It is a pity the vedas had supressed women in many ways.

[barney 0]

Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence. (Manusmriti 9.3)

 

As a child she is supposed to remain in the custody and care of her parents. Once married, she becomes a property and responsibility of her husband, who is supposed to take care of her needs and expectations and keep her in his custody. As his wife, she performs four roles: 1. as his servant (dasi) in duty, 2. as his minister (mantri) in decision making, 3. as a mother (mata) to his children and 4. as a lover (rambha) in his bed. And when she becomes old, she lives in the house of her son or sons and has to lead a very solitary and forlorn life.

 

Historically speaking, whether it was in ancient India or medieval India, the status of women in the subcontinent was never good. A present day woman would feel outraged, and rightly so, if she goes through the contents of the Manusmriti, which is particularly harsh against women and treats them with disdain and suspicion. But we have no evidence to believe that the contents of the book were followed by all sections of the society. Probably the Brahmin women were its worst victims and suffered more compared to women of other castes.

 

That is why I say certain laws in the Vedas has to be done away. Now our leaders of the countries and even the UN wil make legislation which is only applicable may for the next twenty to thirty years but surely such laws would be out dated in another five hundred years coz the living style and habits of people would have changed over the centuries.

 

In the same manner the manusmriti which was given to Manu was some 3000 to 4000 years old. Imagine what the situation would have been. But some of over learned friends here would not agree with me but wheather they like it or not I stil would say there will be diven gurus who would teach people to change their way of thinking and adapt to changes of time. Hinduism is still a beautiful religion if followed moderatly. But there are fanatics in Hinduism to who would not agree with me. Let them be and those who nee changes follow the steps of Saint Vivekananda and Hhis Master coz here you wil find Hinduism at a peaceful state.

[Guest guest]

"It is a pity the vedas had supressed women in many ways. "

 

it is a pity that you are saying false things

 

[Kali_Daughter 0]

What you've stated is true in Indian culture in general,because I know Christian and Muslim Indians who practice those things you've mentioned.Patriarchy is a human phenomenon and as such is the human female burden.

[Guest guest]

when we speak of ages like the starting of the kali yuga or the previous yugas we have to remember that in these days who has power on others was living it as a service to others not as a system to have gratification..

 

we have in these ancient times emperors of the entire world, with relationships with devas from all the universe and the supreme personality of godhead, that, at the 50th years of life, with great detachment , they were ready to leave everything and go living in the forest meditating on the absolute truth 'til the end of life..

 

i would like so much to be a wife "oppressed" by a "maschilist" like that

[barney 0]

Come on, do not be a hypocrate. You read the Manusmriti and tell where I am wrong. As I have said before and I will say it now Hinduism is a great religion but as all religion it has to pass through time and certain laws and rituals in the scriptures ought to be reviewed for reasons such as lapse in time. What can be applied in that yuga cannot be applied at this yuga. During that period the country was ruled by Kings and were at war with neighbouring states or countries. Men will always have to go to war and women were the home makers. The scriptures had outlined laws for such situations but now it is totaly different. We are in the modern age where the county is ruled by government appointed by the people and with the devolopment of technology women too are employed to increase productivity and nation building. Now tell me can manusmriti be applied here? You have to be rational in you thinking, do not be blinded by your fanatical thoughts. I am a Hindu and I know where to draw my line.

[Guest guest]

Come on, do not be a hypocrate

.and you do not make judgements without to be competent

 

As I have said before and I will say it now Hinduism is a great religion but as all religion it has to pass through time and certain laws and rituals in the scriptures ought to be reviewed for reasons such as lapse in time

.so if you decide wich part of religion is good , wich is bad, you actually are the religion. religion means to follow. if you do not follow you have created something new. No problem, but do not say that you belong to a religion that you do not follow anymore

 

What can be applied in that yuga cannot be applied at this yuga.

..and this is already said in vedas, itihasas, puranas, upanishads and so on... and it is also said that it is necessary to surrender to a pure, transcendental spiritual master, who knows the spiritual reality and knows wich, from the vedic instructions is suited for us. So the system of adaptation to desha, kala, patra (place, time, circumstance) is already in the vedas. There's no need of you concocting and criticizing thinking that what now is out of time, was out of time also thousands of years ago.

 

During that period the country was ruled by Kings and were at war with neighbouring states or countries. Men will always have to go to war and women were the home makers

.simply you have zero culture

 

The scriptures had outlined laws for such situations but now it is totaly different.

.yes.. go on..

 

We are in the modern age where the county is ruled by government appointed by the people and with the devolopment of technology women too are employed to increase productivity and nation building. Now tell me can manusmriti be applied here?

