For Atanu

Ganeshprasad · May 28, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanuji We pick up from where we left off.

Om Namah Sivayya

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Re

(No, Indra does not merely represent the highest opulence in material realm. He is the Lord of the heavens. And He is the divine mind, which on birth thinks itself to be independent but through grace of Durga comes to know Brahman. )

Thank you, you state that Indra is the devine mind and Vrittya is the demon who obstructs/veils brahma gyan. Indra suffers on this account and Indra only kills Vrittya.

Tha question arrises what is the differences between the King mahendra and the devine mind, who is the demon Vrittya, how does Indra kill him?

Re

(Who says one can forget to be conscious? I did not. But, the imagination in the consciousness that “I am this” can be forgotten profitably.)

Whose imagination is it? Even the imagination has a source in reality.

Re

(That is why I request, find “Who am I?” This is not matter of philosophy and it may be futile to debate on this. But if one is earnest then one may begin to search the power behind one’s own existence. The body-brain is inert. On death the body-brain does not proclaim I. In deep sleep, one exists blissfully without knowing and without the help of mind. Mind is not I but mind has a source within. )

Yes this human form of life is a wonderful gift, let us not waste in sense pursuit (my ignorance is even though the truth is known yet all the actions are geared towards the need of the body, falsley identifying as the self ) In deep sleep one does not know who the self is therefore the inquery goes on.

Re

(If you are earnest then find for yourself the location of your I. What really is your I? Where that cognition apparatus is located?)

There is no need to, because the self is the concious being that drives this inert body, mind and inteligence.

Re

(You will find that you have none.)

Who is this you?

Re

(Do you realize it a bit? I have a very small experience and I can just tell you that it is a totally free feeling with a blissful sense of being (but not limited within anything). In fact there is nothing to limit that sense of existence.)

A bhakta feels the bliss when he is immersed in love of god, when he is fully surrendered to the will of his lord, he learns to accept what ever comes his way, in this way the bliss never leaves him, but for the pretender like me thebliss is very rare why ? because I fall back in to trap and the ego takes over.

Re

(The following verse may make it a bit clear.

Maha Narayana Up.

LXXIV-1: O Rudra, thou art the binding knot of the breaths and the organs of senses functioning in the body. Enter me as the end-maker of sorrows and increase and protect me by that food which I have taken in.)

It sounds quite clear from where I am standing, the little I is depandent.

Re

(But without experience one will not realize what it means to be alive without needing the support of the breath and the mind/senses.)

What is your point?

I may realise one day that I can travel without the aid of motor car upon which I have become so dependent one day it might dawn on me that I can travel on my own without the aid of a vehicle.

Re

(Mind itself needs the tranquility. Mind has a source within that is tranquil. Mind has to see that tranquil Lord.)

It is I who has to see the tranquil Lord the mind will automaticaly be at ease.

Re

(Friend I can only ask like the sage of Kena Upanishad)

True friend that you are, you ask me like the sage of Kena UP, I have no qualification, it is my faith that drives me.my attempt of answering you quiries are like a child trying a university degree.

Kena Up.

Re

(I-1. Wished by whom is the mind directed to fall (on its objects)? Directed by whom does the foremost vital air move? By whom is wished this speech which the people utter? Who is the radiant being that unites the eye and the ear (with their objects)?)

This is obvious.

Re

(Who is the seer within you? Can you find and locate that apparatus? Who is seeing the God as a vision? Can you locate that seer? No, you will never be able to do it. The Lord who alone is the seer in so-called you has had the vision of God.)

Who is that YOU that you are referring to? What is the point of our endeavor if there is no us who can see?

Re

(No. No. No.

Kena Upanishad.

I-6. That which man does not see with the eye, that by which man sees the activities of the eye, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.)

If every thing is Brahman then you fail in your advaita Darsan.

Who is this man that does not see with the eye?

Re

(WRT to Vishwarupa darshan of Arjuna see again what Lord told Arjuna “See what else you wish to see in me”. Please check it up. )

Please give reference to this sloka.

Re

(The vision will be as per your preference and not the absolute truth. And even when the vision is due to grace, the seer is still Him. You have no apparatus of cognition of your own. That is the truth.)

But of course our vision is limited, even Arjun who having realized the self and all the doubt dispelled was granted divya vision and even then he confirms he can not see the beginning middle or the end, such is the nature of infinite.

Kena

Re

(II-1. If you think, ‘I know Brahman rightly’, you have known but little of Brahman’s (true) nature. What you know of His form and what form you know among the gods (too is but little). Therefore Brahman is still to be inquired into by you. ---)

Whatever little we realize is Purna

He is neither that which is known, nor that which is not known, nor is he the sum of all that might be known. (Mandukya UP.)

So the point is Brahman is infinite and therefore we may a little but there is more to know

Then again:

Kena

II-4. When Brahman is known as the inner Self (of cognition) in every state of consciousness, It is known in reality, because one thus attains immortality. Through one’s own Self is attained strength and through knowledge is attained immortality.

RE

(Oh yes, there is no other way. A vision as separate from one self is a vision of mind and HE is beyond mind. He is the source of the mind. A report written by me will not understand me. But I will understand it. Lord knows the mind but the mind cannot reach him. The small “i”, which simply is in your mind has to sink in its root to become purna. Till then the thirst will be there.)

The mind has no vision, just as the report it is inert and therefore there is no question to understand in both the case. Your problem is you keep substituting mind with Jiva. Jiva is conscious being and its quest is realization of its creator.

RE

(Finally, I believe your signature line: The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

There is no second. When there is a second, He is not known. )

WE have a different understanding such is the nature of words, I see him one without a second amongst many.

RE

(WHEN BRAHMAN IS KNOWN AS THE INNER SELF (OF COGNITION) IN EVERY STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS, IT IS KNOWN IN REALITY, ----

WHAT YOU KNOW OF HIS FORM AND WHAT FORM YOU KNOW AMONG THE GODS (TOO IS BUT LITTLE). THEREFORE BRAHMAN IS STILL TO BE INQUIRED INTO BY YOU.)

What use is the inquiry if only to find there is no i.

Oh Yes.

Om Namah Sivayya

I will prostrate to Shiva again and again It is this Small i who has this need.

Jai Shree Krishna

May 29, 2005

The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji

Jai Ganesh

A man’s speech, mind, and the senses are not empowered by the small “i”. Then what is empowered by the small “i”? Where is it and what it owns? What is its nature?

