Guest guest Report post Posted March 26, 2005 7:40:5 asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat Traslation: word by word: asyá = IDAM - All these devásya - belonging to HIM miiLhúSo - the desires of the devotees avayaáH - come down Visnor - Visnu eSásya - controller prabhRthé - offering havírbhiH - in sacrifices vidé - Knowing this hí - on account of rudró - Rudra Deva rudríyam mahitváM - Rudra-strenth or Rudra glory yaasiSTáM - come vartír - abode ashvinau - two asvini brothers íraavat - full of all provisions like food etc. Full Translation: I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya). On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strenth(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothres have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food. The translation is 100 % clear to all of us with common sense. Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest, this one(tad - meaning 'this Visnu') who is the antaratma of all other anya devatas. Note the use of anya devatas when refering to Lord Visnu. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 26, 2005 Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA The above verse could also be translated as follows. Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest. All other devatas occupy poistions inbetween. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rajashekhar 0 Report post Posted March 26, 2005 [Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest, this one(tad - meaning 'this Visnu') who is the antaratma of all other anya devatas. ] I think most people (like me) who are trained in Vedas agree that Agni is the 'first' (not lowest) and Vishnu is the best god, according to the imaginations of the old seers. This is why Rudra Chamaka starts with 'Agnaavishnoo Sajosemaavardhanti...' But Shiva is not a god. Shiva is the Supreme Reality, as portrayed by the Shaivites. Which is why, Shiva's name (or you can say Rudra's name) does not appear once in the Chamaka. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 26, 2005 I think most people (like me) who are trained in Vedas agree that Agni is the 'first' (not lowest) and Vishnu is the best god, according to the imaginations of the old seers. This is why Rudra Chamaka starts with 'Agnaavishnoo Sajosemaavardhanti...' But Shiva is not a god. Shiva is the Supreme Reality, as portrayed by the Shaivites. Which is why, Shiva's name (or you can say Rudra's name) does not appear once in the Chamaka. Did you read my explanation on 7:40:5 It clearly says Rudra Deva got his powers by worshipping Visnu. All your speculation has no value against Sruti. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 26, 2005 Rig Veda 10:125 yaṃ kāmaye taṃ-tamughraṃ kṛṇomi tambrahmāṇaṃ taṃ ṛṣiṃ taṃ sumedhām || ahaṃ rudrāya dhanurā tanomi brahmadviṣe śarave hantavāu | This is Ambhrani Sukta from Rig Veda. Here Lakshmi devi says, I make whomever I like Ugra (ie Siva), BrahmA (Chaturmukha), Rsi or a wise man. I bend the the bow of Rudra to slay the enemies of GOD(Brahma not ChaturmukhaBrahmA). Here Devi clearly declares she makes whom she likes as Rudra, BrahmA etc. So it is amply clear that Rudra Deva is not only "not Supreme" but also lower in position to Lakshmi. Devi also says SHE is the strength of Rudra because SHE says "I bend the bow of Rudra". ahaṃ suve pitaramasya mūrdhan mama yonirapsvantaḥ samudre Here Devi clearly declares that her HOME is in the waters. This clearly shows that this is Lakshmi Devi, whose Lord is n the waters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 26, 2005 I think most people (like me) who are trained in Vedas agree that Agni is the 'first' (not lowest) and Vishnu is the best god, 'ava' means either farthest or lowest not first. 'Param' undoubtedly means highest and 'highest' means nothing is equal or above it. In Vedas Rudra is also a Devata. Besides 7:40:5 clearly says that Rudra worshipped Visnu and that is why he is Rudra. Case closed. Besides Rudra is lower in position to Lakshmi Devi as per Amnbhrani Sukta of Rig Veda. In addition we have the story of hAlahAla VishA confirmed here in Rig Veda, only differently. vaayúr asmaa úpaamanthat pináSTi smaa kunannamaá keshií viSásya paátreNa yád rudréNaápibat sahá Vayu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend, When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, poison from the cup. This is the story where Vayu had to gring the poison from the ocean for Rudra Deva as Rudra himself was not able to gring the poison or digest it. So Vayu Deva had to grind it for Rudra deva and also drink a major portion of this poison while giving only a small portion to Rudra Deva. So we can see here that Rudra Deva occupies a lower position with respect to Vayu Deva as well. So how can one compare Rudra Deva to Visnu, who is higher to Vayu, Higher to BrahmA and Higher even to Lakshmi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 26, 2005 Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda is in 10:136:7 Thsi sukta is the Sukta about hAlahAla Visha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 26, 2005 Rig Veda 10.082.03 yó naH pitaá janitaá yó vidhaataá dhaámaani véda bhúvanaani víshvaa yó devaánaaM naamadhaá éka evá táM samprashnám bhúvanaa yanty anyaá He who is our preserver, our parent, the creator (of all), who knows our abodes (and knows) all beings, who is the name-giver of the gods-- he is one; other beings come to him to inquire. 10.082.06 tám íd gárbham prathamáM dadhra aápo yátra devaáH samágachanta víshve ajásya naábhaav ádhy ékam árpitaM yásmin víshvaani bhúvanaani tasthúH The waters verily first retained the embryo in which all the gods were aggregated, single deposited on the navel of the unborn (creator), in which all beings abide. If one does analysis of the Visvakarma Sikta quoted above, it is clear the entity spoken of here is the Supreme Brahman(Narayana or Visnu). Why ? Because it is clear from verse 6 where it is said of the whole creation resting on Unborn's Navel. This is the classic mark of Anatasayana ie Lord Visnu on Adi sesa from whose navel the creation arose. Further it is clearly said in verse 3 that HE(Narayana) alone is the Deities' name giver and HE(Narayana) alone is the ONE whom the Deities seek for advice. There is no talk of Rudra deva or any anya devata here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 27, 2005 DEFECTS IN RUDRA DEVA Rig Veda 7:21:5 ná yaatáva indra juujuvur no ná vándanaa shaviSTha vedyaábhiH sá shardhad aryó víSuNasya jantór maá shishnádevaa ápi gur RtáM naH Let not th ra_ks.asas, Indra, do us harm; let not the evil spirits do harm to our progeny, most powerful (Indra); let the sovereign lord, (Indra), exert himself (in the restraint) of disorderly beings, so that the unchaste may not disturb our rite. [Let not the ra_ks.asas: na vandana vedyabhih = vandana_ni, ra_ks.a_m.si, prajabhyah; the unchaste: s'is.nadevah, abrahmacharya ityarthah (Yaska 4.19); or, may be those who hold the lin:ga for a deity]. Rigveda 10:99:3 sá vaájaM yaátaápaduSpadaa yán svàrSaataa pári Sadat saniSyán anarvaá yác chatádurasya védo ghnáñ chishnádevaaM+ abhí várpasaa bhuút Going to the battle, marching with easy gait, desiring the spoil, he set himself to the acquisition of all (wealth). Invincible, destroying the phallus-worshippers, he won by his prowess whatever wealth (was concealed in the city) with the hundred gates. [Phallus-worshippers: s'is'nadeva_n is a tatpurus.a compound; hence, the meaning would perhaps be: incontinent or licentious]. