The Song Celestial

[Guest guest]

"--wich of your citations demonstrates that 18,66 is not the conclusion of the gita?"

 

Which of your's demonstrate that the following is not the goal?

 

The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

 

 

I am not a pundit but the goal is the goal.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"---you are "a "self also if you do not engage and you sleep all day long"

 

In shushupti one is in the Self sans the conciousness to realize that one is in the Self. There are Rig Veda shrutis to prove this.

 

I have already posted that shruti in some thread.

 

Effort is to be in the Self while awake. But in the waking state, it is a herculean task since the mind attaches to objects like a jumping monkey.

 

THe effort is to bear the mind 100% on the Lord continously.

 

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

"---you are "a "self also if you do not engage and you sleep all day long"

 

 

In shushupti one is in the Self sans the conciousness to realize that one is in the Self. There are Rig Veda shrutis to prove this.

 

I have already posted that shruti in some thread.

 

Effort is to be in the Self while awake. But in the waking state, it is a herculean task since the mind attaches to objects like a jumping monkey.

 

THe effort is to bear the mind 100% on the Lord continously.

 

 

 

 

 

Atanu

 

[atanu 0]

 

 

“..the impersonalist hundus who believe that they are god or that they will became god they're actually not united with anything divine.”

 

 

“ ----If you were The Self, the supreme, you were not illuded by maya”

 

 

WRT to the first statement: No Advaitin believes that they are god. God cannot be “are”. It is foolish. For same reasons, no Advaitin also believes that they will become god.

 

WRT to both the first and the second statements:

 

Lying is sin.

 

Show where I have said: I am the Self -- the Supreme?. You create your own points and counterpoints.

 

 

I am this non-eternal maya created body and mind. That is why I feel pain and I argue. My body still subsists on various vasanas and kama towards which the mind goes hither and thither. But I know that the eternal indweller is the Lord. He is all the time there smiling and as a seer. He sees the play of Prakriti bothering this body-mind and He smiles.

 

Krishna has said that He is in everyone. So, you cannot deny this.

 

 

He has also said:

 

Because of perceiving the (same) Self (abiding) in all beings and all beings (abiding) in the (same) Self; a yogi, who is in union with the Self, sees everybeing with an equal eye. (6.29)

 

Those who see Me in everything and see everything in Me, are not separated from Me and I am not separated from them. (6.30)

 

He has also said:

 

Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05)

 

 

The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

 

 

So, I want to be “a yogi, who is in union with the Self”. This is also stated to be the Nirvana in all Upanishads.

 

 

 

 

So, why do you lie that I claim to be the Supreme? Indweller in you is watching -- smiling and telling silently to you: “You have a long way to go”.

 

 

9.22 To those, however, who dwell on Me in single minded worship I guarantee fulfillment of needs and security

 

10.10 To them ever steadfast in loving worship, I give the yoga of understanding by which they attain Me.

 

10.11 Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their heart, destroy the darkness born of ignorance with the effulgent light of knowledge.

 

and,

 

5.16 But in those whose unwisdom is destroyed by wisdom, that wisdom like the sun, reveals the Supreme (Param)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"--wich of your citations demonstrates that 18,66 is not the conclusion of the gita?"

Which of your's demonstrate that the following is not the goal?

The goal (of nirvana) should be sought reaching which one does not come back; thus thinking: In that very primal spirit I take refuge from which this primal manifestation comes forth. (15.04)

------

if for you the nir-vana (=no suffering) is surrendering to krsna and reach vaikunta (=no suffering).. you are respecting and following also 18,66

 

the book is the same, the speaker is the same, the goal is the same

[Guest guest]

In shushupti one is in the Self sans the conciousness to realize that one is in the Self

 

conscious or not.. you are you even when you sleep

 

--

 

THe effort is to bear the mind 100% on the Lord continously.

 

extremely difficult, but necessary..

 

Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation

 

TEXT 65

 

man-mana bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yaji mam namaskuru

mam evaisyasi satyam te

pratijane priyo 'si me

 

SYNONYMS

mat-manah--thinking of Me; bhava--just become; mat-bhaktah--My devotee; mat-yaji--My worshiper; mam--unto Me; namaskuru--offer your obeisances; mam--unto Me; eva--certainly; esyasi--come; satyam--truly; te--to you; pratijane--I promise; priyah--dear; asi--you are; me--Mine.