Kena

I-4. That which is not uttered by speech, that by which the word is expressed, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

I-5. That which one does not think with the mind, that by which, they say, the mind is thought, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

I-6. That which man does not see with the eye, that by which man sees the activities of the eye, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

I-7. That which man does not hear with the ear, that by which man hears the ear’s hearing, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

I-8. That which man does not smell with the organ of smell, that by which the organ of smell is attracted towards its objects, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.

II-4. When Brahman is known as the inner Self (of cognition) in every state of consciousness, It is known in reality, because one thus attains immortality. Through one’s own Self is attained strength and through knowledge is attained immortality.

End of citation

If Brahman alone is the mind of mind then what man does? He probably just imagines that I think, I see, i smell, and i do.

****************

Thank you, you state that Indra is the devine mind and Vrittya is the demon who obstructs/veils brahma gyan. Indra suffers on this account and Indra only kills Vrittya.

Tha question arrises what is the differences between the King mahendra and the devine mind, who is the demon Vrittya, how does Indra kill him?

****************

King Mahendra is divine mind. He is affected by Vrittya (which veils the truth of identity of King Mahendra and Rudra (the origin of the divine mind). He kills Vrittya (removes the veil) by partaking of Soma juice.

Vrittya is Vrittya – the tendencies.

***************

Re

(Who says one can forget to be conscious? I did not. But, the imagination in the consciousness that “I am this” can be forgotten profitably.)

Whose imagination is it? Even the imagination has a source in reality.

********************

Yes, this is tricky but I will (as before) paraphrase what Lord Shiva teaches sage Vashista.

“The faulty imagination is of ahamkara (the I sense), but as the ahamkara is not independent of pure CID (the Lord), it can be said that ultimately the imagination is of the CID alone. All such thoughts are in the consciousness only. Jiva is vehicle of the CID, intellect a vehicle of the Jiva, Mind a vehicle of the intellect, and body a vehicle of the mind. The movement of the body is karma.”

Yes, “Even the imagination has a source in reality”, but the imagination is imagination and not the reality itself.

Mind has all the trouble since it imagines the imagination to be the reality.

And that is what Vichara is all about -- To fix the attention at the source of these imaginations (and not on the imaginations). Imaginations come and go but if the attention is always on “Who has the imagination?” then the source begins to shine as incandescent light. And then the enquiry is “who sees the light?”

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------deep sleep one does not know who the self is therefore the inquery goes on.

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I do not understand this. Can you please explain?

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Re

--- What really is your I? Where that cognition apparatus is located?)

There is no need to, because the self is the concious being that drives this inert body, mind and inteligence.

******************

That is good. I agree partly. But still there is need to know the Self. That is what all scriptures proclaim. What is Self? Where is the Self located? Who sees the Self?

*********

Re

(You will find that you have none.)

Who is this you?

************

I am Atma. This atma sees a state of its own that is referred to as “you” in your question “Who is this you?”

Atma exists in three states: A, U, and M, but the real being is the one seeing these three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

But at present, the manas (Indra is Lord of Manas), which is a vehicle of ego, has taken over and is veiling the truth. But the reality is that the manas is consciousness with upadhis. Fundamentally it is consciousness.

***************

Re

(Do you realize it a bit? I have a very small experience and I can just tell you that it is a totally free feeling with a blissful sense of being (but not limited within anything). In fact there is nothing to limit that sense of existence.)

A bhakta feels the bliss when he is immersed in love of god, when he is fully surrendered to the will of his lord, he learns to accept what ever comes his way, in this way the bliss never leaves him, but for the pretender like me thebliss is very rare why ? because I fall back in to trap and the ego takes over.

******************

Yes. It is true of me and for most (less for you I feel). The ego takes over and the bliss is lost. The question is what is ego? Where is it located? Where is its source? Who this ego controls? What is the difference between ego and the small “i”?

And most important question: why the ego takes over again and again? Is it not because the small “i” is rampant? Are ego and small “i” different?

**************

Re

(The following verse may make it a bit clear.

Maha Narayana Up.

LXXIV-1: O Rudra, thou art the binding knot of the breaths and the organs of senses functioning in the body. Enter me as the end-maker of sorrows and increase and protect me by that food which I have taken in.)

It sounds quite clear from where I am standing, the little I is depandent.

Re

(But without experience one will not realize what it means to be alive without needing the support of the breath and the mind/senses.)

What is your point?

I may realise one day that I can travel without the aid of motor car upon which I have become so dependent one day it might dawn on me that I can travel on my own without the aid of a vehicle.

***************

You are correct to point out that this does not seem to throw light on I and i. But please check again and reflect on: “binding knot of the breaths and the organs of senses functioning in the body”.

What is beyond the senses? If Rudra removes the binding knot of senses then what remains? If the small i is beyond the senses then how it is different from pure CID, which is without upadhis such as “I am this”?

If senses are removed and still I know that I exist then what do I see and whom do I see?

In this regard:

Maha Upanishad

Iv-83-87. Be devoted to Samvid, with single attention, giving up the non-spiritual attitude and unaffected by the condition of the world. In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than chit.

He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle.

The mind and the world are (only) the blooming of the supreme being; worldly life is reduced by the restraint (of the mind) and non-restraint (of the spirit).

****************

Re

(Mind itself needs the tranquility. Mind has a source within that is tranquil. Mind has to see that tranquil Lord.)

It is I who has to see the tranquil Lord the mind will automaticaly be at ease.

*****************

What will be your apparatus of cognition to see the Lord?

You are assuming that the small “i” is real and is not tranquil. But you will see that the small “i” is none but purusha engaged in Prakriti.

And why are we not tranquil? Is it not because the mind which is driven by ego (which is the small “i” sense), is not calm? Is it not like “I am a General Manager” sense affects our behaviour. When the mind is disturbed it appears that I am disturbed. When General Manager is disturbed the person holding that post is disturbed since he has assumed identity with General Manager concept.

Actually, with attention fixed on the source of thoughts, one knows that I is not perturbed at all. It is the wrong association that is the cause perturbation. I is sadashiva.

*******

Re

(I-1. Wished by whom is the mind directed to fall (on its objects)? Directed by whom does the foremost vital air move? By whom is wished this speech which the people utter? Who is the radiant being that unites the eye and the ear (with their objects)?)

