Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2005 i bow to the eashwara in evryone of u..... i dont want to get into silly discussions as who is greater shiva or vishnu...but when i see ppl calling shiva as a mere jiva and calling him inferior to visnu, i feel pity for those half filled vessels..... i have just one question....u all must be knowing this mantra which is told to us when we start our education "guru Brahma, guru Vishnu, guru devo Maheshwaraha, guru sakshat parab Brahman, nasmaishree guruve namaha" what do u understand from this.....see the adjuctives given to Brahma, Vishnu and Ishwara....only Ishvara is called Maheswaraha..... and the next line make it were clear...."guru sakshat paraBrahman" which means One God.....sakshat meand "indeed"...u will get paramBrahman when u put brahma,vishnu and shiva together....meaning God is on and he appears as brahma, vishnu and shiva when he creates,protects and destroys...... why do we forget to comprehend the real essence of Hinduism....?what else can i say to people who dont want to listen.....let God almighty bear with petty fights like this for the supremacy of His one form over the other..... it is not wrong having a eshta devatha and beliving it to be supreme...but it is wrong to consider others eshta devatha to be inferior..... OM NAMA SHIVAYA..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2005 i bow to the eashwara in evryone of u..... --i am not ishvara what do u understand from this.....see the adjuctives given to Brahma, Vishnu and Ishwara....only Ishvara is called Maheswaraha..... --Vishnu is already a definition that implies that He is ishvara and maha-ishvara. So there is no need to state it everytime u will get paramBrahman when u put brahma,vishnu and shiva together --that's not correct... the verse says that guru receives consciousness from the absolute and listening to him is like to listen directly the absolute meaning God is on and he appears as brahma, vishnu and shiva when he creates,protects and destroys...... --again you areblaspheming every deity saying that the deities are not absolute but relative to nirguna brahman why do we forget to comprehend the real essence of Hinduism....? --i askthe same question to you it is not wrong having a eshta devatha and beliving it to be supreme...but it is wrong to consider others eshta devatha to be inferior..... --your solution is that they're all inferior... not very clever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2005 Namaskar! well see ur arguments are filthy. if u want to prove me wrong answer the following points: 1.the word 'Narayana' cannot be meant to mean anyone else as per Sanskrit grammar.so giving anyone else Supremacy will go against the Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya. for u cannot interpret the word 'Narayana' in any other way. 2.the name 'Rudra' is not a monopoly. so all the sentences that attribute Paratva to Rudra deva can be meant to mean Narayana and only then Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya can be maintained. 3.Rudra deva is not above karma and hence he cannot be an avatar of Narayana. the passage that to quoted from Maha Upanishad does not mean anywhere that Rudra deva is an avatar of Narayana. 4.Narayana and Visnu are accepted as one and same in Visnu Gayathri. 5. the following is a mantra from Nrisimha Tapani Upanishad: "rudam satyam param brahma NRIKESARI VIGRAHAM krishnapingalam urdhvaretham virupaksham SANKARAM NILALOHITAM UMAPATI PASUPATI PINAKI hyabhuthadmika ISANAS SARVAVIDYANAAM ISWARAS SARVABHOOTANAAM brahmadhipathir brahmanadhipathir" note that the mantra is addressed to Nrikesari(Narasimha) and it calls him as 'Sankaram','Umapati','Pasupathi','Pinaki','Nilalohota' etc. the first two lines of this mantra are near repeat of the Narayana Sukta mantra "rudam satyam param brahma purusham krishnapingalam urdhvaretham virupaksham" the word Purusha is substituted with 'Nrikesari Vigraham' in the Nrisimha Tapani Upanishad. so the Parama Purusha(Narayana) is identified with Nrisimha. the same upanishad explains the Nrisimha anushtup mantra : "ugram veeram MAHAVISHNUM jwalantham sarvathomukham nrisimham bheeshanam bhadram mrityumrityum namamyaham" note that Narasimha is identified with MahaVishnu. Thus there is no difference between Vishnu and Narayana and the names of Rudra Deva refers to Narayana also. even 'Umapati' is not a monopoly because Lakshmi devi is also called as 'Uma' for it is one of her names. 6. the 'na'tva of Naraya'na' is a very strong argument which cannot be made away with. 7.due to the monopoly of 'Narayana' and the above mentioned characteristics of Rudra Deva's names it can be found and understood that the name 'Rudra' can be taken to mean Narayana. 8.Because Rudra and such names belong to Narayana the Vedas call the ParamaPurusha by those names too but to maintain the distinct identity of ParamaPurusha it has said: 'Narayana ParamBrahmah, tatvam Narayanah parah| Narayana Parojyothir, aatmaa Narayanah parah|'(Narayana Suktam) no other deity is called as 'ParamBrahman' - Supreme Brahman. thus the Vedas are very clear as to who is the Supreme Purusha. 9.Rudra is a name attained by Rudra Deva. the Vedic definition that u have given for Rudra cannot be attributed to Rudra deva for the name was attained by him(given by Brahma Deva) and so it is not his natural name. just because a person was named 'Devaraja', he cannot become the king of Devas. nor does the meaning of that word is meant for him. similar is the case with the name 'Rudra'. 10.the Vedic meaning which u gave is meant for Narayana for 'Rudra' is a natural nme for Him. Adi Sankara has given the same meaning to the name 'Rudra' which occurs in Vishnu Sahasranama and so also the Ramanuja and Madhva schools. 11.the following lines from UttaraAnuvaka of Purusha Sukta in Taittreya says "tamevam vidhvaan amruta ihabhavati nanyapandha vidhyatheyanaya" 'Only by kowing the ParamaPurusha can one attain Moksha. there is no other way to attain it' towards the end it says "hreeshchate Lakshmishcha patnyow" 'Hree devi(Bhoomi devi) and Lakshmi devi are Your wives' thus the ParamaPurusha is Narayana(Vishnu) as Lakshmi and Bhoomi are referred to as VishnuPatni in the Vedas. thus the Parama Purusha of Purusha Sukta is Narayana. 12. unless you try and demolish the above arguments of mine, all the quotations that you give to prove that Shiva is Bhagavan are of no use. because the word 'Rudra' and other such names refer to Narayana in those cases when Paratva is spoken about. or else it will go against the Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya which says that no two lines of the Vedas are contradictory to each other and the ParamaPurusha is only one. for if the Vedas give contradictory statements then it will lose its value as the Supreme Truth. Narayanat param nasti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2005 ________ asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH | utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH | utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH || (shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8) That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.) Sun shines because of Him. He is the person in Sun. And He is no Jiva; You crazy person. --------------------------- well where does the mantra say that the Sun shines because of Rudra deva. ur imaginations cannot become interpretations. now I have given my arguments to prove u wrong. The Purusha in the Sun is Purushottama In the first prapata’s six grantha of Chandogya Upanishad the following mantras occur: “ya yesho(a)ntaraditye hiranmaya purusho dhrushyathe hiranmayashmashrur hiranyakesha aaparanakath sarva eva suvarnah | tasya yatha kapyasam pundarikamevam akshini | tasya udh iti nama | sa esha sarvebya papmabhya udhitah | udhethi ha vai sarvebhya papmabhyo ya evam veda tasya rg cha sama cha geshnow ||” ‘In the Sun, which Purusha with golden moustache, golden hair, golden nails, every part being gold is seen , that Purusha has two eyes which are like lotus bloomed by the Sun. his name is Udh. He is above all sins. He who knows this rises out of all sins. Rg Veda and Sama Veda sing about Him’. Now I will say why these Mantras refer only to Narayana. The word ‘Purusha’ refers to Narayana as Narayana is the Parama Purusha of Purusha Sukta as said in the Uttaranuvaka(also called Narayana anuvaka) of Taittreya. The most important word is ‘Pundarikamevam akshini’ – lotus like two eyes. ‘akshini’ means two eyes. Thus the Purusha mentioned here is not Rudra. Rudra deva has three eyes not two. Pundarikaksha is a name of Narayana. No other deity is called by that name. This name of the Lord is referred to a number of times in both Ramayana and Mahabharatha. ‘sa esha sarvebya papmabhya udhitah’ – He is above all