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 27, 2005 ********************** Rig Veda 10:125 -- yaṃ kāmaye taṃ-tamughraṃ kṛṇomi tambrahmāṇaṃ taṃ ṛṣiṃ taṃ sumedhām || ahaṃ rudrāya dhanurā tanomi brahmadviṣe śarave hantavāu | -- This is Ambhrani Sukta from Rig Veda. Here Lakshmi devi says, I make whomever I like Ugra (ie Siva), BrahmA (Chaturmukha), Rsi or a wise man. I bend the the bow of Rudra to slay the enemies of GOD (Brahma not ChaturmukhaBrahmA). Here Devi clearly declares she makes whom she likes as Rudra, BrahmA etc. So it is amply clear that Rudra Deva is not only "not Supreme" but also lower in position to Lakshmi. Devi also says SHE is the strength of Rudra because SHE says "I bend the bow of Rudra". ************************************** About a year and half back also these verses were being bandied about foolishly. The Devi sukta you have quoted is shown below almost in full. This is on VAC, the first born of truth. Yes, she makes the man she loves exceedingly powerful by joining HIM and giving Him all her powers. And the loved man is Rudra. What makes you think this is Lakshmi Devi. Why does then she love another man called Rudra when she is consort of Vishnu? Or Rudra himself is Vishnu? You say Devi is strength of Rudra. Yes, that is true. All Devas and Devis are his strength alone. Book 10 HYMN CXXV. VAC 1. I TRAVEL with the Rudras and the Vasus, with the Adityas and All-Gods I wander. I hold aloft Varuna and Mitra, Indra and Agni, and the Pair of Asvins. 5 1, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome. I make the man I love exceeding mighty; make him a sage, a Rsi, and a Brahman. 6 I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion. I rouse and order battle for the people, and I have penetrated Earth and Heaven. 7 On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean. Thence I extend o'er all existing creatures, and touch even yonder heaven with my forehead. 8 I breathe a strong breath like the wind and tempest, the while I hold together all existence. Beyond this wide earth and beyond the heavens I have become so mighty in my grandeur. SEE THAT VAC HOLDS ALOFT EVEN LORD INDRA WHO IS VISHNU’S OVERLORD. Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9. a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma. b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma. ----------------------- PLEASE NOTE IT WELL. THOU ART THE PORTION OF INDRA, THE OVERLORDSHIP OF VISNU. AND WHO IS THOU? AND IN THE LIGHT OF ABOVE FACT THAT INDRA IS THE OVERLORD OF VISNU, READ THE FOLLOWING THREE VERSES. Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra. -------- 27 When Visnu, through thine energy strode wide those three great steps, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on. Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra. 1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise. 9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight. RV Book 10 HYMN CXTII. Indra. 1. THE Heavens and the Earth accordant with all Gods encouraged graciously that vigorous might of his. When he came showing forth his majesty and power, he drank of Soma juice and waxed exceeding strong. 2 This majesty of his, Visnu extols and lauds, making the stalk that gives the meath flow forth with might VISHNU THROUGH INDRA’S ENERGY CREATES THE SPACE. HE IS ALL PERVADING THOUGHT. AND DIVINE MIND IS THE SOURCE OF THOUGHT. VISHNU SINGS, PRAISES AND LAUDS INDRA WHO IS VISHNU’S OVERLORD. YOUR EGO WILL BE BROKEN. I WILL NOW GIVE YOU A STILL BETTER DEVI SUKTA. YOU WILL KNOW WHY ADITI HOLDS ALOFT ALL DEVAS, EARTH, HEAVEN, SON AND FATHER? SINCE SHE IS ALL OF THEM. Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas. 10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born. ADITI, THE ADVAITAM IS ALL -- THE MOTHER AND THE SIRE AND SON, ALL GODS, ALL THAT HATH BEEN BORN AND SHALL BE BORN. Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas 9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard. 11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise. BUT ALL GODS, INCLUDING ADITI AND VISHNU MERIT AND CLAIM PRAISE ON ACCOUNT OF THESE SONGS WHICH ARE IN PRAISE OF SELF BRIGHT AUSPICIOUS RUDRA ******************************* In reply to: -- 7:40:5 asyá devásya miiLhúSo vayaá víSNor eSásya prabhRthé havírbhiH vidé hí rudró rudríyam mahitváM yaasiSTáM vartír ashvinaav íraavat -- word by word: asyá = IDAM - All these, devásya - belonging to HIM, miiLhúSo - the desires of the devotees, avayaáH - come down, Visnor – Visnu, eSásya – controller, prabhRthé – offering, havírbhiH - in sacrifices, vidé - Knowing this, hí - on account of, rudró - Rudra Deva, rudríyam mahitváM - Rudra-strenth or Rudra glory yaasiSTáM – come, vartír – abode, ashvinau - two asvini brothers, íraavat - full of all provisions like food etc. Full Translation: I get my desires granted, by offering in sacrifices ( ie worshipping) to that Visnu, ishwara (controller), who is present in all these(asyA) devatas (devAsya). On account of knowing this (Vide hi), Rudra Deva(Rudro) gained his Rudra-Strenth(Rudriyam mahitvam). The Ashvini brothres have come to our abode with abundant sacrifical food. The translation is 100 % clear to all of us with common sense. ************************** First read this. Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God Rig veda 7:46 7.046.02 He is known by his rule over those of terrestrial birth, by his sovereignty over celestial beings; protecting our progeny, Rudra, propitiating you (by praise), come to our dwellings, and be to them a guardian against disease. SO RUDRA IS THE SELF-DEPENDENT GOD WHO YIELDETH TO NO SECOND AND WHO HAS SOVEREIGNTY OVER TERRESTRIAL AND CELESTIAL BEINGS Your 100% clear translation is clearly 100% wrong and against common sense. Try to fool others who do not read in full. "rudriyam mahitvam" means Rudra deva's glory or strength. So, Visnu is Rudra Devas glory or strength and I accept this. There is no question of Rudra worshipping a second. In 7:40:5, Visnu is propitiated by sages for being Rudra’s Rudra power. That’s all. The one who yieldeth to no second and who is self dependent does not need to worship a second. You disburser of profanity and falsifier of scripture; Bhagwan does not worship anyone. Saying so is blasphemy. Visnu and Indra (Adityas) have birth from Soma. Whereas Rudra is self existent, undefeatable, cipivista, self dependent, ruler of earthly and celestial beings and undecaying and Sarveswara, who yields to no second. SOMA-PAVAMANA IS FATHER OF INDRA AND VISNU RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana 4 Flow for prosperity and constant Vigour, flow on for happiness and high perfection. This is the wish of these friends assembled: this is my wish, O Soma Pavamana. 5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu. AND ADITYAS ARE BRIGHT DUE TO THE GRACE OF SOMA-RUDRA. Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10. Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. RUDRA IS SELF DEPENDENT GOD RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts, The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call. SIVA RUDRA ALONE ASSUMES THE NAMES OF BRAHMA, VISNU AND MAHESVARA Bhagavatam 23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. 24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. 31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. RUDRA IS THE FATHER RV Book 6 HYMN XLIX. Visvedevas. 10 Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father. Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call especially as the Sage impels us. AND WHAT OF MORTALS LIKE GUEST HERE EVEN GODS FORGET AND INSULT RUDRA. THAT IS THE NATURE OF EGO AND MIND YV ii. 6. 