This is obvious.

***********

How can you say that this is obvious? Who is the seer? And who is fake? The small “i” or the Self (the big I).

You said that the mind-body is inert. So, what is the cognition apparatus in you? And what says I in you?

***********

Re

(Who is the seer within you? -----.)

Who is that YOU that you are referring to? What is the point of our endeavor if there is no us who can see?

*********************

Where is the question of seeing? Lord is beyond seeing. Do not all scriptures proclaim this? Till the day, one depends on senses, one will see only the small I and the variegated world but not the one Lord.

The point of endeavor is obvious: to gain un-decaying bliss. Never to be brought back by rise of ego.

****************

Re

(No. No. No.

Kena Upanishad.

I-6. That which man does not see with the eye, that by which man sees the activities of the eye, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this (non-Brahman) which is being worshipped.)

If every thing is Brahman then you fail in your advaita Darsan. Who is this man that does not see with the eye?

************

Why this has to be so? Sankara says: Jagat Mithya, Brahman sat, Brahman is Jagat. This verse of Kena upholds Advaita – which says the concepts are not true but Brahman alone is true.

And for the second point: that by which man sees the activities of the eye, know That alone to be Brahman.

So what is man and what is Brahman? If Brahman from within is seeing and cognizing then what is man doing and what is a man? Does Brahman need a man to see and cognize? Why is a man created as a different entity? What is the motivation?

*****************

Re

(WRT to Vishwarupa darshan of Arjuna see again what Lord told Arjuna “See what else you wish to see in me”. Please check it up. )

Please give reference to this sloka.

***************

11.7 Ihaikastham jagatkritsnam pashyaadya sacharaacharam;

Mama dehe gudaakesha yachchaanyad drashtumicchasi.

11.7. Now behold, O Arjuna, in this, My body, the whole universe centered in the one—including the moving and the unmoving—and whatever else thou desire to see!

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Re

(The vision will be as per your preference and not the absolute truth. And even when the vision is due to grace, the seer is still Him. You have no apparatus of cognition of your own. That is the truth.)

But of course our vision is limited, even Arjun who having realized the self and all the doubt dispelled was granted divya vision and even then he confirms he can not see the beginning middle or the end, such is the nature of infinite.

*****************

Yes. You agree that the vision is limited. And I doubt Arjuna realized the Self with this vision. After the war was over, Pandavas visited Pitamah. Bhisma said: “Even with Hari beside you, you are not happy”. Then Pandavas had to visit hell also albiet briefly.

Kena

II-4. When Brahman is known as the inner Self (of cognition) in every state of consciousness, It is known in reality, because one thus attains immortality. Through one’s own Self is attained strength and through knowledge is attained immortality.

***********

--------Your problem is you keep substituting mind with Jiva. Jiva is conscious being and its quest is realization of its creator.

***********

No friend, I do not keep substituting mind with Jiva. I know Jiva is controller of intellect and intellect controller of mind. Mind has no vision but mind has thoughts and thoughts of vision also.

Like I am a supervisor today and I think “I am a supervisor” and act accordingly. Tomorrow I will become manager and I will think “I am a manager” and my behaviour will change. And it goes on like this.

Vashista teaces to unpeel these layers of imagination (like unpeeling onion) and finally know that “I am a Jiva” is also an imagination in pure consciousness. And Jiva has identity with Brahman (See Suka Rahasya Upanishad below).

You say: Jiva is conscious being. So, the question remains “who is this Jiva?” “Where is its intelligence from?”, “Is it intelligent, independent of Lord Pragnya? Kena clearly says that it is Brahman who is the mind of the mind, eye of the eye etc. Then where is the mind of Jiva?

Jiva is actually just like the mind – effect of Lord’s power. Lord is controller of Jiva and Jiva is controller of Mind. But both Jiva and mind are inert on their own and have Lord as the ultimate controller.

Agni has heat as its power. Is it wise to say that heat is an independent true being?

So, the question remains “who is this Jiva that is me?”

*************

RE

(Finally, I believe your signature line: The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

There is no second. When there is a second, He is not known. )

WE have a different understanding such is the nature of words, I see him one without a second amongst many.

***************

Why this faulty understanding? Where is the phrase “second amongst many”? In fact your signature line is “the one without a second”,

Also: shvetAshvatara upaniShad says, “eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- --|”

It clearly says: there is no second.

Yes, one can easily see that the highest of this Rudra is the Lord and the lowest is Jiva. This is also clear in Suka Rahasya and other Upanishads as below:

Suka-Rahasya Upanishad

40-42. Senses has two ways: expressed and implied in ‘Tattvam Asi’ -------------. Tvam and Tad mean effect and cause respectively when this is the adjunct; otherwise both are the same Sat, Chit and Ananda – ------.

The Jiva has the effect-adjunct, Isa has the cause-adjunct – when both are removed, only the full knowledge remains.

So, all is Rudra, one without a second, whose cause end is Isa and the effect end is Jiva. When the cause and effect adjuncts are removed only Narayana remains. Cause and effects are of reasoning since Lord has no reason to create anything. He has no shortcoming.

This is called Kaktaliya. Like ascribing cause of bloom of flowers to spring season. Cause and effect adjuncts are in mind as concepts.

**************

RE

(WHEN BRAHMAN IS KNOWN AS THE INNER SELF (OF COGNITION) IN EVERY STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS, IT IS KNOWN IN REALITY, ----

WHAT YOU KNOW OF HIS FORM AND WHAT FORM YOU KNOW AMONG THE GODS (TOO IS BUT LITTLE). THEREFORE BRAHMAN IS STILL TO BE INQUIRED INTO BY YOU.)

What use is the inquiry if only to find there is no i.

******************

To obtain everlasting infinite bliss from where there is no return. Else, with a small “i” sense intact one comes back like you said ego rises again and again.

**************

Om Namah Sivayya

I will prostrate to Shiva again and again It is this Small i who has this need.

**************

Yes, Shiva is the real I of everyone. Till this real I is experienced, the small “i” (ego-mind-manas needs to prostrate again and again for His grace. And manifested Lord Shiva (Isa) himself teaches Suka as below:

Suka-Rahasya Upanishad

Suka aid, ‘First among gods, all-knowing, be pleased. The supreme Brahman, inherent in Om, has been imparted; the special sense 'That Thou Art' etc., with the six limbs, I desire to hear’.

