (meaning I and other Guests) have proved to you over and over again that Lord Vishnu is the Supreme Lord, you have never resorted to denigrating Him."

Nah, Nakko, aisa naiheem jee.

Shiva is formless bramhan. The name Shiva regards the formless bramhan as auspicious. That'a all. Formless, nirguna bramhan is the bottom line in it, though.

You don't require any formative conditioning to realise the formless god within each of us & discover the unconditional love you are capable of. It's all about experience.

"Once a person has been conditioned (to use a Bertrand Russell terminology) during formative years, one continues to believe steadfastly in his/her beliefs."

Whom are you trying to convince that you were born in an ISCON go-shala. Whom are you trying to convince that you wouldn't turn your back on lord krishna. Whom are you trying to convince that vaishnavites won't convert themselves looking for more forgiving gods than krishna, and forget krishna all together. Where is it unconditional love to Krishna/vishnu/any-god-form.

krishnadasa · June 28, 2005

Good job keep it up!!!

June 29, 2005

*****

At the same time, you are a steadfast Saivite.

This does not come as a suprise to me. Once a person has been conditioned (to use a Bertrand Russell terminology) during formative years, one continues to believe steadfastly in his/her beliefs.

*******

The above conditioning is true of you.

For me:

Ekam Shivam Advaitam. And Vishnu is nearest to me.

I know this:

YV iii. 1. 10.

g ---- he returns, and with a verse addressed to Visnu reverences Soma; Visnu is the sacrifice; verily he makes the sacrifice. 'O Visnu, as our nearest, O mighty one, grant us protection; the streams dripping honey milk for thee the unfailing source', he says; verily he makes to swell Soma.

I also know:

YV iii. 2. 6.

a Thou art the milk of the great ones, ----- thou art the heart of Visnu,

YV i. 2. 2.

a To the purpose, to the impulse, to Agni, hail! ------

g Thou art the protection of Visnu, the protection of the sacrificer, grant me protection.

Greatly conditioned are those who do not know that Siva and Visnu are in each other. They are never separated.

YV i. 8. 6.

c Thou art the protection of cattle, the protection of the sacrifice; give me protection.

d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.

June 29, 2005

"The bottom line is this, Atanu: You cannot communicate with my soul, your own soul, or your friend Ganeshprasad's soul."

Since you do not know and believe:

A wise old Owl sitting in an Oak

The more he saw, the less he spoke

The less he spoke the more he heard

Why cant we all be like that bird!!!

"I do. All Vaishnavites do. The only thing is that we call Him Sriman Narayana and imagine Him to be with four arms, with Shankha, Chakra, GadA and Padma. "

Ha Ha. Truly imagination. You have acknowledged. With gada. Truly imagination.

In Shruti Narayana is Purusha -- a pointed flame within an inverted lotus bud in Hridaya.

Ha Ha.

June 29, 2005

Imaginations should change. They are like Chitraketu, obstinate.

*****The only thing is that we call Him Sriman Narayana and imagine Him to be with four arms, with Shankha, Chakra, GadA and Padma.*******

Well well we do not imagine.

Naarayana Sooktam:

Verse VI:

I worship the Infinite and Immutable Seer who is the other end of the Ocean (of Samsara) and the source of all happiness.

The Hridayam (the heart which is the place of meditation) resembles an inverted lotus bud.

Verse VII:

A span below the throat and above the navel there burns a fire from which flames are rising up. That is the great support (basis of existence) of the Universe.

Verse XIII:

I

bow down again and again to the Eternal Law, the Truth, the Supreme Brahman, the Purusha who is dark blue and reddish, the pure celibate, with extraordinary eyes who has assumed all forms.

Note: Since when, Visnu became Red and Blue?

Verse XIV:

We shall try to know Narayana, we shall contemplate on Vasudeva, let Vishnu be pleased to guide us.

There is no Gada and other imaginative adornments. It is a point of flame.

