Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2005 ********P.S. I would like to clarify that I have made no interpretation of my own in my answer, so please do not accuse me of doing so.************* Compare this with the statement below: *********This does not indicate anything about an invalidity of the Puranas. In fact, if anything it seems to indicate and predict the jugglery of the Buddhists who would reject the Vedas.************* Judgements and judgements alone. *********"He is indescribable" Which is why I rely on the descriptions God gives Himself in the scriptures. I do not limit Him to say that He has no form, when he specifically says He does have a transcendental form in the scriptures.***************** That is why translations of your sources are always suspect. What shruti describes as indescribable becomes "Transcendebntal form" etc., etc. I am sorry that I do not consider your translations genuine at all. The example given in another thread of the verse Gita13.13 is a proof. And there are several others. In these translations I always find attempts to introduce the word Supreme at some places and demi-god at others. Where “Rudras” are mentioned, it is translated as “Rudra”. Where “Kamalasanastha Lord Brahma” is mentioned, it is translated as “Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva”. Where “Anadimatparam” is given, it is parsed as “Anadi Mat-param”. All lies. And one example is right here; where Mahat Hareh is translated as Supreme Lord Hari' as below (from Brahma Samhita). “--- kamo bijam mahad hareh” is translated as "---- of supreme Lord Hareh" Mahat becomes Supreme. What pathos. And for the rest of discussions, where the subject is nothing but EGO, I simply decide to opt out, leaving you the clear winner. For me the followings are enough 6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h . patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\- vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7.. 6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM. Book 1 TEXT 10 saktiman purusah so 'yam linga-rupi mahesvarah tasminn avirabhul linge maha-visnur jagat-patih I will rather meditate on paramam parastad, patim patinam paramam linga rupi mahesvaram and not waste your and my time. Mental discussions are very far away from meditation and brahma jigyasa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2005 Hare Krishna, (1) Even my indication about Buddhists is not interpretation, because that it self is based on the prediction given in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. (2) I gave the quotes from the Gita regarding the fact that God has form, therefore that is also not interpretation. Please read the full post. (3) I don;t know what you mean by Kamalasanastha. Where is that from? (4) Anadi mat param - is exactly how it is written in the gita - what you talking about? (5) If it is more easy for you, then we can leave it as 'of Hari' is that ok? I'm sorry if you do not agree that Hari is Supreme. You want to be to mention a verse to confirm that also? Anyway, I know you don;t have a problem with Hari as supreme, because you are suggesting Shiva and Hari are exactly the same entity. (6) I too agree this discussion is useless. You still fail to clarify which acharya you are following and which parampara he is coming from. Otherwise what authority are you basing your arguments on? One cannot just rely on shastra, one must also approach a bona fide acharya - otherwise one cannot understand the purport to the scripture. Your aspiring servant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 26, 2005 ***********I know you don;t have a problem with Hari as supreme, because you are suggesting Shiva and Hari are exactly the same entity.**************** You are correct. ************(1) Even my indication about Buddhists is not interpretation, because that it self is based on the prediction given in the Srimad-Bhagavatam ************************ Can you show in Bhagavatam, where it is written about Bhudddists? May be I do not know. ******************** (3) I don;t know what you mean by Kamalasanastha. Where is that from? (4) Anadi mat param - is exactly how it is written in the gita - what you talking about? ************************** Regarding all these please take more time. Find in Gita whether it is “anadi mat-param” or is it anaadimatparam, which means Lord without a beginning. Anaadi mat --- of no beginning. And find out the verse containing kamalasanastha and its translation by the preacher you are following. Then compare with some other translations. **********Never is it written in the Vedas that one can chose any deity and worship him as God. The deity is defined by the scriptures - which one is supreme is also described in the scriptures.********************* ************* (2) I gave the quotes from the Gita regarding the fact that God has form, therefore that is also not interpretation. Please read the full post. ************************************************** Ayam Atma Brahma, This Atma is That Brahman (Mandyuka) Self, from which your awareness of existence (I am) comes forth, is the Supreme and ONE WITHOUT A SECOND (advaitam). That is the message of all scriptures. Atma is described as the Supreme, The inner being; the core. From atma comes the third state of pragnya (Mandyuka) or purusha( Aitreya) – the Lord of all. Mandyuka Upanishad 5. Where the sleeper desires not a thing of enjoyment and sees not any dream, that state is deep sleep. (The Self) seated in the state of deep sleep and called Prajna, in whom everything is unified, who is dense with consciousness, who is full of bliss, who is certainly the enjoyer of bliss, and who is the door to the knowledge (of the preceding two states), is the third quarter. 6. This is the Lord of all; this is omniscient; this is the in-dwelling controller (of all); this is the source and indeed the origin and dissolution of all beings. 7. The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious and non-dual (shivam advaitam). That is the Self; that is to be known. 12. That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual (shivo advaitam). Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self. When scriptures say that in pragnya (consciousness) all beings are dissolved (6th verse above), what and who remains to check the form of the Supreme? Dvaita, vishistaadvaita are lower states when the interpreter is full of mind (thoughts). THE SUPREME STATE IS SHIVO ADVAITAM. IT IS THE HIGHEST STATE OF VISHNU. Scriptures say Prajnanam Brahma: Consciousness is Brahman (Aitareya Upanishad 3.3, of Rg Veda), and since the turiya is beyond the third state of Pragnya, shivo advaitam is said to be param parastad – beyond the supreme. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence. The one who is without beginning and without end, in the middle of confusion, the creator of all, of diverse form, is the one embracer of the universe. By knowing the divine, one is released from all restriction. The incorporeal is to be apprehended by the heart, the master of existence and non-existence, the benign one -Shiva, the divine maker of all creation and its parts. Those who know this, leave the body behind. "He who protects and controls the worlds by His own powers, He- Rudra - is indeed one only. There is no one beside Him who can make Him the second. O men, He is present inside the heart of all beings. After projecting and maintaining all the worlds, He finally withdraws them into Himself" (III-2 Svet. Upanishad). There is only ONE BEING. ********************* 6) I too agree this discussion is useless. scripture. *************** We agree. Let personality comparisons stop. Let it be a post describing Shiva and not a personality contest. There are enough beauty contests and enough Mr. Universe contests in the world. Om Namah Vasudevayya Namah Om namah Sivayya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
