Lust for Women

[sampath 0]

Gneashprasadji,

 

I did not advocate freesex.What I said was lust in mind.When one turns from bhramachari to grahastha he has to choose a bridegroom.So he has to choose among women.So you cannot avoid lustful feelings when you chose a woman.

 

Vedas permit gandavra marriage where man and woman love each other and marry.So lust along with love is involved here.This is what I pointed out.

 

avoiding lust in heart is impossible and not asked for by vedas.

[Guest guest]

Greetings Mr. Om Namah Sivaya, When you quoted "So, meditate on the ONE wherefrom the various forms have sphurana. Your mind also has sphurana from that same ONE." - Can you please explain this in more simple english format, I dont know whom you are refering to "ONE" as. What is "sphurana" ?

 

 

 

 

Thank You.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

In earlier posts and all,you directly supported lust and encouraged it like an atheist.You directly alleged that those who dont involve in sex and produce child will go to hell.

 

Then very wrongly you claimed that Bhimshma escaped hell only because he saw Krishna.Ofcourse seeing Krishna relieves one of the hell but even without seeing Krishna Bhimshma wont have gone to hell.

 

But slowly you even referred Maha Periyaval and involved him to justify sex.And gradually you started changing your view and openly admitted that a brahmachari would relieve 21 generations of forefathers.

 

Hey -- please stop this false propanganda on justifying lust.If you cannot control it first accept your mistake.Then try to change yourselves.But dont go on justifying it even in the strenght of puranas.

 

Puranas are at various levels and those who have no children going to hell and all are meant for correcting those irresponsible men who forgets his wife and going to prostitutes.

 

There is no consistency in your logic and your conscience itself must have warned you for you immediately changed your way of justifying sex.

 

Sex is wrong only.Supress it or else if you cannot do that marry,enjoy and then realize its stupidity and go for abstinence.Dont justify the wastage of energy as a great punya.

 

I pity even after knowing all brahminical vedic terms your heart remains lustful and more than that,you are very egoistic to proclaim sexless life to go to hell.It simply shows you are not capable of controlling senses and the fox which cannot climb up the tree to get grape fruits is saying that 'grapes are poisonous'.

 

Hare Krishna!!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

I am sorry that I took time to reply

 

 

 

'sphurana' is spontaneous rise. 'One' is the consciousness 'I am' (different from 'I am this').

 

All thoughts have their sphurana from the "I am" thought. First wrongly 'I am this' thought arises and then the desire for another and then the Universe.

 

 

A regime of daily exercise (of gradual increasing time) on "I" (which is God in you), removes all worries, desires and lust in time.

 

You can also enquire to your self why and to whom this lust is? This is a spiritual execise that not all can do. For them japa is good or a mixture of japa and the above.

 

 

Because lust is the biggest hurdle so this exercice is worth.

 

 

I will just give one hint and rest one has to do oneself. Who has the lust? You as a body lust after another body. But neither you nor the lusted beings are bodies. Does one lust for a dead woman? It is the life that is adorable. The Ram. Who has no lust and one cannot lust Ram. You can adore Ram.

 

 

Your lust will be transformed.

 

 

 

[tackleberry 1]

Sex is wrong huh??? Then my friend you would not have been born yet?? What kind of a dirty prude are you?? People like you make me sick!!! Maybe you should grow up kid

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Namaskar Atanu ji

 

Re

(Because lust is the biggest hurdle so this exercice is worth.

I will just give one hint and rest one has to do oneself. Who has the lust? You as a body lust after another body. But neither you nor the lusted beings are bodies. Does one lust for a dead woman? It is the life that is adorable. The Ram. Who has no lust and one cannot lust Ram. You can adore Ram.)

 

 

Nicely put how can we lust after a dead body? Our first encounter is with the body, consciousness of all living entity is through the medium of form, we perceive all with the use of the body, some thing tangible, which we all can see. Unfortunately the nature of this material world is very temporary that is evident also. Lord Shree Krishna describes this world as dukhalay, full of misery. The soul who is eternal by nature is seeking that eternal pleasure (Ram) but in wrong place that which is temporary and thus the struggle. It is lust which later transform in to wrath is the cause of bondage. There is no easy solution; big yogis fall pray to these lusts? We all know beauty is only skin deep but the desire does not go away it steals the intelligence of a sane person. Goswami tulsidas was fortunate whose wife told him “if only you loved the Lord half as much” Lord Krishna says with constant practice one can subdue the senses.we must learn to discriminate between sat and asat, right and wrong, that which binds us to this existence or liberate us, or else punar punar janam marana.