..very simple.. scriptures says that in kali yuga we are all mlecchas and yavanas.... no varna and ashram distinction, no sex distinctions. if it is not said in manusmriti it is said in a connected scripture. So no contraddiction, no need for you to concoct something new.

 

You have to be rational in you thinking, do not be blinded by your fanatical thoughts

.also lack of culture of what you say to be your religion is a blinding

 

I am a Hindu and I know where to draw my line.

.no you are following something that suites your tastes that you are calling hinduism

[maadhav 0]

barney,

 

it seems you hate hinduism.

 

twhat the westeren unsuppressdd women do?

roam almost nacked,

engage in sex before marriage and even child hood,

kill their babies before born,

keep etramerital relation even after married,

 

etc.

 

sore, this the vedic culture does not teach.

 

 

[Guest guest]

simply it is not true that vedas had suppressed anyone!!!! veda elevate not suppress... one has to study a little before to speak about vedas... criticizing and declaring himself a hindu

[Guest guest]

The Manusmrithi is not Vedas. There is a lot of confusion s to who wrote up that version of Manu Smrithi. Some say the British inserted a lot of verses to justify their civlising mission in India.

[bhushan 0]

Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence. (Manusmriti 9.3)

 

Ans. Protection doesn't mean supression. Don't try to juggle words. I don't have to explain the duties of women to perform and also dont restrict yourself to only one para or so. If you read Manusmriti fully and properly then you yourself will find the answer why he has written like this.

Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I am not sure of the Vedic times. But in the medivial times, women were suppressed.

 

Sati was prevelant even in the 20th Century.

 

Female infanticide and foeticide is prevelant even now in Some parts of Tamizhnadu.

 

Dowry deaths are prevekent even now.

 

The greatest of all poets Subrahmanya Bharathi himself sung about liberation of Women ( which means, there was a need, which means, they were not liberated).

 

So all hypocrites here, there is no point in getting angry.

There might be very valid reasons to keep the women supressed as liberation of women beyond a certain point leads to the degeneration of the society. But the fact remains, that women were supressed and are suppressed.

[Guest guest]

kali yuga

[Guest guest]

Barney, I'm beginning to think you're not a Hindu at all!

How can you make such a stupid mistake by saying the Manu Smriti is the Vedas? You obviously don't know as much as you try to make out!

 

The Manu Smriti is a SMRITI and is NOT a part of the Vedas but written a long time after! The Vedas a SRUTI and pre-date all other scriptures. SMRITI's change with the time and Manu Smriti is no longer relevant. It's strange that you mentioned Vivekananda's name because even Vivekananda knew this, so don't try to taint his name with your mistakes. Even in the Gita, Sri Krishna clearly says that women are equal, and in case you didn't know two of Hinduism's greatest Sages - Maitreyi and Gargi were FEMALE! So don't you go around spreading false information.

[barney 0]

The Smritis

Next in importance to the Sruti are the Smritis or secondary scriptures. These are the ancient sacred law-codes of the Hindus dealing with the Sanatana-Varnasrama-Dharma. They supplement and explain the ritualistic injunctions called Vidhis in the Vedas. The Smriti or Dharma Sastra is founded on the Sruti. The Smritis are based on the teachings of the Vedas. The Smriti stands next in authority to the Sruti (Vedas). It explains and develops Dharma. It lays down the laws which regulate Hindu national, social, family and individual obligations.

The works that are expressly called Smritis are the law books, Dharma Sastras. Smriti, in a broader sense, covers all Hindu Sastras (scriptures) save the Vedas.

The laws for regulating Hindu society from time to time are codified in the Smritis. The Smritis have laid down definite rules and laws to guide the individuals and communities in their daily conduct and to regulate their manners and customs. The Smritis have given detailed instructions, according to the conditions of the time, to all classes of men regarding their duties in life.

The Hindu learns how he has to spend his whole life from these Smritis. The duties of Varnasramas (the four stages of life) are clearly given in these books. The Smritis describe certain acts and prohibit some others for a Hindu, according to his birth and stage of life. The object of the Smritis is to purify the heart of man and take him gradually to the supreme abode of immortality and make him perfect and free.

These Smritis have varied from time to time. The injunctions and prohibitions of the Smritis are related to the particular social surroundings. As these surroundings and essential conditions of the Hindu society changed from time to time, new Smritis had to be compiled by the sages of different ages and different parts of India.

There are eighteen main Smritis or Dharma Sastras. The most important are those of Manu, Yajnavalkya and Parasara. The other fifteen are those of Vishnu, Daksha, Samvarta, Vyasa, Harita, Satatapa, Vasishtha, Yama, Apastamba, Gautama, Devala, Sankha-Likhita, Usana, Atri and Saunaka.

