Guest guest Report post Posted April 22, 2005 Narayana Upanishad(1)says “The Purusha, Narayana, desired to create living beings. And out of such desire (or vow), the living force of breath called “praana” stems out from the Supreme Being; the mind (manas) and all other sense organs come into being. Out of Narayana arises the Brahma, the deity who is the creator of all beings; and also the Indra, who is the ruler of all Devas. Out of Him comes Prajaapati, the deity who originates and controls the people, as well as the twelve Aadityaas, eleven Rudraas and eight Vasus." Narayana Upanishad(2) "Narayana is eternal.Brahma is Narayana. Shiva is Narayana. Indra(Sakra) is Narayana ....." Maha Upanishad(1) states thus Narayana, verily, was alone, there was no Brahma, no Isana(Lord Shiva), no water, no Agni and Soma, no heaven and no earth here, no stars, no Sun, but only he, the Nara (Purusa) alone One can see that Narayana was the person who was at the beginning. He is also exalted as 'Purusha' in these Upanishads. Thus, it is clear that the Parama Purusha of Purusha Sukta is none but Narayana. also it is stated that Brahma,Shiva,Indra are Narayana. it is also said that Narayana created Brahma,Indra etc. therefore,it is even more clear that Narayana on creating the demigods, made them powerful, by giving them powers residing as the Antaryami in them. It can be known from the following verse that Rudra got powers by worshipping Visnu. 7:40:5 asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat Meaning: I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya). On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strenth(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothres have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food. It can be understood from the above that Narayana is the Supreme and the names of the Devatas can be taken as His names for He is everything. especially in certain situations the names of anya devatas actually mean Narayana. For example, in Bhoo Suktam (one of the pancha suktas), the following lines occur - "Indra patnim vyapini.............. Vishnu patnim mahim devim madhavim madhava priyam Lakshmim priya sakim devim namami achyuta vallabham" It can be seen that in the first place, Bhoomi is referred to as the wife of Indra(Indra patnim) while the words 'Vishnu patnim', 'madhava priyam' & 'achyuta vallbham' refer to her as the consort of Visnu. Sayana has translated the word 'Indra Patnim' as wife of Visnu, saying that the word 'Indra' in that place refers to the Supreme Lord,Narayana. ---------- Svet. Up. Chapter III 1The non—dual Ensnarer rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal. 2Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time. 3His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester. --------- Taking cue from the above mentioned translation made by Sayana, In the above verses of Sve. Upanishad, the word ‘Rudra’ refers not to Umapati Rudra but to the Supreme Purusha, Narayana, who is the antaryami of Rudra Deva(Umapati). If u shaivites still persist that the Parama Purusha of Purusha Sukta is Rudra Deva then read this. In the Narayana Anuvaka, which begins with the words "Adhbhyas sambootha...." and which is chanted along with Purusha Sukta comes the words "vedahamedham purusham mahantam aditya varnam tamasa parastat" a near very repeat of a verse in Purusha Sukta.in this Anuvaka, towards the end are the words "hreeshchate lakshmishcha patnyou" which means Hree(Bhoomi) and Lakshmi are your wives. Thus it is clear that the Parama Purusha is none but Narayana. Narayanath param nasti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 27, 2005 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, This clearly says that Narayana and Rudra are one. ************** Maha Upanishad(1) states thus Narayana, verily, was alone, there was no Brahma, no Isana(Lord Shiva), no water, no Agni and Soma, no heaven and no earth here, no stars, no Sun, but only he, the Nara (Purusa) alone *********** You have inserted Lord Siva yourself against Isana. But it is OK. Lord Siva as manifested one is the Isana -- The Lord (controller). Surprisingly you agree that Isana is Lord. You have not repreoduced the second and third verses. So, I will do it. -5-6. In it arose fourteen Purushas (Brahman, Vishnu, Mahesh, Isana, Sadashiva and nine Prajapatis like Daksha), one maiden (Mula-Prakriti), the ten organs (five of perception and five of action), Mind as the eleventh, bright intellect as the 12th, ego as the 13th, Prana as 14th, Atma as 15th, Buddhi, Kama, Karma and Tamas, five Tanmatras, along with gross elements and the Being was the 25th (Sutratman). Employing him in creation, the supreme Being remained detached. From him do all things come into being. I-7. Again, Narayana, desiring something else, thought. From his forehead a person arose with three eyes and a trident, having glory, fame, truth, celibacy, austerity, detachment, mind, lordship, seven Vyahritis (Bhur etc.,) along with Pranava, Rik and other Vedas, all metres is his body – so, he is the great Lord. So, Lord Visnu also takes birth from Narayana. By the way do you think that Brahman, Param Atma, Self, consciousness are different entitieties? If so, then you are greatly mistaken. And Trident bearing Lord is one full manifestation of Narayana. Different Upanishads (and often same Upanishad) use these terms interchangeably. Otherwise there would be a Narayana -- second to none, another Self -- second to none, and Concsiousmness -- second to none. And the manifested Narayana is: Bhagavatam 23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. 24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. 31. O Lord Girisa, since the Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. That is it. Do not claim Girisha is not Narayana. If you wish you may read Maha Narayana Up. also. Maha Narayana Upanishad I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) and therefore superior and elevated like a peak and affording protection. The Jiva who is his abode grows to be infinite. He is the Lord who delights the individual souls by guiding according to their deeds and conferring on them fruits of their actions. II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme who manifests Himself manifoldly, who is the Power residing in actions and their fruits rendering them efficacious (or the Power that is supplicated to by the devotees for the fruition of their work). O Thou Goddess skilled in saving. Thou takest us across difficulties excellently well. Our salutations to Thee. XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.] XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without. XIV-1: Verily Aditya is He; This orb of His gives light and heat; The well-known Rik verses are there; Therefore the orb is the collection of Riks; He is the abode of the Rik verses. Now this flame which is shining in the orb of the sun is the collection of Saman chants; That is the abode of Saman chants. Now He who is the Person in the flame within the orb of the sun (is to be meditated as) the collection of Yajus; that part of the orb is the collection of Yajus; That is the abode of Yajus. Thus by these three the threefold knowledge alone shines. He who is within the sun is the Golden Person. XVI-1: [by these twenty-two names ending with salutations they consecrate the Sivalinga for all] – the Linga which are representative of Soma and Surya, and holding which in the hand holy formulas are repeated and which purifies all: Nidhanapataye Namah ! Nidhanapataantikaya Namah ! Urdhvaya Namah ! Urdhva Lingaya Namah ! Hiranyaya Namah ! Hiranya Lingaya Namah ! Suvarnaya Namah ! Suvarna Lingaya Namah ! Divyaya Namah ! Divya Lingaya Namah ! Bhavaya Namah ! Bhava Lingaya Namah ! Sarvaya Namah ! Sarva Lingaya Namah ! Shivaya Namah ! Shiva Lingaya Namah ! Jvalaya Namah ! Jvala Lingaya Namah ! Atmaya Namah ! AtmaLingaya Namah ! Paramaya Namah ! Parama Lingaya Namah ! ------------------ XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste and possessing uncommon eyes. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe. XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death. Note: Do you see that Siva Linga is indicatory of Narayana and Rudra (from whom the Vak issues) is that and Vishnu (manifest Viswa) is that? When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.) Vrikshasyamula Sekena Shakhahpusyanti Vaiyatha Shive Rudre Japatpreteprita Yevasya Devatah (SUTA SAMHITA) Om Namah Sivayya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 28, 2005 Rudra is not an avatar of Narayana. Rudra’s birth is karmavash(because of Karma) but that of Narayana is not so for He is not binded by Karma(as Krishna Himself clarifies in Gita). Following are vakyas from Shatapatha Brahmana, Bhootanam ca Prajapatis samvatsaraya dikshitah | Bhootanam pathir gruhapathir aaseet | Usha Patni | …………….. bhootanam pathis samvatsara ushasi rodho(a)sinchat | Samvatsare kumaro jayatha | sorodheeth | tam prajapathirabraveet | kumara kim rodhishi | yachhramath tapasodhi jathoseethi | so(a)braveet anapahatapapma vaa ahamanahithanama | nama me dehi paapno(a)pahatya iti | tam punah prajapathi braveet | rudro(a)seethi | ……….. rudropavachcharva isanah pathir bhima ugra iti sapta namani | "The pati of bhoota and praja, Brahma deva, underwent diksha for one year. He was a Grihasta. His wife was Usha. …….. Brahma deva let his veerya ( ‘rodho(a)sinchat’) to Usha. In a year, a son was born. The son cried. Brahma asked him, “ Son! Why are u crying. I got u as child after tough tapasya. The son said, “ I am not cleansed of sins. To wipe out my sins give me names. Brahma again told him, “ Let your name be Rudra.” …….. Rudra, charva, isana, pathi(pasupathi), bhima, ugra – these seven names (were given by Brahma deva)" From the above it is clear that Rudra has a normal birth from a woman’s womb and his birth is ‘Karmavash’. Because he says, “I am not cleansed of my sins” – which means that he is not a person whose birth is determined by himself but by his karma as he was afraid of his sins and wanted to wipe them out. this again means that when he took birth, he was bound by Karma (known from ‘sins’). Hence Rudra is a normal Jivatma and He cannot be the Parama Purusha of Purusha Sukta nor can he