Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

June 10, 2005

7:40:5

asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH

vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat

Meaning:

I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya).

On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strength(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothers have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food.

once again do not try to misinterpret.

'vide hi' will always refer to only those words spoken before it and it will give reason for the words spoken after it.

thus here the meaning is 100% clear, on knowing that Visnu is Iswara(words spoken before 'vide hi'), Rudra Deva attained His Rudra strength(words spoken after 'vide hi').

also Aitereya Brahmana(1.1.1) says

"Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA"

meaning:

Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest. All other devatas occupy positions inbetween.

now u may try to argue that Rudra is Mahadeva etc. but these arguments are just useless rhetoric. the quotation from Shatapatha is more than enough to show that Rudra is a Jiva and that clears all doubts about his being above the level of jivas to be allowed any exception here.

if u still want to prove Rudra's Supremacy then try to reinterpret the verses from Shatapatha in a proper way that suits u.

u said that Shatarudriya is a part of Vedas and that Vaishnavas don't accept its sayings. we reinterpret the mantras of shatarudriya giving apt reasons for the reinterpretation based on various nyayas and logic.(attained names cannot make one similar to the real person)

but u people don't even try to reinterpret the verses from Shatapatha. if one has to accept ur arguments which are half baked then Vedas will become nothing but a collection of contradictory statements.

Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda is in 10:136:7

it says,

"vaayúr asmaa úpaamanthat pináSTi smaa kunannamaá

keshií viSásya paátreNa yád rudréNaápibat sahá"

Vayu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend,

When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, poison from the cup.

This is the story where Vayu had to gring the poison from the ocean for Rudra Deva as Rudra himself was not able to gring the poison or digest it. So Vayu Deva had to grind it for Rudra deva and also drink a major portion of this poison while giving only a small portion to Rudra Deva.

So we can see here that Rudra Deva occupies a lower position with respect to Vayu Deva as well.

u tried to make Visnu lower to Indra by misinterpreting but see here Rudra is only a secondary consumer of Halahala visha which makes him secondary to Vayu.

also see the following,

8.100.12 O Vis.n.u my friends, stride forth lustily; O heaven, give room to contain the thunderbolt; let us smite Vr.tra, let us open the rivers; let them flow, set free, at the command of Indra. [Give room to contain the thunderbolt: Br.haddevata_ is cited: Vr.tra had enveloped the three worlds and stood there in his fierce energy; Indra could not conquer him, and he went to Vis.n.u and said, "I will smite Vr.tra, do you stride forth and stand by my side, and let the heavens give room for my uplifted thunderbolt". Vis.n.u consented and did so, and the heavens gave an open space. All this is related in this r.ca].

then another for u

vi. 2. 3.

The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, 'Rudra is cruel, let him shoot it.' He said, 'Let me choose a boon; let me be overlord of animals.' Therefore is Rudra overlord of animals.

Pasupati - overlord of animals.

Rudra gains this title, because Rudra sought a boon from somebody else.

This shows Rudra's subordinate position and nullifies the claims that Rudra does not pray to other Devatas.

also how can anyone who has to attain lordship over certain creatures by asking for a boon be Supreme for Parabrahmah has to be the overlord of everything.

so Rudra deva cannot be the Supreme Purusha or Parabrahman. If u still claim so, do it as u wish but it will not change the eternal truth - VIsnu is the Supreme Brahman.

also the vakya,

"Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA"

clearly shows that there is Superior-subordinate status among the deities and that all cannot be the same or equal to one another. also the case being so, everyone cannot be Brahman. so ur case stands defeated right here. if u claim that there is no question of superiority then u go against this vakya and hence against the vedas. so wind up ur misinformation campaign. i just don't want to wsate my time with u. VriddhaHaareeta Smriti says that those who say that someone is superior to or equl to Visnu they are Papis and their company has to be avoided.

also Trivikrama Upanishad and Mahanarayana Upanishad call Narayana as one who has no one equal to Him or greater than Him. so learn and understand the truth.

June 10, 2005

i might not be able to argue with these people as i have some essential work to do in the coming weeks. but u refer to the topic 'Narayana is Supreme' in this website and note the speciality of Naraya'na' name quoted by Saranathan. and also the satva vedanta pratyaya nyaya. it will help u a lot in further arguments with these non-vedic veda translators(because they will not go by the various nyayas nor will they try to understand the logic and grammar behind interpretations.)

let Narayana bless u in ur efforts and the blessings of my Acharya and ur Acharya give u the strength to argue with them.

June 10, 2005

One of the signs of advaithic is indifference to unreal and ever-changing. These stupid vaishnavites (Shyam to Bindu note), wishing each other with their acharyas blessings, are bracing for more arguments.

Let them correct errors or give credit where it's considered due. Let's them give the advaith the credit of non-vedic veda translators & also consider the advaiths as unable to follow "various nyayas" & "logic and grammar behind interpretations".

After-all in the end of the argument they are going to say accept their (vaishnavite) thinking. The accept to them is a hollow word, as there are no actions from them for the below mentioned questions.

-What does it mean as ACCEPT?

-To whom does this meaning of ACCEPT matters or makes sense?

-How is the level of acceptance validated?

-If it is ACCEPTED then what does one get, which is not possible otherwise?

-How does this thing called ACCEPT relate to spiritual experience?

-Where is God in all of the above ACCEPT process.

If this is how they are preaching for any vaishnavite group, one can well think how they are mis-using the resources of bakthas who've made contributions to their organization.

June 10, 2005

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Rig Veda 7.59.12

Maha Mrituyonjaya Mantra

We Worship Tryambaka, Who spreads Fragrance and Increases nourishment, May He release me, like the cucumber from its stem, from Mortal life, and give me Immorality.

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now immortality here is granted because the mantra is addressed to the antaryami of Rudra. -

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We have gone through all these many times and through ages. It is inevitable that some people will not recognize God and will be punished. It is written predicted in Vedas and repeated as Daksha Yagna. What of you?

As always you say “the mantra is addressed to the antaryami of Rudra”.

But Rudra is all. The first born is Rudra and one who was and is before any birth was and is Rudra. It is clear from Yajur Veda as cited below. These are from Samhita and not from extentions like your stories. Reconcile everything. I am not against you but I wish that you will consider all scriptures together.

All verses from Yajur Veda

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

Nama Ashave chajiraya cha

Salutations to Him who pervades all and moves swiftly.

Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all.

Namo Madhya maya chapagalbhaya cha

Salutations to Him who appears in the middle, and who appears undeveloped.

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Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra.

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

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here Sayana says "When Visnu for your energy, strode wide those three great steps of His,........"

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This is meaningless. Vishnu took steps for your energy? Meaningless, Sayana or no Sayana.

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Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra.

9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

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what to note? this once again shows ur hypocrisy. Sayana says that Visnu,Varuna and Mitra applaude Indra's praise rather than sing his praise. try to be more precise in ur translation.

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He He. It is the same. Vishnu lauds and sings Indra's praise.

And why do you hide this:

RV Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra.

2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might

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how can Rudra who cries on being born that he is Anapahatapapma ie he is not cleansed of his sins be the Parambrahman. if u think so then u too will have to cry just like ur deity, Rudra deva.

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Yes Rudra cries, since Rudra is unborn as well as in me and you. And if I can cry with Him, at his sorrow, I will consider myself touched by divinity. But you should also know the following:

Bhagavatam

Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

Likes of you are called shameless in Bhagavatam.

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now Purusha Sukta says 'Tam evam vidvaan amritaiha bhavati'

only by knowing the Parama Purusha can one attain moksha.

the Uttaranuvaka of Purusha Sukta in Taittreya identifies the ParamaPurusha as 'Hreeshcha te LAKSHMISCHA PATNYOU' - 'Hree(bhumi) and Lakshmi are Your wives' and it is well known that Lakshmi pati is Visnu and also Bhumi is a patni of VIsnu.

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Why in Uttaranuvaka and not in Samhita? Ok let it be.

Scriptures say the followings:

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

YV iv. 5. 5

f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista.

If you require more proof.

YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage

Rudra’s attribute is of pervading and not the other way around. It is there in Rig Veda also.

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

2 He through his lordship pervades in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) ---------- Visnu when being taken down; ---------- Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed;

So, where is the problem? Namo Rudraya Vishnave..... All names refer to Shiva. Sata Rudriya of Vedas make it absolutely clear.

Rest all is rehash of your old story. I go through the motions.

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8.100.12 O Vis.n.u my friends, stride forth lustily; O heaven, give room to contain the thunderbolt; let us smite Vr.tra, let us open the rivers; let them flow, set free, at the command of Indra.

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“let us open the rivers; let them flow, set free, at the command of Indra”

After this you create stories as usual. But the truth is 'at the command of Indra'.

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Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda is in 10:136:7

it says,

"vaayúr asmaa úpaamanthat pináSTi smaa kunannamaá

keshií viSásya paátreNa yád rudréNaápibat sahá"

Vayu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend,

When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, poison from the cup.

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Yes my legs do all walking for me. That does not make my legs my param. Please drop this verse from your arsenal.

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"Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA"

meaning:

Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest. All other devatas occupy positions inbetween.

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Yes, it is about Devatas constituting Bhagwan’s arrow. But one who is vilohita and Nilgriva and is thousand armed is Bhagwan:

From Yajur Veda

Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah ||

Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies.

Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah |

Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi ||

In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us.

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I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya).

On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strength(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothers have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food.