 

TRANSLATION

Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

[Guest guest]

God cannot be “are”. It is foolish. For same reasons, no Advaitin also believes that they will become god.

••a-dvaita.. means no discrimination.. if you follow advaita you think that coming out of maya you see that the existence is undifferentiated. So if you think that there's no difference between you, the subordinate, and the supreme, you are believing that you are supreme

 

That is why I feel pain and I argue

••feeling and relationating exist also in the absolute.. otherwise the absolute should be incomplete

 

Krishna has said that He is in everyone. So, you cannot deny this.

••the interpretation is that everyone is his part and parcel and that he's together with us atmas as paramatma

 

 

[atanu 0]

"••a-dvaita.. ........ you are believing that you are supreme"

 

No, you all distort Advaita, trying to show that Advaitins are full of Ego.

 

It is other way round. We believe Brahman is one. We do not at all say that the small I is Brahman.

 

The Upanishadic dictum: I am Brahman, does not mean Atanu is Brahman.

 

It means that Brahman is I of Atanu and Atanu's aham is unreal.

 

[atanu 0]

"conscious or not.. you are you even when you sleep"

 

In deep sleep do you know yourself?

 

If in dream less sleep you still know yourself, then you are one of a kind.

[Guest guest]

It means that Brahman is I of Atanu and Atanu's aham is unreal.

••so you think that you are not atanu but the whole.... so god

(if you exist and you feel to exist you cannot be unreal.. and if you were unreal there should be a part of god not real, blissful, conscious and eternal.. and it is obviously wrong)

 

In deep sleep do you know yourself?

•are you speaking about being or knowing to be? decide..

[Guest guest]

"••so you think that you are not atanu but the whole.... so god

(if you exist and you feel to exist you cannot be unreal.. and if you were unreal there should be a part of god not real, blissful, conscious and eternal.. and it is obviously wrong)"

 

Yes "I am" is sat. "I am this" is not. Associating I with this or that is wrong.

 

 

 

"In deep sleep do you know yourself?

•are you speaking about being or knowing to be? decide.. "

 

Do not use words now. I have answered to your point that one knows oneself during sleep.

 

Obviously, it is related to knowing to be. But though one exists, the universe does not.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes funny.

 

You think you are speaking and I think it is Prakriti.

 

While claiming to abide by Gita, you forget it all the time.

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

Yes "I am" is sat. "I am this" is not. Associating I with this or that is wrong.

•••if the "I am" is sat it seems that you agree that individuality also is sat... so "you are" an eternal spiritual soul part of sri krsna.. nothing's wrong

 

Do not use words now. I have answered to your point that one knows oneself during sleep.

••i know myself even when i am sleeping

 

But though one exists, the universe does not.

••for you i am a part of the universe.. i exist even if you do not know me and even if you think that you sometimes have no consciousness of your existence

[Guest guest]

You think you are speaking and I think it is Prakriti.

••willing and acting is a feature of the life.. and the life is the soul, not the matter

 

While claiming to abide by Gita, you forget it all the time.

••you are not a big help in teaching gita to me..

[atanu 0]

“•••if the "I am" is sat it seems that you agree that individuality also is sat... so "you are" an eternal spiritual soul part of sri krsna.. nothing's wrong”

 

 

 

I do not agree that individuality is sat. Individuality is based on reactions to Gunas. One like sweet one likes salt is that individuality? Please define what individuality is and where it resides – in mind or in body or elsewhere. In what respect it is different from super soul.

 

Bhagwan has said the following:

 

The imperishable Supreme Self, being beginningless and without Gunas, though dwelling in the body (as Atma) neither does anything nor gets tainted, O Arjuna. (13.31)

 

Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

 

As the air takes away the aroma from the source (or flower), similarly Atma takes the six sensory faculties from the physical body it casts off (during death) to the (new physical) body it acquires (in reincarnation by the power of Karma). (15.08)

 

Relinquishing egotism, violence, pride, lust, anger, and desire for possession; free from the notion of "my", and peaceful; one becomes fit for attaining oneness with Brahman. (18.53)

 

 

 

 

What is individuality (so called jivatma)? It only subsists on sense organs and mind as stated in 15.07.

 

 

 

 

By devotion one truly understands what and who I am in essence. Having known Me in essence, one immediately merges into Me. (18.55)

 

 

And my dear friend what Krishna is in essence?

