Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 I pity you Raghuramji. ******* Rig Veda Visnu the all pervadere: 7.099.01 Expanding with a body beyond all measure, Vis.n.u men comprehend not your magnitude; we know these your two worlds (computing) from the earth, but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible; cf. RV. 10.082.05]. ********************** As always you defeat your cause. You have youself said above: “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognizant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible “. You are really foolish. After fighting for so long, you give a verse which says: “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible”. Do you understand? Vishnu is cognisant of the highest. Do you know what cognizant means. Please look up dictionary. That is why in Bhagavatam Lord Shiva praises Vishnu as “The best Self realized person” Vishnu is cognizant of the highest. Vishnu knows the highest. But who is the highest? Better first see in the dictionary what ‘cognisant’ means. If you wish you may read below. Rest whatever you write contradicts the above. So, what is given below is for the sake of records. Bechara. I pity you. ************* Read the following verse, which clearly says that no BEING ever attained Visnu's greatness. This includes Rudra Deva also, who cannot attain sucg greatness. 7.099.02 No being that is or that has been born, divine Vis.n.u, has attained the utmost limit of your magnitude by which you have upheld the vast and beautiful heaven, and sustained the eastern horizon of the earth. [Eastern horizon = the entire earth; Vis.n.u's upholding the three worlds has been mentioned more than once; cf. RV. 1.154.4]. ******************** Yes, I pity you. Where is in Vedas, Rudra Devas birth mentioned? He is undecaying father. Whereas all others have birth Rudra is Pragnya. Where is Rudra mentioned in above verse? Why insert Rudra? ************ Dear Atanu, why do you post some nonsense when you do not understand sanskrit in the first place. There are so many mistakes you make and you are incapable of understanding anything properly. Your logic is at best dumb for you do not understand what you read at the first place. ************** You are shameless. When something does not suit your opinion you wish it away by saying either ‘tamasic’ or ‘wrong translation’. That you are a fouler of scriptures is known world over. Reproducing in Sanskrit does not make you a knower of Sanskrit. Rather you act as if you are a pandit, but your logic gives you away. ******* What is known by VAC, is Lakshmi Devi. Why ? ********** Saraswati is VAC. Your imaginations do not create Vedas. ******* Read the verse 7 attentively without shivite delusion: aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean. What is VAC (ie Lakshmi Devi) saying ? That HER home is in the Samudra. SHE is refering to KshiraSamudra here. Do you think Rudra Deva is in Samudra ? Definitely not. Only Visnu is in Samudra. Get it What does this mean ? that She, VAC, is Lakshmi Devi. ************ Foolish arguments. Aja Ekapada which is a name of Shiva is the one inside waters and everywhere else. Waters is Goddesses. Extrapolate as you wish and suffer in your mind of doubts. A lying mind does not get peace. Father is Rudra. RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas. 10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us. “Undecaying”. You understand? Girisa is Rudra at the world summit. YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage YV iv. 5. 5. a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra. b Homage to Çarva and to the lord of cattle. c Homage to the blue-necked one, and to the white-throated. d Homage to the wearer of braids, and to him of shaven hair. e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow. Who is Girisa. Who is Cipivista? Who is bearer of the arrow? And who is the arrow? g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow. Who is the bolt of Indra. Who is the step of Visnu? YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu You with your deviant mind will like to term whole of Vedas and untrue. And you will like to proclaim that only your translations are true. ******** yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám This same VAC also says, As per my desire(yáM kaamáye), I make one Rudra(ugráM kRNomi), BrahmA(tám brahmaáNaM), a Rsi(tám R'SiM) and a wise man(táM sumedhaám). *********** Foolish. It is ugram. Not Rudra. You show Rudra where there is no Rudra. Your logic gives you away. Being consort of Vishnu why would Lakshmi Devi give Rudra all the powers that He becomes the strongest undefeatable and Self Dependent. ******************** In reply to: First read this. Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Yes. He does not yeild, but Rudra Deva does not yield his position of Rudra. That is what is meant here. ****************** “but Rudra Deva does not yield his position of Rudra” Wow, what does it mean? Do you understand it yourself? You proud knower of Sanskrit? Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Rudra alone yieldeth to no second Rudra alone yieldeth to no second **************** In reply to: RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God I think as usual the translation is wrong. There is no word as self-dependent in this verse. Here is the correct translation. ***************** Be unhappy with your ideas. You think the translations are wrong? Well who cares for your thinking? ****** imaá rudraáya sthirádhanvane gíraH kSipréSave devaáya svadhaávne áSaaLhaaya sáhamaanaaya vedháse tigmaáyudhaaya bharataa shRNótu naH Offer these praises to the divine Rudra, armed with the strong bow and fast-flying arrows, the equipoised, the bestower of food, the invincible, the conqueror, the creator, the wielder of sharp weapons; may he hear our (praises) ************ Your verse is even stronger baby. “----- the invincible, the conqueror, the creator ------“. Nothing more is required. ***************** Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest, all other Devatas(anya devatas except Lord Visnu and Agni Deva, includes Rudra as Rudra is also a devata as mentioned in previous verse) occupy positions inbetween. Case closed. Rudra Deva is lower by this Sruti quoted above and also by Rig Veda 7:40:5 ********** Where is Rudra Deva here? Rudra unleashes the arrow consisting of Agni as the tip and Vishnu as the shaft. Vishnu is Rudra’s lofty arrow Yajur Veda vi. 2. 3. The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, let him shoot it.' Your desperation is showing. As in the case of Devi Sukta where you convert “Ugra” to Rudra, here you insert Rudra, where there is no Rudra. On the other hand. Vishnu Deva is Rudra’s arrow. Do you think others are as senseless as you are? ------------------------------ Also it was pointed that Indra was born through Soma. But here Indra is said to be Somapati ie Soma's master. prá sú víshvaan rakSáso dhákSy agne bhávaa yajñaánaam abhishastipaávaa áthaá vaha sómapatiM háribhyaam aatithyám asmai cakRmaa sudaávne 1,076.03 Utterly consume all the ra_ks.asas, Agni, and be the protector of our sacrifices against interruption. Bring hither the guardian of Soma, (Indra), with his steeds, that we may show hospitality to the giver of food. [somapati: a remarkable epithet for Indra (though not mentioned in the text, indicated by reference to haribhya_m, Indra's two steeds]. ------------------------ Again you show your ignorance. The following does not refute that Soma is the father of Indra and Vishnu. Neither it refutes that Vishnu praises and lauds Indra. 3 Burn thou up all the Riksasas, O Agni; ward thou off curses from our sacrifices. Bring hither with his Bays the Lord of Soma: here is glad welcome for the Bounteous Giver. I have told time and again that you unwittingly bring out the truth. Lord of Soma. Who is Somnath? Yes baby, who is Somnath? Soma is socket of Rudra’s arrow. Visnhu is shaft. Agni is the tip of the arrow. Most potent. Vishnu is the body. And read these to know more about Soma. Soma when purified is the Self of Indra. When Indra becomes Pavanama, who is Self produced. Book 9 HYMN V Soma- Pavamana 1. ENKINDLED, Pavamana, Lord, sends forth his light on, every side In friendly show, the bellowing Bull. 2 He, Pavamana, Self-produced, speeds onward sharpening his horns: He glitters through the firmament. 7 Both Gods who look on men I call, Celestial Heralds: Indra's Self Is Pavamana, yea, the Bull. Book 9 HYMN VI. Soma Pavamana. 1. SOMA, flow on with pleasant stream, a Bull devoted to the Gods, Our Friend, unto the woollen sieve. 2 Pour hitherward, as Indra's Self, Indu, that gladdening stream of thine,.. And through Soma only Indra attains the ancient, undecaying Rudra. Indra is Rudra when “his mind pure and meet for lauds”. Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra. 1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he. 20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this. So, Indra alone is the foremost deva. This is also the matter of Keno Upanishad. Where he is the first knower of Brahman. *************** In reply to: Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9. a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma. b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma. ----------------------- PLEASE NOTE IT WELL. THOU ART THE PORTION OF INDRA, THE OVERLORDSHIP OF VISNU. AND WHO IS THOU? THOU definitely does not refer to Rudra Deva. THOU here refers to the performer of the sacrifice. The verses here have to be explained in context. Indra is the elder brother of Visnu, ie Vamana avatara. The whole Vedas refers t this Avatara very frequently. Only in this context, this can be explained. *********** You have always to insert contexts. I don’t have to. It does not matter “who thou is?”. What matters is that Indra is Vishnu’s Lord. And when Indra’s mind is purified through Soma, the Indra attains the height of Rudra. ******* Visnu is beginingless. Read the following verses. ********** This I do not deny. Since Rudra is iundecaying, so also Vishnu must be. If Rudra goes then only Vishnu will go. RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas. 10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us. “Undecaying”. You understand? YV ii. 6. 8. The gods excluded Rudra from the sacrifice; he pierced the sacrifice, the gods gathered round it (saying), 'May it be right for us.' They said, 'Well offered will this be for us, if we propitiate him.' Om Namah Sivayya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 You are trying to cheat with full knowledge. You are blind folded. And that gives you thousand doubts and one verse you show contradicts the other. ***************** In reply to: I WILL NOW GIVE YOU A STILL BETTER DEVI SUKTA. YOU WILL KNOW WHY ADITI HOLDS ALOFT ALL DEVAS, EARTH, HEAVEN, SON AND FATHER? SINCE SHE IS ALL OF THEM. Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas. 10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born. ADITI, THE ADVAITAM IS ALL -- THE MOTHER AND THE SIRE AND SON, ALL GODS, ALL THAT HATH BEEN BORN AND SHALL BE BORN. The translation and understanding is completely wrong. The original sanskrit verse is áditir dyaúr áditir antárikSam áditir maataá sá pitaá sá putráH víshve devaá áditiH páñca jánaa áditir jaatám áditir jánitvam Here Visvedevas are a category of Devatas and not all Devatas. Otherwise what is the need to mention Dyaus here. Dyaus is one of the Vasus, who are a category of Devatas. Atanu, please try to understand rather than repeat like a parrot and copy and paste. There are many categories of Devatas like Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Visvedevas, Maruts, Asvini-kumaras and Rbhus. So much for your FALSE knowledge called advaita Atanu. **************** I request you to stop parroting your masters who had a need to bring people to bhakti and so taught certain things. But being enlightened you should discriminate. Accepting the truth will only give you peace. Dyaus is not a category of Vasus. Dyaus is the heaven. And even if Dyaus is Vasu, the all Devatas (viveDevas) become category of Devatas?.. Under visvedevas, many times Visnu is mentioned. So, He is just a category of devata? Whatever does not suit you, becomes a wrong translation. I repeat: Under visvedevas, many times Visnu is mentioned. So, He is just a category of devata? Visve Devas includes all gods. Under Visve Devas, Indra, Agni, Vishnu and all are praised. ***************** In reply to: Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas 9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard. 11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise. This is classic example of shivite or advaitic cheating and mistranslation. Miss two verses inbetween, change the meaning and make it appear as something else. Let the readers read fully and understanbd this correctly. 10.092.09 Address praise today with reverence to Rudra the powerful destroyer of the heroes, (who is accompanied) by the mounted (Maruts), the granters of wishes, together with whom he, propitious, possessing kinsmen, besprinkles (the worshippers) from heaven. 10.092.10 Inasmuch as Br.haspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedeva_s), bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhr.gus discovered (the cattle). [With strength: i.e., with the strength acquired from the sacrifice which they had eaten; having gone to the sacrifice made by Atharvan, they discovered the cattle; cf. RV 1.83.5]. 10.092.11 They the heaven and earth, abounding with waters, the Nara_s'am.sa rite with its four fires, Yama, Aditi, the divine Tvas.t.a_, (Agni) the giver of wealth, the R.bhus, Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u are worshipped (by us). ------------------------ ******************* See how you fail yourself. Under Visvedevas all gods are spoken of. And what does inasmuch as mean? Rudra deserves all the praise: “inasmuch as brhaspati, atharvan, Vishnu, aditi etc., claim and merit their respective praise.” What of Sanskrit? Simple common sense and preliminary English are also not your strengths. In the light of the followings: YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. The following is absolutely correct. Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas 9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard. 11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise. Accept that Rudra is the sparkling Self of all Gods. Om Namah Sivayya. And even if you parrot foolishly "Rudra is lower that Vayu since Vayu drank the poison with Rudra", Rudra does not become low. You become low. Vayu is Kewshin a Rudra Gana, who drank poison from Rudra's cup. This story is well known from Puranas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 You are gring, whatever that means. "Kesin drank poison from Ruda's cup." Does it mean Kesin becomes higher than Rudra. Hail your logic and intelligence. *********** Sruti is a higher pramAnA than Bhagavatam. VVayu Sukta is clear about Rudra Deva's position relative to Vayu Deva. The explanation is above. Bhagavatam also contains tamasic verses, which can be known clearly through this SRuti. ************* Yes now kill Bhagavatam. **************** This verse explains why Vayu Deva was not affected by poison as much as Rudra Deva. ************** Show us where is this said? Where it is said that Rudra was much affected and Vayu was not as much affected. If this is your opinion, then it is pardonable. Since your level is apparent. ************** Now why Rudra Deva was allowed to drink with Vayu Deva, is because Vayu Deva wanted Rudra to gain glory out of Vayu's mercy. ***************** This is not only foolish. But you are the fool for all to see. where is this claimed in the verse? You think that your copying and pasting the sanskrit fragments make you look genuine? No, you are just a fake. We are wasting our time on your interpretations, which a ten year old will not think logical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 Who is father and who is Girisa? You want to chnge these also? Ha. YV iv. 5. 5. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. As Vishnu, Rudra alone is cipivista, Girisa, and father. If you can cite one verse I can many. Rudra is called AgnaVishnu in Shree Rudram. I know what will be your repartee. "Shree Rudram" is tamasic. I pity you Raghuramji. You know very well that Vishnu is supported by Adisesha but you still hope against hope. This is not love of Lord but love of one’s blind faith (love of mind and ego). I duplicate the post given earlier for your benefit. See the meaning of cognizant. And now do not say that you mis-translated. ******* Rig Veda Visnu the all pervadere: 7.099.01 Expanding with a body beyond all measure, Vis.n.u men comprehend not your magnitude; we know these your two worlds (computing) from the earth, but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible; cf. RV. 10.082.05]. ********************** As always you defeat your cause. You have youself said above: “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognizant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible “. You are really foolish. After fighting for so long, you give a verse which says: “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible”. Do you understand? Vishnu is cognisant of the highest. Do you know what cognizant means. Please look up dictionary. That is why in Bhagavatam Lord Shiva praises Vishnu as “The best Self realized person” Vishnu is cognizant of the highest. Vishnu knows the highest. But who is the highest? Better first see in the dictionary what ‘cognisant’ means. If you wish you may read below. Rest whatever you write contradicts the above. So, what is given below is for the sake of records. Bechara. I pity you. And Vishnu is all pervading. That is true. But what about these? Who is cipivista, who is lord of mountains, who has entered all beings? YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage YV iv. 5. 5. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow. ************* Read the following verse, which clearly says that no BEING ever attained Visnu's greatness. This includes Rudra Deva also, who cannot attain sucg greatness. 7.099.02 No being that is or that has been born, divine Vis.n.u, has attained the utmost limit of your magnitude by which you have upheld the vast and beautiful heaven, and sustained the eastern horizon of the earth. [Eastern horizon = the entire earth; Vis.n.u's upholding the three worlds has been mentioned more than once; cf. RV. 1.154.4]. ******************** Yes, I pity you. Where in Vedas is Rudra Devas birth mentioned? He is un decaying father. Whereas all others have birth. Rudra is Pragnya, the root. Where is Rudra mentioned in above verse? Why insert Rudra? ************ Dear Atanu, why do you post some nonsense when you do not understand sanskrit in the first place. There are so many mistakes you make and you are incapable of understanding anything properly. Your logic is at best dumb for you do not understand what you read at the first place. ************** You are shameless. When something does not suit your opinion you wish it away by saying either ‘tamasic’ or ‘wrong translation’. That you are a fouler of scriptures is known world over. Reproducing in Sanskrit does not make you a knower of Sanskrit. Rather you act as if you are a pandit, but your logic gives you away. ******* What is known by VAC, is Lakshmi Devi. Why ? ********** Saraswati is VAC. Your imaginations do not create Vedas. ******* Read the verse 7 attentively without shivite delusion: aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean. What is VAC (ie Lakshmi Devi) saying ? That HER home is in the Samudra. SHE is refering to KshiraSamudra here. Do you think Rudra Deva is in Samudra ? Definitely not. Only Visnu is in Samudra. Get it What does this mean ? that She, VAC, is Lakshmi Devi. ************ Foolish arguments. Aja Ekapada which is a name of Shiva is the one inside waters and everywhere else. Waters is Goddesses. Extrapolate as you wish and suffer in your mind of doubts. A lying mind does not get peace. Father is Rudra. RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas. 10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us. “Undecaying”, father of the Universe. You understand? Girisa is Rudra at the world summit. Bhagavatam 31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage YV iv. 5. 5. a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra. b Homage to Çarva and to the lord of cattle. c Homage to the blue-necked one, and to the white-throated. d Homage to the wearer of braids, and to him of shaven hair. e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow. Who is Girisa. Who is Cipivista? Who is bearer of the arrow? And who is the arrow? Who is the bolt of Indra. Who is the step of Visnu? YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu You with your deviant mind will like to term whole of Vedas and untrue. And you will like to proclaim that only your translations are true. ******** yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám This same VAC also says, As per my desire(yáM kaamáye), I make one Rudra(ugráM kRNomi), BrahmA(tám brahmaáNaM), a Rsi(tám R'SiM) and a wise man(táM sumedhaám). *********** Foolish. It is ugram. Not Rudra. You show Rudra where there is no Rudra. Your logic gives you away. Being consort of Vishnu why would Lakshmi Devi give Rudra all the powers that He becomes the strongest undefeatable and Self Dependent. ******************** In reply to: First read this. Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Yes. He does not yeild, but Rudra Deva does not yield his position of Rudra. That is what is meant here. ****************** You say: “but Rudra Deva does not yield his position of Rudra”. Wow, what does it mean? Do you understand it yourself? You proud knower of Sanskrit? Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Rudra alone yieldeth to no second Rudra alone yieldeth to no second **************** In reply to: RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God I think as usual the translation is wrong. There is no word as self-dependent in this verse. Here is the correct translation. ***************** Be unhappy with your ideas. You think the translations are wrong? Well who cares for your thinking? ****** imaá rudraáya sthirádhanvane gíraH kSipréSave devaáya svadhaávne áSaaLhaaya sáhamaanaaya vedháse tigmaáyudhaaya bharataa shRNótu naH Offer these praises to the divine Rudra, armed with the strong bow and fast-flying arrows, the equipoised, the bestower of food, the invincible, the conqueror, the creator, the wielder of sharp weapons; may he hear our (praises) ************ Your verse is even stronger supporter of Rudra than mine, baby. “----- the invincible, the conqueror, the creator ------“. Nothing more is required. ***************** Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest, all other Devatas(anya devatas except Lord Visnu and Agni Deva, includes Rudra as Rudra is also a devata as mentioned in previous verse) occupy positions inbetween. Case closed. Rudra Deva is lower by this Sruti quoted above and also by Rig Veda 7:40:5 ********** Where is Rudra Deva here? Rudra unleashes the arrow consisting of Agni as the tip and Vishnu as the shaft. Vishnu is Rudra’s lofty arrow Yajur Veda vi. 2. 3. The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, let him shoot it.' Your desperation is showing. As in the case of Devi Sukta where you convert “Ugra” to Rudra, here you insert Rudra, where there is no Rudra. On the other hand. Vishnu Deva is Rudra’s arrow. Do you think others are as senseless as you are? *************** Also it was pointed that Indra was born through Soma. But here Indra is said to be Somapati ie Soma's master. prá sú víshvaan rakSáso dhákSy agne bhávaa yajñaánaam abhishastipaávaa áthaá vaha sómapatiM háribhyaam aatithyám asmai cakRmaa sudaávne 1,076.03 Utterly consume all the ra_ks.asas, Agni, and be the protector of our sacrifices against interruption. Bring hither the guardian of Soma, (Indra), with his steeds, that we may show hospitality to the giver of food. [somapati: a remarkable epithet for Indra (though not mentioned in the text, indicated by reference to haribhya_m, Indra's two steeds]. **************** Again you show your ignorance. The following does not refute that Soma is the father of Indra and Vishnu. Neither it refutes that Vishnu praises and lauds Indra. “3 Burn thou up all the Riksasas, O Agni; ward thou off curses from our sacrifices. Bring hither with his Bays the Lord of Soma: here is glad welcome for the Bounteous Giver.” I have told time and again that you unwittingly bring out the truth. Lord of Soma. Who is Somnath? Yes baby, who is Somnath? Soma is socket of Rudra’s arrow. Visnhu is shaft. Agni is the tip of the arrow. Most potent. Vishnu is the body. And read these to know more about Soma. Soma when purified is the Self of Indra. When Indra becomes Pavanama, who is Self produced. . Book 9 HYMN V Soma- Pavamana 1. ENKINDLED, Pavamana, Lord, sends forth his light on, every side In friendly show, the bellowing Bull. 2 He, Pavamana, Self-produced, speeds onward sharpening his horns: He glitters through the firmament. 7 Both Gods who look on men I call, Celestial Heralds: Indra's Self Is Pavamana, yea, the Bull. Book 9 HYMN VI. Soma Pavamana. 1. SOMA, flow on with pleasant stream, a Bull devoted to the Gods, Our Friend, unto the woollen sieve. 2 Pour hitherward, as Indra's Self, Indu, that gladdening stream of thine,.. AND THROUGH SOMA ONLY INDRA ATTAINS THE ANCIENT, UNDECAYING RUDRA. INDRA IS RUDRA WHEN “HIS MIND PURE AND MEET FOR LAUDS”. Rig Veda Book 6 HYMN XIII. Indra. 1. INDRA, when Soma juices flow, makes his mind pure and meet for lauds. He gains the power that brings success, for great is he. 20 That mind of Rudra, fresh and strong, moves conscious in the ancient ways, With reference whereto the wise have ordered this. So, Indra alone is the foremost deva. This is also the matter of Keno Upanishad. Where he is the first knower of Brahman. *************** In reply to: Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9. a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma. b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma. ----------------------- PLEASE NOTE IT WELL. THOU ART THE PORTION OF INDRA, THE OVERLORDSHIP OF VISNU. AND WHO IS THOU? THOU definitely does not refer to Rudra Deva. THOU here refers to the performer of the sacrifice. The verses here have to be explained in context. Indra is the elder brother of Visnu, ie Vamana avatara. The whole Vedas refers t this Avatara very frequently. Only in this context, this can be explained. *********** So, a sacrificer is portion of Indra, the overlord of Vishnu… Very correct. You have always to insert contexts and you defeat yourself. It does not matter “who thou is?”