This is what Sankracharya had to say

 

 

THE WORKS OF SANKARA

VIVEKA CHUDAMANI

SLOKAS 71 TO 80

 

 

 

71. I come now to a clear explanation of Discrimination. This will help to decide for yourself how to accept the real and reject the false.

 

 

72. Composed of the seven ingredients, viz. marrow, bones, fat, flesh, blood, skin, and cuticle, and consisting of the following limbs and their parts - legs, thighs, the chest, arms, the back and the head :

 

 

 

73. This body, reputed to be the abode of the delusion of "I and Mine", is designated by sages as the gross body. The sky, air, fire, water, and earth are subtle elements. They -

 

 

 

74. The first source of delusion is the body, composed of five gross elements (ether,fire,air,earth and water) and five subtle elements (sound, sight, taste, smell and touch). A combination of these give pleasure to the experiencer, the Jiva.

 

 

75. Desire is the strong cord that binds deluded persons to such experiences and holds them in the cycle of birth and death, progressing or regressing according to the inescapable Law of Karma.

 

 

 

76. Each sense is enough to cause death in any living being--moth, deer, elephant,fish or bee--hat to speak of man who has all five senses in full.

 

 

77. Some objects, more poisonous than a cobra's venom, can cause death when consumed; but the mere sight of some objects can cause death.

 

 

78. He alone is fit for liberation who is not enmeshed in these sense objects, and no amount of the knowledge of scriptures can save him.

 

 

79. The shark of hankering catches by the throat those seekers after liberation whoi have got only and apparent dispassion ( vairagya )

and are trying to cross the ocean of Samsara ( relative exixtence ),

and violently snatching them away, drowns them half-way.

 

 

 

80. Desire is the great crocodile that confronts one who tries to cross the ocean of life, and one has to kill it with the sword of non-detachment .

 

 

Lord Krishna says

nirmana-moha jita-sanga-dosa

adhyatma-nitya vinivrtta-kamah

dvandvair vimuktah sukha-duhkha-samjnair

gacchanty amudhah padam avyayam tat

Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05)

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[sampath 0]

sorry i took long to reply,but saw ur reply only today.

 

I dont contradict.Even now i say lust isnt a sin.Seeing a woman or man and lusting at heart is no sin under any law.

 

But doing it physically is illegal if you are married and certainly is wrong.

 

If you are unmarried and want to get close with a woman before marriage,hindu shastras allow it.It is called as "gandarva vivaha".Thus it isnt a sin.

 

legal marriage too isnt a sin.

 

In vanaprastha stage you leave all this and reach god.

 

what contradiction did you see here?

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

You are the first person to claim that lust is not sin.

 

Kamamishitya dushpuram dhabamana madan vitaa

 

this verse verily suits you only.

 

And you all of a sudden never touched your previous statement that all brahmacharis will go to hell and bhimsha had a narrow escape by seeing Krishna.

 

Yes -- as Aurobindo rightly said "sometimes evil also manifests in the world by their right instruments of expressions."And you are chosen by that very same evil this time to propogate sex that too by quoting from vedas.

 

Proceed well and you will have to meet a dead end one day.

[sampath 0]

To attain salvation your children should do some rites in river bank after you die.Else you will not go to heaven.Real jnanis who attain sanyasi stage from bhramachari stage without grahastha stage like shankara are exceptions,but they are very,very rare.everybody cannot become shankara.

 

sex is divine in hinduism.Lingam worship is actually phallic worship.Is sex is sinful,why did vatsayana write kama shastra?

[Guest guest]

Truly, sex is sacrifice of seed prepared of Agni in a man (by devas) in the fire of women (by devas again).(Br. UP.).

 

 

But we are discussing the imagination and desire for women that originally was written about by the guest.

