Algorithm for dealing with Vaishnavite Fanatics

[Guest guest]

We are seeing an increased friction between the Vaishnavas and the Shaivas on this forum.

 

Obviously this is all the fault of the Vaishnavas, who as you know are wery fanatikal because they believe that only Vishnu is the Supreme God. They are such jealous people because they believe that there can be only one supreme God. Such fanatics! They should accept the enlightened wiew that Shiva is supreme God. But they say that Wishnu is supreme God. This is fanatickism!

 

We Hindoos must band together and fight this dangerous idea! So what follows here is an algorithm to help the enlightened Shaivite people to teach these foolish Waishnawite Hindoos the trooth.

 

This is especially for Barney, Atanu, and other Hindoos....

 

Algorithm follows:

---------

START

 

You say Shiva is Supreme God and Vishnu is not Supreme God

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite asks why this is so,

...THEN Explain to Fanatik Vaishnavite that Shiva is Supreme God, because it is so obvious, everyone knows it, etc.

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite understands and accepts this mahA-brahma-tarka [great transcendental logic] and accepts you as an enlightened soul, GOTO END#1

OR IF Fanatik Vaishnavite repeats request as to why you think Shiva is Supreme God...

... THEN Explain to Fanatik Vaishnavite that Shiva is Supreme God because Vedas say so

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite understands, bows before you and admits his mahA-pApam in doubting you, THEN GOTO END#1

OR IF Fanatik Vaishnavite asks you where in Vedas Shiva is said to be Supreme...

...THEN Explain to Fanatik Vaishnavite that Shiva is Supreme because Shaivite Puranas say so.

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite again asks why you previously said Shiva is supreme in Vedas when you now are saying Shiva is supreme only because of Shaiva Purana

...THEN Explain to Fanatik Vaishnavite that yes, you said Shiva is supreme in Vedas and you meant it, but he is only supreme in Vedas as long as no one asks where that is, so just nevermind, shutup about it, and accept the Shaiva PurAna.

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite is unsatisifed, and asks you again to quote where in Vedas it says that Shiva is supreme and not Vishnu,

....THEN tell Fanatik Vaishnavite that Vishnu is not supreme because in Vedas he is only minor solar deity. Laugh at Fanatik Vaishnavite for his stoopidity.

....ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite quotes "oM tad viShNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH" (Rig Veda 1.22.20) which says Vishnu is Supreme and not a minor solar deity...

...THEN cover your ears, close your eyes, chant "Shiva Shiva" three times, ignore whatever he said, and again repeat that in Vedas only Shiva is supreme and not Vishnu, who is only minor solar deity in Vedas [except for everywhere in the Vedas where this is not said].

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF you open your eyes and Fanatik Vaishnavite is still there, asking why you think Shiva is supreme in Vedas when you have not shown where this is so....

...THEN tell Fanatik Vaishnavite that Shiva is supreme because SvetAshvatara UpaniShad says so. Feel very proud of yourself that you can say "upaniShad." Now Fanatik Vaishnavite will think you are very smart.

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite points out that he also knows this Upanishad, and that the person glorified in it is actually Vishnu, because some of Shiva's names are also names of Vishnu, and because the God in that Upanishad is described as the creator of BrahmA [and thus he can only be Vishnu]....

...THEN get very angry, ignore everything Fanatik Vaishnavite said [after all, he is a Fanatik] and just say that other Upanishads make Shiva supreme God.

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite quotes other Upanishads which show that Vishnu is Supreme God and creator of Shiva....

...THEN again become very angry, accuse dumb Vaishnavite of Fanatickism, and explain to dumb Vaishnavite that obviously Shiva is supreme in Vedas and Upanishads, because the PurAnas prove it.

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite quotes some PurAna showing that Vishnu is higher than Shiva

...THEN explain to Fanatik Vaishnavite that when you said said "PurAnas prove Shiva to be supreme God," you did not mean all PurAnas but only those PurAnas which say that Shiva is supreme God. Point out to dumb Vaishnavite that this is great logical argument, and he can't accept it because he is so dumb and fanatikal.

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite still cannot accept this greatly intelligent response because he is so dumb...

...THEN Explain to Fanatik Vaishnavite that it is ok, Shiva is supreme, and Vishnu is also supreme, they are both supreme because they are both one. So U can worship whoever you want. Now pat yourself on back that U are so smart and tolerant and accepting, unlike dumb Fanatik Vaishnavite.

...ELSE GOTO END#1

 

LET STRAWMAN = irrelevant argument intended to divert flow of discussion from your own inconsistency

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite asks why you now say Vishnu is also supreme, when before you said he is only minor solar deity...