sins. This is one characteristic which differentiates Narayana from other deities. This is referred in the Gita also where Krishna says that His birth is not determined by Karma which means He is above all sins. For Karma includes both punya and papa and if one is above karma then He is above sins. ‘ ajayamano bahudha vijayathe’ of Uttara Anuvaka of Purusha Sukta means that – ‘He is unborn; He takes birth a number of times’ which means His birth is not binded by Karma while He takes births out of His own will. All these make it clear that the Person referred is Narayana. So if the Vedas elsewhere say that the person in the Sun is Rudra then we have to consider that ‘Rudra’ refers to Narayana. Because the above mantra does not suit for Rudra in any manner. Moreover according to the Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya all the mantras have to say the same thing and there must be no contradictory statements in Vedas. If one considers the Person in Sun to be Rudra then he has to reinterpret the above mantras so that they refer to Rudra which is not possible because of the above said words. Three possibilities arise in the wake of the above problem: 1. Either one has to consider the mantra which refers to Rudra as the person in the Sun to be referring to Narayana. Then the word ‘Bhagavan’ too which occurs in the mantra refers to Narayana. 2. Or else it has to be taken that by the word ‘Rudra’ the Veda refers to the Antaryami of Rudra. It is absolutely Vedic to consider it that way because Narayana Upanishad says ‘Narayanat Indro Jayathe’ while it is well known that kasyapa gave birth to Indra. By the line Upanishad refers to the Antaryami of Kasyapa directly. In the mantra of Rudram, it refers to Him indirectly. 3. The mantra in Rudram does not refer to the deity as ‘Sarvebya papmabhya’ which is one of the most special characteristic of the ParamBrahman. If one tries to take the word ‘Bhagawan’ to be referring to Rudra as Lord and above normal Jivas then those lines of Shatapatha Brahmana which refer to the Karmavash birth of Rudra stand false. Those lines too cannot be reinterpreted in any other way. Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya is also clear that there can be only one KaranaPurusha and He alone is Parabrahman. Therefore even if one considers the mantra to be referring to Rudra then it has to be taken that Rudra is one of those who travel in the Sun just like the Adityas, Apsaras etc. The word ‘Bhagavo’ need not mean Rudra is Brahman. There are lines which say Sky is Brahman and this line is taken to mean that as sky has some quality(unending,very large) of Parama Purusha which can be identified (though the quality is not of the same quantity as that of Lord), the sky is reffered to as Brahman just as it is normal to say Suka Brahman. Therefore the word Bhagawan is to be taken in the same way or else it will go against the Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya and the reason is clear for the Vedas call only Narayana as ParamBrahmah and no other deity is referred as Parambrahmah. Thus it is crystal clear that the Purusha in the Sun is Narayana and none else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2005 know it without doubt. 7:40:5 asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat Meaning: I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya). On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strength(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothers have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food. see Rudra got His strength by knowing about the Ishwara shakti of Vishnu. knowing about the Lord is also a form of Bhakti(eg. Shravana - listening to Lord's glories). Thus Rudra is inferior to Vishnu. there is not a single verse which says Narayana(or Vishnu) got His Strength(powers) by knowing about or worshipping any other deity. narayanat param nasti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2005 --------------------------- Krishna says "Rudranam Shankarasmi" in Gita.It means among 11 Rudras,Shankara form has Krishna Anugraham as it follows "Adityanama Aham Vishnu:". Sri Rudram is central part of Yajur veda that prays to Shiva.Can you find a hymn in Veda for Sanath kumaras?No because they are jivas.So dont compare Shiva with Sanath Kumaras. -------------------------- In Gita 10.31 Krishna says " Among fishes I am shark" does it mean that shark is not a Jiva. note that in the same verse He calls Himself to be Rama among warriors. Avatars are Supreme Lord's vibhutis but all His vibhutis(glories) are not His Avatars and Shiva is not an Avatar. you have accepted Brahma to be a Jiva. Do you know that Brahma also has verses in His Praise in the Vedas. so also Agni, Vayu, Varuna etc have. I believe u have never read Veda mantras. --------------------------- And what about Srimad Bhagavtam portraying Shiva as a personality?You may treat other puranas as low level but this Bhagavatam is greater than vedas as you people glorify Divya Prapandam. --------------------------- while we do glorify Divya Prabandham we do not tke it as a pramana to prove any point. so also is the case of Bhagavatham. please note that we do not consider anything to be greater than the Vedas for the veds are 'Apaurusheya' not written by anyone but the Puranas are not so. -------------------------- And the work Desika Darshnam is criticized by Tenkalai as against Acharya Bhakthi. --------------------------- there is no such work called Desika Darshanam written by any prominent acharya. u are showing ur ignorance of Sri Vaishnavism. --------------------------- With so many court cases on Temple Namam marks,no doubt the burning fanaticsm on you has exploited the very mission of his holiness Sri . Ramanuja Bhagavad Padal. See,I know the Sri Vaishnavism but I know even more of how they are now exploiting their own Acharya Ramanuja.He totally aborted caste differences and converted so many into Vaishnavas. --------------------------- while it is true that there were so many cases on this regard, these faults are with humans and not with the philosophy. our philosophy is crystal clear that Rudra deva is Jiva. If u know Sri Vaishnavism as u claim u should have known this very well. while Ramanuja was against untouchability he was certainly not against caste hierarchy as such. he accepted the caste system mentioned in Manu Smriti and was oppossed to untouchability which does not find any place in the scriptures. --------------------------- But now I go to a Lokacharya's succession and ask for Pancha Samskara initiation.He wont give that.I know.In Srirangam for throwing 100 rupees at priests you can have hour long darshan of Periya Perumal while thousands are waiting in queue.It happens man.When Ragnadhar comes for Jeeyarpuram for a festival,low class men are not allowed to view his darshan. --------------------------- if u want to have Pancha samskara, go to Ahobila Mutt where they will do it.If that particular Acharya whom u mentioned has refused to do it it was his own decision for which he might have some reason. even if u consider his decision is wrong it is the mistake of a person and not of our philosophy. as for the temple at SriRangam now u are committing Bhagavatha Apachara by speaking ill of Lord's Devotees and for ur information the situation is no different in Puri or Vrndavana where it is money which matters. I don't know about the festival in Jeeyarpuram but I know that there are certain customs which allow only Brahmanas to take part in a few festivals. I am opposed to this custom and hope that the situation will change in the near future. a majority of the Sri Vaishnavas are not involved in the Kalai fights and only some fanatics are doing it. it will die with those fanatics. --------------------------- You people take what you want to give food to the burning ego inside and say that ISKCON is wrong. --------------------------- have u read the biography of Prabhupada. u will find what is the case with His godbrothers. don't complain about Sri Vaishnavas alone. ur philosophy that Radha is superior to Lakshmi has no authority in the Vedas or in Bhagavatham. that is where we are against ur philosophy. similarly when u say that Krishna is above Narayana or GOloka is above Vaikuntha we will not accept it for they are found in the Vedas. That is it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 5, 2005 "have u read the biography of Prabhupada. u will find what is the case with His godbrothers. " do not be superficial.. do not behave like a materialist... study better the matter before judge.. no real fight was there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganeshprasad 0 Report post Posted May 5, 2005 Jai Ganesh Pranam Saranathan ji I see all your argument hinges on claiming all the names belong to Narayan so much