How old is Lord Ganesh?

[Guest guest]

My tamil lecturer said that Lord ganesh is not given anywere in Vedas. In Tamilnadu ganesh was not worshipped until 7th century when Narashima pallava ransacked vatabi and bought a ganesh idol from there. That is how ganesh worship spread in Tamilnadu, he said.

 

I pointed out that Lord ganesh wrote Mahabharatha, but he said that is an aryan later day fiction. When I pointed out Avvayar singing about ganesh, he said that there are many avvayars and the versions we see about ganesh were sung by an avvayar of 12th century.

 

He challenged me to show any vedic quote on ganesh or proof that he was worshipped anywere in Tamilnadu before Pallava period of 7th century.

 

Kindly help me out

 

[barney 0]

The image of Ganapati and His mantra Aum constantly remind us of the reality of the great identity. Man truly is the image of the cosmos. All realization lies within himself. Through the study of his inner impulses and of his inner structure, he can understand the nature of the universe. Lord Vighneshvara assures the freedom from fear. He instills the knowledge necessary to remove the fear inherent in time and duration. What power lies hidden in the mystic Aum, the sound symbol of Ganapati, and which is uttered at the beginning of every rite! Its meaning is expressed in Aum Tat Sat and represents the fundamental identity of the macrocosm and the microcosm.

The swastika forms the graphic symbol of Ganapati. It is represented by a cross, being the development of the multiple from the basic unity, the central point; but each of its branches is bent so that it does not aim at the center. This is intended to show that man cannot reach the basic unity directly through the outward forms of the universe.

YMNS OF THE VEDAS EXTOL GANAPATI, THE LORD of the Ganas, attendants of Siva. The most famous verse to Ganapati is from the great hymn Sri Rudram found in the Yajur Veda Samhita (and Rig Veda 2.23.1).

Gananam tva ganapating havamahe

[traditionally chanted ganapati gm]

kavinkavinam upamashravastamam,

jyeshtharajam brahmanam brahmanaspata

a nah shrinvan nutibhih sida sadanam

The Deity who is hailed as the chief of the celestial hosts (Ganapati) here is called Brahmanaspati. However, the descriptive epithets applied to Him are apposite as well to the elephant-faced God as Kavinkavinam, the Seer of seers, Ganapati being the God of wisdom par excellence, and Jyeshtharajam, the Vinayaka commanding precedence over others.

Also, in the Ganesha Pancharatna by Shri Shri Shri Adi Sankara is found the line: kaladharavatamsakam, "He who dons the crescent," which attribute is also applied to Siva. The Vedas assign Him a special place amongst the Gods. He was propitiated to bestow success and enjoyment and to avert obstacles and calamities. Various prayers to Ganesha are recorded in the Vedic texts. He is invoked as the Law of laws, the Seer of seers and the Principal of principals in the verse above, as translated below:

O Ganapati, the Seer of seers, unrivalled in wealth, King of elders, Principal of principals. Hear us and take Thy place, bringing with Thee all enjoyments.

In Shatapatha Brahmana 10.4.56, the Son of God, "a second myself," dvitiya atma, is spoken of as mithuna: the "word not spoken." God's unspoken word is internal and unmanifest. Ganesha thus came to be recognized as the "God Word." The Son is the testimony of the immanence of God being generated eternally. Ganesha reflects the wisdom of His Father and is the repository of the word of God Siva.

In the Taittiriya Aranyaka is a clear reference to Ganapati as Dantim (tusker). This word occurs in the Gayatri sacred to Ganapati:

Tanno dantih pracodayat.

Let that Tusker illumine our thoughts.

In the beginning is the Word. That Word is Aum, and the resonance of Aum is heard everywhere. Aum Tat Sat. That is what It is. So declare the Vedagamas.

That word is Aum.

This syllable is the imperishable spirit,

This indeed is the highest end.

Knowing this syllable, truly indeed,

Whatsoever one desires will be his....

That is the Supreme Support,

Knowing that support,

One becomes happy in the Brahma world.