. What matters is that Indra is Vishnu’s Lord. And when Indra’s mind is purified through Soma, the Indra attains the height of Rudra. ******* Visnu is beginingless. Read the following verses. ********** This I do not deny. Since Rudra is iundecaying, so also Vishnu must be. If Rudra goes then only Vishnu will go. RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas. 10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us. “Undecaying”. You understand? The following is true. Even Gods propitiate Rudra after suffering. But you should not think that Rudra punishes. He does not even know of the events. It is Vishnu, the arrow and Agni, the arrow tip that punish. YV ii. 6. 8. The gods excluded Rudra from the sacrifice; he pierced the sacrifice, the gods gathered round it (saying), 'May it be right for us.' They said, 'Well offered will this be for us, if we propitiate him.' Om Namah Sivayya I tell you. We are in a naive discussion. Devotees who do not realise that the One is another, is no devotee. And can love none. Om Namah bhagavate Shree Vasudevayya Namah Om Namah Sivayya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.29: A person who executes his occupational duty properly for one hundred births becomes qualified to occupy the post of Brahma, and if he becomes more qualified, he can approach Lord Shiva. A person who is directly surrendered to Lord Vishnu, in unalloyed devotional service is immediately promoted to the spiritual planets. Lord Shiva and other demigods attain these planets after the destruction of this material world. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 As always you defeat your cause. You have youself said above: “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognizant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible “. You are really foolish. After fighting for so long, you give a verse which says: “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible”. Do you understand? Vishnu is cognisant of the highest. Do you know what cognizant means. Please look up dictionary. That is why in Bhagavatam Lord Shiva praises Vishnu as “The best Self realized person” Vishnu is cognizant of the highest. Vishnu knows the highest. But who is the highest? Better first see in the dictionary what ‘cognisant’ means. If you wish you may read below. Rest whatever you write contradicts the above. So, what is given below is for the sake of records. Bechara. I pity you. I cannot help laughing here. Emotionally perturbed are you Atanu. Emotional statements and no PramAnAs found here. This is all your personal and your emotional opinions. What makes you think that the highest truth is not Visnu. Who can know the truth better than Visnu HIMSELF. Remember that advaita stands unproven sa per Sruti. So cognizance is accepted here. Yes, I pity you. Where is in Vedas, Rudra Devas birth mentioned? He is undecaying father. Whereas all others have birth Rudra is Pragnya. Where is Rudra mentioned in above verse? Why insert Rudra? Read the verse properly again. You pay very little attention to details. Sign of emotional imbalance or lesser intelligence. 7.099.02 No being that is or that has been born, divine Vis.n.u, has attained the utmost limit of your magnitude by which you have upheld the vast and beautiful heaven, and sustained the eastern horizon of the earth. [Eastern horizon = the entire earth; Vis.n.u's upholding the three worlds has been mentioned more than once; cf. RV. 1.154.4]. ******************** The verse says "No being that is or that has been born". So Rudra Deva had birth or not is immaterial here. You are shameless. When something does not suit your opinion you wish it away by saying either ‘tamasic’ or ‘wrong translation’. That you are a fouler of scriptures is known world over. Reproducing in Sanskrit does not make you a knower of Sanskrit. Rather you act as if you are a pandit, but your logic gives you away. There is nothing wrong in my logic, the mistake lies in your intelligence that shows your lack of understanding and even attention to detail as indicated above that shows here. Your emotional outbursts are also a sign of weakness. Saraswati is VAC. Your imaginations do not create Vedas............. Foolish arguments. Aja Ekapada which is a name of Shiva is the one inside waters and everywhere else. Waters is Goddesses. Extrapolate as you wish and suffer in your mind of doubts. A lying mind does not get peace. Emotional statements and personal opinions. Not a single proof or logic here. Shows that you have no logical arguments and lost your equanimity. Father is Rudra. RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas. 10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us. “Undecaying”. You understand? Proves nothing. Still Rudra is lower to Visnu. Agni vai Avamo Visnuh Paramas. Who is the bolt of Indra. Who is the step of Visnu? YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu This is a clear case of Cheating or omplete lack of capacity to understand anything from Vedas. Atanu you cannot pick some randomn verse from Vedas and claim that they refer to Rudra. In this case it definitely does not refer to Rudra. Plese provide some logic for your conclusion. Foolish. It is ugram. Not Rudra. You show Rudra where there is no Rudra. Your logic gives you away. Being consort of Vishnu why would Lakshmi Devi give Rudra all the powers that He becomes the strongest undefeatable and Self Dependent. Ugra is another name of Rudra. May be you should read my previous explanation when your emotional outbursts and mood swings stop. Ugram, BrahmAnAm etc. means, Rudra, Chaturmukha BrahmA etc. This is very logical in the context. Since Devi is explining her power over chaturmukha BrahmA, she alsomakes her power over Ugra(another name of Rudra) known. “but Rudra Deva does not yield his position of Rudra” Wow, what does it mean? Do you understand it yourself? You proud knower of Sanskrit? Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Rudra alone yieldeth to no second Rudra alone yieldeth to no second The actual tranlation is "Rudra is one, not yielding to second". It simply means as I explained. That position is Rudra's. Rudra is a position an name as well just like Vyasa. Your verse is even stronger baby. “----- the invincible, the conqueror, the creator ------“. Nothing more is required. The same words are used for Visnu, Indra etc. So it means nothing if your imagination thinks somehow only this verse is stronger. The Sruti is clear. Rudra is devata occupying lower position. Read all my verses. Where is Rudra Deva here? Since you agree Rudra is a Deva, Anya devatA(means other devatas except Visnu and agni) in the following verse includes Rudra. Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest, all other Devatas(anya devatas except Lord Visnu and Agni Deva, includes Rudra as Rudra is also a devata as mentioned in previous verse) occupy positions inbetween. Rudra unleashes the arrow consisting of Agni as the tip and Vishnu as the shaft. Vishnu is Rudra’s lofty arrow Yajur Veda vi. 2. 3. The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, let him shoot it.' Your desperation is showing. As in the case of Devi Sukta where you convert “Ugra” to Rudra, here you insert Rudra, where there is no Rudra. On the other hand. Vishnu Deva is Rudra’s arrow. Do you think others are as senseless as you are? If Rudra is so powerful, why he need Visnu in his arrow. The truth is Rudra was not able to do the job by himself. So he seeks assistance of Visnu and even other devetas to kill Tripura. Infact one can see clearly that Rudra deva asks for a boon, immediately in the next verse. Here is the full verse which Atanu conveniently removed to hide his bogus claims. Note the verses in bold below. vi. 2. 3. The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, 'Rudra is cruel, let him shoot it.' He said, 'Let me choose a boon; let me be overlord of animals.' Therefore is Rudra overlord of animals. Pasupati - overlord of animals. Rudra gains this title, because Rudra sought a boon from somebody else. This shows Rudra's subordinate position and nullifies the claims that Rudra does not pray to other Devatas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganeshprasad 0 Report post Posted March 31, 2005 Jai Ganesh Re (As usual I think I am arguing with totally incompetent people, who do not take any sincere attempt to understand the verses. ) Well dear guest you do not have to argue, this is an open forum and you have a choice not to respond to totally incompetent person like me at least I want have to learn your arrogance. Re (Mr. Ganeshprasad, please read the verse proprly. 