so that Umapati also has to be claimed or else whole of your reasoning falls apart when ever other Devas are extolled you would dismiss it, in this way this doubt will go on for ever, at least for you. A lot of people will see your argument for what it is. We all except Brahma creates, Vishnu maintains and Rudra destroys Lord Krishna clearly says in chapter 10 in Gita, I am the beginning the middle and the end and further in chapter 13 he states avibhaktam ca bhutesu vibhaktam iva ca sthitam bhuta-bhartr ca taj jneyam grasisnu prabhavisnu ca Although the supreme appears to be divided, He is never divided. He is situated as one. Although He is the maintainer of every living entity, it is to be understood that He devours and develops all. You are welcome to hold the view that Rudra is a Jiva. Either Rudra destroys the creation at the end or a Jiva does you have to make your mind up. If it is Rudra who is this Rudra? Claiming all the names for Narayan is appropriate only if he goes by different forms. That is why the vakiya of Vedas proclaims, Indram mitram varuNam agnim ãhuh, atho divyah sa suparNo garutmãn, ekam sad viprãh bahudhã vadanti, agnim yamam mãtarišvãnam ãhuh. They hail Him as Indra, as Mitra, as VaruNa, as Agni, also as that divine and noble-winged Garutmãn. It is of One Existence that the wise ones speak in diverse ways, whether as Agni, or as Yama, or as Mãtarišvãn. Why should it bother you too much, if as you claim all the names belong to Narayan, those who call the father and mother by those names will he not answer? Or do you think in this instance the lord will disown those names? Jai Shree Krishna Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2005 Hi Ganeshprasadji, It is useless to argue with people like Saranathan.In one simple word they are like 'Aleliya' group of christians. No matter what you explain they cannot understand,because they dont want to understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thiruvengadam 0 Report post Posted May 6, 2005 exactly.....well said....i signed in to give them few sharp words but what use......ur comparison of them with the "alaluya" christians is apt.....no one can change these fools.....they make my blood hot.....its better not to read their post....hell with them they are not fit to be called Hindus.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2005 {while Ramanuja was against untouchability he was certainly not against caste hierarchy as such. he accepted the caste system mentioned in Manu Smriti and was oppossed to untouchability which does not find any place in the scriptures.} Are you sure about this? I had thought Ramanuja was totally against caste and included all castes as his followers. What you're saying is quite different. Where did you hear otherwise? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2005 Your citations are not filthy, they are divine. All your citations support me. ******* even 'Umapati' is not a monopoly because Lakshmi devi is also called as 'Uma' for it is one of her names.******* You will see clearly when you meditate on the above staement of yours. ******** Maha Upanishad does not mean anywhere that Rudra deva is an avatar of Narayana.************* Well Maha Narayana Up. says as below I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) and therefore superior and elevated like a peak and affording protection. The Jiva who is his abode grows to be infinite. He is the Lord who delights the individual souls by guiding according to their deeds and conferring on them fruits of their actions. Maha Up. says as below Iv-83-87. Be devoted to Samvid, with single attention, giving up the non-spiritual attitude and unaffected by the condition of the world. In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness. He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle. Mandyuka up. says as below: 12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Siva and the advaitam. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self. Svet Up. says as below: shvetAshvatara upaniShad eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | Jabali Sruti says as below sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH | ******* rudram satyam param brahma purusham krishnapingalam urdhvaretham virupaksham********* You cite in my favour. rudram satyam param brahma purusham ********** ugram veeram MAHAVISHNUM jwalantham sarvathomukham nrisimham bheeshanam bhadram mrityumrityum namamyaham" *********** What makes you think Mahavishnum and Vishnu are same? Mahavishnu is not a vedic name. Atanu and maha atanu are not same. ****** the Vedic definition that u have given for Rudra cannot be attributed to Rudra deva for the name was attained by him(given by Brahma Deva)************** I have told you that I consider you naive. This is funny also. When Vedas say specifically of Rudra you say this does not pertain to Rudra Deva. You are a fool. I am sorry that I have to repeat it. Nama ataryaya chaladyaya cha Salutations to Him who is born again and again in Samsara and who tastes the fruits of Karmas in the form of Jiva. And also: Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost. Nama Ashave chajiraya cha Salutations to Him who pervades all and moves swiftly. Sixth Anuvaka Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all. Namo Madhya maya chapagalbhaya cha Salutations to Him who appears in the middle, and who appears undeveloped. Rudra is param brahman and Rudra is Jiva. Rudra is all. So, eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | Become un emotional baby. Do not see filth in others. See it in yourself first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2005 ****** unless you try and demolish the above arguments of mine, all the quotations that you give to prove that Shiva is Bhagavan are of no use. ********* You have demolished yourself with your arguments. What you call arguments are just ramblings. Shri Rudram 1.10 pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h | yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10) bhagavo - O Bhagavan Shri Rudram 1.10 pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h | yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10) bhagavo - O Bhagavan O Bhagavan (God) Rudra! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand. Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah || Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies. Note: Namaste astu bhagavaha Jabali Up. sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH | The all-knowing Ishvara, the lord of all, and enodowed with the (power of performing) the five kinds of actions is called pashupatiH (the lord of the jIvas or pashus). Can you read? There is no need for us to take recourse to Grammar to rove that Shiva is bhagavan. And please do not insult Vedas any more. It is not good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 6, 2005 ********know it without doubt. 7:40:5 asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat Meaning: I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya). On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strength(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothers have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food. ************* Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God Rig veda 7:46 7.046.02 He is known by his rule over those of terrestrial birth, by his sovereignty over celestial beings; protecting our progeny, Rudra, propitiating you (by praise), come to our dwellings, and be to them a guardian against disease. SO RUDRA IS THE SELF-DEPENDENT GOD WHO YIELDETH TO NO SECOND AND WHO HAS SOVEREIGNTY OVER TERRESTRIAL AND CELESTIAL BEINGS Your translation is 100% wrong and against common sense. Try to fool others who do not read in full. "rudriyam mahitvam" means Rudra deva's glory or strength. So, Visnu is Rudra Devas glory or strength and I accept this. There is no question of Rudra worshipping a second. In 7:40:5, Visnu is propitiated by sages for being Rudra’s Rudra power. That’s all. Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10. Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. RV Book 1 HYMN CLXIV. Visvedevas (Asya Vamiya Suktam) 34 I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is the centre of the world, I ask thee. I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of highest heaven where Speech abideth. 35 This altar is the earth's extreme limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre. Soma is the seed prolific the all pervading Sun; this Brahman is the highest heaven where Speech abideth. Note: Visnu who is the ordainer of seven rays has his own seed in Soma who is highest where Vak resides. YV i. 8. 6. c Thou art the protection of cattle, the protection of the sacrifice; give me protection. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. YV vi. 5. 