Naaraayana Upanishad

“That blissful Supreme Being (Brahman) which resides within, is of the form of OM ------ The one who chants the words “Om Namo Naaraayanaaya” ultimately attains the Vaikunda, the abode of Sri Naaraayanaa. THE VAIKUNTHA IS NOT ANYWHERE ELSE BUT IN A PURE BLESSED HEART, FILLED WITH KNOWLEDGE. FROM THERE RISES AN OFFSHOOT OF LIGHT, AS BRIGHT AS A RAY OF LIGHTNING. THAT RAY OF LIGHT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE VARIOUS FORMS OF NAARAAYANA – CALLED BY NAMES SUCH AS SON OF DEVAKI, THE ONE SWEETER THAN HONEY, THE ONE IN THE FORM OF BRAHMA, THE ONE WITH LOTUS-LIKE EYES, VISHNU.

THE VAIKUNTHA IS NOT ANYWHERE ELSE BUT IN A PURE BLESSED HEART

FROM THERE RISES AN OFFSHOOT OF LIGHT, AS BRIGHT AS A RAY OF LIGHTNING

THAT RAY OF LIGHT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE VARIOUS FORMS OF NAARAAYANA

SUCH AS SON OF DEVAKI

THE ONE IN THE FORM OF BRAHMA

ONE WITH LOTUS-LIKE EYES, VISHNU

THE VAIKUNTHA IS NOT ANYWHERE ELSE BUT IN A PURE BLESSED HEART

And this pointed flame is as below --- the Hridaya. And he is the strider.

YV iv. 4. 7.

a Thou art the furtherer; thou art the maker of wide room; thou art the eastern; thou art the zenith; thou art the sitter in the atmosphere, sit on the atmosphere.

b Thou art the sitter on the waters; thou art the sitter on the hawk thou art the sitter on the vulture; thou art the sitter on the eagle; thou art the sitter on the vault.

-----------.

e O AGNI, THY HIGHEST NAME, THE HEART, COME LET US JOIN TOGETHER, BE THOU, O AGNI, AMONG THOSE OF THE FIVE RACES.

And this Hridaya is Rudra

Yajur Veda

yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oshhadhIshhu

Yajur Veda v. 7. 3.

a Thou art the thunderbolt of Indra, slaying foes;

Guarding our bodies, lying in wait;

The fire is Rudra; now two are his bodies, the dread the one, the auspicious the other; -------

YV v. 4. 3.

The fire is Rudra; he is born then when he is completely piled up; ----------

YV v. 4. 10.

The fire is Rudra, and it is as if one stirs up a sleeping lion.

v. 5. 7.

The fire is Rudra, his are three missiles, one that comes straight on, one that strikes transversely, and one that follows up.

YAJUR VEDA IV. 4. 8.

(THOU “I” ART) ALL OVERCOMING THROUGH AGNI; SELF-RULING THROUGH THE SUN; LORD OF STRENGTH THROUGH MIGHT; CREATOR WITH THE BULL;

Oh Yes. This is Shiva, my dear beloved Lord. His light is my beloved Vishnu with Gada.

June 30, 2005

Verse XIII:

I bow down again and again to THE ETERNAL LAW, THE TRUTH, THE SUPREME BRAHMAN, THE PURUSHA WHO IS DARK BLUE AND REDDISH, THE PURE CELIBATE, WITH EXTRAORDINARY EYES WHO HAS ASSUMED ALL FORMS.

Note: When is Vishnu reddish?

Visnu is reddish in his Narasimha form. the same word 'krishnapingalam' - 'dark blue and red' - is used to refer to Narasimha in Nrisimha Tapani:

" rudam satyam parambrahmah purusham Nrikesari vigraham

KRISHNAPINGALAM..."

SHATAPATHA SAYS rUDRA WAS BORN OF BRAHMADEVA'S SEMEN.

SRUTI REFERS TO RUDRA'S DIFFERENT TYPES OF BIRTHS IN DIFFERENT KALPAS.

SATARUDRIYA ALSO SAYS THAT RUDRA WAS BORN OF BRAHMADEVA'S TEARS.

SHIVA HIMSELF SAYS THAT HE IS ANAPAHATAPAAPMA.

THUS HE IS NOT NARAYANA FOR NARAYANA IS APAHATAPAAPMA.