8. The gods excluded Rudra from the sacrifice; he pierced the sacrifice, the gods gathered round it (saying), 'May it be right for us.' They said, 'Well offered will this be for us, if we propitiate him.' RUDRA IS AGNI AND HE IS THE BOLT OF INDRA AND HE IS THE STEP OF VISNU. YV v. 4. 3. The fire is Rudra; he is born then when he is completely piled up; ---------- YV v. 4. 10. The fire is Rudra, and it is as if one stirs up a sleeping lion. YV v. 5. 7. The fire is Rudra, his are three missiles, one that comes straight on, one that strikes transversely, and one that follows up. YV i. 8. 15. a Thou art the bolt of Indra, slaying foes; with thee may he slay his foe. c Thou art the stepping of Visnu, thou art the step of Visnu, thou art the stride of Visnu AND VISNU WHO IS ALL PERVADING CIPIVISTA IS NONE OTHER THAN RUDRA Yajur Veda iv. 5. 5. f Homage to him who haunteth the mountains, and to Çipivista. g Homage to the most bountiful, and to the bearer of the arrow. Yajur Veda v. 5. 9. -------. i The Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, the Rudra that hath entered all beings, to that Rudra be homage For all others (who wish to abide by Rig Veda), I cite the following. RV II, hymn 33 4 Let us not anger thee with worship, Rudra, ill praise, Strong God! or mingled invocation. ************************************* Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 In reply to: -- Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA -- Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest, this one (tad - meaning 'this Visnu') who is the antaratma of all other anya devatas. Note the use of anya devatas when refering to Lord Visnu. ************************************ What Rajashekhar Ji said was correct. Rudra is not Deva. He is Maha Deva. This refers to Rudra’s arrow that he shoots to destroy Trpipura asura – the three bodies of men. The socket of the bow is Soma. The shaft is Vishnu and the tip is Agni. YV vi. 2. 3. The Asuras had three citadels; the lowest was of iron, then there was one of silver, then one of gold. The gods could not conquer them; they sought to conquer them by siege; therefore they say--both those who know thus and those who do not--'By siege they conquer great citadels.' They made ready an arrow, Agni as the point, Soma as the socket, Visnu as the shaft. They said, 'Who shall shoot it?' 'Rudra', they said. ******************* In addition we have the story of hAlahAla VishA confirmed here in Rig Veda, only differently. Vayu Sukta of Rig Veda is in 10:136:7 vaayúr asmaa úpaamanthat pináSTi smaa kunannamaá keshií viSásya paátreNa yád rudréNaápibat sahá Vayu hath churned for him: for him he poundeth things most hard to bend, When he with long loose locks hath drunk, with Rudra, poison from the cup. This is the story where Vayu had to gring the poison from the ocean for Rudra Deva as Rudra himself was not able to gring the poison or digest it. So Vayu Deva had to grind it for Rudra deva and also drink a major portion of this poison while giving only a small portion to Rudra Deva. ********************* “This is the story where Vayu had to gring the poison from the ocean for Rudra Deva as Rudra himself was not able to gring the poison or digest it”. So we can see here that Rudra Deva occupies a lower position with respect to Vayu Deva as well. **************** What is gring by the way? Who is this childish person? He is insulting father of all. My legs give me mobility, so they are superior to me? Shiva is Lord of the great elements: Ether, Vayu, Agni, Water, And Earth. He is Bhooth Nath in addition to Isana. This person says: “This is the story where Vayu had to gring the poison from the ocean for Rudra Deva as Rudra himself was not able to gring the poison or digest it. So Vayu Deva had to grind it for Rudra deva and also drink a major portion of this poison while giving only a small portion to Rudra Deva”. Rudra was not able to gring it. Then he was not able to digest so he took a small portion and Vayu took the most. Well, Vayu should have taken the whole. Why he allowed Rudra to take even a little? If you are interested in stories then read from SB. From Bhagavatam 19. O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Supreme Lord Himself, approached Lord Siva [sadasiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him. PLEASE NOTE: 19. -------, ALL THE DEMIGODS, ALONG WITH THE LORD HIMSELF, APPROACHED LORD SIVA -------- WHY LORD VISHNU—THE SUPREME GOD HEAD APPROACHED SADASIVA TO DRINK HALAHAL? Read below more Churning of the Ocean 21. The prajapatis said: O greatest of all gods, Mahadeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds. 22. O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship. PLEASE NOTE: THOSE WHO ARE ADVANCED IN SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS SURRENDER UNTO YOU, 23. O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahma, Visnu and Mahesvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation. 24. You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, Supreme Brahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation. 25. O lord, you are the original source of Vedic literature. You are the original cause of material creation, the life force, the senses, the five elements, the three modes and the mahat-tattva. You are eternal time, determination and the two religious systems called truth [satya] and truthfulness [rta]. You are the shelter of the syllable om, which consists of three letters a-u-m. 26. O father of all planets, learned scholars know that fire is your mouth, the surface of the globe is your lotus feet, eternal time is your movement, all the directions are your ears, and Varuna, master of the waters, is your tongue. 27. O lord, the sky is your navel, the air is your breathing, the sun is your eyes, and the water is your semen. You are the shelter of all kinds of living entities, high and low. The god of the moon is your mind, and the upper planetary system is your head. 28. O lord, you are the three Vedas personified. The seven seas are your abdomen, and the mountains are your bones. All drugs, creepers and vegetables are the hairs on your body, the Vedic mantras like Gayatri are the seven layers of your body, and the Vedic religious system is the core of your heart. 29. O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, Lord Siva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramatma. PLEASE NOTE: SELF-ILLUMINATED. SUPREME TRUTH, KNOWN AS PARAMATMA. 30. O lord, your shadow is seen in irreligion, which brings about varieties of irreligious creations. The three modes of nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--are your three eyes. All the Vedic literatures, which are full of verses, are emanations from you because their compilers wrote the various scriptures after receiving your glance. 31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra. PLEASE NOTE: THE VARIOUS DIRECTORS OF THIS MATERIAL WORLD CERTAINLY CANNOT APPRECIATE IT OR EVEN KNOW WHERE IT IS. IT IS NOT UNDERSTANDABLE EVEN TO LORD BRAHMA, LORD VISNU OR THE KING OF HEAVEN, MAHENDRA. 32. When annihilation is performed by the flames and sparks emanating from your eyes, the entire creation is burned to ashes. Nonetheless, you do not know how this happens. What then is to be said of your destroying the Daksa-yajna, Tripurasura and the kalakuta poison? Such activities cannot be subject matters for prayers offered to you. 33. Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Uma, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities. 34. Even personalities like Lord Brahma and other gods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. 