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Translation is, as usual your own. And your grammar cannot not over rule shruti:

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | (shvetAshvatara upaniShad)

Yes Vishnu is Rudra’s power and thus is used as arrow. And Agni is also similarly a power. Sita Upanishad will make it clear. Vishnu is the world seed and Maya. And SA denoting Siva with consort is the eternal truth. Siva is Pasupathi because of Vishnu – no doubt about that.

SITA UPANISHAD FROM ATHARVA VEDA:

3. Maya in very essence, Is Sita, of three letters formed. Called Vishnu, the world-seed, And Maya, too, is the letter i.

4. The letter sa denotes truth immortal; Achievement; Siva with his consort. Ta denotes the Queen of Speech United with Brahman, the Deliverer.

Note: 4. The letter sa denotes truth immortal; Achievement; Siva with his consort. And also note 3. Maya in very essence, Is Sita, of three letters formed. Called Vishnu, the world-seed, And Maya, too, is the letter i.

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vi. 2. 3.

The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, 'Rudra is cruel, let him shoot it.' He said, 'Let me choose a boon; let me be overlord of animals.' Therefore is Rudra overlord of animals.

Pasupati - overlord of animals.

Rudra gains this title, because Rudra sought a boon from somebody else.

This shows Rudra's subordinate position and nullifies the claims that Rudra does not pray to other Devatas.

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As usual this smacks of biased opinion. Rudra has the power to choose boons for himself. Why should others allow him so if they were not help less at the face of the Asuras?

He chooses boons for himself and uses Soma, Vishnu, Agni as arrow. But these three are Him only as indicated by:

Namo Rudraya Vishnave..... All names refer to Shiva. Sata Rudriya of Vedas make it absolutely clear.

And this is amply supported by the followings from Samhita (unlike your tortuous interpretations or stories. And none of your stories conform to these.

SELF-DEPENDENT GOD. Rudra the Universe's Father, great, lofty, blissful, achyutam, cipivista. Vishnu is born. Vishnu is a son. Whereas Rudra is Achyutam, Self dependent and universal father who is lofty and blissful.

RV HYMN CLV. Visnu-Indra.

1. To the great Hero, him who sets his mind thereon, and Visnu, praise aloud in song your draught of juice,--Gods ne'er beguiled, Who Was Borne From Noble Steed, have stood upon the lofty ridges of the hills.

3 ------HE LOWERS, THOUGH A SON, THE FATHER'S HIGHEST NAME; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven.

RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas.

10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, achyutam let us call especially as the Sage impels us.

RV Mandala 7 hymn 46

1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call.

And this caps it. Aditi-Vishnu claim and merit praise on account of Rudra.

RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all.

And do not talk of Rudra crying anymore, since:

rudaM saMsAraduHkhaM drAvayatIti rudra iti kechit.h|

He is called Rudra because He drives away the sorrow of saMsAra (ephemeral existence) which is ruda

rutiM shabdaM vedAtmAnaM brahmaNe dadAti kalpAdAviti rudra ityapare|

He is Rudra because he gives ruti or the Vedic sounds to BrahmA at the beginning of the Kalpa.

rodayati sarvamantakAla iti rudraH |

He makes everyone weep at the time of leaving a body, so he is called Rudra.

These are by Rishi Kanva

He is sarvamantakAla

Remember it well baby he is sarvamantakAla

June 10, 2005

RV II, Hymn 33

4 Let us not anger thee with (faulty) worship, Rudra, ill praise, Strong God! or mingled invocation.

yA te rudra shivA tanUraghorApApakAshinI |

tayA nastanuvA shantamayA girishantAbhichAkashIhi ||

( shrI rudram: anuvAka 1 , rik 3; shvetAshvatara Up.: 3.5 )

O Rudra! O Girishanta By that form of Yours which is not terrifying, which destroys sin by its mere remembrance, and which is all blissful, please behold us and unite us with the highest good!

Nama staraya

Salutations to Him who is the Pranava mantra; Om.

--

Regarding the shrI rudram, it is said:

vR^ixasya mUlakena shakhAH puShyanti vai yathA |

shive rudrajapAtprIte prItA evAsya devatAH |

ato rudrajapAdeva bhuktimuktiprasiddhyataH ||

Even as by (watering) the roots of a tree, all its branches are nourished, so by pleasing Shiva with the chant of the Rudram , all the gods are pleased.

--

Shri Rudram 1.1

AUM

namaste rudra manyava uto ta ishhave namaH |

namaste astu dhanvane bAhubhyAmuta te namaH ||

(Krishna Yajur Veda, Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 1)

manyave - Your anger (Manyu-Indra)

ishhave – arrow (Soma,Vishnu, Varuna, and Agni)

O Rudra! Salutations to Your anger and salutations also to your arrow. May our salutations be to Your bow and salutations (be) to Your two hands (which wield the bow and the arrow).

Vedic definitions of the word "rudra."

rudaM saMsAraduHkhaM drAvayatIti rudra iti kechit.h|

He is called Rudra because He drives away the sorrow of saMsAra (ephemeral existence) which is ruda

rutiM shabdaM vedAtmAnaM brahmaNe dadAti kalpAdAviti rudra ityapare|

He is Rudra because he gives ruti or the Vedic sounds to BrahmA at the beginning of the Kalpa.

rodayati sarvamantakAla iti rudraH |

He makes everyone weep at the time of leaving a body, so he is called Rudra.

The arrow of Rudra:

tasyA agniranIkamAsItsomaH shalyo vishhNustejanaM varuNaH parNAni iti |

The face (of that arrow) was agni, the dart-head was Soma, VishhNu its sharp edge, and VaruNa its feathers.

The PurANas describe the bow of Rudra as Meru, the mountain of gold. "kanakashailo devasya dhanuH"

The MahAbhArata says:

sa kR^itvA dhanuroMkAraM sAvitrIM jyAM maheshvaraH |

hayAMshcha chaturo vedAnsarvadevamayaM ratham.h ||

Maheshvara made the Omkara the bow, SavitrI the bow-string, the four vedas the horses, and the chariot from all the gods.

--

Shri Rudram 1.2

yA ta ishhuH shivatamA shivaM babhUva te dhanuH |

shivA sharavyA yA tava tayA no rudra mR^iDaya ||

(Krishna Yajur Veda, Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 2)

O Rudra! (By Your grace), Your arrow has become most auspicious or bestows happiness. Your bow has become auspicious. Your quiver of arrows has become auspicious. By these, the arrow, bow, and the quiver (which have turned auspicious and peaceful), do You make us happy.

--

Shri Rudram 1.6

adhyavochadadhivaktA prathamo daivyo bhishhak.h |

ahIMshcha sarvAJNjaMbhayansarvAshcha yAtudhAnyaH ||

(Shri Rudram: Anuvaka 1, Rik 6)

May He (Rudra) speak in (my) favor, who always speaks in favor of His devotees, who is the foremost among Gods, who is the origin of Gods, and who is the best of healers, while annihilating the visible enemies and also the invisible enemies.

--

Shri Rudram 1.7

asau yastAmro aruNa uta babhruH sumaN^galaH |

ye chemAM rudrA abhito dikshhu shritAH sahasrasho vaishhAM heDa Imahe ||

That Rudra who is in Sun as Aditya is deep red (coppery red) while rising. He is slightly red, He is golden-yellow and others colors. This Rudra having different colors dispels darkness at different times and is hence extremely auspicious (sumaN^galaH). Those other forms of Rudra are the rays (of the sun) and they are situated in all directions such as the east, etc., around this earth by the thousands. We appease or remove the anger resembling heat of all these Rudras of the form of the rays of the sun by devotion, salutations, and so on.

Note:

"devasya jagadupasaMhArakamUrtiShvaShTamUrtiShvAdityasyApy- antarbhAvAt.h"

Aditya (the sun) is included in the eight forms of Rudra by which He destroys the world (at the time of destruction).

--

Shri Rudram 1.8

asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH |

utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH |

utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH ||

(shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8)

That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.)

A prA dyAvAprithivI antarikShaM sUrya AtmA jagatastasthuShashcha |

sUrya (the sun), the soul (Atman) of all movable and immovable things, pervades the heaven, earth, and the intermediate region.

--

Shri Rudram 1.9

namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe |

atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 9)

namaH - salutations to

astu - may there be

nIlagrIvAya - the blue-throated One

sahasrAxAya - the thousand-eyed One (Indra )

mIDhushhe - the showerer of blessings/rain (Parjanya)

May my salutations be to the blue-throated (Rudra), He who has a thousand eyes and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas.

shvetAshvatara upaniShad

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

Rudra (Ishvara) is indeed one (unique), who rules these worlds by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity).

--

Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan

O Bhagavan (God) Rudra! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

--

Shri Rudram 1.11

avatatya dhanustvaM sahasrAxa shateshhudhe |

nishIrya shalyAnAM mukhA shivo naH sumanA bhava ||

O Rudra who are the thousand-eyed One and the Bearer of a hundred arrow-quivers! Having loosened Your bow-string and having degraded (made blunt) the tips of Your arrows, become benevolent and peaceful towards us.

--

Shri Rudram 1.13

yA te hetirmIDhushhTama haste babhUva te dhanuH |

tayA-smAnvishvatastvamayaxmayA paribbhuja ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 13)

mIDhushhTama - O Showerer of desired things

paribbhuja - protect

The weapon of Yours, (such as the sword), becomes the bow in Your hand, O Showerer of desires! With that non-injurious (bow), do You protect us everywhere.

Note: He is the protector and showers blessings

--

namo hiraNyabAhave senAnye dishAM cha pataye namaH |

Shri Rudram 2.2

Salutations to (Rudra) who has arms bearing golden ornaments (hiraNyabAhu), who is the commander of the troops (senAnI), and who is the Lord of the directions (dishAM patiH).