"...APAHATAPAAPMA DIVYA DEVA EKO NARAYANA.H" (Subala Upanishad)

TAITTREYA ARANYAKA IDENTIFIES PARAMA PURUSHA AS LAKSHMI PATI. IT HAS BEEN ALREADY QUOTED BEFORE.

u have not tried to interpret Rudrotpatti of Shatapatha to suit ur ideology.

SHATAPATHA BELONGS TO YAJUR VEDA AND IS A POPULAR PIECE OF SRUTI.

u just keep on blabbering the same idiotic misinterpretations which have been proved wrong again and again.

keep ur idiocy with urself.

KESHAANTA IS CLEARLY EXPLAINED. ANY PERSON WHO KNOWS SANSKRIT CAN EASILY UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF IT.

THE VERSE FROM HARIVAMSA ALSO AUTHORISES TH EXPLANATION AND HARIVAMSA BELONGS TO MAHABHARATA AND HENCE IS AN ABSOLUTE PRAMAANA.

UR ARGUMENTS CAN MAKE NO ALTERATION IN THE FACT THAT VISNU IS KESHAANTA.

-

Baby you do not understand “Tamasa Param Dhama”. HERE TAMASHA MEANS PURE PRAGNYA, WHERE OUTWARD SENSES ARE FULLY ABSORBED IN SELF (ATMA). THERE IS NOTHING OUTSIDE YOU. THAT IS TURIYA.

--------------------------------

WAH! this atanu who does not even know the meaning of 'Vishno' in which the vibhakti is very clear tries to give an intellectual reason for his interpretation.

the interpretation of Atanu is baseless for 'Tamas' does not mean so. no Sanskrit work says so. atanu may say that grammar is not necessary. only a fool will say so for sanskrit verses cannot be interpreted without sanskrit grammar.

keep ur stupid arguments with urself.

u will quote from devi Uanishad despite the fact that it is not a pramaana upanishad.

now bear with the quote from the Chaandogya Upanishad:

"Virupaakshaaya BRAHMANA PUTRAYA jyeshtaya sreshtaya"

note it clearly atanu. Shiva(Virupaaksha) is Brahma's son as said in Shatapatha.

Shatapatha is clear. whatever u shout, Shiva is a jivatma who is not cleansed of sins and who is bound by karma for he is anapahatapaapma.

keep on shouting.

bye for eternity.

July 2, 2005

They go down by the weight of their own contradictions

*********

KESHAANTA IS CLEARLY EXPLAINED. ANY PERSON WHO KNOWS SANSKRIT CAN EASILY UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF IT.

*********

By admission of this blasphemous person, In KESHANTA, Shiva is Isha (and Ka is Brahma). Isha is Bhagawan – possessor of six gunas in full perfection. He is the controller, ordainer etc.

Now, this person claims as below:

“SHIVA HIMSELF SAYS THAT HE IS ANAPAHATAPAAPMA.”

This person makes ISHA a sinner.

******

SATARUDRIYA ALSO SAYS THAT RUDRA WAS BORN OF BRAHMADEVA'S TEARS.

********

This is nothing but wild imagination of a sinful person (guided by devil ego). Shiva is addressed as Isha Bhagwan and para as below:

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan

O Bhagavan! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

AND IT IS ALSO CLEAR WHO HAS THOUSAND EYES

Shri Rudram 1.11

avatatya dhanustvaM sahasrAxa shateshhudhe |

nishIrya shalyAnAM mukhA shivo naH sumanA bhava ||

O Rudra who are the thousand-eyed One and the Bearer of a hundred arrow-quivers! Having loosened Your bow-string and having degraded (made blunt) the tips of Your arrows, become benevolent and peaceful towards us.

It is sinful to even discuss with such sinners who try to defame ISHA of Vedas.

July 2, 2005

********u just keep on blabbering the same idiotic misinterpretations which have been proved wrong again and again.

keep ur idiocy with urself.

**************

SUCH LANGUAGE IS NOW PART OF YOUR VOCABULARY. GOOD.

************

the interpretation of Atanu is baseless for 'Tamas' does not mean so

****************

I do not have to translate or interpret (like you do to reverse the meanings. The following verse says: “eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt”

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt. (Nrisimha Up.)

No interpreter required.