Shiva said, ‘Well said, O treasure of knowledge, you have asked for the desirable, the mystery of the Vedic texts, named Rahasyopanishad with the six parts, knowing which one shall be directly released. The texts without the six parts one should not teach. Just as Upanishads are the crown of the Vedas, so is the Rahasya of Upanishads. For the wise man who meditates upon Brahman, holy spots, Vedic rites and mantras are useless. One wins a hundred years of life, meditating the sense of major texts. The same is won, uttering this once.

20. Om, for this mantra, Hamsa is the Rishi, unmanifest Gayatri is the metre, deity is Paramahamsa, Hamsa is the seed, Sama-Veda is the power. ‘I am That’ is the pin. Its application is in the context of uttering the major text to secure the grace of the Paramahamsa. ‘Truth, knowledge, infinity is Brahman. Bow to the thumbs, ‘Eternal joy is Brahman’ – Svaha to the index fingers. ‘Brahman is eternal joy, mostly’ – Vasat to the middle fingers. ‘That which is plenitude’ – Hum to the ring fingers. ‘The lord of plenitude’ – Vasat to the little fingers. ‘One and non-dual is Brahman. Phat’ to the inside and outside of the palms. ‘Truth, knowledge, infinity is Brahman’ – Phat to the inside and outside of the palm. ‘Truth, knowledge, infinity is Brahman – bow to the heart’.

‘Eternal bliss is Brahman’ – Svaha to the head – Vasat to the braid of hair. ‘That which is plenitude’ – Hum to armour – Vausat to the three eyes. ‘One and non-dual Brahman’ – Phat to the missile. The earth, old region, heaven, Om, this is the link of space.

21-22. Meditation: I bow to the noble teacher, beyond becoming and the three Gunas, one, eternal, holy, witness of all knowledge, giver of bliss, beyond the world, sky-like, purpose of major texts.

The four major passages:

(1) Consciousness is Brahman

(2) I am Brahman

(3) That Thou Art and

(4) This self is Brahman.

Those who recite the statement of identity become liberated in Sayujya (identity).

23-24. Of the great incantation ‘Tat’, the seer is Hamsa, un-manifest Gayatri is the metre. Paramahamsa the deity; Hamsa the seed; Sama-Veda, power; So’ham is the pin; application is the meditation for my liberation. Bow to the thumbs, to that aspirant Svaha to Isana, the index fingers, Vasat to Aghora the middle fingers, to Sadyojata, the ring fingers, hum; to Vamadeva, the little fingers Vausat; to that spirit, Isana, Aghora etc. Phat.

Meditation: Meditate on that shining light as knowledge and its objects and what is beyond them both, taintless, awake, free and imperishable.

25-26. Of the chant of ‘Tvam’ Vishnu is the seer, Gayatri is the metre, supreme self the deity, ‘aim’ the seed, ‘klim’ the power, ‘sauh’ the pin, application is to the repetition for my liberation.

Bow to Vasudeva, to the thumbs: Svaha to Samkarsana, the index-fingers; Vasat to Pradyumna, the middle fingers; Hum to Aniruddha, the ring fingers; Vausat to Vasudeva, the little finger; Phat to Vasudeva and others.

Meditation: I adore the word ‘Thou’ the Jiva state, in all living things, everywhere, impartite form, controller of mind and egoism.

27. For ‘Asi’, the seer is Manah, metre Gayatri, deity Ardhanarishvara, seed is Avyaktadi, power is Nrisimha, pin is supreme Self. Application is repetition for identification of Jiva and Brahman. I bow to the thumbs, the dyad of Earth; Svaha to the index finger, the dyad of water. Vasat to the middle fingers, the dyad of fire; Hum to the ring fingers, the dyad of Air; Vausat for the little fingers, the dyad of Ether; Phat for the front and back of the hand, the dyad of Earth etc. So too the consecration of the heart. Bhuh, Bhuvah, Svah, Om. Thus the directions are enclosed.

28-29. Meditation: ‘Meditate ever on Asi, thou art. Aiming at the merger of Jiva in that, as long as the mind dwells on the purport’. Thus have been stated the six limbs of the major texts.

30-38. Now according to the classification of the mystic teachings are set forth the verses on the purport.

Prajnana is that whereby one sees, hears, smells and makes clear all objects here, pleasant and unpleasant, by which one knows. In the four-faced Brahman, Indra and Devas, men, horses, cows, etc., spirit is one Brahman – so, in me too Prajnana is Brahman. In this body being remains witness to the intellect and is called I. The Being full in itself is described as Brahman, referred to with Asmi. So, I am Brahman. The being, one without a second, without name and form before creation and even now is called That. The being called Thou here beyond the senses understood as one. Let this unity be experienced.

Summary

There should be no confusion that Jiva is the effect and Lord is the cause. Let Jiva not become the cause (that is what it is trying by asserting a small independent “i” through thoughts of mind).

Jiva-ego-mind-body has no independent power whatsoever. It can only falsely create bhandasura and increase misery by assuming ownership of karma.

Ganeshprasad · May 29, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanu

Re

(A man’s speech, mind, and the senses are not empowered by the small “i”. Then what is empowered by the small “i”? Where is it and what it owns? What is its nature?)

Desires, lust, Kama, Vasna, call what you want is the bhandasura, Karma is propelled by this, it is trapped in numerous yonis. It owns nothing but foolishly thinks it owns the lot, if not now may be in future. Asha and trushna never leaves the Jiva who mistakenly identifies with the yoni he is in, hankering and lamenting lost in the kal chakra.eternal and blissful by nature, covered up by avidhiya, just as cloud covers the sun.

RE

(Summary

There should be no confusion that Jiva is the effect and Lord is the cause. Let Jiva not become the cause (that is what it is trying by asserting a small independent “i” through thoughts of mind).

Jiva-ego-mind-body has no independent power whatsoever. It can only falsely create bhandasura and increase misery by assuming ownership of karma.)

I like your summary; all other sidhanta can be realized in due course of time keeping this in mind all the arguments will disappear

This will suffice for the time being, there is a lot to digest and respond to. Until then

Jai Shree Krishna Jai Bhavani Om Namah Sivaya

May 30, 2005

**** Desires, lust, Kama, Vasna, call what you want is the bhandasura, Karma is propelled by this, it is trapped in numerous yonis. It owns nothing but foolishly thinks it owns the lot, if not now may be in future. Asha and trushna never leaves the Jiva who mistakenly identifies with the yoni he is in, hankering and lamenting lost in the kal chakra.eternal and blissful by nature, covered up by avidhiya, just as cloud covers the sun. *****

Jai Shree Krishna Jai Bhavani Om Namah Sivaya. Lead us out of the kal chakra oh Bhagavan.