Katha Upanishad 2.15-16

This audible symbol Aum serves as a support of contemplation. One infers the unseen in the seen, the unheard in the heard.

Dr. Ananda Coomaraswamy

We sing in praise of Him

Who is the essence of Omkaram.

Satguru Yogaswami's Natchintanai

The Causal Word, Aum, represents the divine thought, the source of existence. It corresponds to the power of will, known as Siva Intention, or icchha shakti. The power of knowledge known as Vishnu Formulation, or jnana shakti, and the power of action known as Brahma Expression, or kriya shakti, also express the Causal Word, Aum

Omkara signifies the Supreme Siva, being both vyashti (individual) and samashti (cosmic). Thus, Ganesha Aum, the divine son of Siva, is the support of the whole universe. His sound-symbol Aum is indestructible in past, present and future. It is immortal and ageless. He is ever Pillaiyar, the cherished child of Uma-Parameshvara. By meditating on Him in the three aspects of A-U-M, devotees can realize the reality of the Godhead. The mahavakya Aum Tat Sat implies "That is what it is," and it is transmuted into the form of Ganesha. He embodies the Truth of Tat Tvam Asi, "Thou art That."

Everything that our mind can grasp can be expressed in terms of kind, or category. So, category is a fundamental element of existence. All that can be counted or comprehended is a category (gana). The principle of classifications through which the relations can be understood between different orders of things, between the macrocosm and the microcosm, is called the Lord of Categories. He is Ganapati.

Mahaganapati is the ruler of all the categories and can be identified with Divinity in its perceptible manifestation. He guards the first approach to life and all its manifold unfoldment. The principle of categories transcends intellect. As the Lord of categories, Ganapati rules over the universal intellect and the principles of the elements (tattvas) derived from it.

It is noteworthy that Ganapati is sometimes identified with Brihaspati, the patron of letters. Mythologically, He is the scribe who writes down the scriptures. He figures as the scribe of Sage Vyasa, the author of the Mahabharata.

You, leader of categories,

are the writer of this Mahabharata.

Mahabharata 1.1.77

In Ganesha Hindus perceive one of the basic concepts of Hindu mythological symbolism: the identity of the macrocosm and the microcosm. In our religious tradition, the remembrance of the divinity of man and the immanence of God must be present before the doer of any action. In this way a Hindu learns to bow to Ganesha at every turn. Not only is He worshiped at the beginning of every undertaking, but He guards the entrance of every house, of every temple and business establishment in the land of the Hindus. Aum Ganesha is what He is: the master guide of devotees to realize their Divinity.

True knowledge is the realization of this unity which Ganesha signifies. Aum is commonly attributed to the form of Ganesha, the Lord of the Pranava Mantra, even though the three letters A-U-M signify a number of God's names when taken separately. A stands for Virat, Agni, and Vishva. U stands for Hiranyagarbha, Vayu and Taijasa. M represents Ishvara, Aditya and Prajna.

Virat is the all-comprehensive universe of being. Agni is the primary element of all sacrificial ceremonies. Vishva means God Siva, since the whole universe and the objects in the universe are manifested and are sheltered in Him. He pervades all of them. Hiranyagarbha is One who is the source and support of all light and luminous bodies as the sun, moon and stars. Vayu means one who is the life and support of the universe, the cause of its dissolution. Taijasa is one who is resplendent and gives light to the sun and other luminous bodies. Ishvara is one whose knowledge and power are infinite. Aditya means immortal. Prajna denotes one whose knowledge is perfect and one who is omniscient.

Thus, the sacred syllable Aum combines within itself some of the most sublime names of the Supreme Being, and connotes His omnipotent and omniscient nature and attributes. Aum thus represents, in its fullest connotation, God Siva, the Supreme Being.

Aksharam Brahma Paramam

Svabhavo Adhyatmam uchyate.

Bhagavad Gita 8.3

Brahman is spoken of as Akshara: that which is imperishable and inexhaustible. Saint Auvaiyar also referred to Akshara, meaning eternal wisdom, in her famous poem on Vinayaka. Krishna tells Arjuna in the following verse that he who leaves the body reflecting on Aum reaches the goal of beatific bliss, paramam gatira.