 

 

There is difference between lust and sacrifice.

 

Sankara was first defeated by Mandana Misra's wife on the topic of erotisicm. Sankara eneterd the body of a dead king and experienced the pleasures of sex.

 

Later, he was declared as impure by none other than Saraswati on account of this. But he defended that his acts were with full knowledge of Brahman (the Self). His defence was accepted.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

 

******

Nicely put how can we lust after a dead body? Our first encounter is with the body, consciousness of all living entity is through the medium of form, we perceive all with the use of the body, some thing tangible, which we all can see.

*********

 

Citations are valuable.

 

Yes, our first encounter is with the body but through the senses, which is an indirect experience. On the other hand, the experience that 'I exist' does not require any sensual validation. In deep sleep, when there is no body and no senses (mind has folded into the Lord -- the consciousness), there is pure bliss but we do not know. Only the refreshed state is an indirect proof.

 

 

Ram is the bliss inside, which is fleetingly seen (experienced) only when the mind is absolutely still. Ram is within but all seek Him in objects that appear external to one (actually all objects are also in one's own consciousness).

 

 

During the fleeting moments during a 'no thought' period between two thoughts or 'a moment before and after' waking, one experiences this bliss, which Siva experiences eternally and which is Sivam.

 

 

Like a person sitting in shade does not know that he is in heaven but goes out in heat and then understands. We forget that bliss is the very nature of everyone but seek other to obtain happiness.

 

 

We also do not understand why one becomes happy temporarily, on fulfillment of one's desire. We by ignorance think that fulfillment of a desire has made us happy. This is a cause of repeated misery.

 

When a desire is fulfilled, mind becomes desireless for a brief period and the bliss that is always there is experienced briefly. But then not knowing this the mind makes us desire a new thing and the bliss is gone.

 

 

Desirelessness is bliss and performing all acts by not owning the doership and the fruits, keeps the bliss eternally.

 

 

OM

[Guest guest]

**** Lingam worship is actually phallic worship ******

 

This as per the staus of the perciever. A lingam is actually an indicary icon. Linga means indicatory.

 

Linga is indicatory of the Supreme Purusha Narayana

[Guest guest]

I observed a lot of mistakes so I repeat it.

 

**** Lingam worship is actually phallic worship ******

 

No. This is not the only thing. This may be just one perspective as per the status of the perciever.

 

A lingam is actually an indicary icon. Linga means indicatory.

 

Siva Linga is indicatory of the Supreme Purusha Narayana.

 

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Namaskar Atanu ji

 

Re

(Yes, our first encounter is with the body but through the senses, which is an indirect experience. On the other hand, the experience that 'I exist' does not require any sensual validation. In deep sleep, when there is no body and no senses (mind has folded into the Lord -- the consciousness), there is pure bliss but we do not know. Only the refreshed state is an indirect proof. )

 

 

Falsely identifying with the body to be the self and thus all our actions are outward looking.the whole sansar is indirect proof of real eternal bliss that exist in different dimension,

We have no awerness in deep sleep therefore the self-need to attain that state while awake.

Unfortunately we chase after mirage which is a reflection of real water in different place Can you see the indirect connection.

 

One does not attain freedom from the bondage of Karma by merely abstaining from work. No one attains perfection by merely giving up work. (3.04)

Because no one can remain actionless even for a moment. Everyone is driven to action, helplessly indeed, by the Gunas of nature. (3.05)

 

This is the sorry state of Jiva who is entangled in the web of Maya and the lust is the strongest enemy of all.

No matter how hard we try there is this natural tendency to try one more time that we try to give up. Because when we are trapped in the tunnel all direction is darkness even the way out therefore we come disillusioned and give up half way.

 

The branches (of this world tree of Maya) spread below and above (or all over the cosmos). The tree is nourished by the Gunas; sense pleasures are its sprouts; and its roots (of ego and desires) stretch below in the human world causing Karmic bondage. (15.02)

Neither its (real) form nor its beginning, neither its end nor its existence is perceptible here on the earth. Having cut these firm roots of the Ashvattha tree by the mighty ax of (Jnana and) Vairaagya or detachment; (15.03)

 

 

Re

(Ram is the bliss inside, which is fleetingly seen (experienced) only when the mind is absolutely still. Ram is within but all seek Him in objects that appear external to one (actually all objects are also in one's own consciousness).)