Note: And salutations to Him who is the Lord of (and protects) the quarters or directions.

--

Shri Rudram 2.4

namo babhlushAya vivyAdhine .annAnAM pataye namaH |

Salutations to Him who rides the Bull (babhlushAya), Him who pierces the enemies (vivyAdhine) and Him who is the Lord (pataye) of foods (annAnAm.h).

Note: Lord of Food.

--

Shri Rudram 2.6

atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke ShaShThaM yajurAha

namo bhavasya hetyai jagatAM pataye namaH || 6 ||

Salutations to the destroyer of ignorance/saMsAra (bhavasya hetyai) and salutations to the Lord of the worlds (jagatAM pataye).

Note: Lord of Jagat

--

Shri Rudram 2.7

atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke saptamaM yajurAha

namo rudrAyAtatAvine xetrANAM pataye namaH || 7 ||

Salutations to Rudra (rudrAya), who protects with an extended bow, (AtatAvine), and salutations to the protector of xetra's, (xetrANAM pataye).

Note: xetrANAM pataye. Khetra is sacred place as well as bodies

--

Shri Rudram 2.9

atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke navamaM yajurAha

namo rohitAya sthapataye vR^ixANAM pataye namaH || 9 ||

Salutations to the red complexioned One (rohitAya), to the Lord, (sthapataye) and salutations to the protector of trees (vR^ixANAM pataye).

Namo bhuvantayou varivaskrutayau shadhinam patayou namo ||

Salutations to Him who has created the world and spread it broad, the creator of riches and lover of those who are devoted to Him; to the Lord of all vegetation, salutations.

---

3rd ANUVAKA

Namah kakubhaya nishanginestenanam patayou namo |

Salutations to Him who stands prominent, the wielder of the sword; to the prince of thieves, salutations.

Note:Hara

---

4th ANUVAKA

Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo |

Salutations to you who are in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses.

Note: Female Gods

Namo ganebhyo Ganapati bhyascha vo namo |

Salutations to you Ganas and their lords.

Note: Ganapati

Namo virupebhyo vishvarupe bhyascha vo namo

Salutations to you who assume grotesque and monstrous forms (virupebhyo) and other diverse shapes (vishvarupe).

Note: Viswarupa

----

5th ANUVAKA

Namo bhavaya cha Rudraya cha

Salutations to Him who is the source of all things and to Him who is the destroyer of all ills.

Note: The Consciousness, Bhava

Namah sharvaya cha pashupatayou cha

Salutations to the destroyer and to the protector of all beings in bondage.

Namo nilagrivaya cha shiti kanthaya cha

Salutations to Him whose throat is black and whose throat is also white.

Namah sahasrakshaya cha shatadhanvane cha

Salutations to Him who has a Thousand eyes and a hundred bows (Indra).

Namo giri shaya cha sipivishtaya cha

Salutations to Him who dwells on the mount and who is in the form of Vishnu.

Namo middhushta maya ceshumate cha

Salutations to Him who showers blessings (Parjanya) very much and who bears arrows.

Namo hrasvaya cha vamanaya cha

Salutations to Him who assumes a small size, and Him who is in the form of a vamana (Vishnu).

Namo bruhate cha varshiyase cha

Salutations to the great and majestic one, to Him who is full of all excellence.

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

Nama Ashave chajiraya cha

Salutations to Him who pervades all and moves swiftly.

-----

Sixth Anuvaka

Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all.

Namo Madhya maya chapagalbhaya cha

Salutations to Him who appears in the middle, and who appears undeveloped.

Namah shobhyaya cha, prati saryaya cha

Salutations to Him who is born in the mixed world of good and bad and in things that move.

Namo yamyaya cha, kshemyaya cha

Salutations to Yama and Khsema.

Nama shlokyaya chavasanyaya cha

Salutations to Him who is praised by the Vedic Mantras and who is expounded in the Vedantic Upanishads.

Namah shravaya cha pratisravaya cha

Salutations to Him who is sound and the echo of the sound (Vak).

Nama shuraya cha, chavabhindate cha

Salutations to the warrior, He who pierces his enemies.

Namah shrutaya cha shrutasenaya cha

Salutations to Him who is praised in the Vedas (Shrutaya) and whose army (Devas) is also praised.

---------------------------

Seventh Anuvaka

Namo dutaya cha, prahitaya cha

Salutations to Him who is in the form of the messenger (Dutaya- Agni) and the representative sent for special purposes.

Namo vastavyaya cha vastupaya cha.

Salutations to Him who is household wealth and the guardian deity of the household (Vastospati).

---------------------------

Eighth Anuvaka

Namah somaya cha Rudraya cha

Salutations to Him who is with His consort Uma.

.Note: Soma

Nama shangaya cha pashupatayou cha

Salutations to Him who brings happiness and who is the Lord of all creatures.

Note: Pasupati

Namo hantre cha haniyase cha

Salutations to Him who is in the form of everyone who slays, and who kills all at the time of Pralaya.

Nama staraya

Salutations to Him who is the Pravana mantra; Om.

Note: OMKAR

Namash shambhave cha mayo bhave cha

Salutations to Him who is the source of happiness here and hereafter.

Note: Shambhu

Namah shankaraya cha mayaskaraya cha

Note: Sankara

Salutations to Him who is inherently of the nature of conferring happiness directly in this world and the world hereafter.

Namah Shivaya cha Shivataraya cha

Salutations to Him the auspicious one, who is more auspicious than all others.

NAMAH SHIVAYA CHA SHIVATARAYA CHA

Namah paryaya chavaryaya cha

Salutations to Him who is in the other shore and on this shore.

Note: Who is of this world and the other.

Namah prataranaya chottaranaya cha

Salutations to Him who ferries men over the sins and evils of Samsara (the Illusions of the world), and who by the grant of knowledge ferries them over Samsara altogether.

Note: Lord You shower blessing and give Mukti

Nama ataryaya chaladyaya cha

Salutations to Him who is born again and again in Samsara and who tastes the fruits of Karmas in the form of Jiva.

-----------------------------

Ninth Anuvaka

Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha

Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace.

Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo

Salutations to you who shower wealth and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods.

SALUTATIONS TO YOU WHO SHOWER WEALTH AND WHO DWELL IN THE HEARTS OF THE GODS.

------

Tenth Anuvaka

Ya te Rudra Shiva tanu Shiva vishvaha bheshaji, Shiva Rudrasya

Bhesaji tasya no mruda jivase ||

Oh Lord Rudra! Peaceful and auspicious, more highly auspicious, most highly auspicious uproots ignorance and the misery of samsara, by that gracious form of your make us lead a full and happy life.

Mruda no Rudrota no maya skrudhi kshayadviraya

Namasa vidhema te, yacchamcha yoscha manurayaje pita

Tadshyama tava Rudra pranitau ||

Lord Rudra! Confer on us happiness in this world, and in the next. You who has destroyed our sins, we shall serve and worship you by our salutations. That freedom from sorrow which Manu, our progenitor, sought for and the happiness which he obtained, we shall taste it, if You are inclined and gracious to us.

Stuhi shrutam garta sadam yuvanam mrugannabhima mupahat numugram, mruda jaritre Rudra Satvano anyante asmanniva pantu senaha ||

I praise you the famous one, seated in the heart, the ever-youthful, terrible like the lion, fierce for the purpose of destruction. Lord Rudra, having been praised by us, let your armies strike at others than us.

Midhushthama shivatama shivo nah sumana bhava parame vriksha Ayudhan nidhaya krittim vasana achara pinakam bibhradagahi |

Supreme showerer of blessings. Supreme auspicious One! Be auspicious and beneficent, and bear goodwill to us. Place your threatening and hurtful weapons on some tall and distant tree. Approach us wearing your elephant hide garment. Come bearing your Pinaka bow.

Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah ||

Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies.

Note: Namaste astu bhagavaha

Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah |

Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi ||

In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us.

Prayer:

Lord Rudra, you are TATPURUSA with thousand eyes and thousand arms. And TATPURUSA is you. Bless us Lord. Love us Lord. Do not keep us in shadow.

June 10, 2005

**********

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

--------------------------

here Sayana says "When Visnu for your energy, strode wide those three great steps of His,........"

Visnu did that for the sake of Indra's energy. Sayana says so but u consider it the other way. even Bhagavat Puran states that Visnu took those steps to help Visnu

**********

I had replied to it. But then a smile came.

Sayana ever wrote in english?

Well God does it again and again but chitraketus are incorrigible.

BinduMadhav · June 10, 2005

Thiruvengadam wrote:

"i have learnt that its of no use trying to wake a person who is pretending to sleep.....this will be my last post to u...."

Oh, OK. All the best to you. You have a tremendous amount to learn, as I understand it. You should perhaps stay away from the discussion group and use your time wisely.

I learnt about your lack of knowledge when you wrote that you are 'disappointed' with Rajasekar's explanation of the word 'Krishna'. Did you ever check a good Samskrit dictionary (like Vaman Apte's) to find out the true meaning of the word Krishna? It is true that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Lord of the universe; but the meaning of the word Krishna IS dark skinned male. KrishnA is a dark skinned female.

And then you misquote verses by saying 'Sarvam Shivamayam Jagat'. The correct and original one is 'Sarvam Vishnumayam Jagat'.

{how funny it is to learn from u that when Vishnu is in yoga nidra, He is aiding the world but when shiva is in yoga u call Him to be meditating on Hari...very funny....go on ur way and one Day hope God opens ur eyes...}

That is MY interpretation. You have NO RIGHT to question it. You are welcome to disagree with it, and you are certainly welcome to debate it; but now that you are no longer on speaking terms (GRIN), I guess it does not matter.