1. The verse says VAC(Lakshmi Devi) travelsz with Rudras(not Rudra). Whenever Rig Veda wants to refer Rudra Deva, it will name Rudra in singular and not plural. Rudra is not included among Rudras when mentioned in plural. Similarly, Visnu is not included among Adityas. 2. The verse also mentions Vausus, Adityas and VisveDevas. Devi is merely telling about HER powers over Rudras, Vasus, Adityas and Here is the verse for your reference again. aháM rudrébhir vásubhish caraamy ahám aadityaír utá vishvádevaiH ahám mitraáváruNobhaá bibharmy ahám indraagnií ahám ashvínobhaá 10.125.01 I proceed with the Rudras, with the Vasus, with the A_dityas, and with the Vis'vedeva_s; I support both Mitra and Varun.a, Agni and Indra, and the two As'vins.) sorry my mistake I should have said rudras, but since when does traveling with some one equate to power over some one? In my opinion shakti goes with shaktiman purash and that is how in the form of shakti she travels with the gods. Re ((Can you read the original verse and get the true meaning ? Here it is for you again. aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré 10.125.07 I bring forth the paternal (heaven) upon the brow of this (Supreme Being), my birthplace is in the midst of the waters;) On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean. This was your other translation which you originally quoted. Which one is correct?)) ((So tell me who is the father?) ) Surely, you said Vishnu I ask you again who is the father she brings?. Can she call her husband, father? Where else Vishvadeva clearly say who the father is. My home is in water and you draw a conclusion it is Laxmidevi but you would not allow summit which you would find on a mountain as referring to Rudra. Most interesting of all is Vac is mainly associated with Devi Sharasvati and she is also a river but we will not mention that shell we. Re (I bend the bow of Rudra, to slay the destructive enemy of the Bra_hman.as. Here Devi establishes HER superior power over Rudra Deva. After establishing HER superior strength over Rudra Deva) How interesting you form a judgment like this based on your biased opinion. Yes it is true it is the shakti off saktiman purasha who bends the bow, this was the reason I asked you in which form does she travel with this gods and I know you cant say Laxmidevi because it is in the form of shakti that she travels. Re (SHE further says in verse 7(as stated before), that SHE is the creator of Rudra, BrahmA, Rsis, and wise men. ) Now where does it mention of creating? Re (Vaisnavas are truthful unlike deluded shivites who pretend and hide behind faulty advaita theory. Your position holds no water.) Truthfulness is a virtue not a monopoly of any sect; all I see is a slinging match trying to tear each other apart. Jai Shree Krishna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 sorry my mistake I should have said rudras, but since when does traveling with some one equate to power over some one? In my opinion shakti goes with shaktiman purash and that is how in the form of shakti she travels with the gods. Then that may be your opinion. That is all. The Sukta is clear. Devi is telling the reader about HER superior powers. So when SHE says that SHE travels with the Rudras etc., SHE implies power over them, that SHE is the real source of all their powers. Here source means, that SHE is the TRULY powerful and not those Rudras, Adityas etc. Surely, you said Vishnu I ask you again who is the father she brings?. Can she call her husband, father? Where else Vishvadeva clearly say who the father is. Eventhough Laksmi Devi is called wife of Narayana, Narayana is the source or strength of Lakshmi. In GITA, Krishna clearly says that HE is the seed giving father of all. As Narayana is the source of all, HE is also the source of Lakshmi and father too. Second, one must drop the idea of wife meaning sexual relationships here. Both Lakshmi and Narayana are beyond Prakrita. Their bodies are transcendental. The exact word used here pitarAm which means parents or father or ancestors also. Sayana gives the following translation. 10.125.07 I bring forth the paternal (heaven) upon the brow of this (Supreme Being), my birthplace is in the midst of the waters; from thence I spread through all beings, and touch this heaven with my body. The translation could that SHE, DEVI, is the one who takes all our ancestors to the summit(muurdhán) ie Moksha. My home is in water and you draw a conclusion it is Laxmidevi but you would not allow summit which you would find on a mountain as referring to Rudra. Most interesting of all is Vac is mainly associated with Devi Sharasvati and she is also a river but we will not mention that shell we. I have explained ths clearly before. Please read it carefully. Besides Rudra is mentioned explicitly in earlier verse where Devi says that SHE is the one who bends Rudra's bow. This implies DEVI has power over Rudra also. So Rudra is automatically excluded. As for Saraswati, SHE is also excluded as SHE is not waters. She stays in Brahmaloka or Satya Loka. How interesting you form a judgment like this based on your biased opinion. Yes it is true it is the shakti off saktiman purasha who bends the bow, this was the reason I asked you in which form does she travel with this gods and I know you cant say Laxmidevi because it is in the form of shakti that she travels. Lakshmi travels as Lakshmi always. There is no verse to suggest otherwise and doing so would be artificial and a lie. Truthfulness is a virtue not a monopoly of any sect; all I see is a slinging match trying to tear each other apart. Yes truthfulness is a virtue, but it surely does not reside with shivites posing as advaities or advaities. Just the addition of the spurious verses into Rudram non-existent in Taittiriya Samhita shows the dishonest nature and cunning of shivites and advaities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 Since people ask silly questions without putting real effort to know Devi Sukta, I thought to post the verses fully and request Ganeshprasad and others to fully read and try to get the real meaning out. aháM rudrébhir vásubhish caraamy ahám aadityaír utá vishvádevaiH ahám mitraáváruNobhaá bibharmy ahám indraagnií ahám ashvínobhaá 10.125.01 I proceed with the Rudras, with the Vasus, with the A_dityas, and with the Vis'vedeva_s; I support both Mitra and Varun.a, Agni and Indra, and the two As'vins. In the above verse bibharmy means to carry or support. Also caraamy means to pervade, to go along etc. Note the use of bibharmy ie to bear or to support. The intended meaning of the whole verse is therefore to have power over all these devatas. Only the more powerful can bear the powerful. therefore this verse implies superior strength of Devi and advaita has no place here. aháM sómam aahanásam bibharmy aháM tváSTaaram utá puuSáNam bhágam aháM dadhaami dráviNaM havíSmate supraavyè yájamaanaaya sunvaté 10.125.02 I support the foe-destroying Soma, Tvas.t.a_, Pu_s.an and Bhaga; I bestow wealth upon the institutor of the rite offering the oblation, deserving of careful protection, pouring forth the libation. Note the words aháM dadhaami dráviNaM. It means "I bestow wealth". Again Devi makes show of HER power over somebody. aháM raáSTrii saMgámanii vásuunaaM cikitúSii prathamaá yajñíyaanaam taám maa devaá vy àdadhuH purutraá bhuúristhaatraam bhuúry aavesháyantiim 10.125.03 I am the sovereign queen, the collectress of treasures, cognizant (of the Supreme Being), the chief of objects of worship; as such the gods have put me in many places, abiding in manifold conditions, entering into numerous forms. Again Devi explicitly tells that SHE is the sovereign ruler(queen). The sanskrit word is raáSTrii. Again power over some beings. The second part where DEVI is the chief of objects of worship for even the gods is explained. SHE says that Devatas have put her in many places ie devatas have created or established places of worship with Devi as the Deity. máyaa só ánnam atti yó vipáshyati yáH praáNiti yá iiM shRNóty uktám amantávo maáM tá úpa kSiyanti shrudhí shruta shraddhiváM te vadaami 10.125.04 He who eats food (eats) through me; he who sees, who breathes, who hears what is spoken, does so through me; those who are ignorant of me perish; hear you who have hearing, I tell that which is deserving of belief. Her many grreaty powers over all living beings including the great devatas like Rudra, charurmukha BrahmA etc. This will be evident from the immediately following verses. ahám evá svayám idáM vadaami júSTaM devébhir utá maánuSebhiH yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám 10.125.05 I verily of myself declare this which is approved of by both gods and men; whomsoever I will, I render him Ugra(one of the names of Rudra), I make him BrahmA(Chaturmukha), a r.s.i, or a sage. Note the use of word kRNomi. The root is Krit - to create The above translation is not only logically consistent with preious verses, it