be an avatar of Narayana as his birth is determined by karma while the avatar of Narayana is determined by Himself. The Narayana Anuvaka of Purusha Sukta in Taittreya says, “ajaayamano bahudha vijayathe” “He is birthless. He takes birth many times.” His birth is not like that of normal Jivatmas. He is not taking birth due to karma or any other external compulsion. He takes birth many times out of His own will. Vishnu is an avatar of Narayana and hence there is no problem about it. Vishnu Gayathri clarifies it, "narayanaya vidmahe vasudevaya dheemahi thanno vishnuh prajodayat" the very word Naraya'na' is special for the final 'na' makes it applicable only for Narayana(Vishnu). while rudra or any other name of a devadoes not have that property. the final 'na' does not allow the word to be used as an attribute name applicable to anyone. this 'na' makes it a rudi according to sanskrit grammar. so if one considers rudra deva as paramatma then one has to reinterpret the line ".... atma narayana para" which cannot be done because of the 'na'kara. but rudra or names like prajapati can be re-interpreted and there is no sanction against it in sanskrit grammar. moreover in Visnu Sahasranama, "Rudro bahusiro ......" , "sarva sharva shiva sthanu ......" & "svayambhu shambhur aditya......" occur and these have been accepted as names of Narayana(Vishnu) by Adi Sankara also who has written a commentary on Visnu sahasranama. thus the truth is crystal clear: "narayanat param nasti" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 28, 2005 already it has been proved that Narayana cannot be used to denote any other devata. Rg veda 8-7-1 says, "from whom this Ugra was born, that person(Brahma Deva) remained Jyestha in the world. on taking birth(Ugra)killed his enemies" already in the previous post it has been shown that Ugra is a name of Rudra. It is also said "Narayanat Rudro jayathe" (narayana upanishad) - "from Narayana arose Rudra" - how can someone have two births at the sametime - created by Brahmadeva as well as Narayana. It can be easily explained - Narayana is the Antaryami of everyone and so even the actions of oher can be taken as His. It is well known that Indra is the son of Kasyapa but still the same upanishad says " Narayanat Indro Jayathe" these prove the Supremacy of Narayana by referring to his Sarvaantaryami guna. Vamana Purana states : "na tu narayanadheenam naamnaamyatra sambhava| anyanaamnaam gathir vishnureka eva prakirthitha|| ruthe Narayanadheeni naamani purushottama| praadhaadhanyatra bhagavan........." "the names like Narayana will not refer to other devatas. the names of other names also refer to Visnu.other than names like Narayana, he gives other names to the other devatas." in the mahanarayana upanishad, u have urself given the vkyas that point out Narayana paratva. --------------------- XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.] XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without. ------------- also occur in this upanishad the following mantras "narayanat hiranyagarbho jayathe| narayanadh anda viratswaroopo jayathe|...........na samanaadhika ithyasamshayam paramartho evam veda sakala bhandhamchhitva mrityum theethva sa mukto bhavati sa mukto bhavati|" (na samanaadhika.... mukto bhavati) means no one is equal or greater than Narayana - who knows this without any doubt, he attains moksha. but the mantra also says "brahma narayana|shivascha narayana|shakrashcha narayana|dhishascha narayana|......" as it has said that no one is equal to or greater than Narayana it can be understood that these devatas who are jivas cannot be equal to Narayana. by saying that all these are Narayana the upanishad tries to bring out the Sarvaantaryami tatva. in the same upanishad brahma in his stuti sbout Narayana says "tvameva sadasadatkama"- u are of the atma(antaryami) of all sat and asat. (comes in the mantras - atha parama tatva rahasyam jigyasu parameshti .......... iti sunishchita) this sets everything to rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 29, 2005 Hi Saranathan, I am a Hare Krishna follower and vaishnava.Shiva is not a jiva as said by you.He is one of the Mahajanas and you degraded him by saying that brahman gave his semen and produced Shiva.Such a blasphemy against the greatest Guru of Rudra Vaishnava Sampradaya - Shiva is not at all good for a Vaishnava. Shiva tattva is greater than Jiva tattva.Only Brahma is a jiva and every brahma cycle,one jiva gets that post of Brahma.But Shiva is a Personality and as such no jiva can claim that postion unlike Indra and Brahma positions. Dont go on and comment on Shiva lest you are committing Vaishnava Aparadha. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 30, 2005 well I have went by the Vedas and I cannot change the meaning of the Matras that I have quoted from Shatapatha Brahmana. Also the following mantra occurs in Chandogya Upanishad, "virupakshaya brahmanah putraya jyeshtaya sreshtaya" I don't degrade Rudra for I will not commit Bhagavata apachara hich is condemned by our Acharya Ramanuja. But the fact that Rudra is a jiva has been proved with the authority of Sruti vakyas and there is nothing wrong in it. After all u and me were born in the same way too and so were our Acharyas. this does not degrade u or me or our Acharyas and will not degrade Shiva too. Many things that u follow in ISKCON are authorised by certain Puranas or your Acharyas but are not to be found in the Sruti Pramanas(vedas). eg. the superiority of Radha over Lakshmi while the very name Radha does not occur in the Vedas. so it will be better if u abide by your system and at the same time try to understand the importance of Vedas and accept their authority.u have to accept that Rudra is a jiva as Sruti says so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 30, 2005 "Many things that u follow in ISKCON are authorised by certain Puranas or your Acharyas but are not to be found in the Sruti Pramanas(vedas)." being puranas written by the same writer of vedas and inspired by the same supreme lord, there's no reason to consider them inferior so if puranas complete vedas explaining with precision that shiva is not jiva tattva but rudra tattva we have to accept it (instead of refusing my present gaudya acharya, thing that would bring me immediately to hell, i am more happy in believing that devotion is in eternal expansion and for example chaitanya mahaprabhu wants to say a little more details than madhvacharya.. and this will go on eternally in this way) (iskcon siddhanta is not something born in 1965.. gaudya vaishanvism is in india from 1496) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2005 YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu Some one else is actually the bolt of Indra and the vast stride of Vishnu. ************* Maha Narayana Upanishad XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.] XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without. *************** Yes. No doubt. Scripture is clear. For your information Narayana means the abode of Nara – that is consciousness. Narayana is Self. Narayana is Brahman. Narayana is Consciousness. But above Upanishad also says: XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. Why do you not take cognizance of the above two verses? And Vishnu himself has his origin in Narayana (this you would wish to ignore). Maha Up. -5-6. In it arose fourteen Purushas (Brahman, Vishnu, Mahesh, Isana, Sadashiva and nine Prajapatis like Daksha), one maiden (Mula-Prakriti), the ten organs (five of perception and five of action), Mind as the eleventh, bright intellect as the 12th, ego as the 13th, Prana as 14th, Atma as 15th, Buddhi, Kama, Karma and Tamas, five Tanmatras, along with gross elements and the Being was the 25th (Sutratman). Your interpretation that no other deity but Visnu alone is suitable to be called Narayana does not fit with Vedas as below. YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu Some one else is actually the bolt of Indra and the vast stride of Vishnu. But the trident bearing Lord is the ONE true manifestation of the unmanifest Narayana. Please check the phrase ‘having glory, fame, truth, -------‘. Maha Up. I-7. Again, Narayana, desiring something else, thought. From his forehead a person arose with three eyes and a trident, having glory, fame, truth, celibacy, austerity, detachment, mind, lordship, seven Vyahritis (Bhur etc.,) along with Pranava, Rik and other Vedas, all metres is his body – so, he is the great Lord. Maha Narayana Upanishad I-70: ------- He dwells together with Uma (His power giving spiritual illumination) in the hearts of devotees which are holier than other parts of their body (the seat of the Divine) and therefore superior and elevated like a peak and affording protection. The Jiva who is his abode grows to be infinite. He is the Lord who delights the individual souls by guiding according to their deeds and conferring on them fruits of their actions. II-2: I take refuge in Her, the Goddess Durga, who is fiery in lustre and radiant with ardency, who is the Power belonging to the Supreme who manifests Himself manifoldly, who is the Power residing in actions and their fruits rendering them efficacious (or the Power that is supplicated to by the devotees for the fruition of their work). O Thou Goddess skilled in saving. Thou takest us across difficulties excellently well. Our salutations to Thee. XXIII-1: Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Reality, has become an androgynous Person in the form of Umamaheshvara, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste and possessing uncommon eyes. Salutations to Him alone who is the Soul of the universe or whose form is the universe. XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death. Svet. Up. Chapter III 1The non—dual Ensnarer rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal. 2Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time. 3His eyes are everywhere, His faces everywhere, His arms everywhere, everywhere His feet. He it is who endows men with arms, birds with feet and wings and men likewise with feet. Having produced heaven and earth, He remains as their non—dual manifester. Is it not funny? When Shruti says: “Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, ---------” You say no it is not Rudra. Funny indeed. You cite stories to show that Rudra is Jiva. That is OK. Shata Rudriya makes it clear that Lord is all. The Param Atma and the Jiva. Vedas hail Rudra as the sparkling hearts of the gods. And you say He is Jiva; funny blasphemy. Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9. a ----------. p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods You hater of religion. How can a self dependent God of Rig Veda be a Jiva? If He is not all? RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call. This is what Bhagavatam says. 23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. 24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. 25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m. 26. O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuna, master of the waters, is your tongue. 27. O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head. 28. O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Gayatri are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart. 29. O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, Lord Siva, you are self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma. 30. O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance. 31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. 32. When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daksa-yajna, Tripurasura and the kalakuta poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. 33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. 34. Even personalities like Lord Brahma and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. 35. O greatest of all rulers, your actual identity is impossible for us to understand. As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. Beyond this, no one can appreciate your activities. We can see this much, and nothing more. End of citation shvetAshvatara upaniShad eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | Rudra is indeed one, who rules these worlds by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 1, 2005 Namaskar You have opened a hornet’s nest. Rajasekhar Ji in a post had said that Gods were created in man’s imagination. And many bhaktas called him names. He was correct insofar as the Maha Upanishad, which clearly states that Self (consciousness) of man is the Lord. The only flaw is that till one is not immersed permanently in the non-dual Self, all gods remain – to grant wishes and to punish also. ***********Maha Upanishad(1) states thus Narayana, verily, was alone, there was no Brahma, no Isana, no water, no Agni and Soma, no heaven and no earth here, no stars, no Sun, but only he, the Nara (Purusa) alone ************** Who is Nara? Read Br. Up. I-iv-6: --------- This is super-creation of Viraj that he projected the gods, who are even superior to him. Because he, although mortal himself, projected the immortals, therefore this is a super-creation. He who knows this as such becomes (a creator) in this super-creation of Viraj. So, the mortal man creates the immortal Gods. Who is Purusha? Br. Up. FOURTH BRAHMANA. 1. In the beginning this was Self alone, in the shape of purusha. ------- And because before (purva) all this, he (the Self) burnt down (ush) all evils, therefore he was a person (pur-usha). Note: Who has burnt down all evils? Who destroys the evils? Maha Up. -5-6. In it (Narayana) arose fourteen Purushas (Brahman, Vishnu, Mahesh, Isana, Sadashiva and nine Prajapatis like Daksha), one maiden (Mula-Prakriti), the ten organs (five of perception and five of action), Mind as the eleventh, bright intellect as the 12th, ego as the 13th, Prana as 14th, Atma as 15th, Buddhi, Kama, Karma and Tamas, five Tanmatras, along with gross elements and the Being was the 25th (Sutratman). End of citation Consciousness of Nara (man) was (and is) the only reality. All else is creation of this consciousness. In consciousness He has created all Gods. Either you believe this. Or you believe that the Lord Mahesvara, (who is described as Truth in the following passage) is the sanatanah truth. Maha Up. I-7. Again, Narayana, desiring something else, thought. From his forehead a person arose with three eyes and a trident, having glory, fame, truth, celibacy, austerity, detachment, mind, lordship, seven Vyahritis (Bhur etc.,) along with Pranava, Rik and other Vedas, all metres is his body –, he is the Mahesvara. What you believe is up to you alone. You may also read more of Maha Up. III-49-54. -------; Brahma is reduced (to nothing), the unborn Vishnu too; Shiva becomes non-existent, the lords of the quarters decay. Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra and all classes of creatures run towards destruction, like water-streams towards the marine fire. Iv-83-87. Be devoted to Samvid, with single attention, giving up the non-spiritual attitude and unaffected by the condition of the world. In a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness. He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle. VI-61. ‘that Brahman has been (identified with) emptiness, Prakriti, Maya and also consciousness. It is also called "Shivam, pure Spirit, the Lord, the eternal and the self". End of citation. What is meant that all forms that we associate with Gods are reduced to non-existence. But the Shiva tattwa alone remains. This is Shivam. The Lord of the Turiyatta of Mandyuka Up. 12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Siva and the advaitam. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self. This is what the knowers of Brahman teach. Shivam is a name of the pure spirit, also called Self, Consciousness, Narayana, etc., but formless. Only indicated by a linga (containing trinity and Vac). In Rig Veda, the Self (the abode or Narayana) is Parjanya. Book 7 HYMN CI. Parjanya. 1 SPEAK forth three words, the words which light preceded, which milk this udder that produceth nectar. Quickly made manifest, the Bull hath bellowed, engendering the germ of plants, the Infant. ------ 4 In him all living creatures have their being, and the three heavens with triply flowing waters. Three reservoirs that sprinkle down their treasure shed their sweet streams around him with a murmur. --------- 6 He is the Bull of all, and their impregner lie holds the life of all things fixed and moving. May this rite save me till my hundredth autumn. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings. And in Br. Up. Also: VI-ii-9: That word (heaven), O Gautama, is fire, the sun is its fuel, the rays its smoke, the day its flame, the four quarters its cinder, and the intermediate quarters its sparks. In this fire the gods offer faith (liquid oblations in subtle form). Out of that offering King Moon is born (a body is made in the moon for the sacrificer). VI-ii-10: Parjanya (the god of the rain), O Gautama, is fire, the year is its fuel, the clouds its smoke, lightning its flame, thunder its cinder, and the rumblings its sparks. In this fire the gods offer King Moon. Out of that offering rain is produced. VI-ii-11: This world, O Gautama, is fire, the earth is its fuel, fire its smoke, the night its flame, the moon its cinder, and stars its sparks. In this fire the gods offer rain. Out of that offering food is produced. VI-ii-12: Man, O Gautama, is fire, the open mouth is its fuel, the vital force its smoke, speech its flame, the eye its cinder, and the ear its sparks. In this fire the gods offer food. Out of that offering the seed is produced. VI-ii-13: Woman, O Gautama, is fire. In this fire the gods offer the seed. Out of that offering a man is born. He lives as long as he is destined to live. Then, when he dies -- And in Vedas Rudra is all, including Parjanya. From Yajur Veda namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe | atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 9) He (Rudra) who is blue-throated, is the thousand-eyed One (Indra). He (Rudra) is the showerer (mIDushhe -- Parjanya). May (my) salutations be to Rudra. Also, I bow to all those beings who are this Rudra's servants (or followers). End of citation. So whatever you prefer to call the Self, the Vedas gave him the name Rudra, since it has all meaning included within. Maha Up. He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.). And Rudra is Jiva also. There is no problem about it. When Jiva burns down all evils He becomes Purusha (the Self). Before making unreligious comments opposed to Vedas, keep the following in mind. YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu Om Namah Bhagavate Vasudevayya Namah Om Namah Sivayya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 Om Namah Sivayya, Where can i get all the books you used as referene here ? I want to understand about me, and this information is really intriguing, I want to understand why we are here. Thank You Sir. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 Brahma is a jiva.It means you or me anybody by doing tapas can aspire for Brahma's position. But Shiva is a personality of destruction.He drank poison,he holds off the force of ganges etc.But can Brahma an ordinary jiva do all these? Ramanuja never said anything about Shiva.It is the egoism of esp Thenkalai iyengars to be extremely fanatic to even neglect Seeriya Thiruvadi Hanuman and even at times giving less importance to Ramavatara. First dont think of yourself high.We have all cheap impulses but not Shiva.Thats why he burnt Sex into ashes. Can we do that? We are not eligible to speak about them. Ramanuja is an Acharya,he is not a Mahajana.But Shiva is a Mahajana. Atleast forget shiva and be devoted to Vishnu,but never mis judge improperly like this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 why do you become emotional? from your post it is very well understood that you are ignorant of Sri Vaishnavism and Vedas. I'm a Vadakalai Iyengar for ur kind knowledge. I have given you the pramanas. Suka deva was also a jiva but he overcame all the dirty impulses and similar is the case of Shiva. Try to prove that Shiva is not a jiva by quoting from Vedas and proving that I'm wrong rather than shouting without any apt proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 God is one! so is the trimurti -Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh. Which is the eternal truth, then why are you guys going on justfying each one of them and trying to put one above the other......The Gods themselves would be laughing at all these silliness....when will you guys learn, don't rote like a parrot, try to understand the truth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 God is one! so is the trimurti -Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh. Which is the eternal truth, then why are you guys going on justfying each one of them and trying to put one above the other......The Gods themselves would be laughing at all these silliness....when will you guys learn, don't rote like a parrot of what is written in scriptures....read it carefully and use your intelligence and try to understand the real truth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu Some one else is actually the bolt of Indra and the vast stride of Vishnu. ------------------------------- this mantra showers praises on the yajamana of rajasuya yagna. by praising him to be stepping of Vishnu,bolt of Indra etc. it praises him to be as powerful as them. it does not refer to any deity.so don't try to mislead everyone. --------------------------- For your information Narayana means the abode of Nara – that is consciousness. Narayana is Self. Narayana is Brahman. Narayana is Consciousness. ---------------------------- you have shown that you are ignorant of sanskrit grammar which is very essential tointerpret the Vedas. I have already shown you that Naraya'na' cannot be interpreted based on its meaning because the 'na' in the end does not allow it to be done so. had the final 'na' been the same as the first 'Na' of Narayana then your argument will be right. if u have even a slight knowledge of Devanagari you will know that the 'Na' and 'na' are different letters in 'Na'raya'na' which makes it to have a very firm rudi with the Supreme Person -Narayana.It cannot be interpreted in any other way. so first learn Sanskrit grammar. - XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. ---------- I have already shown u that the name 'Rudra' is not a monopoly like Narayana. infact 'Rudra' was the name givenn to the deva by Brahma as per Shatapatha Brahmana. also 'Rudra' has been accepted as one among the names of Visnu by Sankara,Madhva as well as the Ramanuja schools as all of them have commentaries on the Visnu Sahasranama in which they accept the names 'Rudra', 'Shiva','Shambhu' etc by giving commentaries on them. if u accept Rudra paratva in these lines then u will have to reinterpret lines like 'Narayana param brahmah' 'atma narayana parah' etc which cannot be done due to the special characteristic of the name 'Narayana'. so in these lines the word 'Rudra' should be taken to mean 'Narayana' as only then the Vedas can be explained without any contradictions. i have already explained this to you in the previous posts which you safely omit and keep on arguing without any knowledge of the nuances of Sanskrit and Vedas. -- Why do you not take cognizance of the above two verses? And Vishnu himself has his origin in Narayana (this you would wish to ignore). ---- who ignored the fact that Visnu had his origin in Narayana. after all Visnu is the first among the avatars of Narayana. the Purusha Samhita of Mudhgalopanishad in Rig Veda gives the meaning of the fourth mantra of Purusha Sukta as follows: 'tripadhityanaya proktam aniruddhasya vaibhavam' 'in the mantra " tripadhur...." the vaibhava of Aniruddha is told' thus the line 'tripadhurtva udait purushah padhosyeha bhavat punah' means 'one of the three forms of parama purusha took a form(avatar) again ' wherein the the avatar is Aniruddha who is one of the three forms of Narayana(Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Sankarshana) as told in Pancharatra agama's Ahirputnya Samhita.It also states that Aniruddha took avatar as Visnu to be one among the trinity. this Visnu resides in the Milk ocean. also the Visnu gayathri states that Narayana and Vishnu are the same and if you consider them to be different entities then you go against the vedas. -------------------------------- But the trident bearing Lord is the ONE true manifestation of the unmanifest Narayana. Please check the phrase ‘having glory, fame, truth, -------‘. -------------------------------- if that is so why is that Shatapatha Brahmanah gives rudra a Karamavash birth. Narayana,the supreme Purusha, is beyond Karma. -------------------------- Is it not funny? When Shruti says: “Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, ---------” You say no it is not Rudra. Funny indeed. You cite stories to show that Rudra is Jiva. That is OK. Shata Rudriya makes it clear that Lord is all. The Param Atma and the Jiva. ----- the same shtarudriya also tells that rudra was born out of Brahma's semen. also I've alredy stated that 'Rudra' is not a monopoly of Rudra deva. i have given the reasons which are right grammatically. ------ LXXV-1: Salutations to Rudra, and to Rudra who is Vishnu. Guard me from death. ------ this does not mean that Rudra is Supreme. Infact the Rudra mentioned here is Narayana and Visnu is one of his Avatars as well as His Vibhuti. ---------------------------- You hater of religion. How can a self dependent God of Rig Veda be a Jiva? If He is not all? - till now you have not proved that Rudra is Param Brahma but instead of that you are calling me names. pity on you Shaivites for you don.t have proper arguments and you have not even grammatical knowledge and hence you indulge in these cheap things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 You hater of religion. How can a self dependent God of Rig Veda be a Jiva? If He is not all? ---- is it so? the following is a verse from Rig veda 7:40:5 asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat Meaning: I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya). On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strength(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothers have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food. think thrice before u say a thing for you prove yourself to be ignorant. rest in next post. narayanat param nasti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 *******Om Namah Sivayya, Where can i get all the books you used as referene here ? I want to understand about me, and this information is really intriguing, I want to understand why we are here. Thank You Sir. *********** Thanks to you Sir. We can discuss in some other thread if you wish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 2, 2005 In ONE god there is no scope for comparison. This is full and That is full. Full taken from full remain full. Why? Since This and That are same and infinite. YV ii. 2. 10. Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. ************** But the fact that Rudra is a jiva has been proved with the authority of Sruti vakyas and there is nothing wrong in it. After all u and me were born in the same way too and so were our Acharyas. this does not degrade u or me or our Acharyas and will not degrade Shiva too. **************** What ego and what pride? This pride (which is actually extreme naiveté) will certainly be broken. jAbAlyupanishhad of the sAma veda: (jAbAli says:) pashupatirahaMkArAvishhTaH saMsArI jIvaH | The lord of pashus (Shiva) (acting as if) under the influence of ahaMkAra (ego) is the jIva (individual soul) (revolving) in worldly existence. sa eva pashuH | That (jIva) is himself a "pashu" (literally animal). sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH | The all-knowing Ishvara, the lord of all, and enodowed with the (power of performing) the five kinds of actions is called pashupatiH (the lord of the jIvas or pashus). ke pashava iti punaH sa tamuvAcha || (PaippalAdi) again asked (jAbAli): Who are the pashu's? jIvAH pashava uktAH | tatpatitvAt.h pashupatiH || The jIvas are pashu's. (Shiva) is called pashupati, being the lord of those (pashu's). asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH | utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH | utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH || (shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8) That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.) Sun shines because of Him. He is the person in Sun. And He is no Jiva; You crazy person. pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h | yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10) Note: bhagavo - O Bhagavan O Bhagavan! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand. And some fools say that Rudra is not Bhagawan. *********** YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu Some one else is actually the bolt of Indra and the vast stride of Vishnu. ------------------------------- this mantra showers praises on the yajamana of rajasuya yagna. by praising him to be stepping of Vishnu,bolt of Indra etc. it praises him to be as powerful as them. it does not refer to any deity.so don't try to mislead everyone. *********** Excellent baby. Ha. Ha. Yajamana himself is the steps of Visnu and Bolts of Indra. Yes that’s what I said: Yajamana (who is mortal) is the creator of immortal gods. There is a verse as below. Br. Up. I-iv-6: --------- This is super-creation of Viraj that he projected the gods, who are even superior to him. Because he, although mortal himself, projected the immortals, therefore this is a super-creation. He who knows this as such becomes (a creator) in this super-creation of Viraj. So, the mortal man creates the immortal Gods. But: When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor nonexistence; Shiva (the blessed One) alone is there.' (Svet. Up. IV. 18.) shvetAshvatara upaniShad eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | Rudra is indeed one, who rules these worlds by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity). Maha Upanishad Iv-83-87. ---a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness. He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle. VI-61. ‘that Brahman has been (identified with) emptiness, Prakriti, Maya and also consciousness. It is also called "Shivam, pure Spirit, the Lord, the eternal and the self". RV Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas. 9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard. ------- 11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise. Maha Narayana Upanishad XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.] XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without. ---------- XXIV-1: All this verily is Rudra. To Rudra who is such we offer our salutation. We salute again and again that Being, Rudra, who alone is the light and the Soul of creatures all that is indeed this Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. XXV-1: We sing a hymn that confers on us happiness in the highest degree to Rudra who is worthy of praise, who is endowed with the highest knowledge, who rains objects to the worshippers most excellently, who is more powerful and who is dwelling in the heart. Indeed all this is Rudra. Salutations be to Rudra who is such. Mandyuka Up. 12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the Siva and the advaitam. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self. Bhagavatam 31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. Yajur Veda: iv. 5. 9. a ----------. p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods JABALOPANISHAD BELONGING TO THE SUKLA-YAJUR-VEDA II-1. Thereafter the sage Atri (son of the creator Brahma) asked of Yajnavalkya: ‘How am I to realize the Self which is infinite and unmanifest ?’ (To this) Yajnavalkya replied: That Avimukta Lord Siva as the redeemer is to be worshipped; the Self which is infinite and unmanifest, is established in the Avimukta Ishvara, possessed of attributes. III-1. Then the discipline students (Brahmacharins of Yajnavalkya) asked him: ‘Pray, tell us, what is that mantra by reciting which one attains immortality ?’ He replied: ‘By (reciting) Satarudriya’. These mantras are indeed the names of (Rudra to achieve) immortality. By (reciting) these (mantras) one becomes immortal. End of citations Funny you are. The sparkling soul of Gods is nothing but Jiva? You have succeeded to make yourself an exhibit; who you are trying to fool? To Me the 'ONE' who is Narayana is Siva and is Visnu. I see both. While appearing Visnu and while going back Rudra. He is Sivam. He is Achyutam. He is explained as neti neti. I truly have no more desire to engage in so-called debate with you. Bye Bye. Maha Upanishad Iv-83-87. ---a desert all the water (in mirages) is an illusion – only the desert is real; (similarly) on reflection all the three worlds are nothing more than consciousness. He who remains giving up what is implied and expressed, is Shiva himself, the best of the Brahman-Knowers. That un-decaying being is the substratum (of all), without comparison beyond words and mind, eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent and subtle. Om Namah Sivayya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganeshprasad 0 Report post Posted May 2, 2005 Jai Ganesh Namaskar Atanu For those who are stuck with hierarchy problem can not perceive the truth, it is rather sad for those who wants to see Lord Shiva as jiva. Can you believe a word, for those who claim all names belong to one supreme lord, just to prove their theory? Do they ever call the father by that name? No Re (To Me the 'ONE' who is Narayana is Siva and is Visnu. I see both. While appearing Visnu and while going back Rudra. He is Sivam. He is Achyutam. He is explained as neti neti.) I have always beleived this, you have done a fine job explaining it,this has add strength to my belief. Thank you very much. May Lord Krishna bless you and me and all Jai Shree Krishna Om Namah Sivayya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2005 hey, see how many posts u r getting against what you told.... Krishna says "Rudranam Shankarasmi" in Gita.It means among 11 Rudras,Shankara form has Krishna Anugraham as it follows "Adityanama Aham Vishnu:". Sri Rudram is central part of Yajur veda that prays to Shiva.Can you find a hymn in Veda for Sanath kumaras?No because they are jivas.So dont compare Shiva with Sanath Kumaras. And what about Srimad Bhagavtam portraying Shiva as a personality?You may treat other puranas as low level but this Bhagavatam is greater than vedas as you people glorify Divya Prapandam. You people take what you want to give food to the burning ego inside and say that ISKCON is wrong. Nothing suprising for your own Sri Vaishnavism is in two sects parting your Acharya by 18 philosophical differences. And the work Desika Darshnam is criticized by Tenkalai as against Acharya Bhakthi. With so many court cases on Temple Namam marks,no doubt the burning fanaticsm on you has exploited the very mission of his holiness Sri . Ramanuja Bhagavad Padal. See,I know the Sri Vaishnavism but I know even more of how they are now exploiting their own Acharya Ramanuja.He totally aborted caste differences and converted so many into Vaishnavas. But now I go to a Lokacharya's succession and ask for Pancha Samskara initiation.He wont give that.I know.In Srirangam for throwing 100 rupees at priests you can have hour long darshan of Periya Perumal while thousands are waiting in queue.It happens man.When Ragnadhar comes for Jeeyarpuram for a festival,low class men are not allowed to view his darshan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 3, 2005 jAbAlyupanishhad of the sAma veda: (jAbAli says:) pashupatirahaMkArAvishhTaH saMsArI jIvaH | The lord of pashus (Shiva) (acting as if) under the influence of ahaMkAra (ego) is the jIva (individual soul) (revolving) in worldly existence. sa eva pashuH | That (jIva) is himself a "pashu" (literally animal). sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH | The all-knowing Ishvara, the lord of all, and enodowed with the (power of performing) the five kinds of actions is called pashupatiH (the lord of the jIvas or pashus). ke pashava iti punaH sa tamuvAcha || (PaippalAdi) again asked (jAbAli): Who are the pashu's? jIvAH pashava uktAH | tatpatitvAt.h pashupatiH || The jIvas are pashu's. (Shiva) is called pashupati, being the lord of those (pashu's). ---------------------------see u are becoming emotional which is of no use. the Yajur Veda says that Shiva got the title 'Pasupathi' as a boon from the devatas in reply for his shooting the arrow on the tripuras. so the title is a fetched one not a natural one which is essential for one to be called Parama Purusha. Rudra got the title which means he didnot have it till then. how can it be that the Supreme was lacking in something? please think. --------------- asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH | utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH | utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH || (shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8) That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.) Sun shines because of Him. He is the person in Sun. And He is no Jiva; You crazy person. --------------- there are various hymns which say that the Person in the Surya is Purusha and it has been proved that the Purusha of Purusha sukta is Narayana. i've already given you the grammatical reason for Rudra not being a monopoly name. even if u take that Rudra is present in the sun that will not make him Supreme because the Vishnu Purana states that Rudra also resides in the Sun. ------------ Excellent baby. Ha. Ha. Yajamana himself is the steps of Visnu and Bolts of Indra. Yes that’s what I said: Yajamana (who is mortal) is the creator of immortal gods. There is a verse as below. ---------------- see u have become too emotional to read my explanation. Yajamana is praised to be as powerful as them(for he does the rajasuya which can be done only by an unparalleled Emperor). this does not mean that the mortal Yajamana is the creator of the deities mentioned. why don't u try to understand. ----------- YV ii. 2. 10. Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. ----------- this nowhere means that Rudra is Supreme. see the oblation was offered to Soma too. also Isana is considered as the deity of light. this cannot prove that Rudra is Supreme. ----------- pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h | yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10) Note: bhagavo - O Bhagavan O Bhagavan! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand. And some fools say that Rudra is not Bhagawan. ----------------- once again u r calling me names. try to be decent. Bhagawan does not mean Supreme Purusha. no one is denying the fact that rudra is a deva, a deity but that need not mean he is the Supreme. Indra is also called to be the greatest in some verses and there are some verses which say 'akashath brahma' will u say that the sky is Brahman. think well. finally you have not demolished my argument based on Sanskrit grammar which is my strongest point and it allows me to mean Rudra to be Narayana in all the places where the Vedas give him the Supremacy which cannot be done with Narayana. in the very first post 'indrapatni...' is a verse given by me as example. so in many places the vedas call Narayana as Rudra. Rudra, Isana ,Pashupati are names obtained by Rudra and not his natural names for he had none when he took birth. with due respects to the mahabhagavatha Shiva, Narayanat param nasti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 4, 2005 You say Rudra is not the Supreme. Very well. Be happy. He is the only one. There is no second. Well Pashupati is only one name in Sata Rudriya: sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH | The all-knowing Ishvara, the lord of all, and enodowed with the (power of performing) the five kinds of actions is called pashupatiH (the lord of the jIvas or pashus). And you said Rudra is Jiva. Iswara is Jiva? sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH is Jiva? And mind you Rudra is higher than Pasupatih. ******once again u r calling me names********** Could not help it. I am sorry. But what else a person who calls Ishwara a Jiva may deserve. Still I am sorry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 4, 2005 Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji, ************* Re (To Me the 'ONE' who is Narayana is Siva and is Visnu. I see both. While appearing Visnu and while going back Rudra. He is Sivam. He is Achyutam. He is explained as neti neti.) I have always beleived this, you have done a fine job explaining it,this has add strength to my belief. Thank you very much. ************* And Vedas have spoken