 

Stilling the mind is more difficult then to catch the wind.

We should never the less sincerely try and make it our friend and seek the grace of the Lord.

 

 

Re

(During the fleeting moments during a 'no thought' period between two thoughts or 'a moment before and after' waking, one experiences this bliss, which Siva experiences eternally and which is Sivam.)

 

Therefore we must burn the desires that deludes us, we must seek the shelter of that who can give us the Sivam.

 

 

Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05)

 

It is not the mind that needs stilling but the desires that binds us in this sansar.

 

The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

 

 

Re

(Like a person sitting in shade does not know that he is in heaven but goes out in heat and then understands. We forget that bliss is the very nature of everyone but seek other to obtain happiness.)

 

Why and how we chose to leave that heaven like shade and chose to burn in this sansar is a mystery. Facts remain we are in this quagmire, how do we get out of it?

Does lusting after one thing or the other help? As some one here suggest, that which is natural and should not be condemned, even goes on to suggest those who are bramachari will not attain the supreme, really mind boggles those who have no children especially a son their parents would not attain heaven, due to lack of rights not performed on the banks of a river?

Does one reach any destination without the self-effort?

Or

Like as he suggest just get a son, do all that you want to do never mind any karma at the end of the time the son will perform the rights and bingo the heaven awaits. Wow.

 

Re

(We also do not understand why one becomes happy temporarily, on fulfillment of one's desire. We by ignorance think that fulfillment of a desire has made us happy. This is a cause of repeated misery.)

 

 

Is any one happy really? We carry large burden on our shoulder walk in a blazing son find a shade and sit down. The relief we get we perceive as bliss is it really bliss?

 

 

When a desire is fulfilled, mind becomes desireless for a brief period and the bliss that is always there is experienced briefly. But then not knowing this the mind makes us desire a new thing and the bliss is gone.

 

 

Desirelessness is bliss and performing all acts by not owning the doership and the fruits, keeps the bliss eternally.

 

 

OM

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

**** It is not the mind that needs stilling but the desires that binds us in this sansar.

**********

 

Yes, mind will not be tranquil until free of desire. And without mother's grace this is not possible.

 

Mata Durge Sharanam Namah.

 

[Guest guest]

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji

 

**********

One does not attain freedom from the bondage of Karma by merely abstaining from work. No one attains perfection by merely giving up work. (3.04)

Because no one can remain actionless even for a moment. Everyone is driven to action, helplessly indeed, by the Gunas of nature. (3.05)

*********

 

Continous unbroken meditation is work. The biggest work. No work is more engaging and more worthy. Lord has said that yuktatma yogis do not have any work (ie other than meditation). And this meditation is a way to overcome the trappings of Gunas.

 

 

 

*********

Stilling the mind is more difficult then to catch the wind.

**********

 

Who says so? The one who lusts also says that stilling the mind is impossible. It is the ego and mind that is deciding. That is the trick of the mind.

 

 

It has apparently become independent and a ruler and it is in its present state a shameless thing. It even does not acknowledge that the intelligence is from the Lord. Mind has nothing of its own. In fact, mind is nothing but a bundle of thoughts. It is leading you to think that stilling the mind is like catching wind.

 

True, even to attempt to meditate requires the grace but one step of jiva is reciprocated by 10 steps of Lord (that is what I have heard but Lord is not helping me at all).

 

Stilling the mind cannot be done with effort since effort will involve false belief that I am doing it. But keeping the mind on God for some time (about 2-3 minutes unbroken) brings on the still ness automatically.

 

 

Om Durge Sharanam Namah

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Yes, mind will not be tranquil until free of desire. And without mother's grace this is not possible.)

 

How very true, even in the mundane world this is so easy to see, there are no words that can describe maa, she comes in many forms and all of them deserve our respect from the one we get our birth to cow to earth, unfortunately we take them for granted, there is no one more benevolent and forbearance then the mother, what to speak of divine mother.

 

Their grace is unconditional accept we do not see it that way, we perpetually run away and fall down but she never fails to pick us up.