{{suragurusuravarapUjitalingam

suravanapushpasadArchitalingam|

parAtparam paramAtmakalingam

tat praNamAmi sadAShivalingam||

I bow before that Sadashivalinga, which is worshipped by devas and their gurus with flowers from the divine garden;

which is the Transedent Being and the Supreme Self (paramAtma)}}

Yes, I know Lingashtakam. I also have studied Bilvashtakam, Shivananda Lahari, Soundarya Lahari, Lalita Sahasranamam, Shiva Sahasranamam, and of course, many verses related to Lord Vishnu. Plus I have studied many parts of the Vedas and Upanishads. Thank you all the same.

Just because one poet wrote a poem in praise of one god, does not make that god supreme.

{if u still decide to call Shiva as a Demi God then its ur fate...i cant help (the above quote clearly calls Shiva as Transcendent and ParamAthama (supreme self)}

A demigod is not necessarily a bad term. But then, how can I explain it to a guy who thinks 'rebel' is a bad word? Basava was a rebel, as also was Sri Ramanuja, the Sikh gurus, the great Gautama Buddha himself and many others. They all rebelled in some way, major or minor, against the tradition and helped advance the Hindu philosophy. Did you know that?

{all the best.....u shall no more hear from me....}

All the best to you too. I, however, cannot promise not to reply to your notes. If I feel like replying, I will. You may not be on speaking terms with me, child, but I won't stop talking to you. Don't worry, with time, maturity will come; with maturity, added knowledge and the ability to carry on a debate on a civil level.

{(in tamil there is a proverb Dhustanan kanda doora velagu- if u see a bad person go as far as possible from him.... }

Yes, yes. The same proverb exists in Kannada: Dushtara Kandare Doora Iru. If you think I am a Dushta just because I have my own mind and my own opinions, then only Lord Siva has to help you. Here, let me teach you a verse on Lord Siva from MahAnArAyana Upanishad:

IshAnah SarvavidyAnAm

Ishvarah SarvabhUtAnAm

BrahmAdhipatih Brahmanodhipatih

BrahmA Shivo mE Astu SadAshivOm

Shiva is supposed to be the Lord of all Vidyas. Did you know that? Your lesson for the day.

BinduMadhav · June 10, 2005

Shyam wrote:

{i might not be able to argue with these people as i have some essential work to do in the coming weeks. but u refer to the topic 'Narayana is Supreme' in this website and note the speciality of Naraya'na' name quoted by Saranathan. and also the satva vedanta pratyaya nyaya. it will help u a lot in further arguments with these non-vedic veda translators(because they will not go by the various nyayas nor will they try to understand the logic and grammar behind interpretations.)

let Narayana bless u in ur efforts and the blessings of my Acharya and ur Acharya give u the strength to argue with them. }

Shyam, thank you for the note. I will read all the information under "Narayana is Supreme". I won't stop arguing with these Saivites/Advaitins. My Acharya told me to stand firmly when I see the wrong things being said about Lord Krishna.

May Lord Krishna bless you in all your efforts so that you can complete your essential work successfully and rejoin us.

BinduMadhav · June 10, 2005

Atanu wrote:

{Nothing is as low as your thoughts of Shiva -- demi god, pitch fork holding, water oozing etc. etc.}

Siva IS a demigod. A demigod is not necessarily a bad term. Why don't you understand the meanings of words before you jump to conclusions? Pitch fork, all right, is Trishul and the water is Ganges. I thought I was quite clever in describing Siva as pitch fork holding and water oozing, but apparently it hit a nerve again, eh?

{Nothing is as low as 'demented fool' that you used. }

OK, and then I apologized to Mr.Rajasekar. How many apologies have YOU offered for YOUR insults?

{If you are now ticked, know that this is very mild compared to the plight of Dakshas -- who knowingly insult Shiva.}

I am not at all ticked, my good man. It takes someone a lot superior to you to tick me off. Let me explain it a bit. For someone to be able to tick me, that person first has to command respect from me. So far, I have not developed much respect for your opinions, although I have to agree that you seem to have access to some cool websites (assuming that all you are writing is accurate). So you do not have the power to tick me off. Show some true knowledge, maturity and honesty; perhaps I will develop respect for you, although I will continue to say that Lord Vishnu/Krishna is the Supreme Reality.

{You have been provided with scriptures but you pay no heed and you continue to abuse Shiva. Note below who are advanced in spiritual consciousness.}}

Hmmm. Are you saying that you are more advanced?

{Bindu, I did not abuse you.}

Really? Didn't I provide quotes from you that gives that indication?

But I am wasting my breath here. I never knew that Siva-Premi's were so hypocritical.

June 10, 2005

**********

27 When Visnu, through thine energy, strode wide those three great steps of his, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on.

--------------------------

here Sayana says "When Visnu for your energy, strode wide those three great steps of His,........"

Visnu did that for the sake of Indra's energy. Sayana says so but u consider it the other way. even Bhagavat Puran states that Visnu took those steps to help Visnu

**********

I did not know that Sayana wrote in english. Thnks.

June 10, 2005

Maha Up.

I-7. Again, Narayana, desiring something else, thought. From his forehead a person arose with three eyes and a trident, having glory, fame, truth, celibacy, austerity, detachment, mind, lordship, seven Vyahritis (Bhur etc.,) along with Pranava, Rik and other Vedas, all metres is his body –, he is the Mahesvara.

Iv-83-87. Be devoted to Samvid, with single attention, giving up the non-spiritual attitude and unaffected by the condition of the world. In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah ||

Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies.

rodayati sarvamantakAla iti rudraH |

June 12, 2005

1. If Shiva is Supreme, why did he ask for a boon to become Pasupathi?

2. If Shiva is Supreme, why did he call himself 'anapahatapapma'(not cleansed of sins) in Shatapatha Brahmana? Subala Upanishad identifies Brahman as 'apahatapapma'(not touched by sins).

3. If Shiva is Supreme, why is it that Shiva is the secondary consumer of Halahala poison? while Vayu consumed it directly, Shiva consumed only the grounded portion.

4. If Shiva is Supreme, why is it that Veda says that Rudra attained his Rudra-strength only after knowing that Visnu is the Iswara.

5. If Shiva is Supreme, why is it that Brhadaranyaka Upanishad identifies Rudra along with the Kshatriya devatas created by Brahman. (in the third aranyaka)

6. If Shiva is Supreme, why does Kathopanishad states clearly '...paramapnothi tadVisno paramampadam'(third valli) which means that the Muktatma will reach the abode of Visnu which is beyond Samsara. thus it is Vaikuntha which is the place beyond Samsara and not Kailasa.

7. If Shiva is Supreme, why is it that veda nowhere calls Rudra as Parambrahman. Only Narayana is identified as Parambrahman.

8. If you argue that Shiva is identified with Brahman(not Parabrahman) then you have to take note of the fact that Akaasa is also called as Brahman in many places but that will not make Sky as the Supreme Reality.

9. Brahman is also called as 'Keshanta'.(Taittreya) Kesantha means 'ONE WHO IS THE "ANTA" OF 'KA'(BRAHMADEVA) AND 'ISHA'(SHIVA)'.

10. If Shiva is Brahman, then why is it that in Harivamsa(part of Mahabharata) Shiva himself says "because You are the Lord of Ka(Brahma) and Isha,who is myself, You are called 'Kesava'."

11. The Veda also clearly states that the bow and arrow for TripuraSamhara was made at first and only after that did the Devas select Shiva for shooting the arrow. So the Devas are not Shiva's weapons or energies.

12. The reason given for selecting Shiva is that he is CRUEL which is an attribute of TAMASIC PERSON. Therefore Shiva cannot be the ParamaPurusha of Purusha Sukta as Purusha Sukta clearly states that Parama Purusha is 'TAMASATU PARE' - BEYOND TAMAS - has no Tamo Guna.

13. The point is that names attained by naming ceremony cannot make a person equal to the person who is originally entitled to that name. Same is the case with Rudra as pointed out in Shatapatha but you fail to understand.

14. Indra prayed to Visnu to help him kill Vrtra and he killed Vrtra only with Visnu's help as stated in Rg Veda's 8th mandala. This proves Visnu's supremacy over Visnu. Also Visnu is the Supreme Deva(Visnu Paramas) and hence it proves that he is superior to Indra.

15. Mudgalopanishad gives the meaning of Purusha Sukta in its Purusha Samhita and it identifies Parama Purusha with Visnu. ALso it accepts Visnu as an avatar of Narayana and that Narayana and Visnu are one and same. SO this is the Vedic meaning of Purusha Sukta.

16. Purusha Sukta's 17th mantra says "Data(BrahmaDeva) meditated upon the Purusha, Indra(Sakra), the Brahman knower and also the devatas of the eight directions(pradishaschatasrah). ONLY BY KNOWING HIM CAN ONE ATTAIN MOKSHA AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY/KNOWLEDGE."

Indra meditated upon Purusha who is Visnu and so also Brahma Deva. ALso Shiva is the deity of Isana direction and hence he too meditated on Visnu. Sayana, an advaitin, too has accepted that the devatas of the eight directions meditate upon the Purusha. This also proves that ParamaPurusha is different from Shiva.

17. "eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |"

in this line the term 'Hi' refers to prasiddhi. And hence this line is an Anuvada of another line. the Provada has to found to make meaning. the Provada will be 'Divyo deva eko Narayanah'(Subala Upanishad). both the lines are closely related. the anuvada has to follow the provada and hence 'Rudra' of Shvetasvatara refers to Narayana and not BrahmaDeva's son Rudra.

