Very Good Hinduism v Vaishanavaism

[barney 0]

So, now we have a splinter group. Vaishanavaism is not Hinduism in that case shall I call for a boycot of Vaishanvaism sect. Shall I say please do not allow any Vaishanavas into non Vaishnavas temple? Stop all HK members and Vishnu bakthars from entering into the compound of non Vaishnava's temple ground from propagation, selling books, collection donations or of any activities by Vaishanavas? Don't you think this would start something new do divide the Hindus?

 

Surely not coz if you can think you would no ask any non Vaishnavas not to participated in your thread. You are a selfish, egoistic moron. The batte is against Hindus and non Hindus not Hindus among Hindus. The Muslims say there is no other God other than ALLAH and here you are saying NARAYAN is the only God whereas we Hindus say all forms belongs to him and only him. Now the Muslims say you are a non believer and that you should be killed shall we support them or protect you and your comrades? Be realistic and truthful. We want to know where do your kind stand. To us HINDUS we follow the Vedas and respect all forms of the Supreme Brahman but you want to break away calling your belief Vaishanavaism so in that case you want to break Hinduism into smaller groups like what Ahli Jinnah did to India. Good, but do not regret your stand later. We just want to make sure your stand is firm so that whatever stand we take should be justified. Think and think again and we need your conformation here as all this threads are being saved for future references.

 

Once again I would like to know your stand and I hope you will let us know.

[Guest guest]

Don't you think this would start something new do divide the Hindus?

<=hindus are already divided.. hinduism does not exists, there's "indian" religions with opposite beliefs

 

Surely not coz if you can think you would no ask any non Vaishnavas not to participated in your thread.

<=this is bad.. very bad

 

here you are saying NARAYAN is the only God whereas we Hindus say all forms belongs to him and only him.

<=also vaishnava think like that, the difference from some "hindus" is that not all the forms coming from the supreme are them selves supreme

 

Now the Muslims say you are a non believer and that you should be killed shall we support them or protect you and your comrades? Be realistic and truthful.

<=do we have to change our beliefs for politic reasons? i do not need to create a false religion to be your friend, or to struggle to demonstrate that everything is the same,,, you are different from me? what's the problem?

 

To us HINDUS we follow the Vedas and respect all forms of the Supreme Brahman

<=i consider to say that narayana/vishnu/krishna come from brahman a blasphemy, because it is like to say that the personality of god is illusory, maya... it is opposite to my concept of god.. so why follow this "hindu" thing?

 

Think and think again and we need your conformation here as all this threads are being saved for future references.

<=yes.. when you will have the government you will not call vaishnavas and eventually you will try to push them out from india like the muslims

[Guest guest]

wat do u expect from me ???

 

for me "Lord Narayana" alone is the supreme god. its my right to select my own sect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maadhav 0]

hinduism is a new name of sanatana dharma.

sanatana dharma includes vaishnavism among other sampradayas.

 

no hindu would ever say:

 

- chaianya was not a hindu

- prabhupada was not a hindu

- HK's are not hindus

 

still HK's keep telling they are not hindus,

not by any logical argument, but because

prabhupada said, "we are not hindus, i am not preaching hinduism."

 

i onlywish he could have said, "i am preaching only one branch of hinduism called vaishnavism or krishna bhakti, and i preach it in its pure form."

 

had has said so, we would not have this problem of disunity in the face of the common enemies.

 

i also understand why he said what he said.

but the HK's do not.

 

Hk's need to preach more in the muslim countries,

pakistan e.g.

 

[Guest guest]

"still HK's keep telling they are not hindus,

not by any logical argument, but because

prabhupada said, "we are not hindus, i am not preaching hinduism.""

 

the success of a disciple is to follow the spiritual master... and it could be enough..

 

but you are not sincere if you say that HK does not know to explain

 

for example i explain it very easily: i am not hindu because under the hinduism there's some conceptions of god who, for a vaishnava are opposite and offensive... adharmic

 

so how can i be in the same religion with people who think differently by me in such fundamental subjects?

 

we are not speaking on some ceremonies, dothi's colour, arati schedules, ekadasi days and so on... we are speaking of important things like to believe that brahman is ultimate and krsna, siva, vishnu, chaitanya are maya... or that krsna is the ultimate truth and his effulgence is the impersonal brahman

 

these conceptions cannot be conciled under one flag... we can live peacefully together but not reunited in the same religion

 

religion means "reunite"... if i want to reunite with something that another things that it is an illusion, what's the use to say that we belongs to the same religion?

 

you cannot put together dogs and cats under the "society of cats"... dogs are not cats...