is consistent with Nirukta as well. Instead if we translate as advaities would like ie (Ugra) as exceedingly angry, it makes no sense. It is established in previous verses that DEVI is making evodent HER powers over devatas like Adityas, Rudras etc. What is so great about making somebody exceedingly angry. We humans do that with each other many times. Besides why should Rsi and sages appear in the same verse along with making somebody exceedingly angry. It makes no sense. it makes every sense when one translates Ugra as another name of Rudra, BrahmA(chaturmukha). This is consistent with the whole subject and etymology also supports this. aháM rudraáya dhánur aá tanomi brahmadvíSe shárave hántavaá u aháM jánaaya samádaM kRNomy aháM dyaávaapRthivií aá vivesha 10.125.06 I bend the bow of Rudra, to slay the destructive enemy of the Bra_hman.as, I wage war with (hostile) men. I pervade heaven and earth. Now devi is explicitly explaining HER power over Rudra too. Just like SHE is the support or bearer od other Devatas, SHE is here the one who gives strength to Rudra, ie since SHE created Rudra(as in previous verse), SHE also maintains Rudra and gives strength to him. Hence SHE is more powerful than Rudra from verse 5 nd 6. aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré táto ví tiSThe bhúvanaánu víshvotaámuúM dyaáM varSmáNópa spRshaami 10.125.07 I bring forth the paternal (heaven) upon the brow of this (Supreme Being)(Moksha is meant here), my birthplace is in the midst of the waters; from thence I spread through all beings, and touch this heaven with my body. Now the paternal(pitáram) can mean our ancestors like BrahmA (who is called grandfather in puranas), Rudra(as father being son of BrahmA in puranas) and all great devatas who created and still support all beings who are subordinate to them. Devi says "aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán". Suve means "to create" or "to bestow". muurdhán means the "highest point" or "summit". The summit is defintely not Kailasa. So what it means is Moksha or atleast Satya Loka, the highest point in Mount Meru as per Puranas. So the meaning is that Devi has the power to reccommend Moksha for even BrahmA, Rudra etc. In previous verses DEVI showed HER soverign power to create BrahmA, Rudra, etc. Then SHE showed HER power to maintain all devatas by pervading them and protecting them though HER strength. In this verse now SHE says that SHE even brings them to moksha. Devis power is phenomenal over even Devatas like BrahmA, Rudra etc. ahám evá vaáta iva prá vaamy aarábhamaaNaa bhúvanaani víshvaa paró divaá pará enaá pRthivyaítaávatii mahinaá sám babhuuva 10.125.08 I breathe forth, like the wind giving form to all created worlds and beings; beyond the heaven, beyond this earth (am I), so vast am I in greatness. This verse is even more phenomenal, in that DEVI says SHE gives FORM to all the creaion and SHE pervades even beyond. Note in the verse 7 where SHE says HER birth place is in the waters. Both BrahmA and Rudra are clearly mentioned in the verses above as subordinate to DEVI. Note the absense of metion of the VISNU anywhere. The conclusion is inescapable for a logical sane person. DEVI is Lakhsmi Devi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 You are deluding yourself. If you had studied Vedas, then you would have known that Rodasi travels with Rudras. And like Brahman, Aditi is ONE. She is all Devis. Yes, without Durga, Shiva will not be Shiva and without Lakshmi Vishnu will not be Vishnu. ******* Rig Veda Visnu the all pervadere: 7.099.01 Expanding with a body beyond all measure, Vis.n.u men comprehend not your magnitude; we know these your two worlds (computing) from the earth, but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible; cf. RV. 10.082.05]. ********************** As always you defeat your cause. Your translation: “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognizant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible“. “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible”. Vishnu is cognisant of the highest. Vishnu is cognizant of the highest. Vishnu knows the highest. But who is the highest? Om Namah Bhagavate Shree Vasudevayya Namah Om Namah Sivayyaa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.29: A person who executes his occupational duty properly for one hundred births becomes qualified to occupy the post of Brahma, and if he becomes more qualified, he can approach Lord Shiva. A person who is directly surrendered to Lord Vishnu, in unalloyed devotional service is immediately promoted to the spiritual planets. Lord Shiva and other demigods attain these planets after the destruction of this material world. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 Bhagavatam 23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. 24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. 31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. Lord Shiva himself is the destroyer of material planes. He is the wielder of arrow called Vishnu and material plane never touches him. Do you not know the trident bearer -- the controller of Gunas. You may be talking about someone called Shiva and not Lord Shiva. ******* Rig Veda Visnu the all pervadere: 7.099.01 Expanding with a body beyond all measure, Vis.n.u men comprehend not your magnitude; we know these your two worlds (computing) from the earth, but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible; cf. RV. 10.082.05]. ********************** “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognizant of the highest“. “but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible”. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 ************ If Rudra is so powerful, why he need Visnu in his arrow. The truth is Rudra was not able to do the job by himself. So he seeks assistance of Visnu and even other devetas to kill Tripura. ********** If Vishnu is so powerful then why he needs Rudra? You are dumb to ask such questions? ********************* Infact one can see clearly that Rudra deva asks for a boon, immediately in the next verse. Here is the full verse which Atanu conveniently removed to hide his bogus claims. Note the verses in bold below. vi. 2. 3. The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, 'Rudra is cruel, let him shoot it.' He said, 'Let me choose a boon; let me be overlord of animals.' Therefore is Rudra overlord of animals. Pasupati - overlord of animals. Rudra gains this title, because Rudra sought a boon from somebody else. This shows Rudra's subordinate position and nullifies the claims that Rudra does not pray to other Devatas. ********** Who are somebody else? YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods This does not show any subordinate position since same Yajur Veda says: Rudra yieldeth to no second. And Rig Veda says: invincible Rudra. You are dumb. There is no mention of praying. He chooses a boon for himself. There is none second to Him. All gods are him alone. YV iv. 5. 9 p Homage to you, sparkling hearts of the gods Rudra is the heart – the Self of Gods. Rudra asking for a boon is all Gods asking for a boon. And for your help the following is provided. Brihad Up. I-iv-10: This (self) was indeed Brahman in the beginning. It knew only Itself as, ‘I am Brahman’. Therefore It became all. And whoever among the gods knew It also became That; and the same with sages and men. ---------- And to this day whoever in like manner knows It as, ‘I am Brahman’, becomes all this (universe). Even the gods cannot prevail against him, for he becomes their self. While he who worships another god thinking, ‘He is one, and I am another’, does not know. He is like an animal to the gods. As many animals serve a man, so does each man serve the gods. Even if one animal is taken away, it causes anguish, what should one say of many animals ? Therefore it is not liked by them that men should know this. This is what Pasu is. And for you Pasupati is there, whether you like it or not. See above that Gods do not like you to know the truth. And it is wish of Gods that you remain a Pasu. Do not think yourself as a non-pasu. And do not forget That Indra is Lord of Visnu. Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9. a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma. b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma. Do not forget that Indra attains Rudrahood only when when Soma juices flow and his mind becomes pure Do not also forget that Vishnu knows the highest. . And: SU III, 3-4 i) 3. On all sides eye, on all sides face, on all sides arms, on all sides feet, he, God, the One, creates heaven and earth, forging them together with arms and wings. 4. He who is source and origin of the Gods, the Lord of all, Rudra, the mighty sage, who produced in ancient days the Golden Germ-- may he endow us with purity of mind! Your futile efforts do not gel with such Shruti. And remind you He is not Pasupati alone. But He is also cipivista. YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage YV iv. 5. 