6. ---------- The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in (the creatures for two deities ----- See Adiyas run away. The Sun shines because of fear of Him. The wind blows because of fear of Him. Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra. -------- 27 When Visnu, through thine energy strode wide those three great steps, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on. Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra. 1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise. 9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight. RV Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra. 1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong. 2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might VISHNU THROUGH INDRA’S ENERGY CREATES THE SPACE. VISHNU SINGS, PRAISES AND LAUDS INDRA. Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas 9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard. 11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise. ADITI AND VISHNU MERIT AND CLAIM PRAISE ON ACCOUNT OF THESE SONGS WHICH ARE IN PRAISE OF SELF BRIGHT AUSPICIOUS RUDRA Your translation is wrong. This has been proved time and again. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. YV vi. 5. 6. ---------- The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in (the creatures for two deities ----- One who yieldeth to none need not worship any other. But your response is known in advance and we will not give any credence to those. What I cite here is as record so that your foolishness of demeaning yourself does not affect others. You are demeaning yourself since Rudra-Shiva is your Self -- the being that says "I" in you. “Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8. (Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.” Note: (Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of Sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava; Go ahead and demean yourself. Om Namah Shri Vasudevayya Namah Om Namah Sivayya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2005 -------------------------- "rudriyam mahitvam" means Rudra deva's glory or strength. So, Visnu is Rudra Devas glory or strength and I accept this. -------------------------- you do not take into account the word 'vide hi' in the verse. also you are saying that my translation is 100% wrong. u opposed only one word's interpretation and u say 100% wrong. u become too much emotional. 'mahitvam' means glory? Sayana translates the word as 'Power' while u claim that you are more intelligent than Sayana, who was also an Advaitin. so here is a man who can teach Sanskrit to Sayana!! what a wonder when u just do not understand about the speciality of 'Narayana' name which is accepted in Sanskrit Grammar. --------------------------- 35 This altar is the earth's extreme limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre. Soma is the seed prolific the all pervading Sun; this Brahman is the highest heaven where Speech abideth. Note: Visnu who is the ordainer of seven rays has his own seed in Soma who is highest where Vak resides. -------------------------- what an interpretation! Visnu resides in the Sun and is the Antaryami of Sun as He is the Antaryami of every Chit and Achit thing. If it has to be taken that Visnu has his seed in Soma because Sun has its seed in Soma then it can be said for every other thing. eg. because a person has seed in his father Visnu too has his seed in that father. try to think in a proper way. don't let ur imaginations to run riots. --------------------------- Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. --------------------------- this does not mean anywhere that Rudra is the Supreme and Soma too is worshipped. no one is saying that Rudra is a powerless deity. so u need not quote this verse again and again. --------------------------- Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra. 1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise. 9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight. RV Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra. 1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong. 2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might VISHNU THROUGH INDRA’S ENERGY CREATES THE SPACE. VISHNU SINGS, PRAISES AND LAUDS INDRA. -------------------------- I have already proved that Narayana and Visnu are one and the same and Narayana Upanishad says 'Narayanat Indro Jayate'. to interpret Veda vakyas one should have the knowledge of the various nyayas which govern the interpretation of Vedas. or else one should use the translation made by an authority in Vedas. u do none of the above. Sayana says that Visnu is applauding the power of Indra and not worshipping him. also while interpreting book 8 hymn XII Sayana says " Visnu took those great steps for your energy(power), then you(Indra) strode on your two beautiful Steeds. " there are certain special features in Sanskrit grammar. if u still say that Visnu took those steps through Indra's energy then give a word by word translation for the Hymn. for u have made thae Purvapaksha and when it is rejected u have u prove it again with proper reasons. U never do that instead u keep on repeting the same verse again and again and a lie acnnot become truth by saying again and again. (eg Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10. - I rejected that the verse shows Rudra paratva. U never answered but have repeated it in this post). ---------------------------ADITI AND VISHNU MERIT AND CLAIM PRAISE ON ACCOUNT OF THESE SONGS WHICH ARE IN PRAISE OF SELF BRIGHT AUSPICIOUS RUDRA ============================================================ By Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya I will say that the Rudra refers not to Rudra deva but to Narayana who is the Supreme Purusha. u just do not say why my arguments are wrong but reject them as per ur will. this shows ur hypocrisy. ========================================================== Your translation is wrong. This has been proved time and again. =========================================================== so Sayana is wrong and u are right. if that is so prove ur arguments with a word by word translation. that will show us how far u are familiar with Sanskrit grammar for time and again u prove ur ignorance. ============================================================ “Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8. (Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.” ============================================================ once again these verses are meant for Narayana as per Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya. u just do not even try to counter my 'na'tva vada and u just keep on parroting that Rudra deva is Self and so on. u lose ur credibility by such things. ============================================================ But your response is known in advance and we will not give any credence to those. ============================================================ in fact I repeat the same for u just does not know how to argue. when i said that Visnu is an avatar of Narayana, u were not able to counter it and it proved that Visnu is beyond the normal birth. I said that Rudra is anapahatapapma and I had quoted from Shatapatha Brahmana the verses and u never tried to reinterpret trhem to prove otherwise but just gave other verses for that purpose. by this ur efforts result in the demolishing of Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya by which there should be no contradictions in Vedas. Narayanat Param Nasti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2005 I am going out of town for ten days and there is no internet connection in that village. so i'll be back after ten days. ============================================================ rudram satyam param brahma purusham krishnapingalam urdhvaretham virupaksham You cite in my favour. rudram satyam param brahma purusham ============================================================ where have i cited as above. i have cited 'rudam satyam'. see u are just becoming too emotional to see what I have written. don't try to mislead others by misinterpreting the mantras and twisting the mantras. ============================================================ Mandyuka up. says as below: 12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Siva and the advaitam. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self. --------------------------- it says 'shivam advaitam' and 'shivam' is an attribute rather than a name. but there are certain rules which enables such an interpretation but even then 'Shivam' does not refer to Shiva/Rudra Deva. Shivam means 'Mangalam' and 'Shiva' is a name of Visnu also. I have already said that even Sankaracharya has accepted it. also there are famous statements like 'yo brahmanam vidadathi poorvam' and 'yatho va imani boothani jayanthe yesha jatani jivanthi tad vijigvyaasva tad brahmah' these statements are the anuvadhas of the first stanza of Narayana Upanishad.