 

vaishnavas are not advaitins

 

if vaishnavas are hindus, advaitins are not hindus

if advaitins are hindus, vaishnava are not hindus

 

no hate, no wars, much respect and love... but different religion

 

this is an explaination... if you do not recognise it you are not honest, recognise, not to agree..

 

"Hk's need to preach more in the muslim countries,

pakistan e.g."

 

and we are making it without compromises.... and if you were a little more informed you'd know that we are in these countries labelled as hindus, even if we do not like it

 

so your equation: "they do not say to be hindu because they're following blindly" or "they do not say to be hindu to preach to muslims" are lies....

 

why are you offensive? what's the use?is this a right hindu behaviour? respect differences, respect opinions....

.

.

"i onlywish he could have said, "i am preaching only one branch of hinduism called vaishnavism or krishna bhakti, and i preach it in its pure form.""

..if you are a true vaishnava or spiritualist you have to wish to listen pure vaishnavas and masters, not that they say what you feel more close to your political idea

 

respect the masters... you (and me) have not done the 0.00000000000000000000001% of what prabhupada has done for sanatana dharma... so how can we think to conceive any critic?

 

i repeat... respect other's ideas

 

 

[barney 0]

Let me say a few word before you start your HK's concept of belief in Krishna and BG. What came first the vedas or Gita? You do not seem to understand the real concept of God worship. Do you know that as you believe in Krishna who appeared in Dvapara yuga those in the next yuga which will be Satya yuga would belive in Kalki as God. So you concept of only Krishna will deminish. Krishna is only an avathar of the Supereme Bhraman and as we all know the Supreme Brahman has no form but he will take one when necessary and the other form of Gods are all his as our soul too belongs to him and him only.

 

e are not telling you that you should not pray to Krishna or Narayana but you must also reapect other forms of HIS and as all this is under one roof tand hat is HINDUISM or SANATHANA DHARMA as we would like to be reconized. Dividing ourselves will only proof that our religion is a weak religion. If you are adamant in saying that you are not a Hindu and that you will only respect and adhere to Lord Krishna I would advice you to become a Muslim as it is he only religion that says God do not menifest or reincarnate and the is no such think as karma and there is no form for God and idol worship is satanic. So, would you except the concept of Islam and do away with Hiduism? It is your choice and I think you should make up your mind because as I see from your posting I think Islam will fit you best.

[Guest guest]

Krishna is only an avathar of the Supereme Bhraman and as we all know the Supreme Brahman has no form but he will take one when necessary and the other form of Gods are all his as our soul too belongs to him and him only.

••and this is your undemonstrated belief.. nice, free, but dogmatic

 

you must also reapect other forms of HIS

••i respect..... he has no respect who want to say that all is equal without demonstration.. who have said to not respect the manifestations of god, brahman included? you do not respect wanting to do an undiscriminated mix.

 

HINDUISM or SANATHANA DHARMA

••these words do not coincide... because for many people not all theories inside hinduism are dharma, nor sanatana

 

Dividing ourselves will only proof that our religion is a weak religion

••no.. because you feel that variety is a weakness... but this is your problem... if you are a civil human being learn to respect people and to live with them even if they have a different belief from you

 

If you are adamant in saying that you are not a Hindu

••if hindu means "undiscriminated and unjustified mix of opposite beliefs" what's the meaning to be hindu? every cathegory, appartenence, religion, group has common features... where's the common features fo hinduism?

 

and that you will only respect and adhere to Lord Krishna

••i respect every saint, devata, avatara, manifestation of god and so... i have my opinion (given by a school of thought and personal studies and dedication) on who is the supreme.. that's all. Love and respect is for everyone.

 

I would advice you to become a Muslim

••you have a more taliban behaviour that mine, wanting to impose your "all is one", "tato math tato path" theory on others nullifying the variety and difference... very taliban and fanatic

 

as it is he only religion that says God do not menifest or reincarnate and the is no such think as karma and there is no form for God and idol worship is satanic.

••absolutely very far to my concept and to vaishnava concept

 

So, would you except the concept of Islam and do away with Hiduism?

••one has to accept one of two camps or he dies?

 

It is your choice and I think you should make up your mind because as I see from your posting I think Islam will fit you best.

••so wash accurately your eyes... study a little and learn to be more tolerant (=less taliban) with other's beliefs.... i have no difficulty to respect yours even if my idea is opposite

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Why you remain anonymous?

 

Atanu

[Guest guest]

because i am john paul II and i can't say to the world that i practice sanatana dharma

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

This guest who thinks he or she knows it all.