5. a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra. b Homage to Çarva and to the lord of cattle. c Homage to the blue-necked one, and to the white-throated. d Homage to the wearer of braids, and to him of shaven hair. e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow. Om Namah Sivayya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 You are cognizant that Atanu is emotional, so You are Emotional. That is your logic. You require treatment. Do not you know that all these logic of you is on the net? Man use such logic in privacy. **************** Read the verse properly again. You pay very little attention to details. Sign of emotional imbalance or lesser intelligence. 7.099.02 No being that is or that has been born, ----. RV. 1.154.4]. The verse says "No being that is or that has been born". So Rudra Deva had birth or not is immaterial here. ******************** Your language, your mind and your translations are all gring. It is not ‘No being that is or that has been born’ but is ‘None who is born or being born’ Book 7 HYMN XCIX. Visnu. 1. MEN come not nigh thy majesty who growest beyond all bound and measure with thy body. Both thy two regions of the earth, O Visnu, we know: thou God, knowest the highest also. 2 None who is born or being born, God Visnu, hath reached the utmost limit of thy grandeur. The vast high vault of heaven hast thou supported, and fixed earth's eastern pinnacle securely. And ‘we know God, thou knowest the highest also’. Against this you say: **************** I cannot help laughing here. Emotionally perturbed are you Atanu. Emotional statements and no PramAnAs found here. This is all your personal and your emotional opinions. What makes you think that the highest truth is not Visnu. Who can know the truth better than Visnu HIMSELF. Remember that advaita stands unproven sa per Sruti. So cognizance is accepted here. *************** Now, you make me guffao not merely laugh. You are talking Advaita now. "The knower of Brahman becomes a Brahman." Since you know me as an emotionally perturbed person, so you become an emotionally perturbed person. This is your logic above. You are not merely perturbed, you are far more dangerous. You may need treatment. When I say that I know that you need treatment, I do not accept that the knower of That is That. Though you are upholding Advaita here: The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman. *************** In reply to: -- Father is Rudra. RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas. 10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us. “Undecaying”. You understand? -- Proves nothing. Still Rudra is lower to Visnu. Agni vai Avamo Visnuh Paramas. ************* I know, to a dead and closed mind no proof is proof. Rudra becomes Agni and Rudra is not Agni. YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in Agni, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage You are the cheat. ****************** In reply to: -- Who is the bolt of Indra. Who is the step of Visnu? YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu - This is a clear case of Cheating or omplete lack of capacity to understand anything from Vedas. Atanu you cannot pick some randomn verse from Vedas and claim that they refer to Rudra. In this case it definitely does not refer to Rudra. Plese provide some logic for your conclusion. ******************* . What is logic to you? Whatever does not suit you is wrong or tamasic. But you are showing your desperation. So, you accept that ‘someone’ else is the bolt of Indra and ‘someone’ else is the step of Vishnu. Well that is all. I need not argue as to who it is (though I know that it is Agni who has attained Rudra hood because of sacrifices). I do not need to compare the infinite beings and lower myself. The case is settled. Someone is the step of Vishnu and bolt of Indra. And Remember Indra is overlord of Vishnu. Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9. a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma. b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma. Falsity does not hold for long. Visnu himself as Rudra arrow clears it away. Om Namah Bhagavate Shree Vasudevayya Namah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 Supremacy of Vishnu. Only those who have doubts will create such posts. As if Vishnu's greatness depend on such proclamations. Such posts are made by immature who do not believe in one god and thereby effectively lower dominion of the god. YV iv. 4. 9. (Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh's altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh's altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; --------- God is one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 ****** Do you think Rudra Deva is in Samudra ? Definitely not. Only Visnu is in Samudra. Get it ******** This guy is tenacious. He will not bend but he will break. YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage YV iv. 5. 5. a Homage to Bhava and to Rudra. b Homage to Çarva and to the lord of cattle. c Homage to the blue-necked one, and to the white-throated. d Homage to the wearer of braids, and to him of shaven hair. e Homage to him of a thousand eyes, and to him of a hundred bows. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow. h Homage to the short, and to the dwarf. i Homage to the great, and to the stronger. k Homage to him who hath waxed, and to the waxing. I Homage to the chief, and to the first. m Homage to the swift, and to the active. n Homage to the rapid, and to the hasty. o Homage to him of the wave, and to the roaring. p Homage to him of the stream, and to him of the island. Lord Rudra is all. Do not defame Vedas, you pretender. Get it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 Namaskar. Well done. ****************** The actual tranlation is "Rudra is one, not yielding to second". ******************* Wow. What a beautiful translation. This reminds me of Svet Upanishad. Thank you for the truth. "Rudra is one, not yielding to second" Chapter III III. 1 The non—dual Ensnarer rules by His powers. Remaining one and the same, He rules by His powers all the worlds during their manifestation and continued existence. They who know this become immortal. III. 2 Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes them back into Himself at the end of time. IV. 2 That Supreme Self is Agni (Fire); It is Aditya (Sun); It is Vayu (Wind); It is Chandrama (Moon). That Self is the luminous stars; It is Hiranyagarbha; It is water; It is Virat. For you baby: IV. 8 Of what use are the Vedas to him who does not know that indestructible Substance, that akasa—like Brahman, which is greater than the unmanifest and wherein the Vedas and all the gods are sheltered? Only those who know It attain bliss. ******* It simply means as I explained. That position is Rudra's. Rudra is a position an name as well just like Vyasa. *********** It simply means that you have decided to be blind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 his guy is tenacious. He will not bend but he will break. YV v. 5. 9. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage When one is emotionally broken through strong logic, such emaotional statements are expected. Nobody has answered properly with logic to my quotes from the Sruti. There are many points proving that Rudra Deva worships. One verse directly alluding Rudra worshipping Lord Visnu (Rig Veda 7:40:5) for gaining power. Another verse in Yajur Veda which both emotionally disturbed Atanu and this stranger cannot answer properly. This is where Rudra asks for a boon from other Devatas to gain a name and position called Pasupati. It is only after gaining this boon that Rudra enters into all living beings(Pashu) as their ruler(Pati). There is no logical answer given by these overzealous Shivites. You guys conveniently forget or sideline it. It is not easy to sideline this issue. Read it again Yajur Veda 4:2:3 The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' [1] 'Rudra', they said, 'Rudra is cruel, let him shoot it.' He said, 'Let me choose a boon; let me be overlord of animals.' Therefore is Rudra overlord of animals. The correspoding verses from Taittiriya Samhita are váraM vrnA ahám evá pashUnAm ádhipatir asAnIti tásmAd rudráH pashUnAm ádhipatis. The sanskrit is very clear. Atanu asked who are the somebody. Somebody refers to the Devatas that made the weapon with Lord Visnu's energy and Agni's eenergy. To those same devatas Rudra asks for varam(take a look at the sanskrit verses). This automatically implies that Rudra sought a boon from Devatas by worshipping them. Only Visnu has that capacity to grant boons for Shiva. Although Visnu is not mentioned explicitly, one thing is clear. Rudra or Shiva asked for a boon by worshipping some other Devata. This is 100% clear from the Sruti. Again Devi Sukta was very logically explained. There is no logical refutation found here. Instead I get a load of irrelevant verses from Sruti which proves nothing against the Sruti verses I quoted. So I have decided to post my evidences from Sruti logically and consistently to show others "Supremacy of Lord Visnu". Let the readers decide. Atanu please do not post irrelevant verses and make a trash out f this post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 ****** ahám evá svayám idáM vadaami júSTaM devébhir utá maánuSebhiH yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám 10.125.05 I verily of myself declare this which is approved of by both gods and men; whomsoever I will, I render him Ugra(one of the names of Rudra), I make him BrahmA(Chaturmukha), a r.s.i, or a sage. ********** This is another translation: 5 1, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome. I make the man I love exceeding mighty, make him a sage, a Rsi, and a Brahman. 