18. Chandogya Upanishad also says ' Virupakshaya Brahmana Putraya Jyeshtaya Srestaya'

thus Rudra is Brahma's son(Brahmana Putraya) as stated in Shatapatha and Shailali Brahmanas. Even Shatarudriya says that Rudra was born from BrahmaDeva's tears. Thus Rudra is not unborn while Narayana is unborn. Visnu being the avatar of Narayana will come under the clause 'ajayamano bahudha vijayathe'.

19. Uttaranuvaka of Purusha Sukta is verily a part of Taittreya and even Sankara's Bhashya explains it. Hence it is authoritative and not a latter addition. But Sita Upanishad has not been taken as an authority by any prominent Acarya and hence they cannot be treated as Pramana.

20. Concepts from Trivikrama and Sri Upanishads are found in the texts of early works of Srivaishnava and Dvaita Acharyas belonging to 11th,12th and 13th centuries and hence they are absolute pramanas. let me quote in the next post what they say about Rudra and various other devatas.

June 12, 2005

Trivikrama Upanishad:

1.1. “ Salutations to Vishnu. Only You are Narayana. Only You are Parambrahman. You are the first avatar of Narayana.”

Note: Vishnu is the first avatar of Narayana.

1.15. “ Salutations to Vishnu. You reside in the hearts of all devatas. You reside in the hearts of Brahma and Rudra. You reside in the hearts of Indra and Soma.”

Note: Visnu resides in the hearts of Rudra and Brahma.

1.17.“ Salutations to Vishnu. Only You are Sarvaantaryami. Only You are the Atma of Sat(Jivatmas) and Asat(Prakriti).”

Note: Only Vishnu is Sarvaantaryami.

2.6“ Salutations to Vishnu. When You took those three great steps, Brahma Deva cleansed Your Feet. From Your Feet, Ganga was born. Rudra collected Ganga on his head and became pure.”

Note: Rudra ‘became’ pure.

2.7. “Salutations to Vishnu. BrahmaDeva cleansed Your feet. RudraDeva collected the water on his head. Only You are the MahatBhoota.”

2.7“Salutations to Vishnu. There is no one who is equal to You or greater than You (na samaanaadhika). Only You are SarvaKarana, SarvaRakshaka and SarvaSamharaka.”

Note: Vishnu is Sarvakarana, SarvaRakshaka and SarvaSamharaka. Thus ‘SarvaSamharaka’ is Visnu and not Rudra Deva.

Sri Upanishad says

1.3“Salutations to Lakshmi. You are VishnuPatni. You are the Patni of Parambrahman…….”

1.4“All that are feminine have Lakshmi’s Amsha . All that are masculine have Vishnu’s Amsha………..”

1.7“You have all the powers that Vishnu has. Vishnu gave You such powers. You are the most dearest consort of Visnu. Salutations to You, Lakshmi”

1.18“ Brahma attained his power by singing the praise of Your Husband, Vishnu. Rudra attained his powers by singing the praise of Vishnu. Rudra attained the power to command great female deities (mahadevis) by singing Your praise. “

Note: Rudra attained his powers from Vishnu and Lakshmi.

2.12“ O golden coloured Vishnu Patni ! You reside in the left eye. Vishnu, Your husband, resides in the right eye.”

Note: this mantra shows it clearly that the Indra and Indrani who are talked about in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad are Vishnu and Lakshmi.

2.13“ You reside with Your husband, Vishnu, in everything. Thus You are Sarvaantaryaami. But You attained this power from Vishnu. Hence the only Sarvaantaryaami is Vishnu.”

2.16“Mother! You take us to Your Husband who is the Father of everything. Help us to attain Moksha. Only by knowing Your Husband can we attain Moksha. There is no other way.”

Note: only by knowing Vishnu can one attain Moksha and there is no other way.

Uttaranuvaka of Purusha Sukta in Taittreya also says:

“Only by knowing Him can Moksha be attained. There is no other way.” (‘tamevam vidvaan ………….. vidyatheyanaya’).

June 12, 2005

1.156.02 He who presents (offerings) to Visnu, the ancient, the creator, the recent, the self-born; he who celebrates the great birth of that mighty one; he verily possessed of abundance, attains (the station) that is to be sought (by all).

1.156.03 Hymners, propitiate of your own accord that ancient Visnu, since you know him as the germ of sacrifice, cognizant of his greatness, celebrate his name; may we, Visnu, enjoy your favour.

as for the verses regarding Indra's superiority, here I will give proper interpretation based on Rangaramanuja muni's translation which is based on Vishistadvaita ot which I belong.

8.012.27 When your (younger brother) Visnu by (his) strength stepped his three paces, then verily your beloved horses bore you.

as for what Sayana has said '...... for your energy' can also be taken as correct because it is based on the nyayas described in Purvamimamsa shastras to interpret the vedic mantras and does not go against it.

June 12, 2005

Very nice. May we know which Veda or Vedas these two Upanishads are from? Trivikrama and Sri are not even mentioned among the 108 valid upanishads by Lord Rama (in Muktiko Upanishad). And as usual nothing is cited from the Samhita sections.

And whereas this Trivikrama up. Says: “ Salutations to Vishnu. You reside in the hearts of all devatas. You reside in the hearts of Brahma and Rudra. You reside in the hearts of Indra and Soma.”

In contrast, Yajur Veda Samhita has this in Sata Rudriya:

Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha: Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace.

Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo: Salutations to you who shower wealth and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods.

Saubhagya-Lakshmi Upanishad is included in the Rig-Veda but there is nothing of the sort as cited by the guest. In fact in Saubhagya-Lakshmi Upanishad Narayana says as below:

I-3: ---------The divinity is the Fire which is Sri. The seed is ‘hiranyavarnam’.

II-5: In Anahata, then, Resonant with strange notes, a sound is heard. Sacred becomes the yogin’s body; thus With splendour filled and odour heavenly He is ill no longer;

--------

II-7: Poised in lotus seat and others, too, Firm established must the Yogin be. The knot of Vishnu, then rent asunder Delight wells up supreme.

II-8: Beyond Anahata, ‘the unstruck note’, Rises the drum’s resounding sound; With energy, piercing Rudra’s knot The maddala’s note is heard.

Narayana himself says that beyond Anahata (Vishnu’s flute), the Maddala (Rudra’s drum) is heard.

This is also proved from Varaha Upanishad belonging to the Krishna-Yajur-Veda, wherein Vasudeva himself explains:

60. It is only through Kumbhaka that Kumbhaka should be firmly mastered. Within it is Parama-Shiva. That (Vayu) which is non-motionless should be shaken again through Kantha-Mudra (throat-posture).

--------

65. Then having pierced Brahma-Granthi, he pierces Vishnu-Granthi; then he pierces Rudra-Granthi.

A few citations from genuine Upanishads belonging to different Vedas as given below.

shvetAshvatara upaniShad (Krishna Yajur Veda)

eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

JABALYUPANISHHAD OF THE SAMA VEDA:

sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH

sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH |

MANDYUKA UP.

12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Sivam and the advaitam. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

JABALOPANISHAD BELONGING TO THE SUKLA-YAJUR-VEDA

II-1. Thereafter the sage Atri (son of the creator Brahma) asked of Yajnavalkya: ‘How am I to realize the Self which is infinite and unmanifest ?’ (To this) Yajnavalkya replied: That Avimukta Lord Siva as the redeemer is to be worshipped; the Self which is infinite and unmanifest, is established in the Avimukta Ishvara, possessed of attributes.

III-1. Then the discipline students (Brahmacharins of Yajnavalkya) asked him: ‘Pray, tell us, what is that mantra by reciting which one attains immortality ?’ He replied: ‘By (reciting) Satarudriya’. These mantras are indeed the names of (Rudra to achieve) immortality. By (reciting) these (mantras) one becomes immortal.

KAIVALYOPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE KRISHNA-YAJUR-VEDA.

7. Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches Him who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya).

9. He alone is all that was, and all that will be, the Eternal; knowing Him, one transcends death; there is no other way to freedom.

23-24. For me there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air, nor ether. Thus realising the Paramatman, who lies in the cavity of the heart, who is without parts, and without a second, the Witness of all, beyond both existence and non-existence – one attains the Pure Paramatman Itself.

25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares. Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self. One who belongs to the highest order of life should repeat this always or once (a day).

MAITREYOPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE SAMA-VEDA

III-12. I am of the form which fills everything, possessing the characteristics of Existence, Consciousness and Bliss. I am of the form of all holy places, I am the supreme Atman, I am Shiva.

III-13. I am devoid of aim and non-aim and I am the bliss which has no extinction. I am beyond measurer and measure and the thing measured; I am Shiva.

III-14. I am not the world, I witness all and I am devoid of eyes, etc., I am immense, I am awake, I am serene and I am Hara (Shiva).

SVETASVATAROPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE KRISHNA-YAJUR-VEDA

3.2

Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time.

3.3

His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester.

4

He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

3.13

The Purusha, no bigger than a thumb, is the inner Self, ever seated in the heart of man. He is known by the mind, which controls knowledge and is perceived in the heart. They who know Him become immortal.

4.12

He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect!

4.18

When ignorance is dispelled, there is neither day nor night, neither being nor non-being. There is only that Auspicious One who is imperishable (akshara), and who is worthy of being adored by the creator. From Him has proceeded the ancient wisdom.

MAHA NARAYANA UPANISHAD

I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) -----

II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme --------

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

XIV-1: Verily Aditya is He; ------

Thus by these three the threefold knowledge alone shines. He who is within the sun is the Golden Person.

XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all:

Nidhanapataye Namah !

Nidhanapataantikaya Namah !

Urdhvaya Namah !

Urdhva Lingaya Namah !

Hiranyaya Namah !

Hiranya Lingaya Namah !

Suvarnaya Namah !

Suvarna Lingaya Namah !

Divyaya Namah !

Divya Lingaya Namah !

Bhavaya Namah !

Bhava Lingaya Namah !

Sarvaya Namah !

Sarva Lingaya Namah !

Shivaya Namah !

Shiva Lingaya Namah !

Jvalaya Namah !

Jvala Lingaya Namah !

Atmaya Namah !

AtmaLingaya Namah !

Paramaya Namah !

Parama Lingaya Namah !

------------------

XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, --------

XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such.

LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death.

MAHA UPANISHAD

Iv-83-87. ---a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

SITA UPANISHAD FROM ATHARVA VEDA:

2. Being the first cause Sita is known as Prakriti; of Pranava, too, She is cause And so is named Prakriti.

3. Maya in very essence, Is Sita, of three letters formed. Called Vishnu, the world-seed, And Maya, too, is the letter i.

4. The letter sa denotes truth immortal; Achievement; Siva with his consort. Ta denotes the Queen of Speech United with Brahman, the Deliverer.

Note: 4. The letter sa denotes truth immortal; Achievement; Siva with his consort. And also note 3. Maya in very essence, Is Sita, of three letters formed. Called Vishnu, the world-seed, And Maya, too, is the letter i.

DEVI UPANISHAD, INCLUDED IN THE ATHARVA-VEDA

5. I uphold Soma, Tvastir, Pusan and Bhaga, The wide-stepping Vishnu, Brahma, Prajapati.

8. Those gods said: Salutation to the Goddess, the great Goddess ! To Siva, the auspicious, salutation, for ever more. To blessed Prakriti, salutation ! Ever to Her we bow.

11. To holy Siva, to Daksha’s daughter, To Aditi and Sarasvati, To Skanda’s Mother, Vishnu’s Power, To Night of death by Brahma lauded, We render obeisance.

12. Know we, Great Lakshmi, Goddess of good Fortune; On all fulfilment do we meditate. May the Goddess inspire us !

20. Seed all-powerful of the Goddess’ mantra, Is sky, conjoined with ‘i’ and fire, With crescent moon adorned.

Note: Devi, Skanda’s mother, Vishnu’s power (Lakshmi) has seed in the sky conjoined with "i" (Maya) and fire, who is crescent moon adorned.

Rudra-Hridayopanishad belonging to the Krishna-Yajur-Veda.

Hearing these words, Sri Veda Vyasa replied thus:

Rudra is the embodiment of all Devas. All devas are merely different manifestations of Sri Rudra Himself. On the right side of Rudra, there is the sun, then the four-headed Brahma, and then three Agnis (fires). On the left side, there exist Sri Umadevi, and also Vishnu and Soma (moon).

Uma Herself is the form of Vishnu. Vishnu Himself is the form of the moon. Therefore, those who worship Lord Vishnu, worship Siva Himself. And those who worship Siva, worship Lord Vishnu in reality. Those who envy and hate Sri Rudra, are actually hating Sri Vishnu. Those who decry Lord Siva, decry Vishnu Himself.

Rudra is the generator of the seed. Vishnu is the embryo of the seed. Siva Himself is Brahma and Brahma Himself is Agni. Rudra is full of Brahma and Vishnu. The whole world is full of Agni and Soma. The masculine gender is Lord Siva. The feminine gender is Sri Bhavani Devi. All the mobile and immobile creation of this universe, is filled up with Uma and Rudra. The Vyakta is Sri Uma, and the Avyakta is Lord Siva. The combination of Uma and Sankara is Vishnu.

----------

The effect is Vishnu. The action is Brahma. The cause is Siva. For the benefit of the worlds. Rudra has taken these three forms.

But all these three, the bow, the arrow and the target are not different from that Sadasiva. There do not shine the bodies of the sun, moon or the stars. There does not blow the wind, there do not exist many Devatas. He, the One Lord only exists. He only, the Purity of purities, shines for ever and ever.

Narada-Parivrajakopanishad, included in the Atharva-Veda

VIII-4. This (Brahma-Pranava) is the prop of all, the supreme effulgence and the lord of all –thus (the sages with true vision) look upon it. It consists of all gods and the prop of all universe (the Lord) is in it.

VIII-5. It consists of all the syllables; it is the Time; it is composed of all the scripture and is the Shiva. It is the most excellent of all the Vedas and consists of (the essence) of all the Upanishads; this (Om, the Atman) should be sought.

Varaha Upanishad belonging to the Krishna-Yajur-Veda

37. That Paramahamsa (ascetic) who, though living in the world, keeps aloof from human congregation as from serpent, who regards a beautiful woman as a (living) corpse and the endless sensual objects as poison and who has abandoned all passion and is indifferent towards all objects is no other than Vasudeva, (viz.,) myself.

38. This is Satya (Truth). This is nothing but truth. It is truth alone that is now said. I am Brahman, the truth. There is naught else but I.

32. Shiva alone is Guru; Shiva alone is Vedas; Shiva alone is Lord; Shiva alone is I; Shiva alone is all. There is none other than Shiva.

33. The undaunted Brahmana having known Him (Shiva) should attain wisdom. One need not utter many words as they but injure the organ of speech.

39. He should contemplate upon his Atman as Shiva and then as being bathed by nectar. In the central part of each spoke, the Yogin should commence to concentrate Bala (will or strength).

To end it, let us remember:

Mahanarayanopanishad: Namo Rudraya Vishnave....

And also remember

Rig Veda 10.191.3

sa vishnu sa shiva sa rudra so'kshara sah

Some people never hold Rig Veda infallible. It is their misfortune.

June 12, 2005

Why are you so concerned about supremacy? Only the insecure do so.

MAHANARAYANOPANISHAD: NAMO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE....

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

What else is there to say?

**********

1.156.02 He who presents (offerings) to Visnu, the ancient, the creator, the recent, the self-born; he who celebrates the great birth of that mighty one; he verily possessed of abundance, attains (the station) that is to be sought (by all).

************

I think Sayana has translated the above in English? Isn’t it? The correct translation is as below:

HYMN CLVI. Visnu

2 He who brings gifts to him the Ancient and the Last, to Visnu who ordains, together with his Spouse, Who tells the lofty birth of him the Lofty One, shall verily surpass in glory e'en his peer.

Instead of ‘ancient and the last’ as in this translation, the guest gives ‘creator, the recent, the self born;’ etc.

That the second translation is correct is proven by the followings:

RV HYMN CLV. Visnu-Indra.

1. To the great Hero, him who sets his mind thereon, and Visnu, praise aloud in song your draught of juice,--Gods ne'er beguiled, Who Was Borne From Noble Steed, have stood upon the lofty ridges of the hills.

3 ------HE LOWERS, THOUGH A SON, THE FATHER'S HIGHEST NAME; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven.

Book 1 HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas.

34 I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is the centre of the world, I ask thee. I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of highest heaven where Speech abideth.

35 This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.

THE STALLION'S SEED PROLIFIC IS THE SOMA; THIS BRAHMAN HIGHEST HEAVEN WHERE SPEECH ABIDETH.

RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

4 Flow for prosperity and constant Vigour, flow on for happiness and high perfection.

This is the wish of these friends assembled: this is my wish, O Soma Pavamana.

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven:

Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

Then instead of Akshara or achyutam ‘ancient and the last’ is said and definitely a birth is mentioned. The Param is ever existent, never has a birth.

When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.)

RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas.

10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, UNDECAYING let us call especially as the Sage impels us.

MAHANARAYANOPANISHAD: NAMO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE....

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

What else is there to say?

Only remember this:

RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

June 13, 2005

---------------------------

Very nice. May we know which Veda or Vedas these two Upanishads are from? Trivikrama and Sri are not even mentioned among the 108 valid upanishads by Lord Rama (in Muktiko Upanishad). And as usual nothing is cited from the Samhita sections.

---------------------------

now atanu know one thing for sure. Muktito Upanishad is not a pramana Upanishad and no prominent Acharya of ancient periods have referred to it. also there is an Upanishad called Allahpanishad which praises Allah. It was written by some hypocrite.

only those Upanishads which have been accepted by prominent Gurus of ancient times should be taken as Pramana. Also I have a list of 108 upanishads given in Sri Hayavadhana Upanishad of Rg Veda. they do not have Sita Upanishad,Rudropanishad,Varaha Upanishad are not found.

Trivikrama Upanishad and Sri Upanishad belong to Rg Veda.

---------------------------

MANDYUKA UP.

12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Sivam and the advaitam. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

----------------------------

you have not answered the main question yet. Siva is an attained name of Rudra deva. refer to my earlier question on that.

also Visnu Sahasranama of Mahabharata(itihasa-not a purana) has the name 'Siva' and it is a Pramana acceptedby everyone including Adi Sankara.

the Narayana Sukta says 'shivam achyutham'. the word 'shivam' is found in the mantra of Mandukya Upanishad. 'Sivam' is an attribute. it means mangalmaya. even if u consider it to be name then also Atharvasikha Upanishad says that the deity of the fourth matra is Parama Purusha and from Purusha Sukta of Taittreya it is clear that ParamaPurusha is Visnu. the matter ends there. I need not repeat what has been said many times regarding the various nyayas.

---------------------------

3.13

The Purusha, no bigger than a thumb, is the inner Self, ever seated in the heart of man. He is known by the mind, which controls knowledge and is perceived in the heart. They who know Him become immortal.