 

Got one track mind,not bad for someone who wonts to get somewhere. (you can have any colour as long as it is black)

 

we are all on different stage of our life with different paths,who am i? where am i going? who is my creator?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

"This guest who thinks he or she knows it all."

 

no.. only defending the freedom to have my beliefs and not to be artificially grouped with people with opposite beliefs

 

this is the discussion, not that i am imposing some idea

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(no.. only defending the freedom to have my beliefs and not to be artificially grouped with people with opposite beliefs)

 

No Hindu will ever stop your beliefs,no one is artificially or oterwise grouping you with anyone. It is your choice.

If you are an Amrican, does that mean all the Amricans are same?

We are all children of God,and have different realization,we all draw our information from Vedas and yet have different views,Hindu recognizes this and tolorates the opposite.My ist deva Is Lord Krishna my brothers is Lord Shiva do i disown him?

 

Re

(this is the discussion, not that i am imposing some idea)

 

sure. you got me fooled

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

 

If HK say we are Hindu's, then how are they going to preach?

 

Krishna is Hindu God, maybe the greatest impediment, in preaching KC Bhakti, get over it.Please.

 

[Guest guest]

If HK say we are Hindu's, then how are they going to preach?

-designation are not important, one can call himself as he want, spirituality, advancement and need of spiritual advices is another thing.. of course also for one who's calling himself hare krishna, vaishnava or whatever

 

Krishna is Hindu God

-krsna is the supreme, supreme (isvarah paramah krsnah, satcitananda vigraha..) cannot be limited by national boundaries... (h)indian, american, french. So god is not christian, muslim, hindu, buddhist.. god is god

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(If HK say we are Hindu's, then how are they going to preach?)

 

First of all Hindus are not stopping HK or anyone else for that matter in their preaching work.

It is sad in order to do preaching work, we have to deny those who has been worshiping Krishna for thousand of years.

 

To Keep the Bhaktivedanta Manor open the whole campaign was fought under the banner of Hindu.the words of Frank Ward still echoes in my mind &#8220;Hare Krishna my brothers and sisters of Hindu Community&#8221;

 

I have a letter recently sent to me signed by temple president Gauridasa I quote

As you may know, Hinduism is the only major religion in the UK to not have a government-funded school. We want to change that and we need your help to do it. We want to create a school that provides the highest levels of material education in science, maths English, technology etc, but at the same time, builds on the values and principles of HINDUISM to create students of outstanding character and behavior. UN quote

 

 

 

Re

(Krishna is Hindu God, maybe the greatest impediment, in preaching KC Bhakti, get over it. Please.)

 

Krishna say those who worship me, are mine and I am theirs.

Your problem is as soon you mention Krishna to outsider; they immediately associate him to be Hindu god

In order to overcome this you have to deny the people who worship him

You have to stress that Krishna is not Hindu god. He is Lord of all one without a second

And this is what Hindu will say Vasudev kutambak, pity you cant see this.

 

A Christian will call you a heathen, Muslim will call you a kafir Hindu will say we are all children of god.

 

Preaching should not be the goal. Practicing Bhakti is, that in it self will inspire others to inquire.

Greatest impediment is our ego.

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

 

 

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

Preaching should not be the goal. Practicing Bhakti is.

 

yes, both should be there, can't have one without the other!

 

Also, in my experience ppls always say Krishna is Hindu God, which is such a great misconception, Iskcon has done a great deal to spread bhakti, I am Hindu myself:), I guess what I am trying to say is, ppls should know you don't have to be Hindu to worship krishna, you just need a soul (which everybody has!!!!) Haribol

[Guest guest]

Dividing ourselves will only proof that our religion is a weak religion

••no.. because you feel that variety is a weakness... but this is your problem... if you are a civil human being learn to respect people and to live with them even if they have a different belief from you..

 

There is nothing wrong with being different, but you have to know when to come together and know we all are the same, you can see what happened with the british "divide and conquer" theory... they divided us and the easily conquered us...united we are strond, divided we are weak.

 

 

[Guest guest]

this is politic

 

religion does not need to be compromised

 

so let us keep the freedom to have different ideas

[barney 0]

A true Hindu is one who has tasted the sweetness of freedom of choice and is wiling to choose death before giving up his freedom. Freedom of choice to follow a path is the basic human right and no one shall tell him/her otherwise. Any Hindu who submits to islam or christianity by marriage of convenience is giving up his rights and virtually giving himself and his future generations to slavery.