of the 'ONE without a second' as Self (pure Atma), Consciousness (Bhava), Narayana, and Rudra, Brahman, Para Brahma. When the Lord is One without a second, where is the question of discussing Supremacy? One commits sin by engaging in such a discussion. RV II, Hymn 33 4 Let us not anger thee with (faulty) worship, Rudra, ill praise, Strong God! or mingled invocation. A few select verses are presented hereunder to expiate the sin. yA te rudra shivA tanUraghorApApakAshinI | tayA nastanuvA shantamayA girishantAbhichAkashIhi || ( shrI rudram: anuvAka 1 , rik 3; shvetAshvatara Up.: 3.5 ) O Rudra! O Girishanta By that form of Yours which is not terrifying, which destroys sin by its mere remembrance, and which is all blissful, please behold us and unite us with the highest good! Nama staraya Salutations to Him who is the Pravana mantra; Om. -- Regarding the shrI rudram, it is said: vR^ixasya mUlakena shakhAH puShyanti vai yathA | shive rudrajapAtprIte prItA evAsya devatAH | ato rudrajapAdeva bhuktimuktiprasiddhyataH || Even as by (watering) the roots of a tree, all its branches are nourished, so by pleasing Shiva with the chant of the Rudram , all the gods are pleased. -- Shri Rudram 1.1 AUM namaste rudra manyava uto ta ishhave namaH | namaste astu dhanvane bAhubhyAmuta te namaH || (Krishna Yajur Veda, Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 1) manyave - Your anger (Manyu-Indra) ishhave – arrow (Soma,Vishnu, Varuna, and Agni) O Rudra! Salutations to Your anger and salutations also to your arrow. May our salutations be to Your bow and salutations (be) to Your two hands (which wield the bow and the arrow). Vedic definitions of the word "rudra." rudaM saMsAraduHkhaM drAvayatIti rudra iti kechit.h| He is called Rudra because He drives away the sorrow of saMsAra (ephemeral existence) which is ruda rutiM shabdaM vedAtmAnaM brahmaNe dadAti kalpAdAviti rudra ityapare| He is Rudra because he gives ruti or the Vedic sounds to BrahmA at the beginning of the Kalpa. rodayati sarvamantakAla iti rudraH | He makes everyone weep at the time of leaving a body, so he is called Rudra. The arrow of Rudra: tasyA agniranIkamAsItsomaH shalyo vishhNustejanaM varuNaH parNAni iti | The face (of that arrow) was agni, the dart-head was Soma, VishhNu its sharp edge, and VaruNa its feathers. The PurANas describe the bow of Rudra as Meru, the mountain of gold. "kanakashailo devasya dhanuH" The MahAbhArata says: sa kR^itvA dhanuroMkAraM sAvitrIM jyAM maheshvaraH | hayAMshcha chaturo vedAnsarvadevamayaM ratham.h || Maheshvara made the Omkara the bow, SavitrI the bow-string, the four vedas the horses, and the chariot from all the gods. -- Shri Rudram 1.2 yA ta ishhuH shivatamA shivaM babhUva te dhanuH | shivA sharavyA yA tava tayA no rudra mR^iDaya || (Krishna Yajur Veda, Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 2) O Rudra! (By Your grace), Your arrow has become most auspicious or bestows happiness. Your bow has become auspicious. Your quiver of arrows has become auspicious. By these, the arrow, bow, and the quiver (which have turned auspicious and peaceful), do You make us happy. -- Shri Rudram 1.6 adhyavochadadhivaktA prathamo daivyo bhishhak.h | ahIMshcha sarvAJNjaMbhayansarvAshcha yAtudhAnyaH || (Shri Rudram: Anuvaka 1, Rik 6) May He (Rudra) speak in (my) favor, who always speaks in favor of His devotees, who is the foremost among Gods, who is the origin of Gods, and who is the best of healers, while annihilating the visible enemies and also the invisible enemies. -- Shri Rudram 1.7 asau yastAmro aruNa uta babhruH sumaN^galaH | ye chemAM rudrA abhito dikshhu shritAH sahasrasho vaishhAM heDa Imahe || That Rudra who is in Sun as Aditya is deep red (coppery red) while rising. He is slightly red, He is golden-yellow and others colors. This Rudra having different colors dispels darkness at different times and is hence extremely auspicious (sumaN^galaH). Those other forms of Rudra are the rays (of the sun) and they are situated in all directions such as the east, etc., around this earth by the thousands. We appease or remove the anger resembling heat of all these Rudras of the form of the rays of the sun by devotion, salutations, and so on. Note: "devasya jagadupasaMhArakamUrtiShvaShTamUrtiShvAdityasyApy- antarbhAvAt.h" Aditya (the sun) is included in the eight forms of Rudra by which He destroys the world (at the time of destruction). -- Shri Rudram 1.8 asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH | utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH | utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH || (shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8) That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.) A prA dyAvAprithivI antarikShaM sUrya AtmA jagatastasthuShashcha | sUrya (the sun), the soul (Atman) of all movable and immovable things, pervades the heaven, earth, and the intermediate region. -- Shri Rudram 1.9 namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe | atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 9) namaH - salutations to astu - may there be nIlagrIvAya - the blue-throated One sahasrAxAya - the thousand-eyed One (Indra ) mIDhushhe - the showerer of blessings/rain (Parjanya) May my salutations be to the blue-throated (Rudra), He who has a thousand eyes and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas. shvetAshvatara upaniShad eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | Rudra (Ishvara) is indeed one (unique), who rules these worlds by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity). -- Shri Rudram 1.10 pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h | yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10) bhagavo - O Bhagavan O Bhagavan (God) Rudra! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand. -- Shri Rudram 1.11 avatatya dhanustvaM sahasrAxa shateshhudhe | nishIrya shalyAnAM mukhA shivo naH sumanA bhava || O Rudra who are the thousand-eyed One and the Bearer of a hundred arrow-quivers! Having loosened Your bow-string and having degraded (made blunt) the tips of Your arrows, become benevolent and peaceful towards us. -- Shri Rudram 1.13 yA te hetirmIDhushhTama haste babhUva te dhanuH | tayA-smAnvishvatastvamayaxmayA paribbhuja || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 13) mIDhushhTama - O Showerer of desired things paribbhuja - protect The weapon of Yours, (such as the sword), becomes the bow in Your hand, O Showerer of desires! With that non-injurious (bow), do You protect us everywhere. Note: He is the protector and showers blessings -- namo hiraNyabAhave senAnye dishAM cha pataye namaH | Shri Rudram 2.2 Salutations to (Rudra) who has arms bearing golden ornaments (hiraNyabAhu), who is the commander of the troops (senAnI), and who is the Lord of the directions (dishAM patiH). Note: And salutations to Him who is the Lord of (and protects) the quarters or directions. -- Shri Rudram 2.4 namo babhlushAya vivyAdhine .annAnAM pataye namaH | Salutations to Him who rides the Bull (babhlushAya), Him who pierces the enemies (vivyAdhine) and Him who is the Lord (pataye) of foods (annAnAm.h). Note: Lord of Food. -- Shri Rudram 2.6 atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke ShaShThaM yajurAha namo bhavasya hetyai jagatAM pataye namaH || 6 || Salutations to the destroyer of ignorance/saMsAra (bhavasya hetyai) and salutations to the Lord of the worlds (jagatAM pataye). Note: Lord of Jagat -- Shri Rudram 2.7 atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke saptamaM yajurAha namo rudrAyAtatAvine xetrANAM pataye namaH || 7 || Salutations to Rudra (rudrAya), who protects with an extended bow, (AtatAvine), and salutations to the protector of xetra's, (xetrANAM pataye). Note: xetrANAM pataye. Khetra is sacred place as well as bodies -- Shri Rudram 2.9 atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke navamaM yajurAha namo rohitAya sthapataye vR^ixANAM pataye namaH || 9 || Salutations to the red complexioned One (rohitAya), to the Lord, (sthapataye) and salutations to the protector of trees (vR^ixANAM pataye). Namo bhuvantayou varivaskrutayau shadhinam patayou namo || Salutations to Him who has created the world and spread it broad, the creator of riches and lover of those who are devoted to Him; to the Lord of all vegetation, salutations. --- 3rd ANUVAKA Namah kakubhaya nishanginestenanam patayou namo | Salutations to Him who stands prominent, the wielder of the sword; to the prince of thieves, salutations. Note:Hara --- 4th ANUVAKA Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo | Salutations to you who are in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses. Note: Female Gods Namo ganebhyo Ganapati bhyascha vo namo | Salutations to you Ganas and their lords. Note: Ganapati Namo virupebhyo vishvarupe bhyascha vo namo Salutations to you who assume grotesque and monstrous forms (virupebhyo) and other diverse shapes (vishvarupe). Note: Viswarupa ---- 5th ANUVAKA Namo bhavaya cha Rudraya cha Salutations to Him who is the source of all things and to Him who is the destroyer of all ills. Note: The Consciousness, Bhava Namah sharvaya cha pashupatayou cha Salutations to the destroyer and to the protector of all beings in bondage. Namo nilagrivaya cha shiti kanthaya cha Salutations to Him whose throat is black and whose throat is also white. Namah sahasrakshaya cha shatadhanvane cha Salutations to Him who has a Thousand eyes and a hundred bows (Indra). Namo giri shaya cha sipivishtaya cha Salutations to Him who dwells on the mount and who is in the form of Vishnu. Namo middhushta maya ceshumate cha Salutations to Him who showers blessings (Parjanya) very much and who bears arrows. Namo hrasvaya cha vamanaya cha Salutations to Him who assumes a small size, and Him who is in the form of a vamana (Vishnu). Namo bruhate cha varshiyase cha Salutations to the great and majestic one, to Him who is full of all excellence. Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost. Nama Ashave chajiraya cha Salutations to Him who pervades all and moves swiftly. ----- Sixth Anuvaka Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all. Namo Madhya maya chapagalbhaya cha Salutations to Him who appears in the middle, and who appears undeveloped. Namah shobhyaya cha, prati saryaya cha Salutations to Him who is born in the mixed world of good and bad and in things that move. Namo yamyaya cha, kshemyaya cha Salutations to Yama and Khsema. Nama shlokyaya chavasanyaya cha Salutations to Him who is praised by the Vedic Mantras and who is expounded in the Vedantic Upanishads. Namah shravaya cha pratisravaya cha Salutations to Him who is sound and the echo of the sound (Vak). Nama shuraya cha, chavabhindate cha Salutations to the warrior, He who pierces his enemies. Namah shrutaya cha shrutasenaya cha Salutations to Him who is praised in the Vedas (Shrutaya) and whose army (Devas) is also praised. --------------------------- Seventh Anuvaka Namo dutaya cha, prahitaya cha Salutations to Him who is in the form of the messenger (Dutaya- Agni) and the representative sent for special purposes. Namo vastavyaya cha vastupaya cha. Salutations to Him who is household wealth and the guardian deity of the household (Vastospati). --------------------------- Eighth Anuvaka Namah somaya cha Rudraya cha Salutations to Him who is with His consort Uma. .Note: Soma Nama shangaya cha pashupatayou cha Salutations to Him who brings happiness and who is the Lord of all creatures. Note: Pasupati Namo hantre cha haniyase cha Salutations to Him who is in the form of everyone who slays, and who kills all at the time of Pralaya. Nama staraya Salutations to Him who is the Pravana mantra; Om. Note: OMKAR Namash shambhave cha mayo bhave cha Salutations to Him who is the source of happiness here and hereafter. Note: Shambhu Namah shankaraya cha mayaskaraya cha Note: Sankara Salutations to Him who is inherently of the nature of conferring happiness directly in this world and the world hereafter. Namah Shivaya cha Shivataraya cha Salutations to Him the auspicious one, who is more auspicious than all others. NAMAH SHIVAYA CHA SHIVATARAYA CHA Namah paryaya chavaryaya cha Salutations to Him who is in the other shore and on this shore. Note: Who is of this world and the other. Namah prataranaya chottaranaya cha Salutations to Him who ferries men over the sins and evils of Samsara (the Illusions of the world), and who by the grant of knowledge ferries them over Samsara altogether. Note: Lord You shower blessing and give Mukti Nama ataryaya chaladyaya cha Salutations to Him who is born again and again in Samsara and who tastes the fruits of Karmas in the form of Jiva. ----------------------------- Ninth Anuvaka Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace. Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo Salutations to you who shower wealth and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods. SALUTATIONS TO YOU WHO SHOWER WEALTH AND WHO DWELL IN THE HEARTS OF THE GODS. ------ Tenth Anuvaka Ya te Rudra Shiva tanu Shiva vishvaha bheshaji, Shiva Rudrasya Bhesaji tasya no mruda jivase || Oh Lord Rudra! Peaceful and auspicious, more highly auspicious, most highly auspicious uproots ignorance and the misery of samsara, by that gracious form of your make us lead a full and happy life. Mruda no Rudrota no maya skrudhi kshayadviraya Namasa vidhema te, yacchamcha yoscha manurayaje pita Tadshyama tava Rudra pranitau || Lord Rudra! Confer on us happiness in this world, and in the next. You who has destroyed our sins, we shall serve and worship you by our salutations. That freedom from sorrow which Manu, our progenitor, sought for and the happiness which he obtained, we shall taste it, if You are inclined and gracious to us. Stuhi shrutam garta sadam yuvanam mrugannabhima mupahat numugram, mruda jaritre Rudra Satvano anyante asmanniva pantu senaha || I praise you the famous one, seated in the heart, the ever-youthful, terrible like the lion, fierce for the purpose of destruction. Lord Rudra, having been praised by us, let your armies strike at others than us. Midhushthama shivatama shivo nah sumana bhava parame vriksha Ayudhan nidhaya krittim vasana achara pinakam bibhradagahi | Supreme showerer of blessings. Supreme auspicious One! Be auspicious and beneficent, and bear goodwill to us. Place your threatening and hurtful weapons on some tall and distant tree. Approach us wearing your elephant hide garment. Come bearing your Pinaka bow. Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah || Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies. Note: Namaste astu bhagavaha Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah | Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi || In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us. Prayer: Lord Rudra, you are TATPURUSA with thousand eyes and thousand arms. And TATPURUSA is you. Bless us Lord. Love us Lord. Do not keep us in shadow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 4, 2005 Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji, ************* Re (To Me the 'ONE' who is Narayana is Siva and is Visnu. I see both. While appearing Visnu and while going back Rudra. He is Sivam. He is Achyutam. He is explained as neti neti.) I have always beleived this, you have done a fine job explaining it,this has add strength to my belief. Thank you very much. ************* And Vedas have spoken of the 'ONE without a second' as Self (pure Atma), Consciousness (Bhava), Narayana, and Rudra, Brahman, Para Brahma. When the Lord is One without a second, where is the question of discussing Supremacy? One commits sin by engaging in such a discussion. RV II, Hymn 33 4 Let us not anger thee with (faulty) worship, Rudra, ill praise, Strong God! or mingled invocation. A few select verses are presented hereunder to expiate the sin. yA te rudra shivA tanUraghorApApakAshinI | tayA nastanuvA shantamayA girishantAbhichAkashIhi || ( shrI rudram: anuvAka 1 , rik 3; shvetAshvatara Up.: 3.5 ) O Rudra! O Girishanta By that form of Yours which is not terrifying, which destroys sin by its mere remembrance, and which is all blissful, please behold us and unite us with the highest good! Nama staraya Salutations to Him who is the Pravana mantra; Om. -- Regarding the shrI rudram, it is said: vR^ixasya mUlakena shakhAH puShyanti vai yathA | shive rudrajapAtprIte prItA evAsya devatAH | ato rudrajapAdeva bhuktimuktiprasiddhyataH || Even as by (watering) the roots of a tree, all its branches are nourished, so by pleasing Shiva with the chant of the Rudram , all the gods are pleased. -- Shri Rudram 1.1 AUM namaste rudra manyava uto ta ishhave namaH | namaste astu dhanvane bAhubhyAmuta te namaH || (Krishna Yajur Veda, Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 1) manyave - Your anger (Manyu-Indra) ishhave – arrow (Soma,Vishnu, Varuna, and Agni) O Rudra! Salutations to Your anger and salutations also to your arrow. May our salutations be to Your bow and salutations (be) to Your two hands (which wield the bow and the arrow). Vedic definitions of the word "rudra." rudaM saMsAraduHkhaM drAvayatIti rudra iti kechit.h| He is called Rudra because He drives away the sorrow of saMsAra (ephemeral existence) which is ruda rutiM shabdaM vedAtmAnaM brahmaNe dadAti kalpAdAviti rudra ityapare| He is Rudra because he gives ruti or the Vedic sounds to BrahmA at the beginning of the Kalpa. rodayati sarvamantakAla iti rudraH | He makes everyone weep at the time of leaving a body, so he is called Rudra. The arrow of Rudra: tasyA agniranIkamAsItsomaH shalyo vishhNustejanaM varuNaH parNAni iti | The face (of that arrow) was agni, the dart-head was Soma, VishhNu its sharp edge, and VaruNa its feathers. The PurANas describe the bow of Rudra as Meru, the mountain of gold. "kanakashailo devasya dhanuH" The MahAbhArata says: sa kR^itvA dhanuroMkAraM sAvitrIM jyAM maheshvaraH | hayAMshcha chaturo vedAnsarvadevamayaM ratham.h || Maheshvara made the Omkara the bow, SavitrI the bow-string, the four vedas the horses, and the chariot from all the gods. -- Shri Rudram 1.2 yA ta ishhuH shivatamA shivaM babhUva te dhanuH | shivA sharavyA yA tava tayA no rudra mR^iDaya || (Krishna Yajur Veda, Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 2) O Rudra! (By Your grace), Your arrow has become most auspicious or bestows happiness. Your bow has become auspicious. Your quiver of arrows has become auspicious. By these, the arrow, bow, and the quiver (which have turned auspicious and peaceful), do You make us happy. -- Shri Rudram 1.6 adhyavochadadhivaktA prathamo daivyo bhishhak.h | ahIMshcha sarvAJNjaMbhayansarvAshcha yAtudhAnyaH || (Shri Rudram: Anuvaka 1, Rik 6) May He (Rudra) speak in (my) favor, who always speaks in favor of His devotees, who is the foremost among Gods, who is the origin of Gods, and who is the best of healers, while annihilating the visible enemies and also the invisible enemies. -- Shri Rudram 1.7 asau yastAmro aruNa uta babhruH sumaN^galaH | ye chemAM rudrA abhito dikshhu shritAH sahasrasho vaishhAM heDa Imahe || That Rudra who is in Sun as Aditya is deep red (coppery red) while rising. He is slightly red, He is golden-yellow and others colors. This Rudra having different colors dispels darkness at different times and is hence extremely auspicious (sumaN^galaH). Those other forms of Rudra are the rays (of the sun) and they are situated in all directions such as the east, etc., around this earth by the thousands. We appease or remove the anger resembling heat of all these Rudras of the form of the rays of the sun by devotion, salutations, and so on. Note: "devasya jagadupasaMhArakamUrtiShvaShTamUrtiShvAdityasyApy- antarbhAvAt.h" Aditya (the sun) is included in the eight forms of Rudra by which He destroys the world (at the time of destruction). -- Shri Rudram 1.8 asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH | utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH | utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH || (shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8) That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.) A prA dyAvAprithivI antarikShaM sUrya AtmA jagatastasthuShashcha | sUrya (the sun), the soul (Atman) of all movable and immovable things, pervades the heaven, earth, and the intermediate region. -- Shri Rudram 1.9 namo astu nIlagrIvAya sahasrAxAya mIDhushhe | atho ye asya sattvAno .ahaM tebhyo .akaraM namaH || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 9) namaH - salutations to astu - may there be nIlagrIvAya - the blue-throated One sahasrAxAya - the thousand-eyed One (Indra ) mIDhushhe - the showerer of blessings/rain (Parjanya) May my salutations be to the blue-throated (Rudra), He who has a thousand eyes and who showers/fulfills (all desires of His devotees) as Parjanya. Also, I bow to His followers, the pramatha- gaNas. shvetAshvatara upaniShad eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | Rudra (Ishvara) is indeed one (unique), who rules these worlds by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity). -- Shri Rudram 1.10 pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h | yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10) bhagavo - O Bhagavan O Bhagavan (God) Rudra! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand. -- Shri Rudram 1.11 avatatya dhanustvaM sahasrAxa shateshhudhe | nishIrya shalyAnAM mukhA shivo naH sumanA bhava || O Rudra who are the thousand-eyed One and the Bearer of a hundred arrow-quivers! Having loosened Your bow-string and having degraded (made blunt) the tips of Your arrows, become benevolent and peaceful towards us. -- Shri Rudram 1.13 yA te hetirmIDhushhTama haste babhUva te dhanuH | tayA-smAnvishvatastvamayaxmayA paribbhuja || (Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 13) mIDhushhTama - O Showerer of desired things paribbhuja - protect The weapon of Yours, (such as the sword), becomes the bow in Your hand, O Showerer of desires! With that non-injurious (bow), do You protect us everywhere. Note: He is the protector and showers blessings -- namo hiraNyabAhave senAnye dishAM cha pataye namaH | Shri Rudram 2.2 Salutations to (Rudra) who has arms bearing golden ornaments (hiraNyabAhu), who is the commander of the troops (senAnI), and who is the Lord of the directions (dishAM patiH). Note: And salutations to Him who is the Lord of (and protects) the quarters or directions. -- Shri Rudram 2.4 namo babhlushAya vivyAdhine .annAnAM pataye namaH | Salutations to Him who rides the Bull (babhlushAya), Him who pierces the enemies (vivyAdhine) and Him who is the Lord (pataye) of foods (annAnAm.h). Note: Lord of Food. -- Shri Rudram 2.6 atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke ShaShThaM yajurAha namo bhavasya hetyai jagatAM pataye namaH || 6 || Salutations to the destroyer of ignorance/saMsAra (bhavasya hetyai) and salutations to the Lord of the worlds (jagatAM pataye). Note: Lord of Jagat -- Shri Rudram 2.7 atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke saptamaM yajurAha namo rudrAyAtatAvine xetrANAM pataye namaH || 7 || Salutations to Rudra (rudrAya), who protects with an extended bow, (AtatAvine), and salutations to the protector of xetra's, (xetrANAM pataye). Note: xetrANAM pataye. Khetra is sacred place as well as bodies -- Shri Rudram 2.9 atha namaka-dvitIyaanuvAke navamaM yajurAha namo rohitAya sthapataye vR^ixANAM pataye namaH || 9 || Salutations to the red complexioned One (rohitAya), to the Lord, (sthapataye) and salutations to the protector of trees (vR^ixANAM pataye). Namo bhuvantayou varivaskrutayau shadhinam patayou namo || Salutations to Him who has created the world and spread it broad, the creator of riches and lover of those who are devoted to Him; to the Lord of all vegetation, salutations. --- 3rd ANUVAKA Namah kakubhaya nishanginestenanam patayou namo | Salutations to Him who stands prominent, the wielder of the sword; to the prince of thieves, salutations. Note:Hara --- 4th ANUVAKA Nama uganabhya strumhati bhyascha vo namo | Salutations to you who are in the form of the superior female Gods and the fierce vengeful and powerful Goddesses. Note: Female Gods Namo ganebhyo Ganapati bhyascha vo namo | Salutations to you Ganas and their lords. Note: Ganapati Namo virupebhyo vishvarupe bhyascha vo namo Salutations to you who assume grotesque and monstrous forms (virupebhyo) and other diverse shapes (vishvarupe). Note: Viswarupa ---- 5th ANUVAKA Namo bhavaya cha Rudraya cha Salutations to Him who is the source of all things and to Him who is the destroyer of all ills. Note: The Consciousness, Bhava Namah sharvaya cha pashupatayou cha Salutations to the destroyer and to the protector of all beings in bondage. Namo nilagrivaya cha shiti kanthaya cha Salutations to Him whose throat is black and whose throat is also white. Namah sahasrakshaya cha shatadhanvane cha Salutations to Him who has a Thousand eyes and a hundred bows (Indra). Namo giri shaya cha sipivishtaya cha Salutations to Him who dwells on the mount and who is in the form of Vishnu. Namo middhushta maya ceshumate cha Salutations to Him who showers blessings (Parjanya) very much and who bears arrows. Namo hrasvaya cha vamanaya cha Salutations to Him who assumes a small size, and Him who is in the form of a vamana (Vishnu). Namo bruhate cha varshiyase cha Salutations to the great and majestic one, to Him who is full of all excellence. Namo Agriyaya cha prathamaya cha Salutations to Him who was before all things and who is foremost. Nama Ashave chajiraya cha Salutations to Him who pervades all and moves swiftly. ----- Sixth Anuvaka Namah purvajaya chaparajaya cha Salutations to Him who was before all and who will be born after all. Namo Madhya maya chapagalbhaya cha Salutations to Him who appears in the middle, and who appears undeveloped. Namah shobhyaya cha, prati saryaya cha Salutations to Him who is born in the mixed world of good and bad and in things that move. Namo yamyaya cha, kshemyaya cha Salutations to Yama and Khsema. Nama shlokyaya chavasanyaya cha Salutations to Him who is praised by the Vedic Mantras and who is expounded in the Vedantic Upanishads. Namah shravaya cha pratisravaya cha Salutations to Him who is sound and the echo of the sound (Vak). Nama shuraya cha, chavabhindate cha Salutations to the warrior, He who pierces his enemies. Namah shrutaya cha shrutasenaya cha Salutations to Him who is praised in the Vedas (Shrutaya) and whose army (Devas) is also praised. --------------------------- Seventh Anuvaka Namo dutaya cha, prahitaya cha Salutations to Him who is in the form of the messenger (Dutaya- Agni) and the representative sent for special purposes. Namo vastavyaya cha vastupaya cha. Salutations to Him who is household wealth and the guardian deity of the household (Vastospati). --------------------------- Eighth Anuvaka Namah somaya cha Rudraya cha Salutations to Him who is with His consort Uma. .Note: Soma Nama shangaya cha pashupatayou cha Salutations to Him who brings happiness and who is the Lord of all creatures. Note: Pasupati Namo hantre cha haniyase cha Salutations to Him who is in the form of everyone who slays, and who kills all at the time of Pralaya. Nama staraya Salutations to Him who is the Pravana mantra; Om. Note: OMKAR Namash shambhave cha mayo bhave cha Salutations to Him who is the source of happiness here and hereafter. Note: Shambhu Namah shankaraya cha mayaskaraya cha Note: Sankara Salutations to Him who is inherently of the nature of conferring happiness directly in this world and the world hereafter. Namah Shivaya cha Shivataraya cha Salutations to Him the auspicious one, who is more auspicious than all others. NAMAH SHIVAYA CHA SHIVATARAYA CHA Namah paryaya chavaryaya cha Salutations to Him who is in the other shore and on this shore. Note: Who is of this world and the other. Namah prataranaya chottaranaya cha Salutations to Him who ferries men over the sins and evils of Samsara (the Illusions of the world), and who by the grant of knowledge ferries them over Samsara altogether. Note: Lord You shower blessing and give Mukti Nama ataryaya chaladyaya cha Salutations to Him who is born again and again in Samsara and who tastes the fruits of Karmas in the form of Jiva. ----------------------------- Ninth Anuvaka Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace. Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo Salutations to you who shower wealth and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods. SALUTATIONS TO YOU WHO SHOWER WEALTH AND WHO DWELL IN THE HEARTS OF THE GODS. ------ Tenth Anuvaka Ya te Rudra Shiva tanu Shiva vishvaha bheshaji, Shiva Rudrasya Bhesaji tasya no mruda jivase || Oh Lord Rudra! Peaceful and auspicious, more highly auspicious, most highly auspicious uproots ignorance and the misery of samsara, by that gracious form of your make us lead a full and happy life. Mruda no Rudrota no maya skrudhi kshayadviraya Namasa vidhema te, yacchamcha yoscha manurayaje pita Tadshyama tava Rudra pranitau || Lord Rudra! Confer on us happiness in this world, and in the next. You who has destroyed our sins, we shall serve and worship you by our salutations. That freedom from sorrow which Manu, our progenitor, sought for and the happiness which he obtained, we shall taste it, if You are inclined and gracious to us. Stuhi shrutam garta sadam yuvanam mrugannabhima mupahat numugram, mruda jaritre Rudra Satvano anyante asmanniva pantu senaha || I praise you the famous one, seated in the heart, the ever-youthful, terrible like the lion, fierce for the purpose of destruction. Lord Rudra, having been praised by us, let your armies strike at others than us. Midhushthama shivatama shivo nah sumana bhava parame vriksha Ayudhan nidhaya krittim vasana achara pinakam bibhradagahi | Supreme showerer of blessings. Supreme auspicious One! Be auspicious and beneficent, and bear goodwill to us. Place your threatening and hurtful weapons on some tall and distant tree. Approach us wearing your elephant hide garment. Come bearing your Pinaka bow. Vikirida vilohita Namaste astu bhagavaha, Yaste sahasragam hetayo nyamasmanniva pantu tah || Showerer of wealth! You white One! Lord Bhagavan! Salutations to you. Let your thousands of weapons not destroy us, but rather destroy our enemies. Note: Namaste astu bhagavaha Sahasrani sahasradha bahuvostava hetayah | Tasamishano bhagavah parachina mukha krudhi || In your arms exist thousands of kinds of weapons in thousands of numbers. But Bhagavan, You art Lord and master of them. Turn their hurtful faces away from us. Prayer: Lord Rudra, you are TATPURUSA with thousand eyes and thousand arms. And TATPURUSA is you. Bless us Lord. Love us Lord. Do not keep us in shadow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 4, 2005 eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthu- rya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH | Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