 

Let us not lusts after women, except when we are ready to take one as our life partner or else we should treat every one as either a sister or mother.

 

 

Mata Durge Sharanam Namah.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Continous unbroken meditation is work. The biggest work. No work is more engaging and more worthy. Lord has said that yuktatma yogis do not have any work (ie other than meditation). And this meditation is a way to overcome the trappings of Gunas.)

 

He also says those who surrender on to me they easily cross over the three gunas.

 

 

daivi hy esa guna-mayi

mama maya duratyaya

mam eva ye prapadyante

mayam etam taranti te

 

Re

(Who says so? The one who lusts also says that stilling the mind is impossible. It is the ego and mind that is deciding. That is the trick of the mind.)

 

Arjun said to Krishna the mind is chanchala

 

cancalam hi manah krsna

pramathi balavad drdham

tasyaham nigraham manye

vayor iva su-duskaram

 

Re

(It has apparently become independent and a ruler and it is in its present state a shameless thing. It even does not acknowledge that the intelligence is from the Lord. Mind has nothing of its own. In fact, mind is nothing but a bundle of thoughts. It is leading you to think that stilling the mind is like catching wind.)

 

You can not stop thinking, mind is not independent, but every situation provokes a thought in you one acts on it some times by impulse or with intelligence but it is the soul who is thinking through the medium of senses some where along the line Karma plays a big part in it.

That is why the lord warns us,

karmany evadhikaras te

ma phalesu kadacana

ma karma-phala-hetur bhur

ma te sango 'stv akarmani

 

Re

(True, even to attempt to meditate requires the grace but one step of jiva is reciprocated by 10 steps of Lord (that is what I have heard but Lord is not helping me at all).)

 

And that is very true, do not be despondent, this is our real test, every good thing in life comes with patience. If you grow a mango tree it takes time before it gives you fruit.

 

Re

(Stilling the mind cannot be done with effort since effort will involve false belief that I am doing it. But keeping the mind on God for some time (about 2-3 minutes unbroken) brings on the still ness automatically.)

 

Keeping mind on god that is also an effort therefore do not be afraid of making the effort, the false belief will disappear once the truth is known. We have to make an effort to get out of this darkness, once in the light there is no darkness.

 

 

Om Durge Sharanam Namah

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

I would suggest to try this.

 

When you see women. Think of any Goddess. Pray the Goddess Parvati to give self Control. Thank God for creating beautiful human beings like women.

 

Even Sankaracharya praised Goddess Parvati's beauty in Soundaryalahiri with a divine line of thought.

 

[Guest guest]

*******He also says those who surrender on to me they easily cross over the three gunas.**********

 

The ultimate surrender is to be yuktatma. Forget your work, food, etc., etc., For such yogis God does everything. That is surrender. Thinking that I have suurendered is not surrendering.

 

True surrendering is giving the mind to him and he pays back with pure intelligence -- which is all.

 

***********

You can not stop thinking, mind is not independent, but every situation provokes a thought in you one acts on it some times by impulse or with intelligence but it is the soul who is thinking through the medium of senses some where along the line Karma plays a big part in it.

***********

 

This is the time to tell you something. Everyone has to go through vichara.

 

Japa will tighten your control but will not make you the master of your mind. I have some experience, so I am speaking about this. The moment mind wanders, I enquire "where from this thought" or "who has this thought". The obvious answer is "I". Then enquire "Who am I", with the knowledge that "I" am not the body and the thoughts are not me but the thoughts arise in me. Then who is this me? There will not be any answer but silence after a short time.

 

Since the "I" thought is primordial, the mind comes under control in time. Repeating this whenever mind wanders gives beautiful result.

 

 

******Keeping mind on god that is also an effort therefore do not be afraid of making the effort*******

 

This effort does not add karma. Or it adds good karma only.

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Namaskar Atanu ji

Re

(The ultimate surrender is to be yuktatma. Forget your work, food, etc., etc., For such yogis God does everything. That is surrender. Thinking that I have suurendered is not surrendering.)

 

Of course the show of surrendering has no meaning, but once the process of surrendering has begun the perfaction will come, with his grace.