The Laws of Manu are intended for the Satya Yuga; those of Yajnavalkya are for the Treta Yuga; those of Sankha and Likhita are for the Dvapara Yuga; and those of Parasara are for the Kali Yuga.

The laws and rules which are based entirely upon our social positions, time and clime, must change with the changes in society and changing conditions of time and clime. Then only the progress of the Hindu society can be ensured.

Need For A New Law-Code

(By Swami Shivananda, The Divine Life Society, Rishikesh)

It is not possible to follow some of the laws of Manu at present time. We can follow their spirit and not the letter. Society is advancing. When it advances, it outgrows certain laws which were valid and helpful at a particular stage of its growth. Many new things which were not thought out by the old law-givers have come into existence now. It is no use insisting people to follow now those old laws which have become obsolete.

Our present day society has changed considerably. A new Smriti to suit the requirements of this age is very necessary. Another sage will place before the Hindus of our days a new suitable code of laws. Time is ripe for a new Smriti. Cordial greetings to this age.

 

[barney 0]

The very birth of a Brahmin is an eternal embodiment of dharma: for he is born to fulfill dharma and worthy to become Brahman. He is born as the highest on earth, the lord of all created beings, for the protection of the treasure of dharma. Whatever exists in this world is the property of the Brahmin: on account of the excellence of his origin the Brahmin is entitled to it all. The Brahmin eats but his own food, wears but his own apparel, bestows but his own in alms; other mortals subsist through the benevolence of the Brahmanas.

Manusmirti 1, 98-101.

 

[barney 0]

In his Purport to Bhagavad Gita 16.7 Srila Prabhupad states:

 

Actually, a woman should be given protection at every stage of life. She should be given protection by the father in her younger days, by the husband in her youth, and by the grownup sons in her old age. This is proper social behavior according to the Manu Saàhitä. But modern education has artificially devised a puffed-up concept of manly life, and therefore marriage is practically now an imagination in human society. Nor is the moral condition of woman very good now. The demons, therefore, do not accept any instruction which is good for society, and because they do not follow the experience of great sages and the rules and regulations laid down by the sages, the social condition of the demoniac people is very miserable.

 

We must accept the experience and social injunctions given by the great sages. Women must remain chaste and submissive to their husband. Only when women are of good chaste and submissive character will all of human society become peaceful.

 

The demons, Prabhupad says, do not accept instructions that are good for society. Demons do not follow the experience of the great sages. Therefore they are miserable. A follower of Srila Prabhupad, therefore, must accept these instructions. Prabhupad leaves us no choice. He says that those who do not, they are demons.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture Sept. 13, 1969

 

... In India still, the system is follow(ed) in conservative families that a widow cannot marry. There is no widow marriage in India. They, the... Manu-samhita, the law-givers, the saintly persons, Manu-samhita... Why widow marriage is prohibited? The idea is generally, everywhere, in all countries, the female population is greater than the male population. So the idea is that she has become widow. She was once married. Now if again she is married, another virgin girl, she does not get the chance of being married. Therefore there is no widow marriage according to Hindu scripture. And a man is allowed, if he is, I mean to say able man, he can marry more than one wife. Not that simply marry. To get more than one wife does not mean sense enjoyment. The wife must be maintained very respectfully. She must have good house, good ornaments, good food, good servants,

 

A woman cannot remarry, but a man may take more than one wife. These are the laws and duties prescribed by Krishna. Here Srila Prabhupad states that if a woman who has already been married marries again, she is taking the away the chance for a virgin girl to get a husband. The other way to see this, which is supported by the laws of dharma, is that a man should only marry a girl who is virgin. He should not consider fit for marriage any woman who has been previously married.

 

One point here that has to be mentioned is that Srila Prabhupad has made exception only in the case where the divorced woman comes to Krishna Consciousness. When one becomes a devotee and is initiated in the chanting that becomes a new life. Therefore, Prabhupad gave some concession. Even the girl may have been married, or had association with other men, once she became a devotee that was considered her past life. Now she was to be trained in chastity and could be married by a devotee man who would accept her. In any other circumstance, however, this is not to be accepted.