 

bhokt˜raÕ yajñatapas˜Õ

sarvalokamahesvaram |

suh®daÕ sarvabh¨t˜n˜Õ

jñ˜tv˜ m˜Õ þ˜ntim®cchati

om tatsaditi þrŸmad bhagavadgŸt˜s¨paniÿatsu

brahmavidy˜y˜Õ yogaþ˜stre þrŸk®ÿõ˜rjunasaÕv˜de

sanny˜sayogo n˜ma pañcamo'dhy˜ya× ( 5|29)||

Please note: sarvalokamahesvaram

 

Bhagavad-gita 13.23

 

 

upadrastanumanta ca

bharta bhokta mahesvarah

paramatmeti capy ukto

dehe 'smin purusah parah

 

Translation: "In this body there is transcendental enjoyer who is the Lord, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as the mahesvarah "

 

 

Also read below to know that Krishna is none other than Mahesvara.

 

yo mam ajam anadim ca vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu sarva-papaih pramucyate

 

He alone who knows Me as unborn, beginningless, and as Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller of all the worlds, is undeluded among mortals and freed from all sins

 

 

 

So, if the supreme Brahman resides in everyone’s heart and if Jivatma is due to association with the causes of Gunas, then why cannot one ness be attained?

 

 

One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana. (5.24).

 

Please note “---such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana”.

 

Please also note:

 

The non-dualists, who adore Me as abiding in all beings, abide in Me irrespective of their mode of living. (6.31).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say:

 

 

“••for you i am a part of the universe.. i exist even if you do not know me and even if you think that you sometimes have no consciousness of your existence”

 

 

We have gone through this before. But I will repeat, do not compare your waking state and my shushupti state just to avoid conceding the point.

 

The point is that in Shushupti, universe does not exist. In Shushupti, although I exist, I do not know of my individuality nor do I know of you. And this question of knowing about your existence does not arise since the first nominative case I is not there.

 

In turiya state the universe vanishes but the consciousness remains as one I. Gita states as below:

 

 

Brahman is the oblation. Brahman is the clarified butter. The oblation is poured by Brahman into the fire of Brahman. Brahman shall be realized by the one who considers everything as (a manifestation or) an act of Brahman. (Also see 9.16) (4.24)

Knowing that, O Arjuna, you shall not again get deluded like this. By this knowledge you shall behold the entire creation in your own Self/Lord, or in Brahman. (See also 6.29) (4.35)

They, whose mind and intellect are absorbed in the Self, who remain firmly attached with the Self, who have Self as their supreme goal, whose sins (or impurities) have been destroyed by the knowledge, do not take birth again. (5.17)

 

One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana. (5.24).

 

 

[atanu 0]

To your header “an unreal man who speaks.. funny!”,

 

 

I wrote:

 

You think you are speaking and I think it is Prakriti.

 

 

 

You replied:

 

••willing and acting is a feature of the life. and the life is the soul, not the matter

 

 

My reply

 

 

Again contradiction. Krsna has said that Prakriti alone acts through senses.

 

 

 

All works are being done by the Gunas of prakriti, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer. (3.27)

 

 

Those who perceive that all works are done by the (Gunas of) Prakriti alone, and thus they are not the doer, they truly understand. (13.29)

 

 

 

So, the question of unreality does not arise. The speaking is done by the gunas of Prakriti and not by my body-mind, which is insentient.

 

 

You still think that this body-mind of yours is debating.

 

 

Please read more:

 

The imperishable Supreme Self, being beginningless and without Gunas, though dwelling in the body (as Atma) neither does anything nor gets tainted, O Arjuna. (13.31)

 

They, who understand the difference between the creation (or the body) and the creator (or the Atma) and know the technique of liberation (of Jeeva) from the trap of Maya with the help of knowledge, attain the Supreme. (13.34)

 

 

When visionaries perceive no doer other than the Gunas (or the power of Brahman), and know That which is above and beyond the Gunas; then they attain nirvana.

 

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

I do not agree that individuality is sat. Individuality is based on reactions to Gunas.

••if there's individuality in this world, there's also in the absolute... absolute cannot be less than the relative. Saguna means that you have gunas (sat cit ananda) also in the spiritual world

 

Please define what individuality is and where it resides – in mind or in body or elsewhere

••in the soul.. the soul is individual

 

In what respect it is different from super soul.