*************

Verse XIII:

I bow down again and again to THE ETERNAL LAW, THE TRUTH, THE SUPREME BRAHMAN, THE PURUSHA WHO IS DARK BLUE AND REDDISH, THE PURE CELIBATE, WITH EXTRAORDINARY EYES WHO HAS ASSUMED ALL FORMS.

Note: When is Vishnu reddish?

Visnu is reddish in his Narasimha form. the same word 'krishnapingalam' - 'dark blue and red' - is used to refer to Narasimha in Nrisimha Tapani:

" rudam satyam parambrahmah purusham Nrikesari vigraham

KRISHNAPINGALAM..."

*******************

The discussion is of Narayana in Hridaya. Wherein, see Krishna Pingalam below. And please find “Ekam Advaitam Sivam” in Nrisimha Upanishad appearing in not less than three verses.

Maha Narayana Upanishad

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) -------

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of UMAMAHESHVARA, DARK BLUE AND REDDISH BROWN IN HUE, ABSOLUTELY CHASTE AND POSSESSING UNCOMMON EYES. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe.

Those who have hierarchical hang ups cannot see ONE GOD.

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; ------ VISNU WHEN BEING TAKEN DOWN; ----------- RUDRA WHEN OFFERED; ------------- THE HEAVEN WHEN ARRIVED AT COMPLETION.

“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; -------

Svet Up.

4.12

HE, THE CREATOR OF THE GODS AND THE BESTOWER OF THEIR POWERS, THE SUPPORT OF THE UNIVERSE, RUDRA THE OMNISCIENT, WHO AT THE BEGINNING GAVE BIRTH TO HIRANYAGARBHA—MAY HE ENDOW US WITH CLEAR INTELLECT!

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

YAJUR VEDA I. 8. 6. D

RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND.

July 7, 2005

Naaraayana Upanishad

-

“That blissful Supreme Being (Brahman) which resides within, is of the form of OM ------ The one who chants the words “Om Namo Naaraayanaaya” ultimately attains the Vaikunda, the abode of Sri Naaraayanaa. THE VAIKUNTHA IS NOT ANYWHERE ELSE BUT IN A PURE BLESSED HEART, FILLED WITH KNOWLEDGE. FROM THERE RISES AN OFFSHOOT OF LIGHT, AS BRIGHT AS A RAY OF LIGHTNING. THAT RAY OF LIGHT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE VARIOUS FORMS OF NAARAAYANA – CALLED BY NAMES SUCH AS SON OF DEVAKI, THE ONE SWEETER THAN HONEY, THE ONE IN THE FORM OF BRAHMA, THE ONE WITH LOTUS-LIKE EYES, VISHNU.

--------------------------------

can u give the verses in sanskrit and prove that ur translation is right? always writing baseless translations and interpretations.

--------------

THE ONE SWEETER THAN HONEY

---------------

the verse says "BRAHMANYO DEVAKI PUTRO, BRAHMANYO MADHUSOODHANO"

MEANING:

DEVAKI'S SON IS SUPREME LORD. KILLER OF MADHU(MADHUSOODHAN)IS THE SUPREME LORD.

MADHU IS HE NAME OF THE DEMON WHO WAS KILLED BY VISNU IN HIS HAYAGRIVA AVATAR WHICH IS WELL EXPLAINED IN HAYASIRA UPAAKYAANAM.

ATANU DOES NOT KNOW SANSKRIT AND HE INTERPRETS MADHUSOODHAN AS 'SWEETER THAN HONEY'. GREAT EXPOSURE OF STUPIDITY.

HERE NAARAAYANA IS IDENTIFIED WITH HIS AVATARS.

ALSO THE TRANSLATION THAT VAIKUNTHA IS "NOT ANYWHERE ELSE BUT PURE HEART" IS WRONG. THE VERSE DOES NOT SAY SO. I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO CONTINUE ARGUING ON EACH POINT FOR I AM STUDENT DOING MY B.COM.