 

A Hindu is one that believes in one God who incarnates, as and when He feels fit, in the shape and form He wants. God creates, sustains and destroys when time comes. Many names and forms are given to each with the love and affection of each individual devotee. He has, can and will send us as prophets and saints from time to time, is fully capable of doing so. Our Dharma is eternal, so is God and all the souls. It is our conviction that body dies but not the soul. The old scriptures are a guide to salvation and an individual can steadily make his way back to God in the speed and path selected. Karma (deeds) and results of Karma are the basis of our lives. Knowing that good karma will bring good results and vice versa, our lives can be guided towards fruition of Salvation termed as Moksha. Guru plays a very important part in molding our lives and whilst the Holy book Gita can be accepted as Guru so can the word of Guru Nanak . A Hindu may or may not agree to some of the points above but he will willingly give his fellow human the right to practice religion as and how the other sees fit.

 

[Guest guest]

Vaishnavism is also one of the branch of Hinduism. Hinduism is nothing but a group of faiths. Faith is based on knowledge, bhakti, karma etc. But ultimately teh goal is to reach to Supreme Brahman or in other words realising self. If a person talks about Vishnu is supreme or Shiva is supreme then I will say they are fools. Ofcourse debate and controversies arise in the path of self realisation and the doubts will automatically drops when the Brahman's grace fall on us. So kindly don't enter into the debate, don't limit yourself to a particular thing, name, place etc. Develop openmindedness, love, sacrifice etc. qualities. I have a full trust that one day all these worldy religions like christianity, islam, buddhism etc. will become a branch of Hinduism which shows different paths for self realisation because Hinduism is not based on one belief rather it is group of faiths. Thanks...

[Guest guest]

<-- Freedom of choice to follow a path is the basic human right and no one shall tell him/her otherwise -->

 

yes to follow vaishnavam is basic human freedom. No mayavadi has right to criticize him.

 

<-- A Hindu is one that believes in one God who incarnates, as and when He feels fit, in the shape and form He wants. God creates, sustains and destroys when time comes. -->

 

thats what vaishnavas doing. vaishnavas believe in incarnations of vishnu & worship him as supreme.

 

thinking "Mayadvada / advaitham / shaivam" alone as a path of hinduism is a PURE TALIBANISM/ FANATISM. actually there are more VAISHNAVA SAMPRADAYAS than SAIVA SAMPRADAYAS, so hinduism doesnt belong to "Advaitham/saivam" alone as you are thinking.

 

[Guest guest]

But ultimately teh goal is to reach to Supreme Brahman or in other words realising self.

–you do not respect others who think different, many think that brahman is not the most higher level of divinity

 

If a person talks about Vishnu is supreme or Shiva is supreme then I will say they are fools

-again you do not respect

 

So kindly don't enter into the debate, don't limit yourself to a particular thing, name, place etc.

–for your idea it is a limitation, not for other's, you are not so kind...

 

Develop openmindedness, love, sacrifice etc. qualities

-openmindness means that you respect other's idea and you make a little attempt to understand them

 

I have a full trust that one day all these worldy religions like christianity, islam, buddhism etc. will become a branch of Hinduism which shows different paths for self realisation because Hinduism is not based on one belief rather it is group of faiths. Thanks...

–yes.. a big mix, put inside anything and put a label on the box... what's the use?

[Guest guest]

Jai Ganesh

 

 

(Preaching should not be the goal. Practicing Bhakti is.)

Re

yes, both should be there, can't have one without the other!)

 

 

No prabhu one must practice first, perfect it then preach one should become a shining example for others to follow.

 

Re

(Also, in my experience ppls always say Krishna is Hindu God, which is such a great misconception, Iskcon has done a great deal to spread bhakti, I am Hindu myself:), I guess what I am trying to say is, ppls should know you don't have to be Hindu to worship krishna)

 

 

Whose misconception is it? Are Hindu saying Krishna is our god, and nobody else should worship him?

 

Would it be wrong for Muslims and Christians to identify Hindus as worshipers of Krishna?

 

Would it be wrong for me to say ISKCON worship Krishna?

 

Does this follow from here that now Krishna has become Iskcons God?

 

Krishna is Krishna, he is for everyone he is especially for those who worship him, but that does not mean he becomes any less when others worship him as different.

 

Karma is born out of our desires, our desires are many, and we have gone through a long journey in our pursuit of happiness. Our situation is not come about by any accident. I am what I am due to my karma, if Hindus happens to worship him is due their good karma.

 

Sadhu and saint roam the world bare foot to give their mercy, unfortunately if we reject that then we miss the boat, even then they leave the trail for us to think about it later.

 

Re

(you just need a soul (which everybody has!!!!)

 

I am sorry I am being pedantic here, it is not that we have a soul but we are the soul and we have this body, but I guess you already know this

 

Jai Shree Krishna