6 I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion. I rouse and order battle for the people, and I have penetrated Earth and Heaven. "I make the man I love exceeding mighty", there is no Rudra here. This is a foolish extrapolation. Ugra is made Rudra. And on this extrapolation follows further blasephemy. "6 I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion." If I were to say that "I fill water for my Guru so that he performs his Puja", will that make me a guru of my Guru? And based on these assumptions he repeats untold times like below: ************ Her many grreaty powers over all living beings including the great devatas like Rudra, charurmukha BrahmA etc. This will be evident from the immediately following verses. ************* And the same verse is again repeated like it is a new evidence. This person builds air castles. This is like black magic. He is confused between the doer and His powers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 To your following: ************** Now why Rudra Deva was allowed to drink with Vayu Deva, is because Vayu Deva wanted Rudra to gain glory out of Vayu's mercy. ***************** I asked: “where is this claimed in the verse?” There was no reply. You said: **************** This verse explains why Vayu Deva was not affected by poison as much as Rudra Deva. ************** I asked: Show us where is this said? Where it is said that Rudra was much affected and Vayu was not as much affected. There was no reply. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 Supremacy of Vishnu. Only those who have doubts will create such posts. As if Vishnu's greatness depend on such proclamations. Such posts are made by immature who do not believe in one god and thereby effectively lower dominion of the god. Advaities are funny. When they have no logic, they post nonsense. Ofcourse Visnu's greatness does not depend on anyone. But Vaishnavas proclaim and break FALSE claims of shivites and advaities, because it is DharmA to proclaim TRUTH and smash falsehood like shivism and advaita. Every Vaishnava will vehemently oppose Falsehood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 ***** But Vaishnavas proclaim and break FALSE claims of shivites and advaities,******** I do not know who is advaites? Is he a relative of Advani? Or who is shivites? One thing is clear that you are broken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 ***** Atanu asked who are the somebody. Somebody refers to the Devatas that made the weapon with Lord Visnu's energy and Agni's eenergy ********* I think you are out of your mind. Elsewhere citing a verse you said "Vishnu is parama and Agni is Lowest". And there you equated Agni to Rudra. Now you exclude Rudra and say : Devatas that made the weapon with Lord Visnu's energy and Agni's eenergy. And by the way do you know that all Devas are also Pasus, being depicted as Bulls. RV Book 1 HYMN XLIII. Rudra. 5 He shines in splendour like the Sun, refulgent as bright gold is he, The good, the best among the Gods. 7 O Soma set thou upon us the glory of a hundred men, The great renown of mighty chiefs. 8 Let not malignities, nor those who trouble Soma, hinder us. Indu, give us a share of strength. See above that Rudra is Soma and Indu (Indra) also. The good the best among the gods. He has imperial power over heavenly beings and he is prayed so that his bright arrow (AgnaVishnu) does not injure. RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call. 2 He through his lordship thinks in all things and beings on the earth, on heavenly beings through his high imperial power. Please come willingly to our doors that gladly welcome You (O Rudra), and heal all sickness, in our families. 3 May thy bright arrow which, shot down by thee from heaven, flieth upon the earth, pass us uninjured by. Thou, very gracious God, bast thousand medicines: inflict no evil on our sons or progeny. You have made an exhibit of yourself. I genuinely think you need some rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 This is another translation: "I make the man I love exceeding mighty", there is no Rudra here. This is a foolish extrapolation. Ugra is made Rudra. And on this extrapolation follows further blasephemy. Ugra is another name of RudrA. The reason for this is logically explained in previous post exclusively devoted to Ambrani Sukta. Please read it and do not keep asking the same questions. If you do not accept my logic there, then say why logically you do not accept that translation. Do not simply take some translation, and say that yours is only right. Your translation is wrong for the reason stated in my previous post. It does not have a continuity of thought process that Devi wants to convey. "6 I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion." If I were to say that "I fill water for my Guru so that he performs his Puja", will that make me a guru of my Guru? And based on these assumptions he repeats untold times like below: That is not the intent Devi is aking apparent. Devi clearly says SHE has power over all of them. Besides the verse 6 was translated wrongly again. Here is the right translation here. (I noted even English translation of Sayana's commentary I posted is wrong) aháM rudraáya dhánur aá tanomi brahmAdvíSe shárave hántavaá u aháM jánaaya samádaM kRNomy aháM dyaávaapRthivií aá vivesha Right translation : I bend the bow(dhánur) and hurl arrows(shárave) towards(aá tanomi) RudrA, the one who insulted BrahmA(brahmAdvíSe), in order to slay him(hántavaá u). I wage war with (hostile) beings (jánaaya means any living being). I pervade heaven and earth. Reason why this translation is right: rudraáya - This is a Dative Case. Dative cases are Nouns indirectly affected by the verb ie The Dative case is chiefly used to indicate the person for whom (that is, for whose advantage or disadvantage) an action happens or a quality exists. What is the action or verb here ? It is If the bow(dhánur) belongs to Rudra DevA, then the word should be rudrasya, which is genitive case. Genitive cases indicate possession of something or someone. In the above verse it is Dative case. The other point is, in the original sanskrit verse, brahmAdvíSe is the word used, NOT brahmadvíSe. Note the difference clearly. It is "BrahmA + dviSe" and NOT "Brahma + dviSe". So the verse points to Chaturmukha BrahmA and not to Brahma (BhagavAn). Who is the one who insulted BrahmA. PurAnAs talk about Lord RudrA cutting one of the heads of BrahmA. Therefore it is clear that Devi is referring to slaying of RudrA here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 1, 2005 I think you are out of your mind. Elsewhere citing a verse you said "Vishnu is parama and Agni is Lowest". And there you equated Agni to Rudra. Who equated Agni and Rudra anywhere. It is the advaities that dis that. I said anya devata means devatas except Agni and Visnu and that they occupy positions inbetween Agni(lowest) and Visnu(Highest). So Rudra, devata, occupies position inbetween. Do not worry about me. I am not broken. If you have anything logical against my points, please provide before you make trash of this post. This is a request again. Now you exclude Rudra and say : Devatas that made the weapon with Lord Visnu's energy and Agni's eenergy I did not say that pal. The Sruti is clear. Yajur Veda clearly states that Devatas made an arrow with Visnu's energy, Agni's energy etc. Then Devatas asked among themselves (May include Rudra) who will shoot the arrow. They decide that Rudra should do it. Then Rudra asks for a BOON (Vara). Sanskrit verse is provided in my previous post. Please think why Rudra needs a boon here, if Rudra is so powerful. The word used is VarA. Rudra has to get it from someone superior than to himself. This superior power is no other than Visnu, the GOD of all Devatas including Rudra. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