35. O greatest of all rulers, your actual identity is impossible for us to understand. As far as we can see, your presence brings flourishing happiness to everyone. Beyond this, no one can appreciate your activities. We can see this much, and nothing more. AND PLEASE NOTE ALL THE TIME LORD VISHNU WAS ALSO THERE. Please do not lower the Sanatanah Dharma. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 28, 2005 Now this is getting so confusing. So can someone give a sweet and simple explanations of God in Hinduism, and the relations of the different names like visnu, rudra, indra, etc. Are they really different gods or the same One God and if so why did God multiply in so many forms? What's the point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 29, 2005 Hare Krishna, Srimad Bhagavatam : All the incarnations and forms are expansions, portions or plenary portions of the original Lord Krishna. Many forms so he can please devotees in variety of different ways. Demigods in order to administer the material world. Hare Krishna, Your Servant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Dear Atanu, why do you post some nonsense when you do not understand sanskrit in the first place. There are so many mistakes you make and you are incapable of understanding anything properly. Your logic is at best dumb for you do not understand what you read at the first place. About a year and half back also these verses were being bandied about foolishly. The Devi sukta you have quoted is shown below almost in full. This is on VAC, the first born of truth. Yes, she makes the man she loves exceedingly powerful by joining HIM and giving Him all her powers. And the loved man is Rudra. What makes you think this is Lakshmi Devi. Why does then she love another man called Rudra when she is consort of Vishnu? Or Rudra himself is Vishnu? You say Devi is strength of Rudra. Yes, that is true. All Devas and Devis are his strength alone. What is known by VAC, is Lakshmi Devi. Why ? Read the verse 7 attentively without shivite delusion: aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean. What is VAC (ie Lakshmi Devi) saying ? That HER home is in the Samudra. SHE is refering to KshiraSamudra here. Do you think Rudra Deva is in Samudra ? Definitely not. Only Visnu is in Samudra. Get it What does this mean ? that She, VAC, is Lakshmi Devi. yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám This same VAC also says, As per my desire(yáM kaamáye), I make one Rudra(ugráM kRNomi), BrahmA(tám brahmaáNaM), a Rsi(tám R'SiM) and a wise man(táM sumedhaám). This does not talk about love affairs. DEVI is telling that SHE makes somebody Rudra as per HER desire. Atanu, instead of interpreting my words as per your liking you must try to understand what is the intended meaning of the sanskrit verse. It has become a habit for these shivites to involve in needless word jugglery instead of making a sincere attempt to understand what is being written. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Yajur Veda iv. 3. 9. a Thou art the portion of Agni, the overlordship of consecration, the holy power saved, the threefold Stoma. b Thou art the portion of Indra, the overlordship of Visnu, the lordly power saved, the fifteen fold Stoma. ----------------------- PLEASE NOTE IT WELL. THOU ART THE PORTION OF INDRA, THE OVERLORDSHIP OF VISNU. AND WHO IS THOU? THOU definitely does not refer to Rudra Deva. THOU here refers to the performer of the sacrifice. The verses here have to be explained in context. Indra is the elder brother of Visnu, ie Vamana avatara. The whole Vedas refers t this Avatara very frequently. Only in this context, this can be explained. Visnu is beginingless. Read the following verses. Rig Veda Visnu the all pervadere: 7.099.01 Expanding with a body beyond all measure, Vis.n.u men comprehend not your magnitude; we know these your two worlds (computing) from the earth, but you, divine Vis.n.u, are cognisant of the highest. [Your two worlds: i.e. the earth and the firmament, which are visible; cf. RV. 10.082.05]. Read the following verse, which clearly says that no BEING ever attained Visnu's greatness. This includes Rudra Deva also, who cannot attain sucg greatness. 7.099.02 No being that is or that has been born, divine Vis.n.u, has attained the utmost limit of your magnitude by which you have upheld the vast and beautiful heaven, and sustained the eastern horizon of the earth. [Eastern horizon = the entire earth; Vis.n.u's upholding the three worlds has been mentioned more than once; cf. RV. 1.154.4]. Visnu is the ruler of three worlds and the MOST POWERFUL: 7.100.03 This deity, by his great power, traversed with three (steps) the many-lustrous earth; may Vis.n.u, the most powerful of the powerful rule over us, for illustrious is the name of the mighty one. [Earth: pr.thivi_ = pr.thivya_di_n, or the three worlds]. Combine this with other srutis like Ambrani Sukta and Rig Veda 7:40:5. It is clear. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Please do not translate incorrectly knowingly or unknowingly. This amounts to cheating. Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XII. Indra. -------- 27 When Visnu, through thine energy strode wide those three great steps, Then thy two beautiful Bay Steeds carried thee on. 8.012.27 When your (younger brother) Vis.n.u by (his) strength stepped his three paces, then verily your beloved horses bore you. Rig Veda Book 8 HYMN XV. Indra. 1. SING forth to him whom many men invoke, to him whom many laud. Invite the powerful Indra with your songs of praise. 9 Visnu, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise: In thee the Maruts' company have great delight. Praising is not worship. On the other hand 7:40:5 clearly states that Rudra Worshipped Visnu through sacrifices and only bevause of that Rudra Deva gained his Rudra-Stregth(Rudro Rudriyam Mahitvam). 8.015.09 Vis.n.u, the mighty giver of dwellings, praises you, and Mitra and Varun.a; the company of the Maruts imitates you in exhilaration. VISHNU THROUGH INDRA’S ENERGY CREATES THE SPACE. HE IS ALL PERVADING THOUGHT. AND DIVINE MIND IS THE SOURCE OF THOUGHT. VISHNU SINGS, PRAISES AND LAUDS INDRA WHO IS VISHNU’S OVERLORD. YOUR EGO WILL BE BROKEN. Thankyou for trying to dissolve my EGO. I hope to reciprocate to you the same way by breaking your EGO as well. I can show you that Lord Visnu does not get strength from Indra. 10.113.01 May the concurring heaven and earth, together with all the gods, preserve that strength of Indra, where by achieving (great deeds), he obtained the greatness that is appropriate to him, and having drunk the Soma, he, eminent for his prowess, increased (in strength). 10.113.02 Vis.n.u offering the portion of the Soma, glorified by his own vigour that greatness of his. Indra, the lord of wealth, with the associated gods having slain Vr.tra, became deserving of honour. The above verses are translated correctly, unlike your twisted version of the same vreses. I WILL NOW GIVE YOU A STILL BETTER DEVI SUKTA. YOU WILL KNOW WHY ADITI HOLDS ALOFT ALL DEVAS, EARTH, HEAVEN, SON AND FATHER? SINCE SHE IS ALL OF THEM. Book 1 HYMN LXXXIX. Visvedevas. 