(.....Narayanat Brahma jayathe ......... Narayanadeva samudpadyante......). thus clearly the Parabrahman is Narayana and there is no vakya saying Rudra is Parambrahman only Narayana is called 'Narayana Parambrahma'(Narayana Suktam). ============================================================ ******* even 'Umapati' is not a monopoly because Lakshmi devi is also called as 'Uma' for it is one of her names.******* You will see clearly when you meditate on the above staement of yours. ============================================================ see u have once again showed ur cheap thinking capacity for Lakshmi and Bhoomi are always called as Vishnupatni. Lakshmi Gayathri says ' mahadevyai ca vidmahe visnupatnyai ca dheemahi thanno lakshmi prachodayat'.(Sri Suktam) also bhhomi devi is called "visnupatnim mahim...... madhavapriyam.......... namami achyuta vallbham" by saying that Uma is a name of Lakshmi I meant that Umapati is a name of Narayana but Lakshmipati is not a name of Rudradeva because Lakshmi is not accepted as a name of Umadevi. u show ur ignorance of Sanskrit time and again. ============================================================ What makes you think Mahavishnum and Vishnu are same? Mahavishnu is not a vedic name. ============================================================ the name is found in NrisimhaTapani Upanishad which is quoted by Sankara,Madhva as well as Ramanuja. u say that 'MahaVishnu' is not Vedic. Strange!! also Brahmadeva tells the Devatas the meaning of each and every word of the anushtup mantra and he explains 'Mahavishnu' as 'Visnu'. Don't compare ur name with that of Visnu for there can be no comparison between a jiva and an avatar of the Supreme Purusha. ============================================================ I have told you that I consider you naive. This is funny also. When Vedas say specifically of Rudra you say this does not pertain to Rudra Deva. You are a fool. I am sorry that I have to repeat it. ============================================================ once again u try to hide ur ignorance behind ur emotional outbursts. I give u the specific reasons. u do not even try to counter them and u call me naive and fool. this shows ur helplessness and ignorance. i feel that arguing with a person like u who is absolutely ignorant of both Sanskrit and the way to interpret Vedas as per the Nyayas governing it is an absolute waste. so u keep on blabbering for the next ten days. even then u will not even counter even a single letter of my argument. funny is the way in which u argue. probably this is the way Shaivites argue for they have no strong point to argue. Narayana Upanishad says '...divyo deva eko narayanah' and 'Karana Purusham akarana parabrahmom'. why don't u take cognisance of the above vakyas? Sarva vedanta pratyaya nyaya has to be followed and there cannot be two Brahmans. so only if Narayana is considered as Brahman can all the mantras remain uncontradictory. the mantras u quote are from Vedas but ur arguments are unvedic for u neither follow grammar('na'tva) nor the various nyayas. ============================================================ Rudra is param brahman and Rudra is Jiva. Rudra is all. ============================================================ where has the Vedas called Rudra to be 'Param Brahman'? don't try to impose upon others your own imaginations. there should be a limit for any misbehaviour. u have none. u just keep on lying that Rudra is Parambrahman when the Vedas do not call him by that name anywhere. finally to understand the vedas one has to know grammar. no one can say that i need not know any grammar to say that a particular deity is the Parabrahman of the Vedas. how can one ever say that when he does not even understand those mantras? the truth is one; it is eternal. Narayanat Param Nasti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2005 Namaskar A small reply for the time being. Learn Sanskrit. Be Logical and consistent. That is what you need. *****Rudra is not Powerful by His nature****** Above was your header in a post and now you say. ****** no one is saying that Rudra is a powerless deity ***** Anyway, a small thing. Bigger ones will emerge automatically. The point is the Sun shines because of Rudra-Soma (same diety Shiva). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2005 the argument of Saranathan has some credibility. his argument is mainly based upon the peculiarity of the name 'Narayana' which attains credibility from Panini's sutra - 'purvapadath samgyayam agah'. I am a shaivite and am used to argue with Sri Vaishnavas. Infact this peculiarity of 'Narayana' and the condition laid by Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya is the foundation of their argument. I plead someone who has a good knowledge in Sanskrit to try and break this argument. or else one cannot prove that Rudra is Supreme God. from the arguments of Saranathan I can find that he does not know much about the ways in which his Acharyas interpret Vedas. for they will easily answer each counter made by the 'Om nama Shivayya - guest' and finally will come back to Narayana name to prove their point. for time being I can say one thing Saranathan's knowledge is very primary. one example for how Sri Vaishnavas used to argue: they will say Rudra is not powerful by nature but attains His power from Narayana and hence Rudra is not a powerless deity but His power is not a part of His natural character. it is an attained character. see the Sri Vaishnavas are damn fanatics and one cannot convince them so easily. I have suffered a lot at their hands during arguments for they combine grammar,Vedas and Nyayas to prove their points. they will even quote Sankara and Madhva and they will say that Sankara was a Vaishnava. I wish that the Shaivite Guest break the arguments of Saranathan and it will be a bit easy to break his arguments for he is not so well versed which can be seen from his posts but he is a bit learned in Sanskrit which probably gives him an edge. most postings are made by Shaivites who do not give credence to his arguments. this is an easy field for the shaivites. the posts by Shaivites are more than enough. u have to just break the foundation and his arguments will collapse. find whether there is any exception to the sutra quoted above. i am unable to find one. if one does not find that the Sri Vaishnavas will say that wherever Supremacy is shown or Visnu is said to derive energy from someone the deity is Narayana - no matter whatever the name in the mantra be. I believe that Rudra is the Supreme God but find it difficult to make these aware of the truth. anyway hoping for victory of the truth Rajan Iyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2005 {they will even quote Sankara and Madhva and they will say that Sankara was a Vaishnava.} That is just because he wrote Braja Govindam and did a cooometary on the Gita they think he's Vaishnava. About Sankara, I heard he was not evean a Shaivite, he was a Smarta which sees all the gods as different mainfestations of Brahman. No god is higher or lower! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2005 wich is the foundation of your faith if you are defeated in all discussions by sri vaishnavas? an intelligent man, if he sees that his principles are irrational or not based on scriptures, he changes such principles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 9, 2005 The argument of Saranathan is credible but will he accept the full implication? And does he understand what the implications are? No Hindu will deny that Narayana is the Supreme being, Narayana is the Self – one's own flame. He is Param Brahman, Self, Purusha. But the verse “eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’ is also true, some Vaishnavs do not accept. That is their misfortune. He says that verses have to be reconciled then let him reconcile 'eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’ and understand the implications. This is true vedanta. He simply does not realise. Saranath does not understand Narayana at all. The crux of the matter is that He wants to prove Lord Vishnu alone is Narayana and since by ‘na tattwa’ he strives to prove that no one else can be Narayana. He implies that Lord Vishnu is alone the Param Braham (or even above). Only support he has is Vishnu Sahasrnama of Purana. And he (actually his teachers) ignore Sata-Rudriya. He repeats ‘once again these verses are meant for Narayana as per Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya’. His na tattwa is .. Actually, Param Brahman is beyond Vac. And by na tattwa (another name of neti neti), Visnu (as name) cannot be Narayana. And finally Narayana will be na-na. I have till now ignored it but on your insistence I write a few lines. 