... THEN STRAWMAN

... ELSE GOTO END #1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite asks you to stop changing subject and answer his questions....

... REPEAT STRAWMAN

... ELSE GOTO END #1

 

IF Fanatik Vaishnavite still believes in foolish idea that Vishnu is Supreme God....

... THEN GOTO START

... ELSE GOTO END#1

 

END#1: Fanatik Vaishnavite has accepted great logical arguments that Shiva is Supreme God. Congratulate Fanatik Vaishnavite on his enlightenment and explain to him now he can do whatever he wants, he is no longer Fanatikal. There is some hope for this poor dumb Vaishnavite after all.

 

END#2: [deliberately left out of algorithm. after all, how can we lost an argument to a Fanatik?]

 

[Guest guest]

i see very well that your message is not at all fanatic..

 

 

[Guest guest]

"They are such jealous people because they believe that there can be only one supreme God."

 

But there can only be ONE supreme God! God in it's impersonal aspect is known as Brahman and in it's personal aspect as Ishwar. God is known by many names by different people - Vishnu and Shiva are just names of this God through the acts of preservation and destruction respectively. All the gods are one and the same, they are not seperate, they are just represented seperatly according to their functions, through mythology.

[maadhav]

<< We are seeing an increased friction between the Vaishnavas and the Shaivas on this forum. >>

 

and i say to hindus that it is not worth debating it at this time. hindus do debate (vada) only to seek truth, the higher truth. at the end one who cannot hold his argument accepts the opponents claim or argument. this is the ancient vedic process. just arguing for the sake of arguing is a wate of time.

 

<< Obviously this is all the fault of the Vaishnavas, who as you know are wery fanatikal because they believe that only Vishnu is the Supreme God. >>

 

their fault, only if what they say is not supported by gurus, sadhus, and shastras. however, 'supreme god' cannot be two but one only. now he can have many forms or names.

 

the other point is that sadhana or bhakti for a deva must be avyabhichariNi - simgle pointed and firm. so, a siva worshipper should never think any one else is above siva; and same for vishnu or any other deity's worshiper.

sanatana dharma (gita) says us to respect all these vedic paths, but stick with our chosen sadhana.

 

sure the subject naturally causes a debate, but that debate is an internal hindu family matter, and with no enimocity.

 

teh other point is that such debates are already done by great aacharyas, and we have the records. so, when we arenot as experts as the great aacharyas, why should we debate? just accept the final conclusion of the past debates as they do in the counts.

 

<< They are such jealous people because they believe that there can be only one supreme God. Such fanatics! >>

 

Any one who says 'supreme is one, not two' is not a fanatic.

 

<< They should accept the enlightened wiew that Shiva is supreme God. But they say that Wishnu is supreme God. This is fanatickism! >>

 

they have reasons to believe so, and they would share the reasont too if you ask. you can do the same too. none is fanatic about it in my view. why you have so much desire to label some one fanatic?

 

<< We Hindoos must band together and fight this dangerous idea! >>

 

the way to unite is thru gita because,

that is THE BOOK of Hinduism, well known over the world.

At this time there is no need to talk about any other vedic scripture to the world. just talk about gita only.

 

tell me what gita says about vishnu and siva please?

 

<< So what follows here is an algorithm to help the enlightened Shaivite people to teach these foolish Waishnawite Hindoos the trooth.>>

 

the tone in these lines shows an intent to ignote a fight.

and the hindus will not fall in that trap.

 

those who want hindus to unite use different tone.

are you a hindu really?

 

[Guest guest]

He was extremely witty, I like it. You see, we have so much in common-devil worship, humor etc. We should be friends intead of fighting each other.

[maadhav]

ok. you can think i am your friend if you insist.

 

the fact is we are poles apart in our understanding of reality.

 

what is your source book for the knowledge about the devil, where he lives, what he does, his parents, and how you worship him and what you expect the result of the worship please?

 

who is your guru, your most admired devil worshipper?

 

why the devil loves you?

what you like about the devil?

 

[barney]