 

 

Re

 

(This is the time to tell you something. Everyone has to go through vichara.)

 

Vichara is another way of saying thinking.

 

Re

(Japa will tighten your control but will not make you the master of your mind. I have some experience, so I am speaking about this. The moment mind wanders, I enquire "where from this thought" or "who has this thought". The obvious answer is "I". Then enquire "Who am I", with the knowledge that "I" am not the body and the thoughts are not me but the thoughts arise in me. Then who is this me? There will not be any answer but silence after a short time. )

 

I am often wondering who is this I? Ofcourse you can not see that I, why because the seer and the seen has to be two different person. Silence is not the answer.

 

RE

(Since the "I" thought is primordial, the mind comes under control in time. Repeating this whenever mind wanders gives beautiful result.)

 

Controlling the mind is not enough, fixing it on the supreme, from where there is no return, must be the goal.

 

 

******Keeping mind on god that is also an effort therefore do not be afraid of making the effort*******

re

(This effort does not add karma. Or it adds good karma only.)

 

One can not be effortless so do it the way it does not add karma.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Namaskar,

 

It is always a pleasure to debate with you.

 

****** Vichara is another way of saying thinking ******

 

Yes Vichara is a thinking process. It is in Vedas that Indra on birth kills his father -- the heaven, and again He alone kills vrittya -- the veil that stops the grace of knowledge. Indra is the divine mind.

 

Now Vichara deals with very fundamental questions. Since "I" is the primordial ahamkara and the root of all other thoughts, knowing that "I" (which is nothing but OM)and keeping the mind on "I" keeps other thoughts away. But "I" sense has a source -- the pure intelligence of Lord. With mind fixed on "I", suddenly the mind's attachment to the body (the heart knot) melts.

 

Like air within a cup may think itself to be the cup, we falsely think that we are confined within the body and actually are the body. This breaks with Vichara.

 

When the mind absorbed in "I", suddenly looses the i sense, the heart knot melts.

 

*********

I am often wondering who is this I? Ofcourse you can not see that I, why because the seer and the seen has to be two different person. Silence is not the answer.

************

 

Yes please wonder more. Find out this "I".

 

Actually you will start seeing light and light. You can play with the light and create visions or you can enquire "who sees the light?"

 

 

It is not silence in the conventional sense of no sound. I mean that to recieve grace the mind has to be tranquil. That is what I mean. Internal silence. Pranayama does it. Japa does it. But finally, one has to enquire "who is calm? Who is seeing?

 

 

One truly finds that there is absolutely no other apparatus (within you and without you) that is intelligent and can percieve and analyse and memorise and create etc., other than the primal pure intelligence Shivam.

 

This issues as the third eye as knowledge.

 

That is why Ekam Advaitam Sivam is the Turiyatta -- the undescribable goodness. This pure intelligence, that is ever there and ever will be, stays through all states of consciousness---the waking, dreaming and sleeping. But we think the states as real but not the underlying seer of the states.

 

 

*****One can not be effortless so do it the way it does not add karma.******

 

Yes effort is required for everything. And the day, that effort is seen as the work of Durga, the power of the Lord, no more it will be an effort.

 

In our present state without personal effort nothing can be done. When we see Lord's power doing everything that will be the day. Without losing the small petty personal i, that day will never come. Since, "i have done this" sense will remain.

 

Without vichara the sense of doership is not loosened even a bit.

 

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanu ji

 

Re

(It is always a pleasure to debate with you.)

 

The feeling is mutual.

 

 

Re

(Yes Vichara is a thinking process. It is in Vedas that Indra on birth kills his father -- the heaven, and again He alone kills vrittya -- the veil that stops the grace of knowledge. Indra is the divine mind.)

 

Please tell me more how did Indra kill his father?

Vrittya I believe is the demon.

It is not difficult to see the connection since Indra represent the highest opulent in the material realm, he is forever afraid of loosing it.such is our sorry state, mind is very fickle.

 

Re

(Now Vichara deals with very fundamental questions. Since "I" is the primordial ahamkara and the root of all other thoughts, knowing that "I" (which is nothing but OM)and keeping the mind on "I" keeps other thoughts away. But "I" sense has a source -- the pure intelligence of Lord. With mind fixed on "I", suddenly the mind's attachment to the body (the heart knot) melts.