'na'tva vada is actually neti-neti. Let us examine the Shruti is “eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’. Now, Saranath says here Rudra refers to Narayana. It is a different thing that shruti cannot be altered and words cannot be replaced. But still for arguments sake I will go along. Now, as Narayana alone is Rudra let us reread ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’ as ‘eko hi Narayano na dvitIyAya tasthu’. That means Narayana alone is there. There is no second. So, there is no Rudra and as he says that Rudra is Jiva, so there is no Jiva. All that is, is Narayana alone. Well this suits me. But I know it does not suit Saranatha. Moreover, if Shruti says: ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’, that means, there is nothing out of Rudra, nothing apart from Rudra. Rudra is full. And if someone says it is not Rudra but Narayana then he should accept the Shruti fully that there is no second being but Narayana alone. So, Rudra and Narayana are not two different things. When there is no second then how can be the same fullness be applied to two beings? And one verse cannot cancel another. When there is Narayana alone then He is full and all his other names are full and jiva does not exist as there is no second. And Rudram is Rud and Ram—all inclusive. But that is not needed. The Vedic Satarudriya makes it clear that Rudra-Sivam is Soma, Indra, Cipivista (Visnu), Vamana (Visnu), Viswarupa (Visnu-Aditi), Lord Parjanya, Ganapati, Shiva, Shambhu, all Goddesses and He has entered in air, fire, water, and he is the shining soul of all gods. In short Rudra-Shiva is the Param Atma and all appearances also. And there is shruti to prove it: ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’ And there are many other proofs. The self dependent god, the wise, the conqueror, whom none may overcome -- Rudra thinks all things and beings on the earth and heaven through his powers. His bright arrow is Visnu. RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call. 2 He through his lordship thinks all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power. Book 10 HYMN XC. Purusa. 1. A THOUSAND heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet. On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide. From YV Shri Rudram Shri Rudram 1.9 namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe | atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH || May my salutations be to the blue-throated, He who has a thousand eyes and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas. Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah | Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi || In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us. So sata Rudriya of Yajur Veda make it amply clear as to who has the thousand eyes and arms. I am not a Saivaite and I am not bound by preferences. The truth is that there is one being and one being alone. No second to that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 9, 2005 ***** I believe that Rudra is the Supreme God but find it difficult to make these aware of the truth. ****** You belief is true. But it is not your duty to make others aware of the truth. Since even gods exclude him. YV ii. 6. 8. The gods excluded Rudra from the sacrifice; he pierced the sacrifice, the gods gathered round it (saying), 'May it be right for us.' They said, 'Well offered will this be for us, if we propitiate him.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 9, 2005 Namaskar *************** -------------------------- "rudriyam mahitvam" means Rudra deva's glory or strength. So, Visnu is Rudra Devas glory or strength and I accept this. -------------------------- you do not take into account the word 'vide hi' in the verse. ----- 'mahitvam' means glory? Sayana translates the word as 'Power' while u claim that you are more intelligent than Sayana, who was also an Advaitin. ******************** Read what I wrote: "rudriyam mahitvam" means Rudra deva's glory or strength. Note strength. And you abuse me unnecessarily comparing with Sayana who instead of strength uses power. Yes, I agree that Vishnu deva is Rudra’s Rudra power. Knowing this (Vide Hi) sages propitiate Vishnu. Actually Vishnu is Devi, since Devi upholds him. And read it with YV I. 8. 6. D RUDRA ALONE YIELDETH TO NO SECOND, to understand it fully. If my intelligence is praised, it does not mean that the intelligence is my boss. All Devas are His powers. The crux of the matter is that in your mind Lord Vishnu alone is Narayana and since without understanding you use ‘na tattwa’ to prove that no one else can be Narayana, you imply that Lord Vishnu is alone the Param Braham (or even above). You are the one who keeps parroting ‘once again these verses are meant for Narayana as per Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya’. Your na tattwa is .. Actually, Param Brahman is beyond Vac. And by your philosophy, even Visnu cannot be Narayana. And finally Narayana will be na-na. I have till now ignored it but as on your insistence I write a few lines. 'na'tva vada is actually neti-neti. We had also seen that some one else (yajamana) is the bolt of Indra and steps of Vishnu. YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu Some one else is actually the bolt of Indra and the vast stride of Vishnu. You said that someone else is yajamana and actually he is as strong as Visnu and Indra. Language is not that. Verse says ‘Thou art the stride of Vishnu’. Let us examine the verse “eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’. Now, you say here Rudra refers to Narayana. It is a different thing that verse cannot be altered and words replaced. But still for arguments sake I will go along. Now, as Narayana alone is Rudra let us reread ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’ as ‘eko hi Narayano na dvitIyAya tasthu’. That means Narayana alone is there. There is no second. So, there is no Rudra and as you say that Rudra is Jiva, so there is no Jiva. All that is, is Narayana alone. Well this suits me and I believe since it conforms to the upanishadic saying that the eternal truth is Siva with his consort. But I know it does not suit you. Moreover, if Shruti says: ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’, that means, there is nothing out of Rudra, nothing apart from Rudra. Rudra is full. And if someone says it is not Rudra but Narayana then he should accept the Shruti fully that there is no second being but Narayana alone. So, Rudra and Narayana are not two different things. When there is no second then how can be the same fullness be applied to two beings? When there is Narayana alone then He is full and all his other names are full and jiva does not exist as there is no second. One can imagine anything. And Rudram is Rud and Ram—all inclusive. To prove your points which you repeat again and again, you take recourse to Vishnu sahasranama and quote Sankaracharya. It is funny that you do not want to consider sata Rudriya (Vedic) and rely on Puranas. And also typical is your attempt to draw support from Sankaracharya, an advaitin, who truly believes “Soham” and Thou (Vishnu) art That (Siva). Moreover, be consistent and consult hundred names of Shiva also from Puranas. But that is not needed. The Vedic Satarudriya makes it clear that Rudra-Sivam is Soma, Indra, Cipivista (Visnu), Vamana (Visnu), Viswarupa (Visnu-Aditi), Lord Parjanya, Ganapati, Shiva, Shambhu, all Goddesses and He has entered in air, fire, water, and he is the shining soul of all gods. In short Rudra-Shiva is the Param Atma and all appearances also. And there is shruti to prove it: ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’ And there are many other proofs. The self dependent god, the wise, the conqueror, whom none may overcome -- Rudra pervades all things and beings on the earth and heaven through high imperial power. His bright arrow is Visnu. RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call. 2 He through his lordship thinks all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power. Rudra manifested (not actual birth) when Brahma lusted after his creation Usha. He was manifested as conscience through which he rules every being as Pasupati. He was not born of sexual congress. Book 10 HYMN XC. Purusa. 1. A THOUSAND heads hath Purusa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet. On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide. From YV Shri Rudram Shri Rudram 1.9 namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe | atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH || May my salutations be to the blue-throated, He who has a THOUSAND EYES and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas. Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah | Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi || In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us. So sata Rudriya of Yajur Veda make it amply clear as to who has the thousand eyes and arms. Narayana is Purusha. Narayana is concsiuosness – the abode of Nara. This is clear from Maha Narayana Upanishad: MAHA NARAYANA UPANISHAD XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without. ‘whatsoever is known through perception and known from distance is pervaded by Narayana’. This is consciousness, which has no name but is the true. Om Namah Sivayya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 9, 2005 ***************** ============================================================ “Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8. (Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.” ============================================================ once again these verses are meant for Narayana as per Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya. u just do not even try to counter my 'na'tva vada and u just keep on parroting that Rudra deva is Self and so on. u lose ur credibility by such things. *************************** Your na tattwa vada is really na tattwa vada. It is incomprehensible. When asked to note: (Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava ---- the saranatha ji says (as usual) that this is Narayana and not Shiva. I ask is ‘lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava;’ is not Shiva? Just imagine when shruti says: ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’, as per great natha guy it means ‘eko hi Narayana na dvitIyAya tasthu and Rudra is Jiva’ If “(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of sakti through might; creator with the Vrishava” refers to Narayana then what is your problem in worshipping that being who manifests with bull and is with sakti? What is your problem? Only your vision is narrow. I would have accepted if you had only said: ‘eko hi Narayana na dvitIyAya tasthu’. But you say that all shruti have to be reconciled. Then why you do not reconcile ‘eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu’? And why you add that Siva is Jiva when Jabali shruti says: Pasupati is Sarvaswara? jAbAlyupanishhad of the sAma veda: sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH | The all-knowing Ishvara, the lord of all, and endowed with the (power of performing) the five kinds of actions is called pashupatiH (the lord of the jIvas or pashus). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 9, 2005 ********** see u have once again showed ur cheap thinking capacity for Lakshmi and Bhoomi are always called as Vishnupatni. Lakshmi Gayathri says ' mahadevyai ca vidmahe visnupatnyai ca dheemahi thanno lakshmi prachodayat'.(Sri Suktam) also bhhomi devi is called "visnupatnim mahim...... madhavapriyam.......... namami achyuta vallbham" **************** What is cheap? You want to consult 100 names of Visnu and Lakshmi ant hundreed names of Siva and Durga. See here lies the problem. You are far from seeing the ONE Lord as one with all powers (Maha Devi). Mahadevi is all manifestation. Rudra is all Devis as well. I have to repeat a verse from YV: 4th ANUVAKA Shri Rudram Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo | Salutations to you who are in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses. And Devi is also ONE and ONLY ONE. RV Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas. 10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born The name Aditi itself is indicative that She is one and all. It is your ill luck that you do not see beyond the variety of Vak, thereby relegating Shiva to Jiva status that prompts all this. You really do not know Narayana. Saying Shiva is Jiva is Sin and I do not have to prove or disprove this. Rudra inside you will prove it. Whereas read from Devi Upanishad that Lakshmi herself is Siva and has root in Siva (as also shown above in Shri Rudram). And DEVI upholds Vishnu. Your base will fall down and your ego will be bruised. Devi Upanishad, included in the Atharva-Veda 5. I uphold Soma, Tvastir, Pusan and Bhaga, The wide-stepping Vishnu, Brahma, Prajapati. 8. Those gods said: Salutation to the Goddess, the great Goddess ! To Siva, the auspicious, salutation, for ever more. To blessed Prakriti, salutation ! Ever to Her we bow. 11. To holy Siva, to Daksha’s daughter, To Aditi and Sarasvati, To Skanda’s Mother, Vishnu’s Power, To Night of death by Brahma lauded, We render obeisance. 12. Know we, Great Lakshmi, Goddess of good Fortune; On all fulfilment do we meditate. May the Goddess inspire us ! 20. Seed all-powerful of the Goddess’ mantra, Is sky, conjoined with ‘i’ and fire, With crescent moon adorned. Note: You will not be able to absorb the above Upanishad. Devi, Skanda’s mother, Vishnu’s power (Lakshmi) is the one fire, who is crescent moon adorned. This is the meaning when Puranas say that Siva resides Visnu’s heart and Visnu resides in Siva’s heart. The crescent moon decked being is the root of auspicious Lakshmi and himself supremely auspicious. But you will not understand it. And also note: 5. I uphold Soma, Tvastir, Pusan and Bhaga, The wide-stepping Vishnu, Brahma, Prajapati. Note: Devi upholds ‘Soma, Tvastir, Pusan and Bhaga, The wide-stepping Vishnu, Brahma, Prajapati.’ That is why: RV Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas. 10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born And also see Sita Upanishad from Atharva Veda: 2. Being the first cause Sita is known as Prakriti; of Pranava, too, She is cause And so is named Prakriti. 3. Maya in very essence, Is Sita, of three letters formed. Called Vishnu, the world-seed, And Maya, too, is the letter i. 4. The letter sa denotes truth immortal; Achievement; Siva with his consort. Ta denotes the Queen of Speech United with Brahman, the Deliverer. Note: 4. The letter sa denotes truth immortal; Achievement; Siva with his consort. And also note 3. Maya in very essence, Is Sita, of three letters formed. Called Vishnu, the world-seed, And Maya, too, is the letter i. Narayana Suktam Verse XII: In the middle of that tongue of flame the Supreme Self abides firmly. He is Brahma, He is Siva, He is Hari (Vishnu), He is Indra, He is the Immortal, the Supreme Lord of all. Sah Brahma Sah Shiva Sah Hari Sendra Sokshara Parama Swaraat So, please do not claim that Visnu alone is Param Brahman and Shiva is Jiva. Now compare these with some other Upanishads, which clarify further. Mahopanishad, included in the Sama-Veda I-1-4. Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy. From the (desire of) the Paramatman, the Yajnastoma (hymn known as Avyakta) is said to have arisen. I-7. Again, Narayana, desiring something else, thought. From his forehead a person arose with three eyes and a trident, having glory, fame, truth, celibacy, austerity, detachment, mind, lordship, seven Vyahritis (Bhur etc.,) along with Pranava, Rik and other Vedas, all metres is his body – so, he is the great Lord. Iv-83-87. Be devoted to Samvid, with single attention, giving up the non-spiritual attitude and unaffected by the condition of the world. In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than chit. He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle. Mahanarayanopanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.] XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without. XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which is representative of soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all: ---- ---- Parama Lingaya Namah XXI-1: May the Supreme who is the ruler of all knowledge, controller of all created beings, the preserver of the Vedas and the one overlord of Hiranyagarbha, be benign to me. I am the Sadasiva described thus and denoted by Pranava. XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste and possessing uncommon eyes. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe. XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures. The material universe the created beings and whatever there is manifoldly and profusely created in the past and in the present in the form of the world, all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. All that I have cited above is perfectly supported by Bhagavatam. Bhagavatam 23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. 24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. 31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. I quote from a few other Upanishads to show that Shiva is this Supreme reality -- the truth immortal. Sukarahasyopanishad belonging to the Krishna-Yajur-Veda. (Lord Shiva – Vamadeva teaches Suka). 