Hinduism is a perplex religion to a layman or even those calling themselves as an expert in sanskrit. Hinduism is not bound by one matter but contains many school of thoughts. It evolved thousand of years of transition from the Indus valley civilization to the present world we live in. Over centuries many saints and writers have done their best to translate or interprete the Vedic religion to the best of their knowledge but yet there is a war of knowledge still going on between the followers of Vaishnavaim[followers of Vishnu/Narayana/Krishna], Saivaism[shiva] and Sakthism. The knowledge of spritual enlightenment is not easily gained by just reading one particular school of thought. In fact the actual philosophy of Hinduism is Dharma. It is a way of life described in all the four Vedas and later the great epic Mahabaratha was born. Was the story of Mahabaratha a myth or reality is not the question here but the important factor is the moral of the story. It gives meaning to man's age old question of why we are here and what is our duty as man. The Hindu philosophy is actually called Sanathan Dharma. Sanathan Dharma, as the name suggests owes its inception to none other than the eternal supreme soul- Brahman. Unlike other religions such as Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrians and Buddhism which all clearly show the name of their inceptors like Christ, Mohammed, Zarthustra and Buddha, Sanatan Dharma boasts its inception to the supreme soul Himself. Sanatan has no beginning and hence no end. It exists right from the moment of creation of universe to the time of Pralaya (the great deluge). It is Sanatan not because it owes its inception to the eternal God but because it is eternal in itself. It shall exist up to Pralaya and shall not be destroyed even after Pralaya when it will lie dormant but exist neverthless.With the beginning of new creation, Sanatan shall rise once again to protect mankind and help it prosper.

 

SANATANAM PARAMATMA SWARUPAM PRAAPYATI ITI|

 

Meaning - The religion that helps us attain union with the eternal soul is Sanatan. A follower of Sanatan dharma abides to the true- path and which helps him to unite with the almighty God ultimately.

 

 

RELIGION AND COMMUNITY

 

There is only one religion. Nomatter if it has acquired different names in various parts of the world depending upon circumstances, culture and tradition but the fact is that it must necessarily contain all the good qualities capable of giving boost to the spiritual upliftment of a man and his ultimate salvation. These diverse elements of virtuosity have been named as religion. Anything lacking this spirit cannot be called a religion. For

example 'warmth' is the distinctive feature of 'fire'. If fire loses warmth, it is no more a fire. Similarly, the sun provides light and warmth, if it loses these properties, it will be no more than a dead star. Liquidity and coldness are the property of water. Without them, it will not be water. Human being is the supreme creation of the nature. Our ancient sages, with the help of their tremendous insight had formulated certain rules for the society-how a human should live and what should be his behaviour in the society, etc. A man who doesn't follow any rules and regulations is not a human. Such a conduct bound by certain norms and regulations is termed as religion. This very quality of man (Following the religion) makes him distinct from the animals. By, instinct man behaves like an animal. Force that checks this fall in human behaviour is known as religion. It is said that only those shall live-individual or institution- who follow the religion; those who do not follow the religion shall be no better than dead despite having a living body.

 

DHARM or RELIGION

 

 

Dharma is the spirit of humanity.

Dharma is the heart to feel humanity.

Dharma is the examiner and investigator of the spiritual faiths.

Dharma investigates the reasons for creation.

Dharma shows the relation between the regulations and regulator of the creation.

Dharma helps one for introspection.

Dharma is culture.

Dharma is knowledge.

Dharma is fortune and salvation.

Dharma provides eternity.

 

PURANAS:

The Puranas are of the same class as the Itihasas (the Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc.). They have five characteristics (Pancha Lakshana), viz., history, cosmology (with various symbolical illustrations of philosophical principles), secondary creation, genealogy of kings, and of Manvantaras (the period of Manu’s rule consisting of 71 celestial Yugas or 308,448,000 years). All the Puranas belong to the class of Suhrit-Sammitas, or the Friendly Treatises, while the Vedas are called the Prabhu-Sammitas or the Commanding Treatises with great authority.

 

The Puranas are of the same class as the Itihasas (the Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc.). They have five characteristics (Pancha Lakshana), viz., history, cosmology (with various symbolical illustrations of philosophical principles), secondary creation, genealogy of kings, and of Manvantaras (the period of Manu’s rule consisting of 71 celestial Yugas or 308,448,000 years). All the Puranas belong to the class of Suhrit-Sammitas, or the Friendly Treatises, while the Vedas are called the Prabhu-Sammitas or the Commanding Treatises with great authority.

 

Each of the above purans has its own distinctiveness. None is greater than ther other. The troubble starts only when one gets so involved in one particular purana that he goes over board and the whole problem begins of who is superior to the other. The concept of Hinduism is one into three and without the three there would be no one. The one si the Supreme Brahman and call him what you may Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva but the ultimate reality is Brahman. From him we came unto him we will go. So, stop the nonsense in fighting and promote Dharma if not adhrama would surface and peace will not prevail.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

at all, we are both devil's children, only U are ashmaed to admit it. You and I are both similiar in thinking, you constantly talk of doing evil to other people, and we worship the devil. Whats the diff.? Hindus and devil worshippers have so much in common.

[Guest guest]

It evolved thousand of years of transition from the Indus valley civilization to the present world we live in.

 

another demonstration of the fact that you are not a hindu or a religious person.. you do not believe in vedas but in darwinian evolution theory

 

very nice