10 Aditi is the heaven, Aditi is mid-air, Aditi is the Mother and the Sire and Son. Aditi is all Gods, Aditi five-classed men, Aditi all that hath been born and shall be born. ADITI, THE ADVAITAM IS ALL -- THE MOTHER AND THE SIRE AND SON, ALL GODS, ALL THAT HATH BEEN BORN AND SHALL BE BORN. The translation and understanding is completely wrong. The original sanskrit verse is áditir dyaúr áditir antárikSam áditir maataá sá pitaá sá putráH víshve devaá áditiH páñca jánaa áditir jaatám áditir jánitvam Here Visvedevas are a category of Devatas and not all Devatas. Otherwise what is the need to mention Dyaus here. Dyaus is one of the Vasus, who are a category of Devatas. Atanu, please try to understand rather than repeat like a parrot and copy and paste. There are many categories of Devatas like Adityas, Vasus, Rudras, Visvedevas, Maruts, Asvini-kumaras and Rbhus. So much for your FALSE knowledge called advaita Atanu. Book 10 HYMN XCII. Visvedevas 9 With humble adoration show this day your song of praise to mighty Rudra, Ruler of the brave: With whom, the Eager Ones, going their ordered course, he comes from heaven Self-bright, auspicious, strong to guard. 11 For these songs, the Earth and Heaven with their abundant seed, four-bodied Narasmsa, Yama, Aditi, God Tvastar Wealth-bestower, the Rbhuksanas, Rodasi, Maruts, Visnu, claim and merit praise. This is classic example of shivite or advaitic cheating and mistranslation. Miss two verses inbetween, change the meaning and make it appear as something else. Let the readers read fully and understanbd this correctly. 10.092.09 Address praise today with reverence to Rudra the powerful destroyer of the heroes, (who is accompanied) by the mounted (Maruts), the granters of wishes, together with whom he, propitious, possessing kinsmen, besprinkles (the worshippers) from heaven. 10.092.10 Inasmuch as Br.haspati, the showerer (of benefits) and the kindred of Soma (the Visvedeva_s), bestow food (for the support) of people, Atharvan was the first to invigorate (the gods) with sacrifices; with strength the gods and Bhr.gus discovered (the cattle). [With strength: i.e., with the strength acquired from the sacrifice which they had eaten; having gone to the sacrifice made by Atharvan, they discovered the cattle; cf. RV 1.83.5]. 10.092.11 They the heaven and earth, abounding with waters, the Nara_s'am.sa rite with its four fires, Yama, Aditi, the divine Tvas.t.a_, (Agni) the giver of wealth, the R.bhus, Rodasi_, the Maruts, and Vis.n.u are worshipped (by us). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 First read this. Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second. Yes. He does not yeild, but Rudra Deva does not yield his position of Rudra. That is what is meant here. RV Mandala 7 hymn 46 1. To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God I think as usual the translation is wrong. There is no word as self-dependent in this verse. Here is the correct translation. imaá rudraáya sthirádhanvane gíraH kSipréSave devaáya svadhaávne áSaaLhaaya sáhamaanaaya vedháse tigmaáyudhaaya bharataa shRNótu naH Offer these praises to the divine Rudra, armed with the strong bow and fast-flying arrows,the equipoised, the bestower of food, the invincible, the conqueror, the creator, the wielder of sharp weapons; may he hear our (praises) Note the word Devaah in the above verse in BOLD. So it is clear through Sruti that Rudra is also a Devata. So here comes my refutation to another part of Atanu. What Rajashekhar Ji said was correct. Rudra is not Deva. He is Maha Deva. Ummhmm... Read my above verse. So we have that Rudra is a Deva and the following verse which says as follows. Aitareya Brahmana: 1:1:1 Agnir vai devAnAm avamo Visnuh paramas, tadantarena sarvA anyA devatA Agni is the lowest among devatas and Visnu is the highest, all other Devatas(anya devatas except Lord Visnu and Agni Deva, includes Rudra as Rudra is also a devata as mentioned in previous verse) occupy positions inbetween. Case closed. Rudra Deva is lower by this Sruti quoted above and also by Rig Veda 7:40:5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Here is a quote, where Indra asks Lord Visnu to help him. This verse clearly shows that Indra is lower in status and strenth to Lord Visnu. 8.100.12 O Vis.n.u my friends, stride forth lustily; O heaven, give room to contain the thunderbolt; let us smite Vr.tra, let us open the rivers; let them flow, set free, at the command of Indra. [Give room to contain the thunderbolt: Br.haddevata_ is cited: Vr.tra had enveloped the three worlds and stood there in his fierce energy; Indra could not conquer him, and he went to Vis.n.u and said, "I will smite Vr.tra, do you stride forth and stand by my side, and let the heavens give room for my uplifted thunderbolt". Vis.n.u consented and did so, and the heavens gave an open space. All this is related in this r.ca]. There is no question of Rudra worshipping a second. In 7:40:5, Visnu is propitiated by sages for being Rudra’s Rudra power. That’s all. The one who yieldeth to no second and who is self dependent does not need to worship a second. You disburser of profanity and falsifier of scripture; Bhagwan does not worship anyone. Saying so is blasphemy. The sruti is perfectly clear. Saying truth is not Blasphemy. Ambrani Sukta is abundantly clear in that Rudra Deva is a created being. 7:40:5 is also abundantly clear. "Vide hi Rudro Rudriyam Mahitvam" clearly means "On account of knowing this Rudra gained his Rudra power". Vide means "Knowing" hi means 'on account of' or 'certainly'. No one can arrive at your conclusion from the grammar. Visnu and Indra (Adityas) have birth from Soma. Whereas Rudra is self existent, undefeatable, cipivista, self dependent, ruler of earthly and celestial beings and undecaying and Sarveswara, who yields to no second. There is no word as self-dependent anywhere. Visnu is also called Sipivishta in Vedas. Visnu is also called as most powerful and invincible. Besides read the following verse where Lord Visnu is extolled as Self-Born, the ancient. 1.156.02 He who presents (offerings) to Vis.n.u, the ancient, the creator, the recent, the self-born; he who celebrates the great birth of that mighty one; he verily possessed of abundance, attains (the station) that is to be sought (by all). [s'ravobhir yujyam cidabhyasat, by food, or by fame, he attains whatsoever is to be joined with; to complete the ellipse: annairyuktah san sarvair gantavyam tat padam gacchati]. Also remeber the Abhrani Sukta, where Devi tells her home is in the waters. Read this verse which shows that Visnu is the creator of the waters. 1.156.03 Hymners, propitiate of your own accord that ancient Vis.n.u, since you know him as the germ of sacrifice, cognizant of his greatness, celebrate his name; may we, Vis.n.u, enjoy your favour. [Propitiate of your own accord: janus.a_ pipartana = lit. please or propitiate (him) by your birth; i.e. svata eva, of yourself or spontaneously, not from any interested motive: na kenacid vara la_bha_dina_; the germ of sacrifice: r.tasya garbham, born as one with sacrifice (yajn~o vai vis.n.uh: Aitareya Bra_hman.a 1.1.2.13); verily (is) Vis.n.u; or, if r.ta keep the sense of water, then the phrase applies to Vis.n.u as the cause or creator of water: apa eva sasarja a_dau (Manu 1.8), in the beginning he created water]. This verse calls both Indra and Visnu as undefeatable. These words are used for all Devatas and does not prove Rudra as greater. 1.155.01 Offer your nutritious viands to the great hero, (Indra), who is pleased by praise, and to Vis.n.u, the two invincible deities who ride upon the radiant summit of the clouds as upon a well-trained steed. But we have clear verse establishing SUPREMACY of VISNU. (Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1) Agnir avamo Visnu Paramas... SOMA-PAVAMANA IS FATHER OF INDRA AND VISNU RV Book 9 HYMN XCVI. Soma Pavamana 4 Flow for prosperity and constant Vigour, flow on for happiness and high perfection. This is the wish of these friends assembled: this is my wish, O Soma Pavamana. 