May 31, 2005

what do u mean by 'atanu'? thx in advance for ur reply

May 31, 2005

Iam guessing that Atanu is a name 90%, but could also mean a designation (like uncle, guru, an older person)

Am I correct Atanu ji ?

May 31, 2005

Yes. It is a name 100%.

I am not very old and neither young.

Ganeshprasad · May 31, 2005

jai ganesh

you have got it from the horses mouth, it is a name

for me he is a deer friend whome i have never met.

atanu can also mean not very thin or not very small, or it can also mean one who has no body like kamdeva

Jai Shree Krishna

BinduMadhav · June 1, 2005

Sir, are you Siva's devotee? If so, why? I don't understand since Lord Krishna makes it crystal clear that devotion towards Him is the best. Siva also agrees.

June 2, 2005

Yes Dear,

I am a Siva devotee and that is why Krishna is every second with me. He protects me. He does all my work.

Lord Krishna is not the embodied form you worship. He is all pervading unborn Mahesvara.

June 2, 2005

Om Namah Sivayya sir, you are one of the most knowledged visitor to this forum. I have read most of your posts and you have answered them very nicely. There are several ambiguities in our vedas and puranas and sometimes its very hard to know the real meaning. Thats why there are lot of people claiming differnt theories and meanings in our religion.

I think you should start new posts and teach us some of the important texts and your knowledge to others.

BinduMadhav · June 2, 2005

Om Namah Sivayya wrote:

{Yes Dear,

I am a Siva devotee and that is why Krishna is every second with me. He protects me. He does all my work.

Lord Krishna is not the embodied form you worship. He is all pervading unborn Mahesvara. }

Sir - Unfortunately, Bhagavad-Gita which is the embodiment of all knowledge (as you will doubtless agree) clearly states that worshipping demigods like Siva is not recommended.

Bhagavad Gita does not state that Siva is Supreme God like Lord Krishna is. It states clearly that Lord Krishna alone is the Supreme. Lord Krishna is the quintessence of everything, the best of everything as he says: "Rudranam Shankaraschasmi": Among Rudras, I am Shankara, the Lord says. He did not say "Shankara and I are the same". This is why Krishna is Paramathma. All others are demigods.

Lord Krishna IS the embodied form I worship. Yes, he is the all pervading Maheshvara, but 'Unborn Maheshvara'? You are wrong, Sir. "Sambhavami Yuge Yuge" is the statement you need to keep in mind. I understand that Lord Krishna is all pervading (Vishnu), Omnipotent (Sarvashakta) Supreme Lord (Parameshvara). But as Srimad Bhagavatham states so clearly, Siva is a parama Vaishnav, who constantly worships the form of Lord Vishnu (or Krishna). No disrespect to Siva, but he is just a demigod and a guru, a god who is filled with Tamoguna, who should be listened to but not worshipped.

We all need a form to worship. That is why we imagine Lord Krishna in the form that he was born. Lord Krishna's form is the most beautiful and sweet form that anyone could imagine. Why would anyone worship Siva? I don't understand.

But, as Wodehouse says, it takes all kinds to make the world.

June 2, 2005

***** But, as Wodehouse says, it takes all kinds to make the world. ********

Yes it takes all kinds. especially your kind, who inevitably help to bring out the truth.

****** Yes, he is the all pervading Maheshvara *****

There are not two Mahesvaras.

Jabali Sruti

sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH

sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH |

YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe.

c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visn

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava;

June 3, 2005

Om Namah Sivayya Sir, Can you please explain the following line.

"Lord Krishna is not the embodied form you worship. He is all pervading unborn Mahesvara"

Thanks

BinduMadhav · June 3, 2005

Sir,

With all due respect, I really think you are going round and round in circles, like merry go round.

{There are not two Mahesvaras.}

I understand that. Ekam Sath Viprah Bahudha Vadanti. Ekam Na Dvi Na Tri.. All that is good.

All your explanation is inadequate.

Do you believe in the authenticity of Srimad Bhagavatham?

Please look up my post under "Worship of Siva versus Worship of Lord Vishnu" and let me know your answers.

Again, I am asking you (and not others) because I have identified you as a knowledgeable person. Many others are adepts at repeating what the Shastras say without fully understanding them.

{Yes it takes all kinds. especially your kind, who inevitably help to bring out the truth. }

Very funny. Apparently you have a sense of humor, albeit a tart one.

June 3, 2005

************

Om Namah Sivayya Sir, Can you please explain the following line.

"Lord Krishna is not the embodied form you worship. He is all pervading unborn Mahesvara"

****************

Please do not call me sir. Call me Atanu if you wish.

9. 11 Avajaananti maam moodhaah maanusheem tanumaashritam;

Param bhaavamajaananto mama bhootamaheshwaram.

9.11. Fools disregard Me, clad in human form, not knowing My higher Being as the great Lord of (all) beings (maheshwaram).

10.3 Yo maamajamanaadim cha vetti lokamaheshwaram;

Asammoodhah sa martyeshu sarvapaapaih pramuchyate.

10.3. He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as the great Lord (maheshwaram), he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.

End of citation

I hope no further explanation is required.

****************

Om Namah Sivayya sir, you are one of the most knowledged visitor to this forum. I have read most of your posts and you have answered them very nicely. There are several ambiguities in our vedas and puranas and sometimes its very hard to know the real meaning. Thats why there are lot of people claiming differnt theories and meanings in our religion.

I think you should start new posts and teach us some of the important texts and your knowledge to others.

*****************

Dear friend, one who has seen God and lives with God every second can only be a true teacher.

This Jiva Atanu is only on the path like you are. Atanu is lusty, fearful, jealous, and anxious and has all other bad qualities; whereas a true teacher is absolutely fearless.

But I can summarize what I have learnt (but not fully realized) from my Guru.

Irrespective of division, all religions agree that ego has to be subdued or slain in order to attain God and eternal peace. So, without getting into philosophical or other arguments one should adopt means suitable to oneself towards removal of ego. Saiva, Vaisnava, Christians, Moslems, Jews all agree here. So, let us pick the common thread first and subdue ego.