FOR TIME BEING bear with this quotation which is clearly interpreted:

`sarvotkarshhe devadevasya vishhNor-

mahAtAtparyaM naiva chAnyatra satyam.h |

avAntaraM tatparatvaM tadanyat.h

sarvAgamAnAM purushhArthastato.ataH ||' iti paiN^gishrutiH |

"The Supremacy of Vishnu, the Deity-of-deities, is the supreme purport, and not otherwise -- this is true; other purports than this of all Agama-s are inferior, because of the supreme purushhArtha," says the Paingi-shruti.

this Paingi-shruti is accepted as a pramana by Sankara, Ramanuja as well as Madhva.

-

The discussion is of Narayana in Hridaya. Wherein, see Krishna Pingalam below. And please find “Ekam Advaitam Sivam” in Nrisimha Upanishad appearing in not less than three verses.

--

u try to say that 'Narayana' refers to Rudradeva which is not possible and anyone who is familiar with Sanskrit will know that 'Narayana' name will refer only to Visnu and not to anyone else and this is accepted by Panini in his Sutra:

"Purvapadhaat samgyaayaam aga.h"

also 'Sivam' is an attained name of Rudra and Shatapatha explains it. u does not have the ability to reinterpret it. Shatapatha belongs to Yajur Veda and is considered as an important part of it. when Shatapatha says that Rudra is Anapahatapaapma and that his names were attained names, u do not accept it nor do u try to reinterpret it to suit ur thoughts. infact one cannot reinterpret it in anyway for the verse is very clear.

--------------------------------

I do not have to translate or interpret (like you do to reverse the meanings. The following verse says: “eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt”

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt. (Nrisimha Up.)

No interpreter required.

--------------------------------

so atanu will not translate for he does not need sanskrit as it does not help him. he will just blabber whatever comes to his mind without any basis. an utter waste to argue with persons like u.

most of ur quotes have been reinterpreted coorectly by the vaisnavas and u still repeat the same without satisfactorily proving the contrary. u r just writing whatever comes to u mind and nothing else and there by u r discrediting the vedas. i request the vaisnavas not to waste their time with such idiots who will neither accept sanskrit nor Pramanika Granthas.

finally a quote from Mahopanishad,

" Shiva eva svayam saakshaat ayam brahma vidh uttama"

meaning:

only Shiva is the best knower(vidh uttama) of this(ayam) Brahman.

by clearly saying that Shiva is the best knower of this Brahman, the Upanishad clearly distinguishes Rudra from Supreme Reality . the word 'ayam'(this) clearly demarcates this.

thus Brahman is different from Shiva and Shiva knows this Brahman.

'Isha' is just a name of Shiva and Shiva's names are attained names and so it does not literally mean that he is the Controller.

therefore the interpretation of 'Keshaanta' stands clear.

also Shiva himself says in Harivamsa(of Mahabharata)as follows:

"ka iti brahmano naama Ishoham sarva dehinaam

aavaam tavaange sambhootow tasmaad keshava naamavaan"

meaning:

"'Ka' is the name of Brahmadeva and I am the Isha of all mortal bodies(dehinaam).We both were born from U and hence U r called Keshava."

therefore Shiva is the Isha of mortal bodies only and not of souls or the whole universe. also the same method as described by Shiva is used to interpret 'Keshaanta'.

Vishnu is KESHAANTA. reconcile with the reality.

as alredy quoted before from Taitrreya Aranyaka of Yajur Veda Rudra's bow was broken and Rudra's heads were severed by Indra.

what more is needed?

the upaakyaanam quoted says that Visnu's came to Indra's help with which Indra killed Rudradeva.

even if u do not accept this Upaakyaanam, the sruti is clear that Indra severed Rudradeva's head and that he also broke Rudra's bow.

Naaraayana Upanishad(1) says:

"......Naaraayanaat Rudro Jaayate"

meaning:

Rudra was born from Narayana.

also Nrisimha Tapani identifies the Lord in Parama Padam as:

"Ksheero dhaarnava Shaayinam..."

Visnu is the one who is lying on the milk ocean(Kshirodhaarnava).

let Atanu accept Visnu's Supremacy atleast now and if he still diesn't let him keep on blabbering the same baseless theories.

nothing can change that Vishnu is the Supreme and that He is superior to Rudradeva also.