5 Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward the Father of the earth, Father of heaven: Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the Father who begat Indra and Visnu. wrong translation and wrong interpretation. The verses above establish that Lord Visnu is ancient, self-Born and the creator. That being said, the verse has to be understoof in the context. The context here is that Devatas perform sacrifice where Soma(juice) is involved. Through this sacrifice, by using Soma one invokes Lord Visnu and so SOMA is praised as generator of Visnu ie the Vamana Avatara(Trivikrama). AND ADITYAS ARE BRIGHT DUE TO THE GRACE OF SOMA-RUDRA. Yajur Veda ii. 2. 10. Yonder sun did not shine, the gods sought atonement for him, and for him they offered this oblation to Soma and Rudra: verily thereby they bestowed brightness upon him. Ambrani Sukta still stands. Rudra was created by Devi, who depends on Visnu. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 What is gring by the way? My mistake. Its a typo. It is GRIND. Who is this childish person? He is insulting father of all. My legs give me mobility, so they are superior to me? Shiva is Lord of the great elements: Ether, Vayu, Agni, Water, And Earth. He is Bhooth Nath in addition to Isana. Emotionally out of balance... This person says: “This is the story where Vayu had to gring the poison from the ocean for Rudra Deva as Rudra himself was not able to gring the poison or digest it. So Vayu Deva had to grind it for Rudra deva and also drink a major portion of this poison while giving only a small portion to Rudra Deva”. Rudra was not able to gring it. Then he was not able to digest so he took a small portion and Vayu took the most. Well, Vayu should have taken the whole. Why he allowed Rudra to take even a little? Vayu Deva is the Controlling DEITY of LIFE and not merely wind - the element. This includes Rudra Deva, who occupies a lower position than Vayu Deva. Vayu is called Sutra(Thread) that connects everyliving entity in Brhadaranyaka Upanishad(3:7:2). Yajnavalkya said: "Vayu, O Gautama, is that Sutra. By Vayu, as by a thread, O Gautama, are this world, the other world and all beings held together. Therefore, O Gautama, they say of a person who dies that his limbs have been loosened; for they are held together by Vayu as by a thread." Note the use of this world and other world and all beings held together. So Vayu occupies a very important position in Vedas. This verse explains why Vayu Deva was not affected by poison as much as Rudra Deva. The sruti quoted before from Rig Veda clearly explains that Vayu Deva drank along with Rudra Deva. Now why Rudra Deva was allowed to drink with Vayu Deva, is because Vayu Deva wanted Rudra to gain glory out of Vayu's mercy. It is also clear from sruti that Vayu had to churn and grind the poison for Rudra Deva and then give it to Rudra Deva. This again shows the superior power of Vayu Deva when compared to Rudra Deva. Hence Rudra Deva occupies a lower position than Vayu Deva. If you are interested in stories then read from SB. From Bhagavatam Sruti is a higher pramAnA than Bhagavatam. VVayu Sukta is clear about Rudra Deva's position relative to Vayu Deva. The explanation is above. Bhagavatam also contains tamasic verses, which can be known clearly through this SRuti. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ganeshprasad 0 Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Jai Ganesh ahaṃ rudrebhirvasubhiścarāmyahamādityairutaviśvadevaiḥ | ahaṃ mitrāvaruṇobhā bibharmyahamindrāghnīahamaśvinobhā || ahaṃ somamāhanasaṃ bibharmyahaṃ tvaṣṭāramutapūṣaṇaṃ bhagham | ahaṃ dadhāmi draviṇaṃ haviṣmatesuprāvye yajamānāya sunvate || ahaṃ rāṣṭrī saṃghamanī vasūnāṃ cikituṣī prathamāyajñiyānām | tāṃ mā devā vyadadhuḥ purutrābhūristhātrāṃ bhūryāveśayantīm || mayā so annamatti yo vipaśyati yaḥ prāṇiti ya īṃśṛṇotyuktam | amantavo māṃ ta upa kṣiyanti śrudhiśruta śraddhivaṃ te vadāmi || ahameva svayamidaṃ vadāmi juṣṭaṃ devebhirutamānuṣebhiḥ | yaṃ kāmaye taṃ-tamughraṃ kṛṇomi tambrahmāṇaṃ taṃ ṛṣiṃ taṃ sumedhām || ahaṃ rudrāya dhanurā tanomi brahmadviṣe śarave hantavāu | ahaṃ janāya samadaṃ kṛṇomyahaṃ dyāvāpṛthivī āviveśa || ahaṃ suve pitaramasya mūrdhan mama yonirapsvantaḥ samudre | tato vi tiṣṭhe bhuvanānu viśvotāmūṃ dyāṃvarṣmaṇopa spṛśāmi || ahameva vāta iva pra vāmyārabhamāṇā bhuvanāni viśvā | paro divā para enā pṛthivyaitāvatī mahinā saṃ babhūva || 1. I TRAVEL with the Rudras and the Vasus, with the Adityas and All-Gods I wander. I hold aloft both Varuna and Mitra, Indra and Agni, and the Pair of Asvins. 2 I cherish and sustain high-swelling Soma, and Tvastar I support, Pusan, and Bhaga. I load with wealth the zealous sdcrificer who pours the juice and offers his oblation 3 I am the Queen, the gatherer-up of treasures, most thoughtful, first of those who merit worship. Thus Gods have stablished me in many places with many homes to enter and abide in. 4 Through me alone all eat the food that feeds them,-each man who sees, brewhes, hears the word outspoken They know it not, but yet they dwell beside me. Hear, one and all, the truth as I declare it. 5 1, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome. I make the man I love exceeding mighty, make him a sage, a Rsi, and a Brahman. 6 I bend the bow for Rudra that his arrow may strike and slay the hater of devotion. I rouse and order battle for the people, and I have penetrated Earth and Heaven. 7 On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean. Thence I extend o'er all existing creatures, and touch even yonder heaven with my forehead. 8 I breathe a strong breath like the wind and tempest, the while I hold together all existence. Beyond this wide earth and beyond the heavens I have become so mighty in my grandeur. Re (What is known by VAC, is Lakshmi Devi.) May be, but read No1 she travels with Rudra and the rest can you tell us in which form? aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré Re (On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean.) Can you tell us who the father on the world’s summit is? yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám Re (This same VAC also says, As per my desire(yáM kaamáye), I make one Rudra(ugráM kRNomi), BrahmA(tám brahmaáNaM), a Rsi(tám R'SiM) and a wise man(táM sumedhaám). This does not talk about love affairs. DEVI is telling that SHE makes somebody Rudra as per HER desire. ) Well talk about word jugglery, whom ever VAC kamaye she makes some one Ugra,ugra in this instance is an adjective therefore meaning mighty or angry not necessary Rudra. Jai Shree Krishna Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 As usual I think I am arguing with totally incompetent people, who do not take any sincere attempt to understand the verses. May be, but read No1 she travels with Rudra and the rest can you tell us in which form? Mr. Ganeshprasad, please read the verse proprly. 1. The verse says VAC(Lakshmi Devi) travelsz with Rudras(not Rudra). Whenever Rig Veda wants to refer Rudra Deva, it will name Rudra in singular and not plural. Rudra is not included among Rudras when mentioned in plural. Similarly, Visnu is not included among Adityas. 