How to fight with ego? It is you. You will not like to defeat yourself and this is the main challenge.

I simply follow one dictum of Gita where Lord says: Know that I am the doer and enjoyer.

It is nothing new in Gita. Kena Upanishad cited above will help you to realize this truth. I also have a logic of my own which helps me to remember God. This logic may help others also.

Something or someone in me feels “I exist”. Till some time ago this Atanu never thought who is capable saying “I”? Science teaches us that it is brain. But it is not true. When dead, a person’s brain does not say “Let me live”. Brain has no such capacity.

My Guru has taught me to keep enquiring about this “I”.

The following verse from Yajur Veda may also help you.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

“I” is prana natha. It has a soul- agni. It is self ruling and has no other ruler. It has power – Durga and it has an dharma – Vrishava.

I is Sada Siva. About this there is a verse.

Maha Narayana Upanishad

XXI-1: May the Supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the Vedas and the one overlord of Hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the Sadasiva described thus and denoted by Pranava.

Beneath the apparent reality of Body-brain-mind-intellect-ego-Jiva, lies the reality -- the bliss of sada Siva.

Ganeshprasad · June 4, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanuji

Kena

Re

If Brahman alone is the mind of mind then what man does? He probably just imagines that I think, I see, i smell, and i do.)

No doubt of Brahman being mind of mind but since the jivatma has its source in Brahman it has the mind of its own.

mamaivamso jiva-loke

jiva-bhutah sanatanah

manah-sasthanindriyani

prakrti-sthani karsati

Jiva in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

As the air takes away the aroma from the source (or flower), similarly Atma takes the six sensory faculties from the physical body it casts off (during death) to the (new physical) body it acquires (in reincarnation by the power of Karma). (15.08)

The Jeevaatma enjoys sense pleasures with the help of six sensory faculties: hearing, touch, sight, taste, smell, and mind. (15.09)

Re

(King Mahendra is divine mind. He is affected by Vrittya (which veils the truth of identity of King Mahendra and Rudra (the origin of the divine mind). He kills Vrittya (removes the veil) by partaking of Soma juice.

Vrittya is Vrittya – the tendencies. )

I am confused how can devine mind be affected by Vrittya?

Re

(Yes, this is tricky but I will (as before) paraphrase what Lord Shiva teaches sage Vashista.

“The faulty imagination is of ahamkara (the I sense), but as the ahamkara is not independent of pure CID (the Lord), it can be said that ultimately the imagination is of the CID alone. All such thoughts are in the consciousness only. Jiva is vehicle of the CID, intellect a vehicle of the Jiva, Mind a vehicle of the intellect, and body a vehicle of the mind. The movement of the body is karma.”)

And the karma is of the self (ahamkara, the small I ) the CID can not be affected by karma, therefor we can see the real difference between the small I and the big I. Once you accept that pure CID has real imagination then you have to accept the faulty imagination can not be his and must be of the other who perpetualy lost in the kal chakra.

Re

(Yes, “Even the imagination has a source in reality”, but the imagination is imagination and not the reality itself.

Mind has all the trouble since it imagines the imagination to be the reality. )

But the self is not an imagination except the imagination of the self to identify with this mundane world is faulty. This is our trouble.

Re

(And that is what Vichara is all about -- To fix the attention at the source of these imaginations (and not on the imaginations). Imaginations come and go but if the attention is always on “Who has the imagination?” then the source begins to shine as incandescent light. And then the enquiry is “who sees the light?”)

And I keep asking if there is only one what is there to see? Nothing

You can not even see a reflection because for that you need another. When I see the sun, I am the seer and the sun is seen altough the sun is my sourse of the sight.

******************

------deep sleep one does not know who the self is therefore the inquery goes on.

**********************

Re

(I do not understand this. Can you please explain?)

We have no recoletion of this state nor are we concious in this state , when we wake up our struggle in this existance goes on in both the state we are in ignorance and therefore the on going inquery.

Re

(That is good. I agree partly. But still there is need to know the Self. That is what all scriptures proclaim. What is Self? Where is the Self located? Who sees the Self?)

The senses are said to be superior (to matter or the body), the mind is superior to the senses, the intellect is superior to the mind, and self is superior to the intellect. (3.42)

Thus, knowing the Atma to be superior to the intellect, and controlling the mind by the intellect (that is purified by Jnana), one must kill this mighty enemy, Kaama, O Arjuna. (3.43)

The reason we need to know the self is because in 99.9% of the time although we in theory we know we are not this body but in all practical terms our actions are for the well fare of the body. At the moment the self is trapped in this existance. We must learn who the self is, we can not see the self but we see others concious beings. And as soon as some one dies we say he is gone although we have not seen that which is gone we certainly know it is not the body. The self is reflacted by conciousness.

Re

(I am Atma. This atma sees a state of its own that is referred to as “you” in your question “Who is this you?”

Atma exists in three states: A, U, and M, but the real being is the one seeing these three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

But at present, the manas (Indra is Lord of Manas), which is a vehicle of ego, has taken over and is veiling the truth. But the reality is that the manas is consciousness with upadhis. Fundamentally it is consciousness.)

One must elevate, not degrade, oneself by one's own mindxe "mind". The mind alone is one's friend as well as one's enemy. (6.05)

The mind is the friendxe "friend" of those who have control over it, and the mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it. (6.06)

Mind is nothing but bundle of thoughts of the self, upadhis are due to our desires.

Re

(The ego takes over and the bliss is lost. The question is what is ego? Where is it located? Where is its source? Who this ego controls? What is the difference between ego and the small “i”?

And most important question: why the ego takes over again and again? Is it not because the small “i” is rampant? Are ego and small “i” different?)

The small I is constantly active,(we can not remain inactive) the aceivement becomes the ego of the self even with good deed, the self is quietly pleased because ego is very hard give up but when the self is in knowledge it gives up the doership and surrenders to the will of the supreme lord and enjoys the bliss.

nirmana-moha jita-sanga-dosa

adhyatma-nitya vinivrtta-kamah

dvandvair vimuktah sukha-duhkha-samjnair

gacchanty amudhah padam avyayam tat

Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05)

Maha Narayana Up.

LXXIV-1: O Rudra, thou art the binding knot of the breaths and the organs of senses functioning in the body. Enter me as the end-maker of sorrows and increase and protect me by that food which I have taken in.)