Aum Ityekaksharam Brahma

Vyaharan mam anusmaran

Yah prayati tyajan deham

Sa yati paramam gatim.

Bhagavad Gita 8.13

Aum is the Ekakshara, the one-syllable mantra of the Para Sivato, the word not spoken. Mantra is that which redeems when contemplated upon:

Mananat thrayate iti mantra.

(The Son of Siva, Ganesha, being) "a second myself," came to be recognized as the God Word Aum.

When we chant the Pranava Aum -- the harmonious combination of the three basic sounds, akara, ukara and makara -- the microcosmic activity links with the entire macrocosmic activity of the cosmos, which represents the all-pervading Reality of Parashiva.

Akara sound is produced from the base of the spinal cord, where the kundalini is posited, and rises to the throat. The supreme consciousness (chaitanya), functioning through the gross body in the waking state in the individual, is called vaishvanara and is represented by the first syllable, A. Ukara is the second stage, where the sound from the throat is rolled outwards to the tip of the tongue. The same supreme consciousness, functioning through the subtle body in the dream state in the individual, is called taijasa, and is represented by the second syllable, U. This makara sound is concentrated at the lips. This same supreme consciousness, functioning through the causal body in the deep sleep state in the individual, is called prajna, and is represented by the final syllable, M, in AUM.

The significance of the Aum mantra is also brought out lucidly in the sikshavalli of the Taittiriya Upanishad:

Aum iti Brahma, Aum iti idam sarvam

Aum ity etad anukriti, Aum iti samani gayanti (1.8).

And in the Chhandogya Upanishad:

Aum ityetadaksharam Udgitham upasita

Aum iti Hyudgayati tasyopa Vyakhyanam (2.23.3).

The image of Ganapati and His mantra Aum constantly remind us of the reality of the great identity. Man truly is the image of the cosmos. All realization lies within himself. Through the study of his inner impulses and of his inner structure, he can understand the nature of the universe. Lord Vighneshvara assures the freedom from fear. He instills the knowledge necessary to remove the fear inherent in time and duration. What power lies hidden in the mystic Aum, the sound symbol of Ganapati, and which is uttered at the beginning of every rite! Its meaning is expressed in Aum Tat Sat and represents the fundamental identity of the macrocosm and the microcosm.

The swastika forms the graphic symbol of Ganapati. It is represented by a cross, being the development of the multiple from the basic unity, the central point; but each of its branches is bent so that it does not aim at the center. This is intended to show that man cannot reach the basic unity directly through the outward forms of the universe.

 

 

[brinthan 0]

<<..My tamil lecturer said that Lord ganesh is not given anywere in Vedas..>>

 

Did your tamil lectuer say that Vedas were written by Dravidians or something?

[Guest guest]

http://www.kamakoti.org/shlokas/kshlok3.htm

[Guest guest]

Description of Ganapati in the Vedas

 

We find the description of Ganapati in many contexts in the Vedas, undisputedly the most ancient literature. Other deities such as Mitravarunas, Maruts, Indra - Upendras etc., mentioned in the Vedas are seldom mentioned in subsequent treatises such as the Puranas. But Ganapati has been worshipped since time immemorial till today.

 

"Ganaanaam tvaa ganapatim havaamahe....." is a popular hymn found both in the Rigveda and the Yajurveda. This mantra indicates that Ganapati is not only the head of the Ganas, but also of the Brahmas. The Ganapati Sooktas of Samaveda echo the same idea. In the Atharvana Veda, there is a separate Upanishad dedicated to Ganapati. It is called as Ganapati Atharva Sheersha Upanishad. There are nine other Upanishads such as Ganesha Poorva Taapini Upanishad, Uttara Taapini Upanishad etc. Vallabheshopanishat and Herambhopanishat are also available. In addition to these, there is Ganesha Geeta containing eleven chapters.