20. Om, for this mantra, Hamsa is the Rishi, unmanifest Gayatri is the metre, deity is Paramahamsa, -------- ‘One and non-dual is Brahman. -------. ‘Eternal bliss is Brahman’ – Svaha to the head – Vasat to the braid of hair. ‘That which is plenitude’ – Hum to armour – Vausat to the three eyes. ‘One and non-dual Brahman’ – Phat to the missile. The earth, old region, heaven, Om, this is the link of space. Note: Vausat to the three eyes. ‘One and non-dual Brahman’, which is referred as That. 25-26. Of the chant of ‘Tvam’ Vishnu is the seer, Gayatri is the metre, supreme self the deity, ‘aim’ the seed, ‘klim’ the power, ‘sauh’ the pin, application is to the repetition for my liberation. Note: Vishnu is seer and supreme self the deity. So, Vishnu is the seer of the Supreme Self. 27. For ‘Asi’, the seer is Manah, metre Gayatri, deity Ardhanarishvara, seed is Avyaktadi, power is Nrisimha, pin is supreme Self. Application is repetition for identification of Jiva and Brahman. Note: Asi is Manas 30-38. Now according to the classification of the mystic teachings are set forth the verses on the purport. Prajnana is that whereby one sees, hears, smells and makes clear all objects here, pleasant and unpleasant, by which one knows. In the four-faced Brahman, Indra and Devas, men, horses, cows, etc., spirit is one Brahman – so, in me too Prajnana is Brahman. In this body being remains witness to the intellect and is called I. The Being full in itself is described as Brahman, referred to with Asmi. So, I am Brahman. The being, one without a second, without name and form before creation and even now is called That. Note: Lord Parjanya is that whereby one sees hears smells etc.. Compare this with Narayana. XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without (Maha Naryana Up.). Lord Parjanya in Rig Veda Book 7 HYMN CI. Parjanya. 1 SPEAK forth three words, the words which light preceded, which milk this udder that produceth nectar. Quickly made manifest, the Bull hath bellowed, engendering the germ of plants, the Infant. ------ 4 In him all living creatures have their being, and the three heavens with triply flowing waters. Three reservoirs that sprinkle down their treasure shed their sweet streams around him with a murmur. --------- 6 He is the Bull of all, and their impregner lie holds the life of all things fixed and moving. May this rite save me till my hundredth autumn. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings. And Rudra-Bhava-Lord Shiva is Lord Parjanya Shri Rudram 1.9 namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe | atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH || May my salutations be to the blue-throated (Rudra), He who has a thousand eyes and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas. Namo middhushta maya ceshumate cha Salutations to Him who showers blessings and who bears arrows. jAbAlyupanishhad of the sAma veda: sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH | The all-knowing Ishvara, the lord of all, and endowed with the (power of performing) the five kinds of actions is called pashupatiH (the lord of the jIvas or pashus). Svet. Up. IV. 18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' Mandyuka Up. 12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Sivam and the advaitam. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self. JABALOPANISHAD BELONGING TO THE SUKLA-YAJUR-VEDA II-1. Thereafter the sage Atri (son of the creator Brahma) asked of Yajnavalkya: ‘How am I to realize the Self which is infinite and unmanifest ?’ (To this) Yajnavalkya replied: That Avimukta Lord Siva as the redeemer is to be worshipped; the Self which is infinite and unmanifest, is established in the Avimukta Ishvara, possessed of attributes. III-1. Then the discipline students (Brahmacharins of Yajnavalkya) asked him: ‘Pray, tell us, what is that mantra by reciting which one attains immortality ?’ He replied: ‘By (reciting) Satarudriya’. These mantras are indeed the names of (Rudra to achieve) immortality. By (reciting) these (mantras) one becomes immortal. Note: Narayana or Lord Parjanya Or Self or Consciousness is unmanifest but is established in Avemukta Ishvara, Lord Shiva. Is there any scope of doubt? Kaivalyopanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda. 7. Meditating on the highest Lord, allied to Uma, powerful, three-eyed, blue-necked, and tranquil, the holy man reaches Him who is the source of all, the witness of all and is beyond darkness (i.e. Avidya). 9. He alone is all that was, and all that will be, the Eternal; knowing Him, one transcends death; there is no other way to freedom. 23-24. For me there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor air, nor ether. Thus realising the Paramatman, who lies in the cavity of the heart, who is without parts, and without a second, the Witness of all, beyond both existence and non-existence – one attains the Pure Paramatman Itself. 25. He who studies the Shatarudriya, is purified as by the Fires, is purified from the sin of drinking, purified from the sin of killing a Brahmana, from deeds done knowingly or unawares. Through this he has his refuge in Shiva, the Supreme Self. One who belongs to the highest order of life should repeat this always or once (a day). Maitreyopanishad, included in the Sama-Veda III-12. I am of the form which fills everything, possessing the characteristics of Existence, Consciousness and Bliss. I am of the form of all holy places, I am the supreme Atman, I am Shiva. III-13. I am devoid of aim and non-aim and I am the bliss 9rasa0 which has no extinction. I am beyond measurer and measure and the thing measured; I am Shiva. III-14. I am not the world, I witness all and I am devoid of eyes, etc., I am immense, I am awake, I am serene and I am Hara (Shiva). Svetasvataropanishad, included in the Krishna-Yajur-Veda 2.16 He indeed, the Lord, who pervades all regions, was the first to be born and it is He who dwells in the womb of the universe. It is He, again, who is born as a child and He will be born in the future, He stands behind all persons and His face is everywhere. 2.17 The Self—luminous Lord, who is fire, who is in water, who has entered into the whole world, who is in plants, who is in trees—to that Lord let there be adoration! Yea, let there be adoration! 3.1 The non—dual Ensnarer rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal. 3.2 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time. 3.3 His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester. 4 He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect! 3.13 The Purusha, no bigger than a thumb, is the inner Self, ever seated in the heart of man. He is known by the mind, which controls knowledge and is perceived in the heart. They who know Him become immortal. Note: The Purusha and Rudra are not different beings. Are they? 4.12 He, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers, the Support of the universe, Rudra the omniscient, who at the beginning gave birth to Hiranyagarbha—may He endow us with clear intellect! 4.18 When ignorance is dispelled, there is neither day nor night, neither being nor non-being. There is only that Auspicious One who is imperishable (akshara), and who is worthy of being adored by the creator. From Him has proceeded the ancient wisdom. 21 It is because Thou, O Lord, art birthless, that some rare souls, frightened by birth and death, take refuge in Thee. O Rudra, may Thy benign face protect me for ever! Note: And Saranatha says that Rudra takes birth. ***** I said that Rudra is anapahatapapma and I had quoted from Shatapatha Brahmana the verses and u never tried to reinterpret trhem to prove otherwise but just gave other verses for that purpose. by this ur efforts result in the demolishing of Sarva Vedanta Pratyaya Nyaya by which there should be no contradictions in Vedas. *********** Your translations and your understanding of the translations are deficient since your mind is bound to certain forms. And please apply the rule: there should be no contradictions in Vedas. Reconcile with above cited verses and the followings. YV i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. YV vi. 5. 6. ---------- The gods kept Rudra away from the sacrifice [2], he followed the Adityas; they took refuge in (the creatures for two deities ----- Svet. Up. 3.2 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. The truth is one undivided conscious Atma and that Atma is all – one without a second. That goes by various names in its own consciousness due to its own play with its own Devi (who is not different from the Atma). Rig Veda 10.191.3 sa vishnu sa shiva sa rudra so'kshara sah You consider that as Vishnu and I consider that as one without a second who is Sivam and Achyutam and who is called by many names. But that is pure consciousness. The “I” in me. Let us not degrade each others ishta devas. Please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