Like air within a cup may think itself to be the cup, we falsely think that we are confined within the body and actually are the body. This breaks with Vichara.)

 

The small i and the big I have a relation but to think the small i disappear when the big I found is something I can not fathom. I can understand the example of air or water but the self is different. Simply because the symptom of self is consciousness therefore one can not forget to be conscious. The self is describe as ajo nityo, purano na haniyete haniye mane gaye sarire.

That which is eternal can not cease to exist. You may argue there is only one and yes there is only one but we are part of that One who has no limitation therefore we are many with in that One.i have no control, the controller is the lord I see that as a difference not reconcilable.

 

Re

(When the mind absorbed in "I", suddenly looses the i sense, the heart knot melts.)

 

I see that as a surrender of will, get out close from this material world.

 

 

Re

(Yes please wonder more. Find out this "I".

Actually you will start seeing light and light. You can play with the light and create visions or you can enquire "who sees the light?" )

 

You may argue this light is pure white, push is through a prism and you will find colors.

When you ask who sees one is always presupposes that there is one who see and the other that is seen.

 

Re

(It is not silence in the conventional sense of no sound. I mean that to recieve grace the mind has to be tranquil. That is what I mean. Internal silence. Pranayama does it. Japa does it. But finally, one has to enquire "who is calm? Who is seeing?)

 

So please tell me who is receiving the grace and who is giving?

Who needs to tranquil the mind?

 

Re

(One truly finds that there is absolutely no other apparatus (within you and without you) that is intelligent and can percieve and analyse and memorise and create etc., other than the primal pure intelligence Shivam.

This issues as the third eye as knowledge.)

 

Are you suggesting the life is merely intelligence?

 

Re

(That is why Ekam Advaitam Sivam is the Turiyatta -- the undescribable goodness. This pure intelligence, that is ever there and ever will be, stays through all states of consciousness---the waking, dreaming and sleeping. But we think the states as real but not the underlying seer of the states.)

 

So who posses the pure intelligence?

 

 

Re

(Yes effort is required for everything. And the day, that effort is seen as the work of Durga, the power of the Lord, no more it will be an effort.

In our present state without personal effort nothing can be done. When we see Lord's power doing everything that will be the day. Without losing the small petty personal i, that day will never come. Since, "i have done this" sense will remain.)

 

This is a great balancing act; we can not progress without self-effort at the same time we have to understand who is pulling the strings.

 

Re

(Without vichara the sense of doership is not loosened even a bit.)

 

We can not stop the vichara, the trick is to do the duty and forget the result. Karmena adhikaresu mafalesu kadachin.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

 

I will take some time for a full post. But most pertinent is the following, to which I put a counter question.

 

 

 

**********

The small i and the big I have a relation but to think the small i disappear when the big I found is something I can not fathom.

************

 

 

 

Say, by the grace of God, Ganesh Prasad Ji obtains a vision of of the all pervading, all omniscient, and all powerful Lord. Then also Ganesh Ji has to answer Who saw God? Can a limited being see and comprehend a full Lord?

 

Can i, a small embodied soul see the ALL? Is God vision the ultimate?

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Namaskar Atanu ji

Re

(Say, by the grace of God, Ganesh Prasad Ji obtains a vision of of the all pervading, all omniscient, and all powerful Lord. Then also Ganesh Ji has to answer Who saw God? )

 

Wonderful, it will be my good fortune if such vision was bestowed upon me.

If I obtain the vision then it must be the one who obtained it will see, is it not?

 

 

Re

(Can a limited being see and comprehend a full Lord?

Can i, a small embodied soul see the ALL?)

 

What did Arjun asked to see, having realized Krishna to be the paraBrahman.

He obtained the vision by the grace of the lord, but he finally asked to see his two-armed form and gathered his composer.

 

Yes it would be impossible to comprehend the lot but what we perceive is also purna.

What does the mandukiya Upanishad says in this relation. He is neither that which is known, nor that which is not known, nor is he the sum of all that might be known.

 

Re

(Is God vision the ultimate? )

 

Yes

 

Jai Shree Krishna