---------------------------

this mantra from Svetashvatara is a repeat of what is told in Narayana Sukta. the person in the inner self is Purusha of Purusha Sukta as can be inferred from the mantra as the mantra also says that those who know Him attain moksha.

also the Narayana sukta says that the person in the inner self is Narayana. also because Shiva is 'Anapahatapapma' (not cleansed of sins) Shiva is not an avatar of Narayana. the matter ends there. attained names cannot give Shiva the glory and power of the true owner of the names for whom these names are natural. If u do not understand this simple logic then u r not fit to argue about Brahman nor can u take part in sadas. attend some Vidvad Sadas where philosophical discussions take place and u will understand how to interpret the Vedas and how to argue.

also in the name of giving correct interpretation u give wrong translations. now Sayana wrote his commentary in Sanskrit and Shyam has translated it in English. u make silly things out of it.

u r quoting vedas in english and i can ask u in return whether vedas are in english. don't make a fool of urself.

Upanishads are the basis for the Brahman knowers and Samhita are meant to propitate various deities. also shatapatha is Brahmana and it says shiva is a jiva by referring to him as 'Anapahatapapma'. but u will not even try to reinterpret it. the vakyas have been quoted before and try to reinterpret properly to suit ur arguments if u can. u have not answered a single point of argument.

also I will quote hereafter only from the Dasopanishads to prove my point. Sankara and Madhava have written commentaries oly on these ten Upanishads. so they are absolute pramanas and if u want to be true in ur arguments then restrict urself to these 10 Upanishads and let us see whose points are stronger and correct.

June 13, 2005

**********

3.13

The Purusha, no bigger than a thumb, is the inner Self, ever seated in the heart of man. He is known by the mind, which controls knowledge and is perceived in the heart. They who know Him become immortal.

---------------------------

this mantra from Svetashvatara is a repeat of what is told in Narayana Sukta.

*********

Yes, shrutis do not contradict.

MAHANARAYANOPANISHAD: NAMO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE....

RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

What else is there to say?

Explain Vishnu's birth and reconcile to "Sarvamantakala".

June 14, 2005

Vasudeva is all this. Namoh namah

Aditi is all this Namoh Namah

AUM is all this. Om Namoh Namah

Omkaresvar Namoh Namoh

Those who create supremacy posts and those who participate in such discussions (including me) are ignorant fools.

Ekam Advaitam Lord has no second. How will He claim I am supreme?

Omnipresent Lord is cipivista, how will He say, this is supreme and that is not?

Infinite Lord is not limited that He can claim I am this and this is supreme.

From lower planes jivas speculate on finite petty concepts.

Mandyuka

The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.

Lord is neither a being nor a non being – indescribable.

Omkaresvar Namoh Namoh.

BinduMadhav · June 14, 2005

Dear Guest,

You have raised very good points here.

{Muktito Upanishad is not a pramana Upanishad and no prominent Acharya of ancient periods have referred to it. also there is an Upanishad called Allahpanishad which praises Allah. It was written by some hypocrite.}

I would not be surprised if there is a Kristopanishad too. Muktitopanishad? I never heard of it from my Acharya. You are right about this and all other points.

The Advaitins want to stick to their guns because Vishnu-maya has affected their reasoning.

They should chant Sri Krishna Paramatma's name constantly to get out of this dilemma.

June 15, 2005

Rig Veda 7:46

imaá rudraáya sthirádhanvane gíraH kSipréSave DEVAAYA svadhaávne

áSaaLhaaya sáhamaanaaya vedháse tigmaáyudhaaya bharataa shRNótu naH

note the word in caps. Vedas have accepted Rudra to be a DEVA. so the shaivites cannot say that Rudra is not a deva.

Aitareya Brahmana(1.1.1) states

Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA

Meaning:

Agni is the lowest and Visnu is the Supreme among the Devas. In between them lie the other devas.

the sruti(vedas) clearly point out hierarchy among the devatas in terms of Supremacy and it says that Visnu is the Supreme of them all. Also Vedas themselves call Rudra as DEVA and so Rudra is also mentioned here and he too occupies a position in between Agni and Visnu.

this vakya also makes it clear that all devas are not the same and that all devas are not equal to one other. In fact no other deva is equal to or greater than Visnu.

now whatever the shaivites may say - let Rudra be praised in many ways, still he is lower than Visnu. the fact is established.

as for the 'nama' vakyas that the shaivites take from Rudram, let them know one thing Agni is also praised in a very similar manner and that will not make Agni the Supreme Deity. same is the case with Rudra. the other Devas have attained names while Visnu's names are natural to Him. attained names cannot add to the glory of a person. Just because I am named Ravilochan, I will not become Paramatma with my eye being the Sun. the shaivites and smartas fail to understand this.

Shiva himself says that he is 'not cleansed of sins' in Shatapatha and the Shaivites believe that this Shiva will clean them of their sins and give them Moksha. Shiva gives Moksha to those who die in Kashi only by reciting the Brahmataraka mantra which is Rama-nama. Gopala Tapani says,

'rshabadvaja vandhyaya parthasarathaye namah'

meaning: Salutations to Parthasarathy(Krishna) who was worshipped by Shiva(Rshabadvaja).

It is Shiva who has Rshaba as his flag. there is no doubt about the meaning of this vakya.

even if the shaivites do not accept this Upanishad they have the vakya from Aitareya Brahmana. the fact is very clear.

Atanu posts several vakyas which are irrelevant to the Supremacy argument. Indra is also praised in the same way ans so also Agni. these vakyas does not lend Supremacy to Rudra.

Rg Veda 7:40:5

asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH

vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat

Meaning:

I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these devatas.

On account of knowing this , Rudra Deva gained his Rudra-Strength. The Ashvini brothres have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food.

I have already explained why the verse acannot be ri interpreted in any other way. 'vide hi' will refer to the words speaken before it and give reason for the words spoken after it.

also if Atanu ants to reinterpret the verse as 'on account of knowing that Visnu is Rudra's Rudra Strength', it is possible due to the following reasons.

1.the term 'hi' refers to 'prasiddhi' as well and hence the term refers to another statement and continues upon it. here the other statement lies just before the term because 'vide hi' is the term used.

2. also the second vakya of the verse nowhere contains the name 'Visnu' nor is there any reason to make the vakya mean as Atanu wants it to be. both the words 'vayaa' (I/We) and 'Visnu' are found only in the first vakya. also going by grammar 'Rudro' does not mean 'Rudra's'. in case the veda meant to say so, the term should have been 'Rudrasya'.

even if Atanu still does not understand, there is no problem for the Vaishnavas. Aitareya clearly says '..Visnu paramas'.

---------------------------

RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana

4 Flow for prosperity and constant Vigour, flow on for happiness and high perfection.

This is the wish of these friends assembled: this is my wish, O Soma Pavamana.

5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu.

---------------------------

Atanu uses the above verses to say that Soma is the father of Visnu.

but note it clealy that the verses are used in yagnas done with 'Soma juice'(liquor) as sacrifice. also the term 'flow on' confirms it. the verse praises Soma as Sacrificial offering as it begets the Devas to us(humans) by satisfying them in the yagnas.it is for this reason is Soma praised as father of various devas as it brings them to us. hence to clear it only does Veda Purusha uses the term 'flow'. Atanu identifies Soma with Shiva. but Shiva is no liquid to flow.

also some verses from Rg Veda:

(I will post only those verses relevant for the matter of discussion and not some irrelevant verses)

7.099.02 No being that is or that has been born, divine Visnu, has attained or surpassed the utmost limit of your magnitude by which you have upheld the vast and beautiful heaven, and sustained the eastern horizon of the earth.

note: no being 'that is' or 'that has been born'. Shiva's birth is vividly described in Shatapatha and hence he cannot be equal to or greater than Visnu. also the term 'That Is' makes another point clear that whether a being is born or not is irrelevant. no being is equal to or greater than Visnu. and Shiva being born and being 'not cleansed of sins' can never be equal to or greater than Visnu.

7.100.03 This deity, by his great power, traversed with three (steps) the many-lustrous earth; may Vis.n.u, the most powerful of the powerful rule over us, for illustrious is the name of the mighty one.

note: Rudra is praised as powerful and so also Indra,Agni etc. But Visnu is the 'Most Powerful of the Powerful.'

June 15, 2005

prá sú víshvaan rakSáso dhákSy agne bhávaa yajñaánaam abhishastipaávaa

áthaá vaha sómapatiM háribhyaam aatithyám asmai cakRmaa sudaávne

1,076.03 Utterly consume all the ra_ks.asas, Agni, and be the protector of our sacrifices against interruption. Bring hither the guardian of Soma, (Indra), with his steeds, that we may show hospitality to the giver of food.

the reference to the two steeds(haribhyaam) makes it clear that the deva referred to is Indra and Indra is identified as 'SOMAPATI'.

THEREFORE THIS VERSE ESTABLISHES THE SUPERIORITY OF INDRA OVER SOMA.

June 15, 2005

Purusha Sukta's 17th mantra says "Data(BrahmaDeva) meditated upon the Purusha, Indra(Sakra), the Brahman knower and also the devatas of the eight directions(pradishaschatasrah). ONLY BY KNOWING HIM CAN ONE ATTAIN MOKSHA AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY/KNOWLEDGE."

Indra meditated upon Purusha who is Visnu and so also Brahma Deva. ALso Shiva is the deity of Isana direction and hence he too meditated on Visnu. Sayana, an advaitin, too has accepted that the devatas of the eight directions meditate upon the Purusha. This also proves that ParamaPurusha is different from Shiva.