Re

(It sounds quite clear from where I am standing, the little I is depandent.)

Yes for that there is no doubt but this depandancy is sourse all happiness.

RE

(You are assuming that the small “i” is real and is not tranquil. But you will see that the small “i” is none but purusha engaged in Prakriti.)

There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

Just as the Atma acquires a childhood body, a youth body, and an old age body during this life, similarly Atma acquires another body after death. The wise are not deluded by this. (See also 15.08) (2.13) (Atma or Atman means consciousness, spirit, soul, self, the source of life and the cosmic power behind the body-mind complex. Just as our body exists in space, similarly our thoughts, intellect, emotions, and psyche exist in Atma, the space of consciousness. Atma cannot be perceived by the senses, because, the senses abide in Atma.)

RE

(So what is man and what is Brahman? If Brahman from within is seeing and cognizing then what is man doing and what is a man? Does Brahman need a man to see and cognize? Why is a man created as a different entity? What is the motivation? )

You tell me. Are you denying our existance?

Re

(Yes. You agree that the vision is limited. And I doubt Arjuna realized the Self with this vision. After the war was over, Pandavas visited Pitamah. Bhisma said: “Even with Hari beside you, you are not happy”. Then Pandavas had to visit hell also albiet briefly. )

Our doubts can not explin the reality and purpose of the great souls like Bhisma and Arjun. I can not believe for one minute Krishna sakha Arjun can be in illusion.

Re

(Jiva is actually just like the mind – effect of Lord’s power. Lord is controller of Jiva and Jiva is controller of Mind. But both Jiva and mind are inert on their own and have Lord as the ultimate controller. )

Yes but why create jivas only to go through suffering and we understand the suffering is due to karma and we are responsible for it so whose karma is it?

Re

(Also: shvetAshvatara upaniShad says, “eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- --|”

It clearly says: there is no second.)

So tell me who is UP addressing to? Eko has no need to say this if there no one else to tell.

Om Namah Sivayya

Jai Shree Krishna Jai Bhavani

June 5, 2005

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

13.23. The Paramatma residing in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the Mahesvaram and the Param Purusha.

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji.

I reply in short. Our differences are small. You believe that aside from param atma who resides within and without there is also a jivatma within which is as real as the param atma.

************

And as soon as some one dies we say he is gone although we have not seen that which is gone we certainly know it is not the body. The self is reflacted by conciousness.

**************

At the same time you say: The self is reflacted by conciousness.

Param Purusha (The Self) is not reflected. It is reality. The Sat and the RTA So thats the difference.

Well Ramakrishna once said as below:

"Sankara is true.

Ramanuja is also true. Since I cannot speak a word to you all when in Samadhi."

**********

(Also: shvetAshvatara upaniShad says, “eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- --|”

It clearly says: there is no second.)

So tell me who is UP addressing to? Eko has no need to say this if there no one else to tell.

**************

Yes. As said above differences begin with Vak. But the partless Brahman which is experienced in Turiya and is the Turiyatta is beyond vak.

Mandyuka Up.

12. That which is part less is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Sivam and advaitam. Om is the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self

All Upanishads describe the fourth state as partless.

Sankara never negated the individual gods, else he would not have composed hymns for all dieties that are by far the most popular. But the partless substratum on which AUM resides and on which the Universe resides, cannot be percieved if one does not know the part less Brahman as the Universe.

One who is supposed to have experienced the Turiya -- (the waking sleep)has become non-different from the subject of knowledge. He becomes the knowledge.

And He can at free will traverse all four states: Turiya, Pragnya, Taijasya, and Vaisnarava -- to teach as per the level of aspirants (if it is in his karma). What is there to stop Him? He has become Avimukta.

Om Namah Sivayya

June 5, 2005

mamaivamso jiva-loke

jiva-bhutah sanatanah

manah-sasthanindriyani

prakrti-sthani karsati

Jiva in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

This is suitable for Arjuna who at that point of time does not know of Atma. And if this interpretation is final then this eternal superimposition or bondage (please see above) will never go. And this interpretation goes againsnt "sivamadvaitam" fourth state of Mandyuka, Nrisimha, Kaivalya and many other Upanishads.

Fir advanced yogis, Lord says "those Yogis who meditate on me continously become yuktatma and they are in me and I am in them."

Lord has also said that the knowledge of unity is true knowledge. Rest is tamasic or rajasic.

I am not citing to save time and since you do not require citations.

June 5, 2005

Namaskar Atanu,

***********

"10.3. He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as the great Lord (maheshwaram), he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins."

***********

How do i become to realise this, how do i create him inside me when iam praying ?

*********

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

“I” is prana natha. It has a soul- agni. It is self ruling and has no other ruler. It has power – Durga and it has an dharma – Vrishava.

**********

What happens to "I" after i die ? Will i be able to remember this life after I die ?

Thank you.

June 6, 2005

Namaskar dear friend

I am barely equipped to answer your queries and can say only so little. Lord is the Guru who will surely help you.

***********

("10.3. He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as the great Lord (maheshwaram), he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.")

How do i become to realise this, how do i create him inside me when iam praying ?

***************

You cannot create him within you.

10.3. He who knows Me as unborn and beginningless, as the great Lord (maheshwara), he, among mortals, is undeluded; he is liberated from all sins.")

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

13.23. The Paramatma residing in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, Mahesvara and the Param Purusha.

Brihadarayanaka Up.

I-iv-8: This Self is dearer than a son, dearer than wealth, dearer than everything else, and is innermost. --------- One should meditate upon the Self alone as dear. Of him who meditates upon the Self alone as dear, the dear ones are not mortal.

Lord Mahesvara is ever present as your cognition power and prana; as the innermost Self, as prana natha. Love Him as your own Self as you love yourself. It will be true love. Cry for Him as you cry for yourself. Do for Him whatever you love to do for yourself. It will be true service.

And surely He will repay.

**************

What happens to "I" after i die ? Will i be able to remember this life after I die ?

***********

Why bother about after life? Find out who has the life now.

I suggest you read Kena and Mandyuka Upanishads. If you do not have these then I will post digital copies if you give your email address.

Ganeshprasad · June 6, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanu ji.

Re

(I reply in short. Our differences are small. You believe that aside from param atma who resides within and without there is also a jivatma within which is as real as the param atma.)