 

There is one point that I would like to offer in this connection. It is important that the husband and wife be of equal character and quality. I would like to say that there are some men who will only be happy with not only a chaste girl for a wife, but they also want that she be a virgin. Many girls would also prefer to marry a man who was somewhat restrained. Sometimes, after marrying the man finds out that the girl may have had many relationships with other men and this can adversely affect their relationship. He may feel dissatisfied (or as a popular expression, he feels cheated having received damaged goods). When some problems arise he may see this as an excuse to get out of the relationship. What my point is, is that if it is of a great concern to either one or both of the parties, this should be presented before any final arrangement is made. It can and would save a lot of misery in the future.

 

Manu Samhita states that a man can reject a wife who is not virgin if the father who gave her did not inform him prior to the arrangement. (Or if she has some long-term illness, or other physical or mental defect which was not revealed prior to final arrangement).

 

It is advised that a brahmana not accept a wife who is not pure or who is defective (at least as his first wife). However, if the father has informed the man that the girl is no longer virgin (or has some other defect) and the man agrees to marry her, than he can no longer reject her on that account.

 

The point is that according to Manu these things should be disclosed prior to making any final arrangements.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 7:11: 28, Purport

 

 

[Guest guest]

so what's the problem? see things in the context...

[barney 0]

Hindus are divided by such orthodox people like you. You are no different from the fanatical Muslims and Christians. No one knows thereal truth and holding on to your belief would further divide the unity of Hinduism. In Hinuism there is many ways to discover the truth but you believe that only through Krishna the world would be a safe place. Gita was for the that particular period and there were messengers after that yuga and so on until now. There will be changes and new revelation for this yuga and the next. Nothing is forever. Changes has to be made to accomadate and that is why Buddha came and the Brahmin Hindus hated for that. Every relgion will go through changes like Judaism where Christ came to change Torah and so will there be someone who will come to make changse to the Hadis and Koran. Do not be blinded by your ignorance and call others fool because others too will be calling you fool. By asking me what is the problem, is like asking me why do you care.

 

I have seen in this post the Vaishavas and HK's against Advaitas and other form of worship. Do you think Saints like Swami Ramakrishna, Saint Ramalingam, Saint Manakivasagar, Saint Appar and many others fromm the south are not divine? Are they not spritual masters? You must be either ignorant or just do not know what is the difference between spritual path and religion.

[Guest guest]

Hindus are divided by such orthodox people like you

••a religion comes from some sacred scriptures if you are ever putting them in discussion what's the use to call yourself a believer of such religion? you do not like manu smriti, you do not like bhagavad gita, you discuss the role of women in vedas... you call yourself hindu.. on wich basis?

 

You are no different from the fanatical

••fanaticals want to erase differences

 

No one knows thereal truth and holding on to your belief would further divide the unity of Hinduism.

••hinduism that you do not follow because you do not like his scriptures

 

In Hinuism there is many ways to discover the truth but you believe that only through Krishna the world would be a safe place.

••this is not my problem... i only do not like to hear that i have forcibly to belong to a group with people with different beliefs. I am for freedom, you are you, me is me, if there's a group it has to be based on real and solid basis. Otherwise for me there's no need to have a label or a uniform to feel myself your brother.... maybe you need, but this is materialism, not religion.

 

Gita was for the that particular period

••gita is considered the main scripture of hinduism... are you hinduist?

 

There will be changes and new revelation for this yuga and the next. Nothing is forever

••religion is eternal, otherwise it is not a religion, new revelations add or confirm, they do not negate or erase

 

Changes has to be made to accomadate and that is why Buddha came and the Brahmin Hindus hated for that.

••because that brahmins were irreligious and not expert in vedas, they didn't saw that buddah only apparently was bringing a new thing, actually he was starting to restoring the real message of vedas

 

Christ came to change Torah

••no, christ came to perfectionate the torah, to add something, not to negate it

 

Do not be blinded by your ignorance and call others fool because others too will be calling you fool

••you are actually calling me fool because i do not accept your ideas, i have no problem if you are different, i am not disturbed, i discuss and discussing i check my ideas

 

By asking me what is the problem, is like asking me why do you care.

••the real problem is that the author you have criticized (bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada) were also giving brahminic initiation and gayatri mantra to women, he has women as leaders of his movement and he say that if we see us on the trancscendental plane there's no sex differences. So if you read everything of a writer you get the true idea of his writings, if you take out some phrases from the context it is more difficult.

 

I have seen in this post the Vaishavas and HK's against Advaitas and other form of worship.

••no, not against... different ideas and personally i do not think that advaita is the position who reconciles everything, advaita (all is one) and vaishnavism (we are one with god in quality but different in quantity) are different conceptions, not that vaishnavism is partial and when one is more advanced he become advaita. And if this is considered the concept of hinduism, well i am not hindu, because for me advaita is opposite to my concept. And we are not speaking of details, we disagree on who is absolute and advaitin says that krsna or vishnu are forms created by maya and beyond them there's something else more perfect. How can i agree? I appreciate, i leave the freedom, but i am not in this company.