Whwn Rudra worships ParamaPurusha the argument that Rudra is Parama Purusha stands completely defeated.

--

MAHANARAYANOPANISHAD: NAMO RUDRAYA VISHNAVE....

--

this means 'Salutations to Rudra,Visnu...' rather than what Atanu has claimed. if one goes through the previous vakyas of MahaNarayana Upanishad the fact will become clear. 'Upakrama Nyaya' has to be followed. there should be continuity in what the sruti says. and sruti has to be interpreted in that manner. probably Atanu is unaware of that. going by this nyaya even the Advaitic explanation of 'Tat Tvam Asi' becomes wrong as rightly pointed out by Ramanujacharya. the objections raised by Him still remain unanswered. same is the case with Atanu's interpretations.

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RIG VEDA 10.191.3: SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH

What else is there to say?

--

what makes u think that the verse is meant for Rudra Deva. attained name will not give glory of the true owner of the name to the person.

Narayana Sukta says,

'visvam NARAYANAM devam AKSHARAM.....'

Narayana is Akshara. so in 'SA VISHNU SA SHIVA SA RUDRA SO'KSHARA SAH' the first word Visnu and the last word 'Akshara' refer to Narayana. already it has been explained that Visnu is an avatar of Narayana by Saranathan in an earlier discussion by referring to Purusha Sukta. and hence when Visnu is said to be born in Atharvasika it refers to this avatar-birth.

but Shatapatha clearly refers to Rudra's birth and his crying thAt HE IS NOT CLEANSED OF SINS.

if Atanu still does not understand the problem is his. not mine not of any true Vaisnava.

Narayanat Param Nasti.

'Divyo deva eko Narayanah'.

June 15, 2005

ahám evá svayám idáM vadaami júSTaM devébhir utá maánuSebhiH

yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám

10.125.05 I verily of myself declare this which is approved of by both gods and men; whomsoever I will, I render him Ugra(one of the names of Rudra), I make him BrahmA(Chaturmukha), a r.s.i, or a sage.

Atanu will immediately say that Ugra means mighty and not Rudra. but Devi clearly refers to Brahmadeva and uses Ugra before the word 'Brahmaa'.also shatapatha clearly says that 'Ugra' is one of the names given by Brahmadeva to Rudradeva and hence Atanu, do not misinterpret in your own way.

Following are vakyas from Shatapatha Brahmana,

Bhootanam ca Prajapatis samvatsaraya dikshitah | Bhootanam pathir gruhapathir aaseet |

"The pati of bhoota and praja, Brahma deva, underwent diksha for one year. He was a Grihasta. His wife was Usha. …….. Brahma deva let his veerya ( ‘rodho(a)sinchat’) to Usha. In a year, a son was born. The son cried. Brahma asked him, “ Son! Why are u crying. I got u as child after tough tapasya. The son said, “ I am not cleansed of sins. To wipe out my sins give me names. Brahma again told him, “ Let your name be Rudra.” …….. Rudra, charva, isana, pathi(pasupathi), bhima, UGRA – these seven names (were given by Brahma deva)"

also the 17th mantra of Purusha Sukta says,Data(BrahmaDeva) meditated upon the Purusha. Indra(Sakra), the Brahman knower and also the devatas of the eight directions(pradishaschatasrah)(also meditated). ONLY BY KNOWING HIM CAN ONE ATTAIN MOKSHA AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY/KNOWLEDGE."

in the previous post the interpretation made by me was not so clear due to wrong punctuations which I have removed now.

also in one of the earlier posts Atanu had posted that my interpretation that Visnu is 'ancient, selfborn,creator' is wrong and that it should be 'last'. may I know what made him to reinterpret the mantra in that way? I have explained many termsin some verses to prove that my interpretation is correct rather than his but Atanu does not do tht. he will write whatever he wishes. without giving proper reasons. atleast now let him give the reasons by quoting the Sanskrit text and the reasons for the reinterpretation.

infact if anyone tried to reinterpret, he should give proper reasons. it is tarka shastra. atleast try to stick by this point.

or else arguing with u will be an utter waste of time and i already feel so for u r ignorant of Sanskrit, Nyayas and time management as well(u post many irrelevant verses and such praises have been showered on Indra and agni as well and hence most of the evrses posted by u are of no use in proving Supremacy.).

I don't wish to continue the arguments with an ignorant person and unless u change ur ways i am not going to argue.

June 15, 2005

---

But Rudra is all. The first born is Rudra and one who was and is before any birth was and is Rudra. It is clear from Yajur Veda as cited below. These are from Samhita and not from extentions like your stories. Reconcile everything. I am not against you but I wish that you will consider all scriptures together.

-----

now Atanu, Shatapatha Brahmana clearly indicates Rudra's birth from Brahma deva's semen. still u claim that Rudra is unborn. u not even tried to reinterpret the mantras from shatapatha. shame on u.

Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha

Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost.

'Agriyaya' does not mean 'before all things'. It means just 'first'. why do u write all nonsense?

as usual u will asy grammar is immaterial. probably it is the way of Shaivites/hypocrite Smartas to translate sanskrit verses without following the rules of grammar. any language can be understood only by knowing the grammar and u know not even an akshara of Sanskrit Grammar. pity on the Vedas! they are suffering at the hands of this hypocrite named Atanu.

-------------------------------

Why in Uttaranuvaka and not in Samhita? Ok let it be.

for ur information , Uttaranuvaka of Purusha Sukta is contained in Taittreya Aranyaka of Yajur Veda.

-------------------------------

YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods

YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage

-------------------------------

these verses do not indicate Supremacy of Rudra in anyway.

do not post verses which are irrelevent to the matter of discussion. Indra is also praised in the same manner.

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“let us open the rivers; let them flow, set free, at the command of Indra”

After this you create stories as usual. But the truth is 'at the command of Indra'.

this again shows ur ignorance. the word let us refers only those devatas who are speaking the words and not to Visnu. Visnu is prayed to stride forth lustily. and the devatas are doing the work at the command of Indra. Visnu is not included.

also i have not created any stories. Brhaddeva Samhita is what cited to prove my point and even Sankaracharya has quoted this Samhita. if u do not know, then do not write anything. writing without knowledge is anyaya.

---

Yes Vishnu is Rudra’s power and thus is used as arrow. And Agni is also similarly a power. Sita Upanishad will make it clear. Vishnu is the world seed and Maya. And SA denoting Siva with consort is the eternal truth. Siva is Pasupathi because of Vishnu – no doubt about that.

--

once again saying ur own thoughts without providing poof. the arrow and bow were first made by the devatas. only after that did they choose Rudra to shoot it. so these devatas are not Rudra's powers for the bow and arrow were neither made for Rudra alone nor were made to be used at the behest of Rudra's command nor was the arrow made with the thought in mind that rudra is going to use it.

also Rudra became Pasupathi only after receiving the boon from the devatas. Brahman need not receive such a boon because He will be the overlord of everything. the very fact that Rudra got a boon shows that he is not Supreme for if he is the Supreme then he need not have attained boon from anyone to become Pasupathi. use ur common sense, Atanu.

--------------------------------

As usual this smacks of biased opinion. Rudra has the power to choose boons for himself. Why should others allow him so if they were not help less at the face of the Asuras?

that Rudra has powers to choose a boon for himself shows that he is Supreme? Ignorant speech. even Asuras like Ravana, Banasura etc. choose their boons by themselves. will this make them Supreme? use ur common sense,Atanu.

Devas were not so helpless but the fact was that Rudra was created to destroy and hence they selected him to do what was his job. also the reason given by the devatas is that 'Rudra is Cruel'. this is found in the verse. nowhere do the devatas say that they are incapable to do it.

----

Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah ||

Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies.

Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah |

Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi ||

In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us.

-----

where does these verses show that Rudra is Supreme. do not waste the time of everyone by posting verses irrelevent to the matter of discussion - Supremacy.

also singing the praise of someone does not mean worshipping. Lord Krishna praises the greatness of His devotees but that does not mean that He is worshipping His devotees. once again Atanu's staements lack pragmatic approach.

RV HYMN CLV. Visnu-Indra.

1. To the great Hero, him who sets his mind thereon, and Visnu, praise aloud in song your draught of juice,--Gods ne'er beguiled,Who was borne from Noble Steed, have stood upon the lofty ridges of the hills.

3 ------HE LOWERS, THOUGH A SON, THE FATHER'S HIGHEST NAME; the third is that which is high in the light of heaven.

-

a classic example of cheating. u quote the first verse and then the third verse leaving a verse in between. there is no connection whatsoever between the first and third verses.

'Who was borne from Noble Steed, have stood upon the lofty ridges of the hills.' - refers to Indra because it is Indra who resides upon the lofty ridge - Meru. the birth referred to is that of Indra and not of Visnu.

--

RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas.

9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard.

11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise.

-

another classic example of cheating. probably Atanu does not know anything but misinterpretation and cheating. Atanu quotes the 9th verse and then skips to the 11th verse, conveniently leaving the 10th verse.

once again these is no direct connection between these two verses and they are not inter-related.

--

rodayati sarvamantakAla iti rudraH |

He makes everyone weep at the time of leaving a body, so he is called Rudra.

These are by Rishi Kanva

He is sarvamantakAla

---

sarvamantakala refers to the end of created living beings. u cry when ur mother dies. that is what is referred to here. it says sarvam antakala. this does not mean sarva samharaka. once again u will say grammar does not matter. in fact it is ur argument that does not have any matter and worthy of being confined to dustbin due to fraudulent interpretations.

Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu

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