••supersoul is supreme and he's the master and source of maya.. individual soul is not supreme because he can fall victim of maya

 

[Guest guest]

You replied:

••willing and acting is a feature of the life. and the life is the soul, not the matter

My reply

Again contradiction. Krsna has said that Prakriti alone acts through senses.

--who said that in the absolute there's material senses? in the absolute there's spiritual senses

 

All works are being done by the Gunas of prakriti, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer. (3.27)

••prakriti is no acting by itself, prakriti is acting because the guna avataras, and ultimately krsna through them, are giving energy.. you desire, they give energy, your body acts

 

You still think that this body-mind of yours is debating

••i am very sure that you are not doing the same but using other parts of your body to think and answer

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

To abc

 

“••if there's individuality in this world, there's also in the absolute.”

 

 

 

My dear Guest your logic is shattering to say the least. You have been reciting this like parrot for such a long time without realizing what you are telling.

 

 

So, there is raping in this world. There is murder, theft, larceny, lust, dowry death, hatred, fear, exploitation and what not. So, all these are there in the absolute Brahman also.

 

 

Baby you make cry.

 

 

Scriptures say that Brahman is taintless, unchanging and eternal. You people do not understand that variety that you are talking about has to have a beginning and cannot be eternal. Variety comes and goes.

 

I know you will use zig-zag type of language to justify this also.

 

 

 

 

“••in the soul.. the soul is individual”

“••supersoul is supreme and he's the master and source of maya.. individual soul is not supreme because he can fall victim of maya”

 

 

So, your “soul” or Jivatma is nothing but Maya bound entity. I call it Aham – the I sense. It is same since the I sense is individuality. So, please do not call it soul. Call it Jiva.

 

And then read again:

 

Bhagavad-gita 13.23

 

 

upadrastanumanta ca

bharta bhokta mahesvarah

paramatmeti capy ukto

dehe 'smin purusah parah

 

Translation: "In this body there is transcendental enjoyer who is the Lord, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as the mahesvarah "

 

 

Also read below to know that Krishna is none other than Mahesvara.

 

yo mam ajam anadim ca vetti loka-mahesvaram

asammudhah sa martyesu sarva-papaih pramucyate

 

He alone who knows Me as unborn, beginningless, and as Mahesvara, the Supreme Controller of all the worlds, is undeluded among mortals and freed from all sins

 

 

 

So, if the supreme Brahman resides in everyone’s heart and if Jivatma is due to association with the causes of Gunas, then why cannot one ness be attained?

 

 

One who finds happiness with the Self, who rejoices the Self within, and who is illuminated by the Self-knowledge; such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana. (5.24).

 

Please note “---such a yogi becomes one with Brahman and attains supreme nirvana”.

 

Please also note:

 

The non-dualists, who adore Me as abiding in all beings, abide in Me irrespective of their mode of living. (6.31).

 

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

To your earlier statement

"••willing and acting is a feature of the life. and the life is the soul, not the matter

I had replied

Again contradiction. Krsna has said that Prakriti alone acts through senses.

 

And you replied

--who said that in the absolute there's material senses? in the absolute there's spiritual senses"

 

 

I ask: I cannot understand what is the connection between “Prakriti acting through senses – as Bhagwan says” and your statement “in the absolute there's material senses? in the absolute there's spiritual senses”

 

 

To my reference to

 

All works are being done by the Gunas of prakriti, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer. (3.27)

 

You say

 

"••prakriti is no acting by itself, prakriti is acting because the guna avataras, and ultimately krsna through them, are giving energy.. you desire, they give energy, your body acts"

 

 

My comment

 

Ok. prakriti is acting because the guna avataras, and ultimately krsna through them.

 

Now, whose desire is it? Is desiring not acting? Is desire also not due to act of Prakriti?

 

 

Bhagwan Krsna says that Jivas have Maheswara as the seer within. Bhagwan says identify with the seer and watch acts of Prakriti dispassionately. And acts include all instinctive and mental acts like willing and desiring etc.

 

 

 

 

"You still think that this body-mind of yours is debating

••i am very sure that you are not doing the same but using other parts of your body to think and answer"

 

 

Mind-body is insentient. Mind cannot think of its own. Mind thinks with borrowed intelligence. Body cannot act of its own.

 

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

be serious

[Guest guest]

"Be serious"

 

Well. It is a difficult task --- with you. Smile comes automatically.

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

happyly smiling but serious in spiritual research is allright