 

Do you think Saints like Swami Ramakrishna, Saint Ramalingam, Saint Manakivasagar, Saint Appar and many others fromm the south are not divine? Are they not spritual masters?

•••i judge one by one, i have not dogmas, vedas have teached to me that i have to judge with my mind and culture not to accept dogmas

 

You must be either ignorant or just do not know what is the difference between spritual path and religion.

•••spiritual path is the "path to reach the absolute", religion is from a latin word "re-ligo" (very similar to "yoga"), reunite, so religion means "reunion with the absolute".

 

answer please if you want

[brinthan 0]

Women were being treated very badly in India. Specially in North India, women were shaved their heads, and left to sleep on a rough concrete floor without a pillow, they were given rice and salt to eat, and etc. That's the reason why they commit suicide on the fire of their husbands' body were burning. They didn't want to suffer for 30 or 40 years.

 

Besides, not only in India women were being treated badly. We can see, even nowadays how women in Islam are being treated. And if we dig out the history of christians in europe, we can see how they were testing an innocent woman's virginity, and their infidility.

[Guest guest]

Barney,

 

DO NOT assume I'm an HK. I take my inspiration from more than one Swami or Sage of which Vivekananda is one of them. I'm not a fanatic and do know what I'm talking about, so leave your prejudice out of this. The main point I was making is that Manu Smriti was a lawbook at a particular period in time used in only certain parts of India (mainly the North) and it is NOT a part of the Vedas. You tried to make out that the Vedas was the problem, while quoting from Manu Smriti as if it was a part of the Vedas, this is both wrong and misleading for those who are unfamiliar.

 

I think the Gita is relevant for all times, most Hindus will agree, it is the most popular Hindu scripture and can be seen as a summary of the Upanishads or divine revelations (or confirmations of what was spiritually true) from God as Sri Krishna. I'm surprised you don't share this view, thinking it's only suitable for one time. I believe all the Sages you mentioned were true spiritual masters, who had direct experience of God, whichever path they followed. So don't follow your assumptions.

[barney 0]

Women should always be worshipped

and treated with affection.

The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva, Section XLVI

 

Bhishma said: Respect, kind treatment and everything else that is agreeable, should all be given unto the maiden whose hand is taken in marriage. Her sire and brothers and father-in-law and husband’s brothers should show her every respect and adorn her with ornaments. If they be desirous of reaping benefits, for such conduct on their part always leads to considerable happiness and advantage. Women should always be worshipped and treated with affection. There where women are treated with respect, the very deities are said to be filled with joy.

 

There where women are not worshipped, all acts become fruitless. If the women of a family, in consequence of the treatment they receive, grieve and shed tears, that family soon becomes extinct. Those houses that are cursed by women meet with destruction and ruin as if scorched by some Atharvan rite. Such houses lose their splendour. Their growth and prosperity cease.

 

Women are weak. They fall an easy prey to the seductive wiles of men, disposed to accept the love that is offered to them, and devoted to truth. There are others among them that are full of malice, covetous of honours, fierce in disposition, unlovable and impervious to reason. Women, however, deserve to be honoured.

 

Do ye men show them honour. The righteousness of men

depends upon women. All pleasures and enjoyments also

completely depend upon them. Do ye serve them and worship them. Do ye bend your wills before them.

 

The begetting of offspring, the nursing of children already born, and the accomplishment of all acts necessary for the needs of society, behold, all these have women for their cause. By honouring women, ye are sure to attain to the fruition of all objects.

 

In this connection a princess of the house of Janaka the ruler of the Videhas, sang a verse. It is this: Women have no sacrifices ordained for them. There are no Sraddhas which they are called upon to perform. They are not required to observe any facts. To serve their husbands with reverence and willing obedience is their only duty. Through the discharge of that duty they succeed in conquering heaven.

 

In childhood, the sire protects her. The husband protects her in youth. When she becomes old, her sons protect her. At no period of her life does woman deserve to be free.

 

Deities of prosperity are women. The persons that desire

prosperity should honour them. By cherishing women, one

cherishes the goddess of prosperity herself, and by afflicting her, one is said to afflict the goddess of prosperity.

_

 

From The Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva, Section CLXII

 

Bhishma said:

As the sacred fire waits for libations to be poured upon it when the hour for Homa arrives, even so a woman, when her functional period is over, expects an act of congress with her husband. One that never approaches one's spouse at any other time save after the functional period, is said to observe the vow of Brahmacharya.

_