July 7, 2005

'tasyendro vahmirUpeNa dhanurjyAmachChinatsvayam.h'

(Indra in the form of Agni himself breaks the 'heart of his bow' into pieces) and concludes

'etadrudrasya dhanuH | rudrasyatveva dhanurArtniH shira utpipeSha | sa pravargyo.abhavat.h'

(That bow belonged to Rudra. Since that belonged to Rudra, Rudra's 3 heads broke into pieces)

and thus conveys an incident where Indra severes the head of Rudra.

Rig Veda 7:46

imaá rudraáya sthirádhanvane gíraH kSipréSave DEVAAYA svadhaávne

áSaaLhaaya sáhamaanaaya vedháse tigmaáyudhaaya bharataa shRNótu naH

note the word in caps. Vedas have accepted Rudra to be a DEVA. so the shaivites cannot say that Rudra is not a deva.

Aitareya Brahmana(1.1.1) states

Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA

Meaning:

Agni is the lowest and Visnu is the Supreme among the Devas. In between them lie the other devas.

the sruti(vedas) clearly point out hierarchy among the devatas in terms of Supremacy and it says that Visnu is the Supreme of them all. Also Vedas themselves call Rudra as DEVA and so Rudra is also mentioned here and he too occupies a position in between Agni and Visnu.

this vakya also makes it clear that all devas are not the same and that all devas are not equal to one other. In fact no other deva is equal to or greater than Visnu.

July 7, 2005

First, I hate your attitude.

You should be a fool to call others a fool.

You should be one of the old timer fanatic iyengaars.

You quote only from vaishnavite literature, which were written much later just to make vishnu look superior.

Whatever you quote cannot undo that fact that, vishnu was only a minor god during rig vedic times.

We cannot accept the literature of later day vaishnav achharyaas.

And You do not know how to argue. here is why I say so.

*****" Shiva eva svayam saakshaat ayam brahma vidh uttama"

meaning:

only Shiva is the best knower(vidh uttama) of this(ayam) Brahman.

by clearly saying that Shiva is the best knower of this Brahman, the Upanishad clearly distinguishes Rudra from Supreme Reality . the word 'ayam'(this) clearly demarcates this.

thus Brahman is different from Shiva and Shiva knows this Brahman.

*******

Here you did not consider the possibility of a case where the knower and the known are one and the same.

So instead of being brainwashed by your vaishnavite literture, you might as well go to a temple, pray for getting good marks in BCOM, and give you a good mind to realise him.

July 7, 2005

the following is a quotation from Bhaallaveya shruti(also called Bhaallaveya Upanishad). this is also accepted as a pramaana by prominent Achaaryaas and has been often quoted by them.

`nAmAni vishvA.abhi na santi loke yadAvirAsIdanR^itasya sarvam.h |

nAmAni sarvAni yamAvishanti taM vai viShNuM paramamudAharanti |'

iti bhAllaveyashrutiH |

Which says that only Vishnu is the primary referrent of all names.

thus when we say that 'Rudra','Shiva','Shambhu' etc refer to VIshnu when they r used to speak about the Supreme Lord, it is based on Sruti itself.

so let Atanu understand atleast now that only Visnu is Supreme and hat everyone else,including Rudra deva, is inferior to him.

July 7, 2005

Whatever you quote cannot undo that fact that, vishnu was only a minor god during rig vedic times.

Aitareya Brahmana is in Rg Veda and it says:

"Agnir vai Devaanaaam avamo Visnu paramas, tadaantarena anya devata"

ur argument stands defeated here.

I am not quoting from Vaishnavite literature but from the Sruti. perhaps u do not know the difference between them.

Here you did not consider the possibility of a case where the knower and the known are one and the same.

the case is certainly not possible here. because of the word 'ayam'. the word 'ayam' clearly distinguishes the knower and the known. it says "Shiva knows this Brahman" and hence Shiva is different from Brahman.

try to understand.

July 7, 2005

---

as alredy quoted before from Taitrreya Aranyaka of Yajur Veda Rudra's bow was broken and Rudra's heads were severed by Indra.

---

could you tell the exact chapter of yajur veda where the above is quoted......or is it a later addition..??

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Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

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