Yes that is correct, actually there are no differences between us cause we worship the Lord, all be it in our own way, despite what others in their haste judge others practice of Dharma as incorrect has no bearing on reality.

Re

(At the same time you say: The self is reflacted by conciousness.)

I meant to say self as in small i.

Re

(Sankara never negated the individual gods, else he would not have composed hymns for all dieties that are by far the most popular. But the partless substratum on which AUM resides and on which the Universe resides, cannot be percieved if one does not know the part less Brahman as the Universe.)

Such is the power of love, when one truly loves his chosen deity nothing else matter; Gopibhav is a great example they did not care for anything else they did not care if Krishna was god. Even Udhavji was perplexed and was amazed at their love for Krishna.

Re

(One who is supposed to have experienced the Turiya -- (the waking sleep)has become non-different from the subject of knowledge. He becomes the knowledge.)

In becoming non different doest it mean the same?

Re

(And He can at free will traverse all four states: Turiya, Pragnya, Taijasya, and Vaisnarava -- to teach as per the level of aspirants (if it is in his karma). What is there to stop Him? He has become Avimukta.)

Avimukta where is the question of Karma? Although there is nothing to stop one to teach.

Re

(Jiva in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

This is suitable for Arjuna who at that point of time does not know of Atma. And if this interpretation is final then this eternal superimposition or bondage (please see above) will never go. And this interpretation goes againsnt "sivamadvaitam" fourth state of Mandyuka, Nrisimha, Kaivalya and many other Upanishads.)

Arjun is Krishna shakha can not apply to him, it is our sorry state, and we may never get out of this Kal chakra as long as we have desires and hate in us. As to why this superimposition to this date I have no proper answer we have just to accept it.

Re

(Lord has also said that the knowledge of unity is true knowledge. Rest is tamasic or rajasic.)

Unity can be perceived differently by different people take for example Hinduism so many different paths yet we follow the same Dharma, hard for an outsider to contemplate. The underlining factor is Dharma.similarly the supreme sprit pervades all different individuals and if we act in that sprit that is satvik.

Jai Shree Krishna

June 7, 2005

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji

*********

Re

(At the same time you say: The self is reflacted by conciousness.)

I meant to say self as in small i.

**********

So. The small self is a reflection of Self in consciousness (Self). Self is sat. So, those who want to stick to a reflection as real are in error.

We may agree to differ here.

*********

Re

(One who is supposed to have experienced the Turiya -- (the waking sleep)has become non-different from the subject of knowledge. He becomes the knowledge.)

In becoming non different doest it mean the same?

**********

This is good. You are correct. Actually Brahman is not Ishana. Brahma Sutras say: Brahman is that from which proceeds the functions of creation, maintenance and destruction.

And it also says that a desireless Jiva attains Brahman but that being cannot create or destroy without losing the non-difference.

In essence, pure existence without sankalpa only can only lead to non difference. Any sankalpa will not allow it.

********

Re

(And He can at free will traverse all four states: Turiya, Pragnya, Taijasya, and Vaisnarava -- to teach as per the level of aspirants (if it is in his karma). What is there to stop Him? He has become Avimukta.)

Avimukta where is the question of Karma? Although there is nothing to stop one to teach.

**********

This a wrong concept. Avimuktas carry out actions without sankalpa. Krishna did so, Shiva does so eternally -- creating, maintaining, deluding, providing grace, and liberating.

********

Re

(Lord has also said that the knowledge of unity is true knowledge. Rest is tamasic or rajasic.)

Unity can be perceived differently by different people take for example Hinduism so many different paths yet we follow the same Dharma, hard for an outsider to contemplate. The underlining factor is Dharma.similarly the supreme sprit pervades all different individuals and if we act in that sprit that is satvik.

**********

Unity of pragnya state is held higher, just below the Turiya. Worldly people do not know that in deep sleep one is in the lap of Lord.

And there are enough references that in Turiya (the waking sleep) the same unity is maintained and one knows that one is in the Lap of Lord and non-different.

It is enough to know that the 'self' that we consider as real is just a reflection of the 'Self'.

Om Om OM

June 7, 2005

Namaskar my dear Atanu, you can send me the electronic copies to my email address: uvijaya@hotmail.com

Can you breifly tell me the history of both these Upanishads ?

"13.23. The Paramatma residing in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, Mahesvara and the Param Purusha."

Is Paramatma the self inside us that feels sad or guilty when we do something bad. What made me do something that is bad and why is it at the same time Iam feeling sad and guilty about it ?

Thanks

Ganeshprasad · June 7, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanu ji

*********

Re

(At the same time you say: The self is reflacted by conciousness.)

I meant to say self as in small i.

**********

Re

(So. The small self is a reflection of Self in consciousness (Self). Self is sat. So, those who want to stick to a reflection as real are in error.)

Sorry Atanu ji I did not say that or at least did not mean that, let me try again but I think you know what I meant anyway.

The small i. is reflected in any form of life through consciousness or else the body is inert.

Re

(We may agree to differ here.)

There is no fundamental disagreement, if we follow our Dharma the truth will eventually comes out. Initially the poison will flow and even when the nectar is gained we may fight (like cats and dogs in the form of who the father is? like the children in the play ground, my father is better then yours) in all this we must worship the lord there is no other option.

Re

(This a wrong concept. Avimuktas carry out actions without sankalpa. Krishna did so, Shiva does so eternally -- creating, maintaining, deluding, providing grace, and liberating.)

Yes but then I was talking of Karma it does not apply to Krishna or Siva they are above Gunas.

Re

(Unity of pragnya state is held higher, just below the Turiya. Worldly people do not know that in deep sleep one is in the lap of Lord.)

Sleep is in the mode of ignorance therefore one would not know in that state the reality.

Re

(And there are enough references that in Turiya (the waking sleep) the same unity is maintained and one knows that one is in the Lap of Lord and non-different.)

Such a state would be bliss weather in the lap as one or as a friend or any relation.

Re

(It is enough to know that the 'self' that we consider as real is just a reflection of the 'Self'.)

Knowing anything is not enough, one has to strive for it and achieve it, for me it is a fact that I am eternal part of that same supreme from whom everything emanates

I am the origin of all. Everything emanates from Me. Understanding this, the wise ones worship Me with love and devotion. (10.08)

Om Om OM

Jai Shree Krishna om namo Shivaye namo

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