 

Upanishads are parts of the Vedas that deliberate on the Ultimate Truth. They elucidate the way of achieving the Paratattwa through both Saguna and Nirguna methods. Ganapati Atharva Sheersha Upanishad first narrates about Nirguna form of worship and then about the Saguna form of worship. While describing the Saguna form of worship, the Upanishad has also revealed the significance of the various aspects of the manifest form of Ganapati.

 

The Ganesha Upanishad has given us valuable mantras like 'Ganesha Ekakshari Mantra', 'Saptakshari Mantra', 'Ganesha Gayatri' and has thereby provided guidance to Tantra Shastras which have Upasana (intent practice of worship) as their theme.By stating that Lord Ganapati always resides in the Mooladhara Chakra, the Upanishad has established a relation between Yoga Shastra and Tantra Shastra.

 

Considering all these aspects, the Tantra Shastras have said that the important Beejaksharas of Ganapati are Gam and Gloum. 'Ga' is the symbol for the fundamental principle of Ganapati. Lakara (the seed letter Lam) is the Beejakshara of Mooladhara Chakra. Omkara is the modified form of Pranava. Therefore it can be said that the seed letter - Gloum, represents the combination of Ganapati Tattwa, Mooladhara Yoga Tattva and the Nirguna Pranava Tattva.

 

Based on the description available in the Vedas, the later scriptures - the Puranas - have given us an exhaustive description of the meditative form of Ganapati and His legend.

 

 

and here is the link http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/bhaktimala/september-Bhaktimala/ganapati.html

[Guest guest]

1.From what you have described your tamil Lecturer seems to be a hard core dravidian lunatic ( I may be wrong). I mean Dravidians are not lunatic, but affiliated to Dravidian Politics are.

 

2.Tamil lecturers usually are strongly influenced by Dravidian Politics, and hence they may not be conducive for open arguements.

 

3. Try to ask innocently about lord Subrahmanya and how hos worship spread? Ask if he is worshipped in the Vedas. Also ask him about Nakkerar, if he preceded Pallvas, as there was just one Nakkeerar in Pandya Kingdom.

 

4. Ask about the marriage of Valli to Subrahmaya, and how Ganesh helped him.

 

5. Since Subrahmanya is a Dravidian god, your lecturer cannot say NO.

 

6. Last but not the least, Dont run into arguements with your teacher. If your college has internal system of evaluation you are bound to get affected. Even if it is university evaluation, your lecturer can still take you for a ride. ( I have a lot of personal experience in this regard).

 

7. Please understand that arguements cannot be WON. YOu can only put forth the facts. Its upto the other person to come to a conclusion based on the facts.

[Guest guest]

It is the tradition of the Tamil Poets to begin their work with Kadavul Vazhthu.

 

Even Saint Tirumoolar, starts Tirumantiram ( which is much older than the period of Pallavas mentioned by your Lect.) with Vinayakar Kaappu.

 

This means the practice of Praying to Ganesh was there even for the So called Dravidians before starting any work.

 

See... Now the Hunter becomes Hunted?

 

Your Lect cannot go back on his words.

[brinthan 0]

<<..4. Ask about the marriage of Valli to Subrahmaya, and how Ganesh helped him.

 

5. Since Subrahmanya is a Dravidian god, your lecturer cannot say NO..>

 

my tamil teacher said tat Subrahmanya is a tamil god, and he wasn't married. And when the religion was influenced by aryan, Subrahmanya got 2 wives.

[Guest guest]

Lord Subrahmanya is a vedic god.

And Valli Kalyanam is a popular tamil folk lore.

Villagers will still recall the Theru Koothu of Valli Kalyanam.

 

Muruga ( as he is called in T.Nadu) appears in Tirumannakolam in Two of the Arupadai Veedus in Tamilnadu.

 

And Valli was the daughter of a local tamil hill tribe chief.

 

So I conclude your tamil teacher is also a hard core dravidian politics driven lunatic.

 

As I said already most of the tamil teachers owe to alleigance to Karunanidhi , the worst enemy of Hinduism.

 

 

[Guest guest]

dont make us touchy