2. The verse also mentions Vausus, Adityas and VisveDevas. Devi is merely telling about HER powers over Rudras, Vasus, Adityas and Here is the verse for your reference again. aháM rudrébhir vásubhish caraamy ahám aadityaír utá vishvádevaiH ahám mitraáváruNobhaá bibharmy ahám indraagnií ahám ashvínobhaá 10.125.01 I proceed with the Rudras, with the Vasus, with the A_dityas, and with the Vis'vedeva_s; I support both Mitra and Varun.a, Agni and Indra, and the two As'vins. Can you tell us who the father on the world’s summit is? Can you read the original verse and get the true meaning ? Here it is for you again. aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré 10.125.07 I bring forth the paternal (heaven) upon the brow of this (Supreme Being), my birthplace is in the midst of the waters; The word muurdhán means summit or the highest point. This word in no way refers to Kailasa or any mountain and hence it definitely does not refer to Rudra Deva. Well talk about word jugglery, whom ever VAC kamaye she makes some one Ugra,ugra in this instance is an adjective therefore meaning mighty or angry not necessary Rudra. Read the sanskrit clearly. yáM kaamáye táM-tam ugráM kRNomi tám brahmaáNaM tám R'SiM táM sumedhaám Note the words ugráM, brahmaáNaM, R'SiM and sumedhaám. Here brahmaáNaM refers to Chatumukha BrahmA R'SiM refers to all great R'Sis. Since Devi is showing power over Chaturmukha BrahmA here, SHE is also showing power over ugrá which is another name of Rudra Deva. Even if you do not agree to this, in the previous verse we have aháM rudraáya dhánur aá tanomi brahmadvíSe shárave hántavaá u I bend the bow of Rudra, to slay the destructive enemy of the Bra_hman.as. Here Devi establishes HER superior power over Rudra Deva. After establishing HER superior strength over Rudra Deva, SHE further says in verse 7(as stated before), that SHE is the creator of Rudra, BrahmA, Rsis, and wise men. There is no word jugglery here. There is clear continuation of thought. Vaisnavas are truthful unlike deluded shivites who pretend and hide behind faulty advaita theory. Your position holds no water. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 Also it was pointed that Indra was born through Soma. But here Indra is said to be Somapati ie Soma's master. prá sú víshvaan rakSáso dhákSy agne bhávaa yajñaánaam abhishastipaávaa áthaá vaha sómapatiM háribhyaam aatithyám asmai cakRmaa sudaávne 1,076.03 Utterly consume all the ra_ks.asas, Agni, and be the protector of our sacrifices against interruption. Bring hither the guardian of Soma, (Indra), with his steeds, that we may show hospitality to the giver of food. [somapati: a remarkable epithet for Indra (though not mentioned in the text, indicated by reference to haribhya_m, Indra's two steeds]. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 8.100.12 O Vis.n.u my friends, stride forth lustily; O heaven, give room to contain the thunderbolt; let us smite Vr.tra, let us open the rivers; let them flow, set free, at the command of Indra. [Give room to contain the thunderbolt: Br.haddevata_ is cited: Vr.tra had enveloped the three worlds and stood there in his fierce energy; Indra could not conquer him, and he went to Vis.n.u and said, "I will smite Vr.tra, do you stride forth and stand by my side, and let the heavens give room for my uplifted thunderbolt". Vis.n.u consented and did so, and the heavens gave an open space. All this is related in this r.ca]. 1,076.03 Utterly consume all the ra_ks.asas, Agni, and be the protector of our sacrifices against interruption. Bring hither the guardian of Soma, (Indra), with his steeds, that we may show hospitality to the giver of food. [somapati: a remarkable epithet for Indra (though not mentioned in the text, indicated by reference to haribhya_m, Indra's two steeds]. 8.100.12 establishes Supremacy of Visnu over Indra 1,076.03 establishes Indr's spremacy over Soma. Implies that Visnu much superior to Soma. The verses showing Soma as generator of Visnu is merely the reference to the sacrifice performed by Devatas and how devatas were able to invoke and worship Visnu successfully usng the Soma(beverage). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 30, 2005 aháM suve pitáram asya muurdhán máma yónir apsv àntáH samudré Re (On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean.) Can you tell us who the father on the world’s summit is? Ofcourse it is Visnu. Read the following verse. prá tád víSNu stavate viiryèNa mRgó ná bhiimáH kucaró giriSThaáH yásyorúSu triSú vikrámaNeSv adhikSiyánti bhúvanaani víshvaa 1.154.02 Vis.n.u is therefore glorified, that by his prowess he is like a fearful, ravenous, and mountain-haunting wild beast, and because of that in his three paces all worlds abide. [Mountain-haunting wild beast: mr.ga or sim.ha, a lion, as applicable to Vis.n.u: one who seeks for his enemies to inflict punishment on them, and is therefore, fearful and fierce; giris.t.ha_h = he who dwells on high, or who abides in prayer and the like: mantra_diru_pa_ya_m va_ci artama_nah]. giriSThaáH means one who occupies highest point. muurdhán also means highest point or summit So Ambrani Sukta along with 1:154:02 confirms and further strengthens my point that Lord Visnu is refered in Ambrani Sukta as I claimed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 kudos fellow Vaishnavas. Its time these mental sepculators who for some reasons propagate false philosophies and are like agents of Kali yuga should be given a deep beating in debates like you have done. Jai Sri Krishna. May truth prevail over all falsehoods. What a kick for Barney and Co. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 31, 2005 When the pure light of eternal Vedas falls upon a soul, all doubts and ignorant notions created by mental speculators/cheaters etc... are cast far away, just like sins of humans are washed by grace of God. -------------------------- Ouestion 1: So the question to be asked is what is the criteria to determine who is brahman ? Answer 1: The answer comes from "janma adi asya yatah" "He, from whom proceeds the creation, preservation and destruction of universe, is brahman." [VS 1.1.2] This sutra of vyasdeva is based on Taitirriya Up 3.1 "That verily from which these beings are born, that by which when born, they live and that into which, when departing, they enter, that, seek to know, that is brahman." So Vyasdeva puts down creation etc.. as defination of brahman. According to indian logic , an object is defined only in terms of its essential or ditistinguishing charactersitics[1] , hence one must take creation etc.... to be distinguishing characteristic of Brahman. [1] Line taken from Dr. SMS Chari's Phil of Upanisads Pg. 104. Question 2: This is fine still we want to see some more evidence. Show some more quotations is support of your position. Answer 2: Very well. Lets go ahead. Kaushitaki-Brahmana Upanishad IV-19 "Thereupon Balaki was silent. To him then Ajatasatru said: So much only Balaki ? `So much only' replied Balaki. To him, then, Ajatasatru said: In vain, indeed, did you make to converse saying `Let me declare Brahman to you'. He, indeed. Balaki, who is the maker of these persons, of whom verily this is the work, he alone is to be known." Baladeva comments that the word work used here doesn't means normal work but creation. [see Govinda Bhasya Pg 185.] Following the same line of thought after having defined material energy and then spirit soul Lord Krishna says in Gita, Chapter 7, Verse 6. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution. Chapter 7, Verse 7. O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread. Also in Bhagavatam 1.1.1, "Let me offer my obesiances unto Vasudeva from whom proceeds creation etc... of this world....." Question 3: But according to this caturmukha brahma deva who is supposed to be creator of the world will also be brahman. So how can you conclude only Vishnu is brahman and not caturmukha brahma ? Answer 3: Caturmukha brahma himself is created by that entity who imparts vedas to it. See here as we present evidence: You have mentioned that caturmukha brahma creates and is engineer of this world and we don't disagree with you because ***since*** this is stated in sastra it is our position as well. However, same sastra also says that he is created entity at the same time. Mundaka Upanisad 1.1.1 at the very outset says: "brahma devanam prathamah samabhuva visvasya karta bhuvanasya gopta" "Brahma is the first created amongst gods. He is creator of universe and protector of world." Here words Visvasya karta meaning creator[karta] of visva or universe and bhuvanasya gopta meaning protector of world substantiates the position of opponent. But at the same time this very upanisad itself says brahma or caturmukha is prathamah samabhuva or first created one. So even though we know brahma is creator and protector, he himself has been created. Hence according to criteria already established for determining who is brahman, we can safely rule out caturmukha brahma to be brahman himself, because brahman cannot be created. He creates all. And for the above reason even quotes like one given below cannot be understood to mean caturmukha brahma is same as brahman. Taitirriya Samhita 4.1.8 states - "hiranyagarbhah samavartatagre bhutsaya jatah patireka asit sa dadhara prthivim dyam utenam kasmai devaya havisa vidhema" "Prior to creation hiranyagarbha existed and that He became ruler by creating all the beings. He sustained the physical universe below and also the heaven above..." I repeat, these verses cannot be used to establish that caturmukha brahma is brahman himself when seen in light of Mundaka Upanisad verse which also says caturmukha brahma is creator and protector but adding to these details it states that he too is created. If someone were to say but that taittirriya verse says caturmukha brahma existed prior to creation, so he should be supreme, to this we reply, the word creation here refers to creation carried out by caturmukha brahma which is secondary. But how can we call it secondary? because other srutis cited here say "Brahma is first created..." [Mund Up] and "at the beginning of creation brahma was projected..." [svet Up] talks a creation which includes creation of caturmukha brahma himself. And Mundaka says then this created one [Caturmukha brahma] goes on creating other things. Hence primary creation is one which includes creation of this brahma. This primary creator is brahman and he imparts vedas to brahman. And we have more support from Sruti to substantiate that brahma is created one. Svetasvatara Upanisad VI-18 "yo brahmanam vidadhati purvam...." "He who at the beginning of creation projected Brahma, who delivered the Vedas unto him........" Here we see that brahma was created and was taught vedas. Bhagavatam 1.1.1 after identifying brahman with Vasudeva on basis of janma adi asya yatah theme developed by Vyasdeva in Vedanta Sutra on basis of upanisad it says: "tene brahma hridâ ya âdi-kavaye ....." "It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmâjî, the original living being....." adi kavaye means original created being. And we know from upanisad, brahma is first created being. Svet. and Mund both confirm this idea. Krishna or Vasudeva imparts him Vedic Knowledge. Svetasvatara says brahma who is first created is imparted vedic knowledge. Also, Gita essence of all upanisad supports the same position: First half of Gita 11.37 "kasmac ca te na nameran mahatman" "Why should they not offer their homage up to You, O great one ?" Then 11.37 says "gariyase brahmanah apy adi-kartre" "You are greater than brahma, O original creator..." gariyase brahmanah meaning greater than Brahma. Furthermore Gita 8.16 also teaches distinction between Krishna/Brahman and Caturmukha brahma. abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna mam upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate "All the worlds, down from the realm of brahma, are subjected to return, O Arjuna. But on reaching Me there is no rebirth." Please take note of this verse. In the word abrahma indicating brahma's realm is specifically used. Furthermore Narayana Upanisad and Maha Upanisad also says the same that brahma is born from Narayana. I haven't quoted them to keep this post from becoming unnecessarily too long. AS A SIDE NOTE: People just see how many different scriptures are condensed into just ***one*** verse of bhagavata 1.1.1. No wonder its called sarva vedam sara. Bhagavatam clinches the issue by quoting caturmukha brahma himself as saying - Bhagavatam 2.6.35: "Although I am known as the great Brahmâ, perfect in the disciplic succession of Vedic wisdom, and although I have undergone all austerities and am an expert in mystic powers and self-realization, and although I am recognized as such by the great forefathers of the living entities, who offer me respectful obeisances, still I cannot understand Him, the Lord, the very source of my birth." Question 4: But at some places Vishnu is also said to be created. So how can you say that Vishnu alone is brahman and not caturmukha brahma based on Sruti + Vedanta Sutra criteria you mentioned earlier ? In Sruti itself it is stated - Atharvasikha Up 2.15 states caturmukha brahma, rudra, indra and vishnu himself are all subjected to birth. And hence how can you use that criteria to rule out caturmukha brahma but not Vishnu. Answer 4: The answer is very simple. Birth in case of Vishnu refers to avatara and not birth in the sense of being created by some distinct entity. Krishna himself says this in Gita 4.5-6 where he also states that he takes avatar out of his own will and not forced by karma or any other entity. In Gita 10.2-3 he says his origin being caused by his own will is unknown to sages and devatas etc... and IT IS HE ONLY WHO KNOWS HIM TO BE UNBORN KNOWS HIM REALLY - HE IS UNDELUDED. Chapter 10, Verse 2. "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Chapter 10, Verse 3. "He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds--he, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins." Sruti also says what Krishna says in Gita 4.5: "ajayamano bahudha vijyate" "Though He is unborn, he takes many births." [Purusha Sukta, Yajur Veda recension 21.] So also in Taittirriya Arayanka 3.12.7 "Being unborn, he is born in various form." Srutis also say [Compare this to Gita 10.3 and 4.9]- " The wise know well the manner in which He is born." [ Taitirriya Arayanka 3.13.1] Krishna is not subjected to Karma. Sruti verifies this: "esa sarvabhutantaratma apahatapapma divyo deva eko narayanah" "He who is inner soul of every being, free from karmic bondage is the divine one - Narayana." [subala Upanisad 7] ***** And a similar claim cannot be made with respect to brahma since in his case Avatar theory is not admitted.***** Hence it is proven beyond doubt that Sri Hari is who is distinct from all devatas including Shakti/Uma is distinct from Caturmukha brahma too. He alone is Supreme. Rest are subordinate. We conclude by quoting another sruti vakya: "agnirvai devanamavamo visnuh paramah tadantarena sarva anya devatah." "Among deities, agni is lowest and Vishnu is Supreme and rest comes in between." [Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1] Note words Visnuh paramah meaning Vishnu is Supreme, tadantarena meaning in between them [them meaning Agni as lowest, Vishnu as highest] comes "sarva" meaning all, "anya" meaning other, "devatah" meaning gods or deities. There is no reason for Srutis to create this hiearchies if there is one god appearing in forms of caturmukha, indra, agni, kali/uma/shakti etc......... The purport of whole scriptures is just one to establish Hari Sarvotamyah - Hari is Supreme. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
